Champions League thread

[shakermaker1982]

Is that messi who was at fault for Scholes goal at Old Trafford but no mentioned by any of the RTE pundits. Messis is a great player no doubt but 42 goals this season. A goal in the Champions league final and quarter final and last 16. He was the best player this season in the world. Also he did get quality crosses in, one was to Tevez head and another were into very dangerous areas but there did not happen to be a player making the correct run.

Neil - don't try and reason with em. I've been trying for weeks to point out that Ronaldo isn't a 1 trick pony/crap/bottle job/choker but you just cannot win with Liverpool supporters. They are the Eamon Dunphy's of foot.ie

[Roadend]

Watch the goal again and you will see that at one Stage that Scholes and messi are level but Messi Stos running and he lets Scholes goal who gambles and goes into a clever space and the ball drops to him and he scores. Messi did not anticipate this. He was at fault and so was Zambrotta who was more so at fault. Simple as that.

Zambrotta was at fault an nobody else, to even try to somehow say Messi was to blame is farcical. Zambrotta was in control of the ball and need only have knocked it back to Valdes to clear it, Messi had no need to track Scoles back. Zambrotta inexplicably played a blind clearence, a ball that nobody at any level of the game should be attempting. Sorry mate but you are so worng on this one its not even funny.

[NeilMcD]

Sorry mate you are wrong. Part of being a footballer is sensing danger and you should track the run even if youi think Zambrotta is going to hit it back to the keeper. Messi was lazy for not trackign Scholes run as he was with him and he let him go. You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't. Even if Zambrotta puts the ball back to Valdes a good coach will have word with Mess and say, do not let that happen again.

Zambrotta was the main culprit but Messi should have covered the run. He idea that you have no need to track someone back shows your lack of knowledge of the game I am afraid. There is always a need to track a runner of a player who is dangerous and is about to go unmarked to the edge of the penalty area.

[Block G Raptor]

You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't.

What, Like Michael Carrick for Lampards Goal last night ?

[NeilMcD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrEAL_8RMo


Here you go this confirms it and added to that is Pleats comment too.

[NeilMcD]

What, Like Michael Carrick for Lampards Goal last night ?

Yeah Carrick was at fault for that. Carrick was poor last night I though. Not a great player at all and not even in the same league as Messi or Ronaldo or Scholes. I am not sure what your point is. Carrick is a Spurs player, thats his level in my view.

[Roadend]

Hahahahaha, you're funny if nothing else. Messi should be sensing Zambrotta's mistake playing a ball a fella would be coached all his life not to play. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Stick to FM of FIFA or whatever is you get your football knowledge from.

[NeilMcD]

From actually playing football sorry and listening to coaches who always say expect the unexpected. Messi should cover the run for Scholes for no other reason that a player should not be free on the edge of the box. THat is what you do as a footballer. You track runs of unrushing midfielders. Carrick did not do it last night and he got punished for it. If the shot had not taken the deflections it ma have drifted wide. However a good coach will still spot it and call Carrick over after the game and say, you got away with that one. THe same in this incident. Tracking of run is an integral part of the game and if you fail to do it, most of the time you may get away with it but sometimes it gets punished in the most unlikely way, Messi was punished for it. Simple as that.

[paul_oshea]

has anyone seen the JT stuff going around? its class.

[Roadend]

And coaches tell you play it the way you are facing which Zambrotta did not do, I can't even believe this is a point of contention. Zambrotta F'ed up big time, that's all there is to it.

Also I don't know why you are comparing the Carrick situation to the Messi one, Barca were in possession for the Scholes goal, Chelsea were in possession for the Chelsea goal, different situations.

[NeilMcD]

And coaches tell you play it the way you are facing which Zambrotta did not do, I can't even believe this is a point of contention. Zambrotta F'ed up big time, that's all there is to it.

You seem to be missing the point. I never said that Zambrotta was not at fault but I am not sure ifyou can handle this but you can have more than one culprit in a goal. You have the main culprit who was Zambrotta and you also have Messi who was not doing his job. Now try to think aabout that and maybe your brain will not explode but Messi was also at faullt but to a lesser extent.

I hope you are not coaching any team of note cause your way of looking at football in a binary manner is rather simplistic and lacking any sort of nuance.

[Billsthoughts]

Sorry mate you are wrong. Part of being a footballer is sensing danger and you should track the run even if youi think Zambrotta is going to hit it back to the keeper. Messi was lazy for not trackign Scholes run as he was with him and he let him go. You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't. Even if Zambrotta puts the ball back to Valdes a good coach will have word with Mess and say, do not let that happen again.

Zambrotta was the main culprit but Messi should have covered the run. He idea that you have no need to track someone back shows your lack of knowledge of the game I am afraid. There is always a need to track a runner of a player who is dangerous and is about to go unmarked to the edge of the penalty area.
Totally disagree. Messi is there as an attacking player he is supposed to anticipate attacking breaks and put himself in a position to capitalise on any little chance. He is arguably giving himself a few yards on scholes in the event of a counter attack. Whcih would have been the case if Zanbrottas brain hadnt gone awol. Its simplistic views like yours (everyone has to track back full stop) which does my head in.

[Roadend]

You seem to be missing the point. I never said that Zambrotta was not at fault but I am not sure ifyou can handle this but you can have more than one culprit in a goal. You have the main culprit who was Zambrotta and you also have Messi who was not doing his job. Now try to think aabout that and maybe your brain will not explode but Messi was also at faullt but to a lesser extent.

I hope you are not coaching any team of note cause your way of looking at football in a binary manner is rather simplistic and lacking any sort of nuance.

Messi's job is not to track back when Barca are in posession and on the verge of a counter attack, my god man, what sort of football tactics do you follow.

[Closed Account 2]

Zambrotta was at fault an nobody else, to even try to somehow say Messi was to blame is farcical. Zambrotta was in control of the ball and need only have knocked it back to Valdes to clear it, Messi had no need to track Scoles back. Zambrotta inexplicably played a blind clearence, a ball that nobody at any level of the game should be attempting. Sorry mate but you are so worng on this one its not even funny.

I agree, and the way Barca played Messi couldn't afford to track back. They needed him in the middle of the park otherwise they would have had no outlet from defence.

If he was tracking back on Scholes all game then Barca would have had no attacking intent and would have retreated into a shell and had no chance of scoring. The bottom line is Zambrotta is not an effective defender, he is one of Barca's many weak links and even if he moves to Milan his career is on the slide.

The notion that Messi should be tracking back belongs in the Walter Smith school of football dourness. Barca are not the sort of team who play with 2 banks of 4 in their own box to try and get a match on penalties.

[NeilMcD]

Messi's job is not to track back when Barca are in posession and on the verge of a counter attack, my god man, what sort of football tactics do you follow.

Its called working hard no matter who you are and my view is that if it was Ronaldo the RTE panel would have gone on and on about it. Look at it again. Scholes runs past Messi and Messi just lets him drift into the danger area. That should have been tracked simple as that. What it then means is not matter what Zambrotta does, Scholes is covered and his chance to shoot is blocked and no goal.

[NeilMcD]

Totally disagree. Messi is there as an attacking player he is supposed to anticipate attacking breaks and put himself in a position to capitalise on any little chance. He is arguably giving himself a few yards on scholes in the event of a counter attack. Whcih would have been the case if Zanbrottas brain hadnt gone awol. Its simplistic views like yours (everyone has to track back full stop) which does my head in.

I think your view is simplistic. Sorry for doing your head I am sure you will get over it though.

[boovidge]

says it all really :rolleyes:

[gaiscíoch]

Neil Mc D. I think your right in what your saying. Michael Carrick has done that on several occassions this season alone. Tracking a man is the kind of thing you are thought as a 15 year old and if you don't do you will pay the price. United payed the price last night. Carrick is a defensive midfielder the least I'd expect from him is to follow the runners. Basic football for a professional player.

How can Edmundo say that Barca use Messi to link the attacks through the middle? Last time I looked it was Xavi and Deco who done that. Zambrotta was completely at fault Scholes was cutting off his options in the middle not expecting to get the ball. He got and now Man U are Champions of Europe.....

[Billsthoughts]

I think your view is simplistic. Sorry for doing your head I am sure you will get over it though.

yeah neil. your wrong but keep digging. what standard of football do you play at?

[John83]

has anyone seen the JT stuff going around? its class.
Nope. Got a link?

[ken foree]

agree with neil mcd, even if messi is coached to hold a higher position and those are his natural instincts, there's no doubt he was simply wrong in his ball-watching because... scholes waltzed onward untouched and scored. a goal. in messi's team's net. if messi had even made an effort to put pressure on from behind, it might've been enough for scholes to screw it wide. as it was he was in acres of space. result: man. united midfielder scores goal - partial cause: barcelona's midfield did not stop him from doing so. this isn't difficult to understand, surely?

[WoodquayBoy]

For god's sake, the way people are going on about him, you'd think he was the first person who's ever had a parent die
Exactly. I think JT lost his Dad recently, as did Ronaldo, and you don't see them faffing about.
I mean, okay, the man lost his mother, but time to move on now

[Billsthoughts]

Exactly. I think JT lost his Dad recently, as did Ronaldo, and you don't see them faffing about.
I mean, okay, the man lost his mother, but time to move on now

bit cold....she died when he was coming to end of season and had to play a few very big games. so he makes a few gestures when he scores. so what. whatever gets him thru.

[stojkovic]

Actually, I was just thinking of other players sent off in finals, and of course Zidane suddenly popped in to my head. As much as Drogba is a cheating **** and Zidane was generally loved for his ability on the pitch, nobody seems to be sypathising with Drogba today - everyone seems to agree that he got what his reputation deserved - but after the '06 World Cup Final there seemed to be a lot of good will towards ZZ. Now, as I said, there's no doubt that Drogba is a total cokc but Zidane's actions were far worse than Drogba's (IMO).

Did you know that Zidane was sent off (14) more times than Roy Keane. He also head-butted people a number of times.

Who gets the bad rep.

[joe_barry80]

Just read on Wikipedia that the Final in 2010 will be held on a Saturday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

[rambler14]

Just read on Wikipedia that the Final in 2010 will be held on a Saturday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

Platini's plan to make the final more family friendly.

[Morbo]

Very harsh on Terry. The man had the guts to step up to the mark. I'm sure there are better peno takers but I'd say half of them were crying 'cramp' or some other sh*te.

A bit harsh maybe but If Kalou or Anelka(I know he missed too but was still the more logical choice) were willing to take the pen then it definitely should have been one of them before Terry, if they chickened out then fair enough but I think its more likely Terry just wanted to be the hero and he would have received the plaudits for his bravery had he scored so its only fair that his punishment for missing should be to endure all the jokes at his expense otherwise its just a no lose situation if we don´t laugh at the penalty bottlers.
BTW Ronaldo is one lucky boy as his penalty miss is likely to be forgotten now, had Terry scored he would have been labeled a bottler for life.

[rambler14]

I was half tempted today to go into a sports shop and buy a Man United jersey and put "Terry 26" on the back!:D:D:D

[bennocelt]

For me Vidic was man of the match a super performance, I also taught Joe Cole played very well.

But despite all of that extra time and penalties was comedy gold to see Drogba (diving cheating knacker) sent off and his reaction after was priceless and I had a good laugh at that. Let alone the fact that he raised his hand to bitch slap Vidic, he ran from the halfway line to get involved and that alone warrants a yellow card IMO.

Also for Mr. Chelsea (as he is called) to slip while taking the peno, I thoroughly enjoyed that one. Here is a "man" who is nothing more than a bully, he interferes in every decision a referee gives during a game and to see him crying like a baby last night one word Mr,. Terry Karma!!!

Finally, the ref was poor in that he let players from both teams surround him and hassle him to book players of send them off. UEFA/FIFA have to move on this now and make it so only the captain can talk to the ref and not half the team

def agree here 100%:)
started the game hoping for a chelsea win, as it would be funny to hear Alex Ferg moaning today if they lost and football is mostly rubbish these days so a team like chelsea would set the standard.
But what a game, and totally changed to supporting manure Utd as Chelsea played very cynical football, were arguing with the ref a million times and were play acting all the time.
John Terry. delighted for him, ****. Whta kind of captain is he that cant control his players.
The ref was very weak, but at least he did send Drogba off which for me was a highlight of the game
And my MOTM was Vidic. What a man mountain

[WoodquayBoy]

bit cold....she died when he was coming to end of season and had to play a few very big games. so he makes a few gestures when he scores. so what. whatever gets him thru.
So he deserves greater sympathy because of the timing of his mother's death? Now who is being a bit cold

[oldyouth]

A bit harsh maybe but If Kalou or Anelka(I know he missed too but was still the more logical choice) were willing to take the pen then it definitely should have been one of them before Terry, if they chickened out then fair enough but I think its more likely Terry just wanted to be the hero and he would have received the plaudits for his bravery had he scored so its only fair that his punishment for missing should be to endure all the jokes at his expense otherwise its just a no lose situation if we don´t laugh at the penalty bottlers.
BTW Ronaldo is one lucky boy as his penalty miss is likely to be forgotten now, had Terry scored he would have been labeled a bottler for life.
That's the whole point. Terry is now officially on record as having missed a penalty kick. Everyone else who didn't is down in the pure speculation 'perhaps if' category.
I don't think Chelsea are a good footballing side, but John Terry is a good footballing person

[hoops1]

def agree here 100%:)
football is mostly rubbish these days so a team like chelsea would set the standard.


agree.What is going wrong?

[Closed Account 2]

How can Edmundo say that Barca use Messi to link the attacks through the middle?

In my opinion, when Barca are not in possesion, he should be in the middle of the park (halfway line area) with a view to getting the ball and running at the opposition (i.e. running into their half).

[Billsthoughts]

So he deserves greater sympathy because of the timing of his mother's death? Now who is being a bit cold

What are ya on about?
:rolleyes:

[jebus]

Man Utd lording it over Chelsea about winning the European Cup is akin to Pepsi crowing about having greater profits than Coca Cola

[Roadend]

agree with neil mcd, even if messi is coached to hold a higher position and those are his natural instincts, there's no doubt he was simply wrong in his ball-watching because... scholes waltzed onward untouched and scored. a goal. in messi's team's net. if messi had even made an effort to put pressure on from behind, it might've been enough for scholes to screw it wide. as it was he was in acres of space. result: man. united midfielder scores goal - partial cause: barcelona's midfield did not stop him from doing so. this isn't difficult to understand, surely?

It was one touch and hit from Scholes after a ball that should have never been attempted. Zambrotta's team mates ahd every right to expect he wouldn't play such a ball, espeically as a) you're coached throughout your life to 1, play the way you are facing, and 2 not play it across your box at the back, both of which Zambrotta did. and b) the keeper was open for a simple ball to be laid back to him. Arguing that Messi should have expected all football logic to be thrown out the window in one moment of madness from Zambrotta is just being argumentative for the sake of it.

[Roadend]

Man Utd lording it over Chelsea about winning the European Cup is akin to Pepsi crowing about having greater profits than Coca Cola

But Pepsi are smaller than coke.......;)

[shakermaker1982]

Has anybody seen the clips and pictures of Terry spitting/snorting at Tevez? What a grade A scumbag.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/23/sfnfro223.xml

[NeilMcD]

Not really conclusive proof and I think Terry is a scumbag.

[shakermaker1982]

If I remember correctly I think you see Tevez wiping side of his face/neck. Frank Rijkaard at the 1990 WC is in a league of it's own though....how Voller restrained himself I'll never know.

[micls]

From actually playing football sorry and listening to coaches who always say expect the unexpected. Messi should cover the run for Scholes for no other reason that a player should not be free on the edge of the box. THat is what you do as a footballer. You track runs of unrushing midfielders. Carrick did not do it last night and he got punished for it. If the shot had not taken the deflections it ma have drifted wide. However a good coach will still spot it and call Carrick over after the game and say, you got away with that one. THe same in this incident. Tracking of run is an integral part of the game and if you fail to do it, most of the time you may get away with it but sometimes it gets punished in the most unlikely way, Messi was punished for it. Simple as that.

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake

[drinkfeckarse]

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake


Spot on.

[lionelhutz]

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake

Couldn't agree more. If Zambrotta had played it to a team mate - which he would do 99 times out of a 100 - Barca would have been on the break and Messi would be free in space. If Messi ended up scoring, would you blame Scholes for not tracking him?? By NeilMcD's reasoning, he would be at blame.

And to compare it to Carrick not tracking Lampards run is complete stupidity. As was already stated, Chelsea were in possession and attacking when Lampard made his run while Barca were in possession for Scholes goal.

Yes Neil I think we all know there can be more than one person at fault for a goal, but not this time when its such a blatant mistake by one man

[WoodquayBoy]

I don't think Chelsea are a good footballing side, but John Terry is a good footballing person
Think you hold a minority view there
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/23/chelsea.championsleague0708

Check the youtube links to the spitting incident. Now, still a nice bloke?

[ken foree]

the pro-messi arguments here contain a lot of "ifs", "should'ves", and "gambling percentages" - those don't matter, when the ball is moved to scholes, the game has changed from that other reality where zambrotta passes it calmly back to his keeper, and the new reality of scholes running free and scoring begins to take shape. messi stopped playing, he - by your definition - gambled incorrectly. just replace him with stephen ireland and you'll see what i mean. ;)

[micls]

gambled incorrectly.

Of course he did. But givent that its a gamble its not going to come off every time. However if it comes off more times than it doesnt, which most would agree it would(i.e. Zambrotta wouldnt screw up the clearance) then its the right choice overall.

He's not psychic. It would be a different scenario if United had had the ball.

[cartman]

neil mcd , going by your reckoning on the scholes goal - messi should be tracking scholes while his own team have the ball...
so at the exact same time in the same game were the likes of eto tracking ferdinand in case he broke forward even though barcelona had the ball!!
the whole point being, why in the name of god would you be tracking an opposition player when your own team have the ball??? its just plain ridiculous really..
also the fact that its barcelona who have the ball [1 of the best teams at retaining possession in the game] in this situation makes your reasoning just foolish..
you have some balls to be questioning other peoples knowledge of the game on here after stupid comments like these

[superfrank]

Wednesday night was heartbreaking.

John Terry has taken, and scored, penalties before in the league when Lampard hasn't taken them so I wasn't surprised he went up to take one.

I thought it was a pretty good match. Fair play to Man U, they held on.

Irrelevant but will Fergie be banned for going up to the ref at half-time. He was waiting for the ref at the tunnel like a primary school bully. He is disgraceful.

I won't defend Drogba or Terry but surely Hargreaves should have been sent off for pushing the ref in the big melee.

[Roadend]

the pro-messi arguments here contain a lot of "ifs", "should'ves", and "gambling percentages" - those don't matter, when the ball is moved to scholes, the game has changed from that other reality where zambrotta passes it calmly back to his keeper,and the new reality of scholes running free and scoring begins to take shape. messi stopped playing, he - by your definition - gambled incorrectly. just replace him with stephen ireland and you'll see what i mean. ;)

Unlike the if messi had tracked back he should've stopped scholes etc? Completely different then

Anyway, shouldn't Deco or Xavi have been tracking Scholes?

[OwlsFan]

Irrelevant but will Fergie be banned for going up to the ref at half-time. He was waiting for the ref at the tunnel like a primary school bully. He is disgraceful.


This from "Mr. Morals" himself:

Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson has accused Real Madrid of lacking morals in their pursuit of Cristiano Ronaldo.

Real coach Bernd Schuster and president Ramon Calderon have both expressed a desire to see Ronaldo at The Bernabeu.

Ferguson, fresh from United's Champions League truimph, said: "Schuster's talking and Calderon's talking.

"Real think they can ride roughshod over everyone, but they won't do it with us. They have no moral issues."