Unemployment

[GavinZac]

Sitepoint 'for hire'
http://marketplace.sitepoint.com/categories/looking-to-hire

99Designs 'design contests' (with sometimes large cash prizes)
http://99designs.com/

[pete]

Government cuts welfare fraud (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0722/1216627319929.html)



Minister for Social and Family Affairs Mary Hanafin yesterday announced that dole payments now have to be collected by recipients at their local post office on a weekly basis, instead of being transferred directly into their bank accounts.

The Department of Social and Family Affairs has suspected for months that significant numbers, particularly workers who have lost construction jobs, have exploited the loophole by claiming benefit here, and then leaving to find work abroad.

Can't see why any one would object to this. If you entitled to payments you will still get them. Very strange that this only applied to new applicants as if fraud only undertaken by new people.

Government alleging 10% fraud is a huge number. If fraud is undertaken by Irish residents they should be pursued by the State.

[OneRedArmy]

Government cuts welfare fraud (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0722/1216627319929.html)



Can't see why any one would object to this. If you entitled to payments you will still get them. Very strange that this only applied to new applicants as if fraud only undertaken by new people.

Government alleging 10% fraud is a huge number. If fraud is undertaken by Irish residents they should be pursued by the State.Good step IMHO.

Apparently was being abused by both Irish working abroad and non-Irish residents not currently resident in the State.

[mypost]

Good step IMHO.

Bad step.

To qualify for unemployment benefit, it requires rigorous background checks. It's extremely tedious and bureaucratic. Now, it's going to get even more so by going back to the 19th-century system of the pen and paper in order to collect payment. With ever increasing numbers on the register, it's going to turn PO's into no-go areas for the wider public on payday.

It won't affect those who currently receive it.

[OneRedArmy]

Bad step.

To qualify for unemployment benefit, it requires rigorous background checks. It's extremely tedious and bureaucratic. Now, it's going to get even more so by going back to the 19th-century system of the pen and paper in order to collect payment. With ever increasing numbers on the register, it's going to turn PO's into no-go areas for the wider public on payday.

It won't affect those who currently receive it.Do you agree that foreign nationals who return home and Irish nationals who are working abroad aren't eligible for benefit?

If so, how do you enforce this without getting them to present in person?:confused:

[Macy]

I don't have a problem with it tbh - it's only going in and getting a book stamped and collect your money ffs mypost. I'm sure paying it direct was hailed as one of those great modernisations by the Government at the time - they've effectively enabled the fraud, aren't going to tackle it for existing claimants and now they're claiming this as a positive move! :rolleyes: Show's how little they cared about where the boom money was going that they weren't arsed about the fraud then...

[pete]

To qualify for unemployment benefit, it requires rigorous background checks. It's extremely tedious and bureaucratic. Now, it's going to get even more so by going back to the 19th-century system of the pen and paper in order to collect payment. With ever increasing numbers on the register, it's going to turn PO's into no-go areas for the wider public on payday.


Would love to know what those rigorous background checks are? AFAIK once they see you not officially employed (pay taxes) & they check your PRSI details you get your money.

No go areas just because a few people go into the PO to collect money?
\


It won't affect those who currently receive it.

This I do not understand as it is like saying fraud is a new thing.

A spokesperson for the unemployed (i forget the name of the group) criticised the move saying it was "only" 10% fraud. :rolleyes:

[monutdfc]

Why not simply require people to sign-on weekly instead of monthly?
It would have the same effect but people could still get the money into their bank accounts and the post offices wouldn't become really busy. Sounds like the department want the PO to do their job.

[mypost]

I don't have a problem with it tbh - it's only going in and getting a book stamped and collect your money ffs mypost.

Queues in the Welfare offices are now 30-40 minutes long, and all you have to do is produce your id card/passport and sign the form. Next up is the sight outside hundreds of PO's around Ireland of people standing in the rain, further punished because of a few fraudsters around. :rolleyes::mad:

[Lionel Ritchie]

Queues in the Welfare offices are now 30-40 minutes long, and all you have to do is produce your id card/passport and sign the form. Next up is the sight outside hundreds of PO's around Ireland of people standing in the rain, further punished because of a few fraudsters around. :rolleyes::mad:
...probably cheaper to issue complimentary umbrellas than to carry the few fraudsters.

[GavinZac]

Queues in the Welfare offices are now 30-40 minutes long, and all you have to do is produce your id card/passport and sign the form. Next up is the sight outside hundreds of PO's around Ireland of people standing in the rain, further punished because of a few fraudsters around. :rolleyes::mad:

a few? you think 10% is a few?

This country needs its resources now more than ever. If unemployed people have to spent another half hour waiting out of their no doubt hectic schedule waiting for the dole in order to reduce the sort of inefficiency that gave the world "the Irish way of doing things" then so be it; I'd gladly join them.

[mypost]

Even under the old PO system, there were fraudsters. 90% of receipients are genuine.

As usual, it's the poorest in the pecking order who are the first to feel the effects of another paranoid panic measure by a government unwilling to tackle more important projects. :mad:

[OneRedArmy]

Even under the old PO system, there were fraudsters. 90% of receipients are genuine.

As usual, it's the poorest in the pecking order who are the first to feel the effects of another paranoid panic measure by a government unwilling to tackle more important projects. :mad:The poor generally don't have bank accounts.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant...

Also 10% fraud rate is huge.

[GavinZac]

Even under the old PO system, there were fraudsters. 90% of receipients are genuine.If i said to you, "90% of public hospital patients are being treated properly" I'm sure you'd realise what a large amount 10% is.

As usual, it's the poorest in the pecking order who are the first to feel the effects of another paranoid panic measureWe'll be grand.

[mypost]

If i said to you, "90% of public hospital patients are being treated properly" I'm sure you'd realise what a large amount 10% is.

90% of that, is considerably higher than the numbers treated properly at the moment. :o

[pete]

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks 10% fraud is huge. Tightening the system won't deprive anyone who is entitled to the money. Any one caught defrauding the state should be made pay back the money by doing community service or similar.

[Dodge]

Queues in the Welfare offices are now 30-40 minutes long, and all you have to do is produce your id card/passport and sign the form. Next up is the sight outside hundreds of PO's around Ireland of people standing in the rain, further punished because of a few fraudsters around. :rolleyes::mad:

The bank system is fairly new, and a few years ago (with far great unemployment than now) there were no major queues in post offices. Unlike the social welfare office, there is no set time and can be picked up at any time during that week.

[Sheridan]

Where I come from there's still relatively high unemployment and most unemployed people seem to collect their dole at the post office. No great queues that I've noticed, it only becomes a no-go on the first Tuesday of the month (Childrens' Allowance day.) In effect, people are signing on every week by signing for their money at the PO.

[cheifo]

I would assume a lot of Fraudstars would prefer not to hand over ac details/access to their bank accounts to welfare.
Legally can Welfare use a/c details to keep check on activity in claimants account?
I seem to remember someone from the Gov admitting a couple of years ago, that because the money from Welfare payments tended to be spent locally,
the country doesn't lose out, because we of course get it back on VAT anyway.
If this is the case then the rise in fraudstars who live abroad must have prompted them to change the system.

[GavinZac]

I would assume a lot of Fraudstars would prefer not to hand over ac details/access to their bank accounts to welfare.
Legally can Welfare use a/c details to keep check on activity in claimants account?
I seem to remember someone from the Gov admitting a couple of years ago, that because the money from Welfare payments tended to be spent locally,
the country doesn't lose out, because we of course get it back on VAT anyway.
If this is the case then the rise in fraudstars who live abroad must have prompted them to change the system.

So we get back 20% of 10%? Besides, welfare payments are supposed to be spent on non-taxed or low-taxed essentials.

[Macy]

Besides, welfare payments are supposed to be spent on non-taxed or low-taxed essentials.
I don't buy the argument about getting it back, but i think it's VAT that's not supposed to be on essentials is where the issue is.


Queues in the Welfare offices are now 30-40 minutes long, and all you have to do is produce your id card/passport and sign the form. Next up is the sight outside hundreds of PO's around Ireland of people standing in the rain, further punished because of a few fraudsters around.
But they're not being made sign on every week - that isn't changing, they're being made collect their money every week. I doubt too many Post Offices are that busy that they can't handle the extra. Infact it could save a valuable community resource in many areas! We get childrens allowance, and I'd have no problem having to collect it every month - yes it's handier paid directly into the account, but it would only be a few minutes a month to collect it.

My main issue with this proposal was that it was FF that introduced the direct into the bank account as a great efficiency in the first place, and now their trying to say their great for clamping down on the fraud that it enabled.

[GavinZac]

Probably a good excuse to keep some POs open as people have been clamouring for.

[pete]

I seem to remember someone from the Gov admitting a couple of years ago, that because the money from Welfare payments tended to be spent locally, the country doesn't lose out, because we of course get it back on VAT anyway. If this is the case then the rise in fraudstars who live abroad must have prompted them to change the system.

If someone in government said this hopefully they still not there. Fraud is ok as long as not foreigners?

Free money for everyone as long as they live in the country?

IMO there should be no fraud as that is what the Department are there for. If they can't police a simple system no need for the staff.

[Macy]

IMO there should be no fraud as that is what the Department are there for. If they can't police a simple system no need for the staff.
It's the ministers that have the power to implement and make decisions, such as beefing up the investigation unit with staff and power. Can hardly blame the staff at the bottom. There's a reason all politicians like Yes Minister - not because it's true, it's because people think it's true and it lets them off the hook.

[John83]

So we get back 20% of 10%? Besides, welfare payments are supposed to be spent on non-taxed or low-taxed essentials.
Food and rent are taxed last time I checked.

[GavinZac]

Food and rent are taxed last time I checked.
But they don't pay for rent out of dole money. They pay for rent out of rent allowance...

[John83]

But they don't pay for rent out of dole money. They pay for rent out of rent allowance...
I'm unfamiliar with the subdivisions of welfare payments, but regardless, I think most of the things you'd spend the dole on are taxed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[monutdfc]

and they pay the rent allowances to landlords who have a raft of Section 23 properties so the landlord isn't paying income tax on this rental income!

[KianD]

Food and rent are taxed last time I checked.

Food essentials are zero rated.

[John83]

Food essentials are zero rated.
I was just looking up those rates. I'm surprised actually. I thought the VAT rates were much less detailed than they are.

[pete]

Food essentials are zero rated.

However if you are fraudulently getting the dole you already have another unofficial untaxed revenue source so you probably spending the dole money on caviar & champagne which have taxes. As long as the state gets some of it back thats the important thing though...

[mypost]

you already have another unofficial untaxed revenue source so you probably spending the dole money on caviar & champagne

More along the lines of spending it on Cola (Tesco).

[GavinZac]

More along the lines of spending it on Cola (Tesco).
Defending dole fraudsters now?

[pete]

Latest figures out (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0730/breaking35.htm)



The rise in the number of people claiming unemployment benefits over the last year has increased at the fastest rate since records began over 40 years ago.

In July, 10,600 people joined the Live Register bringing the seasonally adjusted total signing on to 226,000, on a seasonally adjusted basis, according to figures released by the Central Statistics Office this morning.

Last month’s increase lifted the standardised unemployment rate to 5.9 per cent, the CSO said.

Over the last 12 months the number of people seeking unemployment benefits has risen by over a third with 63,647 people joining the register.

In July 6,700 males and 3,800 females joined the register.


Is there a seasonal reason why so many more women joining the live register?

[Dodge]

Is there a seasonal reason why so many more women joining the live register?

Loads of women have jobs associated with schools. (Lollipop ladies, teaching assitants etc etc) Mrs Dodge-in-law is a lollipop lady and she signs on during the summer months after she's effectively made redundent after each school term.

[mypost]

You can add another 500 (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0820/jobs.html) odd to the register in 2 weeks time. :o

[Reality Bites]

Looking increasingly bleak, I beleve it is now nearly impossible to get a construction related job, Profession or Trade -what a change fro two years ago!

[Aldini98]

Bring on the recession. Best time to be a P&P civil servant.

[Reality Bites]

Bring on the recession. Best time to be a P&P civil servant.

Fatso is back from Hols, everybody knows he should scrap the paytalks but then again everybody also knows he is a gutless biffo pandering to the civil servants, I hate him Lenihan and Bog Woman.

[pete]

Fatso is back from Hols, everybody knows he should scrap the paytalks but then again everybody also knows he is a gutless biffo pandering to the civil servants, I hate him Lenihan and Bog Woman.

I don't see how he can give pay increases at the numbers mentioned by the unions unless they are going to significantly increase borrowing which the government seem to be slow to do so far. Maybe they will save enough with monochrome printing?

[mypost]

Latest figures out on Friday morning, the 250k mark will be smashed. At current rates, and the 6 weeks since the last released figures, you're probably looking at anything from 20-25k signing on during August.

[Pauro 76]

Those are depressing figures. Any thoughts I had of moving home are well and truly up the spout now.

[Macy]

Those are depressing figures. Any thoughts I had of moving home are well and truly up the spout now.
It still depends on the sector you're looking to move into Pauro.

[pete]

It still depends on the sector you're looking to move into Pauro.

True. As long as you not in anything related to construction will be no worse in Ireland than anywhere else. Rising interest rates affect all business in all the EU as makes all debt more expensive.

[mypost]

The job losses are across the board, in all sectors. Cappoquin Chickens went up the creek yesterday, they're not involved in construction. Hibernian Insurance shed 800 jobs in the summer, they're also not involved in construction. Dell have taken a hit too. Every sector is affected.

[Macy]

The job losses are across the board, in all sectors.
Yes, but some sectors are suffering more than others. Hibernian are oursourcing to India - hopefully the customers give them the kicking they deserve come renewal time.

[mypost]

Only 9k of an increase last month, but:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0903/cso.html

The number of people receiving unemployment related benefits rose by 73,200 in the 12 months to the end of August.

According to the Central Statistics Office, this is the largest annual increase in unemployment ever recorded in this country.

It brings the rate of unemployment up to 6.1% - the highest for ten years.

More than two thirds of the increase in unemployment was accounted for by men and a quarter of the total rise in unemployment was accounted for people under the age of 25.

This is the fourth consecutive month during which the annual rise in unemployment has hit a new record.

The total numbers on the dole now stands at 247,384, the highest for ten years.

[OneRedArmy]

And unfortunately it looks almost certain that its going to continue to climb further.

Two possible rays of hope (very, very thin rays mind):
1) Oil price falling back which should impact inflation growth
2) Other Eurozone economies slowing dramatically which may force ECB to consider moving to a rate reduction bias

It will be interesting to finally see the Govt's response to the worsening economic situation (which they have been working on, allegedly all summer). I expect to be thoroughly disappointed.

[dahamsta]

It's not as bad as we thought. It's worse...


Irish Examiner (http://examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=72878-qqqx=1.asp): THE scale of unemployment is far worse than official figures show because another 38,000 people are stuck in a backlog waiting for their dole claims to be processed, the Irish Examiner has learned.

[pete]

Is that an extra backlog over & above normal waiting times?