Another Nordie thread

[elroy]

Anyone see this programme on BBC2 last night, a play featuring Patrick Kielty based around the 1993 game in Windsor Park and USA 94 from a NI protestant prrspective. Never realised the sectarism at that game was so bad and the other events after (killings during the Italian game etc). But one thing that struck me that I never knew was that night in windsor, it seems the Irish national anthem was not played?? What was the reasoning behind that? I know it was different times but surely if GSTQ can be played in croker, why wasnt ANF played in Windsor?

[OwlsFan]

But one thing that struck me that I never knew was that night in windsor, it seems the Irish national anthem was not played?? What was the reasoning behind that? I know it was different times but surely if GSTQ can be played in croker, why wasnt ANF played in Windsor?

Different times for GSTQ at Croker. Back then you already referred to the atrocities which had been carried out around that time and tension was very high. I dont think GSTQ had been played in the earlier game at Lansdowne. Oh the joy of that Alan McLoughlin goal and Billy Bigot getting his come uppance.

[centre mid]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne. No one had made Charlton aware of this and he stood waiting for the English anthem while everyone else got on with the match. Sad but true.

[paul_oshea]

saw the play, thought it was good, but ask our friends on OWC what they thought, and I think you will get a different view point. It probably was a bit one-sided alright though.

[Gather round]

Anyone see this programme on BBC2 last night, a play featuring Patrick Kielty based around the 1993 game in Windsor Park and USA 94 from a NI protestant prrspective

More like from a 'let's have a superficial dig at NI fans' perspective.

Never realised the sectarism at that game was so bad and the other events after (killings during the Italian game etc)

The play is fictional- the author didn't attend the game. Many fans who DID attend (including some on this forum, and the author's own son) dispute her version of events, whether some songs were actually sung etc. The soundtrack used in the play and PK documentary was not a recording from the match itself.

I wasn't at the game, but I have seen the play (back in the 90s), and watched the documentary the other day.

[gspain]

Away anthems were not played as part of an agreement. Think this has been the case for all games v northern Ireland back to 1978 but could be wrong.

Saw the programme and the play but in 1994 or maybe 1995 - the Dan Gordon version. Was also at the game.

From our perspective the play is fine and actually quite funny. There are the stereotypical drunk Irish fans but they'd probably use this forum against us if we tried taking them to court. The NI fans are up in arms over it and rightly so as the chants such as "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0" are made up.

It was a very tense time in NI. I think the previous month was the worst or certainly one of the worst for murders. The IRA blew up satursay afternoon shoppers on the Shankill and LVF (maybe one of the others if there wa s a difference) gunned down people drinking in a bar at Greysteel. We didn't take any away tickets and very few fans travelled. Tickets were still easy enough to get in advance (August) and when 2 mates pulled out they had trouble giving theirs away

It was very calm and relaxed until 5 minutes before kickoff. I had a radio and was chatting with those around me. England had gone a goal down in San Marino after 8 seconds. However it changed when the pubs emptied just before kickoff. There was plenty of sectarian singing/chanting (the Sash, Billy Boys FTP) but from a vocal minority. Alan Kernaghan got dogs abuse and was really despised. always thought that was unfair as NI turned him down.

I celebrated Alan McLoughlin's goal in the home end without any problems having totally lost it when he scored. There was an "Oh sh1t" moment just before I sat down when I realised I was the only one doing so.

There was a huge over-reaction here. I got back to work at lunchtime the following day and my colleagues were saying "Wow he's alive" and they were only half joking. I think the issue was most non football people expected NI to lie down and let us win 3-0 (this included the 2 guys in the back of my car who ended up taking my mates' tickets). I got asked quite a bit why did they want to win so badly when the game didn't matter to them. Lots of "we supported them in 82 & 86." The same stuff the English say about us and the Scots for example.

Lots of othe rmyths sprung up around that night including one about the FAI officials singing songs about the GAA on the flight home (it was actually Irish fans on the flight home from Lithuania the previous June).

[Gather round]

Re Alan Kernaghan- I can't remember exactly the feeling at the time, but I suspect our fans thought the player himself was to blame for his not turning out for us. When in reality it was the IFA's decision (because he was born eleswhere despite growing up in NI).

A fair summary there by GSpain. Are you going to the Lithuania U-21 game?

[elroy]

Interesting piece gspain. I think its correct that the author of the play was not at the game but that her sons were and she did travel to New York for the Italy game in USA 94.

A thought occured to me when watching it last night, will the same 'agreement' re the anthems apply when the celtic cup takes place and i presume given the 14 years or so that have now passed that the next meeting of the two sides should prove to be alot more amicable.

[Gather round]

The last meeting (in 1999) was more amicable

No idea what they'll do about anthems.

[NeilMcD]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne. No one had made Charlton aware of this and he stood waiting for the English anthem while everyone else got on with the match. Sad but true.

What is the English anthem.

[gspain]

Re Alan Kernaghan- I can't remember exactly the feeling at the time, but I suspect our fans thought the player himself was to blame for his not turning out for us. When in reality it was the IFA's decision (because he was born eleswhere despite growing up in NI).

A fair summary there by GSpain. Are you going to the Lithuania U-21 game?

No not going to Lithuania. Would love to.

Alan Kernaghan's 4 grandparents were from NI. His parents met in England and moved back to Bangor when Alan was 4. He was capped at schools level and wanted to play for NI. At the time the IFA had dispensed with the granny rule. He only approached the FAI after being turned down by the IFA.

He was still seen as a traitor.

[Gather round]

He was still seen as a traitor

Indeed- not our finest hour.

[EalingGreen]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne.

Don't know about England game, but for ROI v NI it was agreed that only the home team's Anthem would be played at each of these WCQ games.
A precedent for this had been set when the two teams met for the first time ever at Senior level, in ECQ games in Sept.78 (0-0 at Lansdowne) and in Nov.79 (1-0 at Windsor).

[paul_oshea]

Did Fifa approve this with written documentation or was it just a known?

EG, thanks for the score it was very relevant to the overall impact of your last sentence.

[geysir]

Apart from Ernie's fantasy of the Greysteel 7 Ireland nil chant going around the ground, the play was quite accurate.
The play did not claim that the few Republic fans were in any physical danger or that there was any physical violence made against them.
Accounts from Northern Nationalists who attended did comment that the Loyalist fever was boiling hotter than usual that night inside Windsor pk.

[EalingGreen]

[QUOTE=OwlsFan;1032420] Oh the joy of that Alan McLoughlin goal and Billy Bigot getting his come uppance.[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to Billy Bingham, then you couldn't be more wrong. I think this comes from the oft-repeated myth that Bingham encouraged the fans in singing sectarian songs at this game. Whilst such songs were sung by a section of the crowd at times, I was at the game and can assure you that he did no such thing. During a period of the game when we were in the ascendancy, he stepped to the side of the pitch to roar on both his own players and the fans. However, I am pretty certain we were singing "One Team in Ireland" at the time.
What people overlook is that this was the very last game of Bingham's 40 year career in football, during which he had got over 50 caps as a player and had managed the team over 100 times. As he said himself, we had been embarrassed 3-0 in the first game in Dublin, so he was extra determined to avoid such a fate this time.
Moreover, some people refer to a spat between him and the (let's face it) volatile and emotional Charlton, where Jack refused to shake his hand at the end of the game. However, I've seen it reported that the disagreement had actually arisen from a row between their two assistants (Nicholl and Setters), so that it was all sorted amicably afterwards, but away from the public gaze, in the Boardroom at Windsor (I think I'm right in saying Big Jack made the presentation to Billy, marking his final game in charge?)

Anyhow, those who castigate Bingham for his supposed "bigotry" can never explain something about the man to me.
Essentially, Bingham's genius as a manager was his ability to get 100% from his players, so that they consistently punched above their weight. Indeed, team spirit and morale was often what made the difference for us between victory and defeat. Yet his teams were also entirely mixed, sometimes even having more Catholics than Protestants, with stalwarts like Jennings, Donaghy, O'Neill, and Armstrong etc gaining hundreds of caps between them. His "main man" and Captain during the Glory Years was Martin O'Neill - hardly your average "Uncle Tom"! Moreover, Bingham managed the team during some of the worst years of the Troubles, when tensions were extremely high.
Indeed, the scorer of the NI goal that night was (Catholic) Jimmy Quinn, who celebrated the goal as joyously as any home fan. Yet although I can't find the exact source just now, I remember reading an interview with Quinn where he recounted that despite his family having been forced to move out of their home in (Protestant) Rathcoole when he was a lad, eventually moving to England, he was always immensely proud to come back years later and represent "his country".
Does anyone seriously consider that any manager could have engendered such an obviously "together" team spirit if he were also a bigot?

And by the way, Protestant bigots don't tend to extend the honour of being Best Man at their wedding to GAA-playing Catholics from Beechmount, either. But I've no doubt his very good friend, Gerry Armstrong, was delighted to accept...

P.S. I appreciate the danger that such my post is liable to drag what is already a potentially controversial thread down an alley which the Mods won't like. But Bingham is one of my footballing heroes and I absolutely detest it when people gratuitously libel the great man entirely without justification.

[EalingGreen]

Did Fifa approve this with written documentation or was it just a known?

Since it is (now, at least) a mandatory requirement by FIFA for both Anthems to be played before competitive games, I imagine the two Associations got a dispensation.

EG, thanks for the score it was very relevant to the overall impact of your last sentence.

All part of the service.

[Wolfie]

Don't know about England game, but for ROI v NI it was agreed that only the home team's Anthem would be played at each of these WCQ games.
A precedent for this had been set when the two teams met for the first time ever at Senior level, in ECQ games in Sept.78 (0-0 at Lansdowne) and in Nov.79 (1-0 at Windsor).

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

[Gather round]

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

Or the most recent (RoI 0-1 NI) game?

[Wolfie]

Or the most recent (RoI 0-1 NI) game?

Oh yeah - forgot about that insignificant friendly as opposed to the drubbings we handed out in actual qualifiers