Celtic Discussion

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Jam


Liverpool also sing the fields of Athenry now so I'd day their links are all but gone.

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the support some have here for essentially foreign teams just cos of a link to Ireland be it the flag or religion or whatever. If some English team flew the Saltire I widnae gie a phuck. In fact it might even annoy me a bit - wave yer ain flag kind of thing.



Liverpool sing "The Fields of Anfield Road" a version of the "The Fields of Athenry" and so do Rangers. The Rangers version is called "Hands Across the Sea". I think there still is a little bit of an affinity between Ulster Loyalists and Liverpool. I saw on television the night of the Lennon inicident, some young Northern Ireland fans wearing Liverpool tops and carrying NI "Red Hand of Ulster flags".

Also on a documentary on Carlisle's Irish manager last night saw a Shrewsbury fan waving a saltire. Must have been to wind up Carlisle fans becase they are a border team or maybe there's some Scottish connection.

Millwall were founded by the Scottish workers in a jam factory in the East End. Wore the Scottish lion rampant as a badge. Don't know if thy fly the Scottish flag though. Don't think there is a mad rush from Scotland to support to them.

[Bluebeard]

Originally posted by Jam
If you want to find Irish clubs I suggest you look no further than Ireland. They might not be that great but they are your clubs. I support Dunfermline Athletic - they are crap too - disnae make me support Celtic or Rangers though.

Nice one Jam, hit the nail on the head!

By the way, how are Gary Dempsey and Noel Hunt, two old Blues, doing for you this season so far? As far as I know, their presence at Dunfermline means that you have the highest number of Irish players in the squad of a Scottish premier team right now (do correct me if I'm wrong, I know someone will want to!), and seeing as they are old eL players, the answer to the question of who we should follow in Scotland is obviously Dunfermline Athletic :D :D

[Jam]

hunt has been injured start of this season but has shown that he has to be an Ireland prospect - quick, skilful and up for it - shame he was out on the first day of the season would have been a thorn in the side of the Tims. Last season the Huns kicked him off the park as he took the pish ootae them - to our delight. Dempsey is decent as always.

Of course you shid support 'The Pars'. It's the natural choice fur all Irish people. ;)

[gspain]

Ritchie Byrne also gone to the Pars now too.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the support some have here for essentially foreign teams just cos of a link to Ireland be it the flag or religion or whatever. If some English team flew the Saltire I widnae gie a phuck. In fact it might even annoy me a bit - wave yer ain flag kind of thing.



Born in England to Irish parents who had to leave because of the lack of work and poverty I feel a great affinity with Celtic fc and see it in some respects as a monument to the millions of Irish who had to leave their homeland for various reasons of the centuries!

While there is a history of immagration in Scotland, some of it forced eg clearing of the Highlands and islands I dont think you can say it has had as big an impact on the mentality of the Scottish people as immagration has had on the Irish and would say its not fair to compare the Scottish image of what constitutes a "foreign team" to that of the Irish people!

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
A club called Hibernian which means 'Irish' is hardly disassociated from its Irish origins.

Also the "Roy of the Rovers" badge as you called it, was in the traditional Irish colours of green, gold and silver ( the modern colours are green, white and orange ). The old flag of Ireland was a green flag with a golden harp with silver strings.

Of these facts Im sure your right!

But are you saying that my previous post about Hibs clear attempts to disassociate itself from its Irish roots are not true?

[Jam]

Irish Protestants left too. No-one supports them. Fair enough you can support who you like but I think the support Celtic (and for Rangers amongst Irish Protestants in part) has at least part of its motivation in sectarianism or imaginary football shirted political struggles.

I do accept your point about foreigness given the large Irish diaspora aornud the globe.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Hibs aren't really associated with Irishness at all. Very few tricolores at easter road - only to wind up huns and jambos. Celtic are much more associated with it but it's a kind of ridiculous Irishness IMO practices by those with tenuous links to Ireland (plastic paddies central IMO).



As someone who was not born in Ireland but considers myself Irish Im wondering if I would be considered a 'plastic paddy'?
Like many who go regularly to Parkhead its a way of connection with my "Irishness", there are many other ways, but thats one of the ones I have choosen as in my families case imagration has been a major factor and I see Celtic as a symbol of Irish imagration and the fact that those who move to foreign lands can prosper while retaining cultural links.

To be honest the reason I ask this because this "plastic paddy" term bothers me!
Are people who go to carnival in London to celebrate their afro caribbean links, even though some probably couldnt point it out
on a map at this, stage lumped in the same boat as the plastic paddies? or what about those within the asian communities within Britain, who still consider themselves to be Indians or Pakistanies, are they deluding themselves also?

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Irish Protestants left too. No-one supports them. Fair enough you can support who you like but I think the support Celtic (and for Rangers amongst Irish Protestants in part) has at least part of its motivation in sectarianism or imaginary football shirted political struggles.



For some I know it does, I know some of them personally!

But is that justification enough to tar everybody with the same brush?

[Jam]

Well being from Scotland - you should also understand that it's a phuqin national embarrassment to have our 2 major clubs embroiled in sectarianism which of course many Scots indulge in (they'd feel my wrath too). But some Irish do too and it stinks

[Jam]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
As someone who was not born in Ireland but considers myself Irish Im wondering if I would be considered a 'plastic paddy'?
Like many who go regularly to Parkhead its a way of connection with my "Irishness", there are many other ways, but thats one of the ones I have choosen as in my families case imagration has been a major factor and I see Celtic as a symbol of Irish imagration and the fact that those who move to foreign lands can prosper while retaining cultural links.

To be honest the reason I ask this because this "plastic paddy" term bothers me!
Are people who go to carnival in London to celebrate their afro caribbean links, even though some probably couldnt point it out
on a map at this, stage lumped in the same boat as the plastic paddies? or what about those within the asian communities within Britain, who still consider themselves to be Indians or Pakistanies, are they deluding themselves also?

I don't know anything about you so I couldn't say. What I can say is that I know of plenty of people in Scotland with distant links to Ireland (including myself) and there are some who go way overboard with being Irish. I accept the fact they consider themselves Irish but personally I don't conside them that.

Similarly, there are guys who go to Scotland games who are English too but have some Scottish roots. I accept they consider themselves Scottish but depending on the person will determine whether I actually consider them Scottish. Just because they say they are doesn't mean i have to consider them that.

I'm fae Pakistan likes. Did ye no ken that?

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Well being from Scotland - you should also understand that it's a phuqin national embarrassment to have our 2 major clubs embroiled in sectarianism which of course many Scots indulge in (they'd feel my wrath too). But some Irish do too and it stinks

I take your point and admit that there is a secterian problem at Celtic fc and it pains me to think that Celtic fans judge and abuse people on the grounds of colour or religion!

But to say that Celtic is embroiled in secterianism I cannot accpet that at all!
Very little secterianism at Parkhead anymore and while there is alot of "political" singing at away matches, which Im sure you dont agree with.
But political songs and secterian songs are two different things!

Isnt it also true that both Hibs and Hearts considered banning national flags in recent times as they were being used to inflame passions and that the biggest security alert of the season now is the meeetings of Rangers and Aberdeen?

Again I stress that Celtic arent innocent but considering that we get 60,000 at every home game I think the crowds are very well behaved
Its also worth noting that there isnt a club the length and breath of Britain that has a crowd that accurately reflects the ethnic backround of the area in which the ground is situated, usually inner city areas!

[Jam]

At East End Park on the first day of the season they sung "Lie down you Huns" in reference to Eng*ish pr*ck Sutton's comments on Dunfermline supposedly lying down = sectarian.

Look I know the huns are worse than the Tims on this issue but Celtic have a sectarian element of their support too - who sing songs about a difficult political problem in another country not cos they care but more cos it's a us vs them type culture and Scottish society is in some way out to oppress catholics :confused:

I accept that my reasons for disliking the OF are different from those here who dislike. My principle reason for disliking the OF is that they are basically anti-Scottish. Window dress it all you like but that's what it is. A quick view around Parkheid and Ibrox as to the flags being woven and the songs being sung will confirm that.

I also think from an Irish persepctive that Celtic don't represent Ireland either but rather a romantic if somewhat ridiculous political struggle involving beer, football shirts and stick on sentimental tears. Adams on his time in prison, whether you like him or not, commented once that he couldnae gie a phuq aboot the Celtic score. That's realpolitik of northern Ireland not the nonsense that eminates from Glasgow - a different country.

[Jam]

the Irish who went to Scotland went in the main over 100 years ago and to all extent and purposes aren't Irish.

[pete]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Some look on them as being disloyal for leaving in the first place....

Too right! Just cos theres a famine is no reason to jump so to speak.

;)

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Conor74
Umm, hate to spoil your evening but you are the very essence of a "Plastic Paddy".

The only condolence I can offer is not to take it too badly, there's nothing you can do about it and noone really judges people by whether or not their mother gave birth in Ireland, England or Katmandu. Though some get very sensitive about it so it can be useful wind up...

Born in England to Irish parents!
Who moved back when I was only 6 months old!
BTW the brought me back with them!:p

Eevn though I spent only 6 months of my life in England and didnt have a trace of an accent I was teased at school, might even go so far as calling it bullying, not for long though as Im not the type to allow people to take to many liberties!
I do however remember one young lad in secondary school getting a rather sever beating for daring to wear an Irish jersey because he was born in England..........was accused of being a plastic paddy and decided to defend himself against the accusation and paid for it!

Now to me this behavour is bigoted and indeed from seeing the term "plastic paddy" in action and witnessing how its use effects people I view it as being a racist term!
As you obviously have no problems with the term I can only conclude that you hold racist views?

So the only condolences I can offer you is to not take it to badly, theres LOTS you can do to change your attitude to other people and most will give ye the benifit of the doubt

[Scotsman]

I'm a Celtic fan and certainly not anti-Scottish - If anything I'm pro-Scottish.

I'm a true Scot born and bred and would love to see more Saltires at Parkhead.

Also a point about Scots immigration.

We do think the same as yourself about migration from the homeland.

The Scots suffered the Highland Clearances and this is remebered in Canada and America and we Scots remeber were they 1st landed and eventually migrated to and we have a soft spot for these countries.

So you see the thinking is similar.

Scotland has affiliations with Canada, America, Australia to name but a few.

So much so we have loads of pipe bands all over the world...recapturing that piece of Scottish culture.

With regards to football - A man from Glasgow started Sunderland FC.

A Scotsman started Brazilian football.

Religion plays a massive part in the affilialtion with Ireland/Irish migration to Catholic Celtic fans.

Example: Person has an Irish surname and is Catholic - They cling onto the whole Irish thing more than Protestant's with Irish names.

I have seen this Scenario for years.

On my mum's side there are alot of Irish surnames: Rooney, McGuigan, McCann, Maguire, Mullen.

My mum/Gran and their family do have a soft spot for Ireland.

Some are obsessed but that's because of bigotry, were as my Gran is more nostalgic as alot of her Great Aunts etc were 1st generation Irish.

My wife who is protestant grandad had a surname of Donnelly but they don't mention the whole Irish thing at all.

Yes there was the whole suppresion of Catholics in Scotland - Irish got it when they 1st moved here and Scots Catholics had to hide in sheds etc to be educated and have mass...Shocking.

The Church of Scotland has recently admitted anti-Cathoic acts and this is agood start to remove this from society.

All these years after a religous revolt in the 16th century!!

Madness.

Bigotry still remains but it has thankfully got better but the core will still remain for some years if not forever.

Alot of people like myself have mixed marriages in Scotland and that's a good thing.

Just wanted to clear up a few things - Ta

[Jam]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Oh so you are now the arbiter of how Irish or non Irish people are. We all bow to your superior knowledge....:rolleyes:


get a grip - over 100 years ago - green mist methinks. They are Scots - often bigoted too. The same Irish who emigrated to England 100 years ago don't consider themselves Irish at all - why? possibly cos there is less sectarian conflict in England.

I'm not the arbiter but I have my opinion - what people say about themselves isn't the arbiter either - there is such a thing as delusion you know and when you are talking several generations from that nationality I don't think it's unreasonable to describe that as being in the realms of delusion. As far as Lionel is concerned - fair enough - 1st generation sounds reasonable - but 2 or 3 generations down the line having never lived in Ireland would seem to be stretching it (and that's where the term plastic paddy or in my case plastic Jock would be used).

The point is Scotsman is that there aren't any at Parkheid (1 or 2 compared to about 10,000 tricolores) and the few they are at Castle Doom are surrounded in Union Jacks making it a very loyalist image of Scotland.

And that's why the gruesome twosome particular Huns are scum
:D

[Jam]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Call it anything you like the fact is the Irish traditions have been handed down generation on generation. It also helps the Ireland and Scotland are near each other with many thousands of Scottish born irish going back to the land of their forefathers.

You may not like to accept it but many 2nd and 3rd generation Irish still give their allegence to Ireland over scotland. One manifestation is indeed the many thousands of Tricolours at Paradise owned by Scottish born Celts....

no they are not - Celtic has become much more Irish in the last twenty years than it ever was in the 95 years before that. It's to do with lots of things - Rangers becoming more unionist in part as a response to Scotland becoming more nationalist in the 70s and 80s and beyond - Souness and England players at Ibrox, the changing fan base of the Tartan Army, the rise of RoI in the 80s as a decent fitba side, the conflict in Northern Ireland.

Thousands returning to live in Ireland from Scotland ma erse. Maist of them have never even been there. Celtic mist methinks. My Grandad come over from Ireland as a young child - he never supported anyone other than Dunfermline and Scotland. At that time that was the norm. Times were hard and people wanted to integrate. This is a sentimental response several generations later that's all - not some yearning to go back to the auld land - if that was the case they would go and live there.

I like Ireland - it's got a great culture and a guid laugh. But this overly sentimental response manifesting itself in some people considering themselves Irish (which happens with people of Scottish descent too of several generations ago towards Scotland - although not as common) is embarrassing.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Wrong once again Paddy. You make this so easy its embarassing. It was I who corrected someone else about McCann's origins. I refer you the third post on page 28 of this thread.

Must try harder buddy....:D

Sorry for confusing you with someone else.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Of these facts Im sure your right!

But are you saying that my previous post about Hibs clear attempts to disassociate itself from its Irish roots are not true?

Back in the 1930's the first Protestant to have shares in Hibernian, Harry Swan did consider changing the name to Edinburgh Thistle or something like that I think. Hibs would have lost a large section of their support if this had happened so I suppose he changed his mind. Swan also stopped Catholic priests getting free into matches in an effort to attract more support from non-Catholics.

But also duing the Harry Swan era, Donegalman Mickey Gallagher the first native Irish speaker to play for Ireland, played at right-half in the same side as the famous five.

The simple fact is that Hibernian were the first football club to be founded by Irish people ever and Celtic are just a spin-off founded by Hibs supporter Brother Walfrid, just like Dundee United (originally Dundee Hibs ) were founded by another Hibs supporting Irishman Pat Reilly.

[Blueman]

Swan did indeed try to make Hibs "less Irish" . He removed the harp that stood at the main gate and wanted to change the name. The harp has recently been incorporated in the new ( couple of years old now ) Hibs badge. This was designed with input from the supporters.

[Scotsman]

I could easily say - I'm Irish as my mum's maiden name is Rooney.

Why would I want to do that??

I'm not Irish - I was born in Scotland, Talk with a Scottish accent.

People who claim to be Irish and kidden themselves.

Americans/Canadians and even English do the same with Scotland.

The only reason the majority do that is for secterian purposes - IE Catholism.

Certainly they could have a soft spot for Ireland but not claim to be "Irish".

[Jam]

No they are not they are Irish cos their great-grandad moved to Glasgow 100 years ago and they've been to Donegal once. Just ask Silvio. ;)

[Scotsman]

I've had enough of this cr@p.

Some of Silvo's posts were as if they were more proud to be Irish.

Each to their own - We have enough people who are proud to be Scottish.

Personally I think they are fools to pretend to be Irish or otherwise.

If you strip away the whole secterian aspect and Celtic/Rangers existance there would not be people who thought they were Irish becuase they have an Irish surname from way.....back and support Celtic.

Some people do this to feel closer to Celtic.

Same with Rangers supporting England.

No Scotsman in their right mind would support the English.

The Tartan Army hate Rangers wearing England tops.

This whole thing is a plague and must be ridden of from Scotland and society as a whole.

I have no qualms with anyone who is genuine about their own ancestry - I hate people who latch onto it for football/secterian and bigoted reasons.

To Jam - Are you of Scots descent?

[Jam]

I'm from Dunfermline as is maist of ma family. I'm not of 'Scots descent' - I'm Scottish masel - nae descent aboot it fella!

Mibbe A'm Irish though cos ma Grandad was fae Ireland and I've been tae Donegal one time aboot ten year ago and I was in Derry last year fur a stag do! ....and A ken the wurds tae the Fields of Athenry...... :D ;)

[tiktok]

i agree with the 'each to their own thing' that silvio is getting at to a degree, i'm in the states now and if i had a kid over here i would definitely want him/her growing up considering themselves irish.

the problem arises when the traditions and culture that the ex-pats cling to no longer bears a resemblance to the land they left. the green mist, comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and rose tinted view of the 'troubles' and our 'struggle' create a chasm between irish residents and those abroad that consider themselves irish. this is where the whole plastic paddy thing is generated from.

this is more prevalent in the US than in scotland because the two nations (ireland and scotland) do share a lot of similarities, both positive and negative. but at the same time, holding a tricolour at celtic park while singing rebel songs doesn't make you irish, it simply makes you a celtic fan.

[Scotsman]

It wa shis Grnadad so maybe it didn't translude to the parents.

Anyway being Scottish is something also to be proud of as much as Irish.
If had a choice to come back as any race I would choose Scots/Irish and then Brazillian for the footie and the burds.

How's that?

[Scotsman]

Here's a wee joke :
You'll be sick o' the Irish jokes so here's one on my Countrymen.

A recent Scottish immigrant to the U.S. attended his first baseball game. After a base hit, he heard the fans roaring, "Run...run!"

The next batter connected heavily with the ball and the Scotsman stood up and roared with the crowd in his thick accent, "R-r-r-un yah bahstard. R-r-run!"

A third batter slammed a hit and again the Scotsman, obviously pleased with his knowledge of the game, screamed, "R-r-r-un ya bahstard, r-r-run will ya."

The next batter's count went to three and two. As the next pitch went outside the plate, he held his swing. The umpire called a walk and the Scotsman stood up yelling, "R-r-r-un ya bahstard, r-r-run!"

All the surrounding fans giggled quietly and he sat down, confused. A friendly fan, sensing his embarrassment, whispered, "He didn't run as he's got four balls."

After this explanation the Scotsman stood up in disbelief and screamed, "No wonner yer running!"


OR


A woman golfer suffers a nasty bee sting and leaves the course to go see her doctor about it.

"What happened?" asked the doctor.

"I got stung between the first and second hole," replied the lady golfer.

The doctor replied, "You must have an awfully wide stance!"


Or


Little Johnny was in his nursery class when the teacher asked the children what their fathers did for a living.

All the typical answers came up- fireman, policeman,salesman... etc... Johnny was being uncharacteristically quiet and so the teacher asked him about his father.

"My fathers an exotic dancer in a gay cabaret and takes off his clothes in front of other men. Sometimes ,if the offer is really good, he'll go out to the alley with some screamin fag and take it up the ass."

The teacher ,obviously shaken by this statement, hurriedly set the other children to work on some coloring, and took little Johnny aside to ask him,"Is that really true about your father?"

"No," said Johnny, "he plays for the Rangers, but I was too embarassed to say".

[Scotsman]

Sorry that should be "No wonner yer not running!"

That is what it should read - Sorry

[Scotsman]

What about this one:

Taking a wee break from the golf circuit, Tiger Woods drives his new Buick Rendezvous into an Irish gas station. An attendant greets him in typical Irish manner, unaware who the golf pro is, "Top o' the morning to ya". As Tiger gets out of the car, two tees fall out of his pocket. "So what are those thing my, son?" asks the attendant.

"They're called tees," replied Tiger.

"And what would ya be usin 'em for, now?" inquired the Irishman.

"Well, they're for resting my balls on when I drive," replies Tiger.

"Aw, Jaysus, Mary an' Joseph!" exclaimed the Irish attendant. "Those fellas working for Buick think of everything!"

[aussie_tim_1798]

ok, so i'm a Glasgow Celtic supporter from Australia...

before all you anti-Glasgow Celtic fellas on here judge me, try and put yourselves in my shoes for a sec: i wasn't brought up supporting any soccer club (soccer being a game for "wogs and poofters"), so when i started taking an interest in the beautiful game, i was able to make a very concious and deliberate choice as to which club i would support. an EPL round-up is on TV every monday night here on SBS, and i came very close to supporting either Leeds Utd or Liverpool. the former because i liked the squad (Kewell, McPhail, Harte) and the kits (all-white, and yellow) and the latter because... well, because they're Liverpool. but i'd always had Celtic in the back of my mind, because i was and still am very interested in Irish history and culture. if a foreign-born Ireland-loving celtophile is going to support a football club, which one do you think it'd be? considering that in Australia at least, i would never be able to see a single eL match. so when i read more of the Celtic's history, and saw my first Celtic match on TV, i fell in love with the club. the songs, the atmosphere, is unbelievable. (especially in comparison to the AFL!). and i sympathize(d) with many of the East End Glaswegians who romantically see themselves as displaced/exiled Irish.

but i agree with the central thrust of the anti-Celtic argument, namely, that it's hypocritical to fly the tricolor and sing songs about Ireland, when all the money you put into the club is going to Scotland. (i think it's very easy to take Football too seriously, and to get all moralistic about what is, after all, entertainment..i mean, using the same logic that some anti-Celtic people are using here, i could attack them for not supporting Ireland sufficiently, because they're not supporting the youth teams. obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere...i'd say, at supporting Man U :D and sport inevitably becomes political because of its very nature, and right or wrong, there's no denying it enhances the atmosphere..)

solution: the proposed Atlantic League. profressional football has become highly money-oriented, and i don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. big clubs in smaller leagues, are finding it harder and harder to compete with the big clubs in the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and Serie A. most of the following clubs have expressed their consideration or approval (in the case of Celtic since 2000) of the proposed league with would rival the large aforementioned ones...

Club Brugges [Belgium]
PSV Eindhoven [Holland]
Ajax [Holland]
Benfica [Portugal]
Sporting Lisbon [Portugal]
RSC Anderlecht [Belgium]
Glasgow Rangers [Scotland]
Glasgow Celtic [Scotland]
Feyenoord [Holland]
AIK Stockholm [Sweden]
Gothenburg [Sweden]
Brondby [Denmark]
FC Copenhagen [Denmark]
Standard Liege [Belgium]

with Celtic and Rangers participation in the SPL scrapped, so too would the possibility of winning the domestic treble, thus, it would be no great crime if Celtic pulled out of the League Cup, and instead competed in the FAI Cup. Celtic would become the first border-transcendent football club, playing home games alternately in Glasgow and Dublin. Celtic FC could merge with Shamrock Rovers, building a new stadium and garnishing an immediate fanbase. by the time all this occurs, the inevitable United Ireland will hopefully have been achieved, and the Belfast Catholic community would immediately rally around an official re-identification with the Grand Auld Team, Belfast Celtic (maybe even a further merger with Cliftonville?).

this scenario would thus eliminate the hypocrisy inherent in the present situtation. and since Celtic will be playing in the Atlantic League, we also wouldn't be faced with the peculiar situation of the club competing against other Irish clubs on a week-in, week-out basis.

this is all very far-fetched i know, but i think it's obvious that the future of football in these capitalist supra-national times is border-transcendent, and it is only a matter of time before a permanent European leaugue replaces all national leagues (with domestic Cups staying in place). we may not like it, but it is inevitable, if money is going to continue ruling and running the beautiful game.


on a quite different note....i want to follow an eL club... but which? obviously i have an immediate leaning to the Shamrock Rovers because of their strong Celtic FC connection, and they're roving/wandering history also appeals to me...then most of my Irish ancestors were from Cork, but i don't know if any of them were actually from Cork City. and has said club dropped the "Rebels" nickname? other ancestors were from Clare, but then there's no Clare club... but how can i really decide without even being able to see a match? i hope to go on student exchange to UCD, so maybe i'll have to wait till then, and experience the atmosphere of each club, before i can make any truly informed decision...

anyways, i apologize for the long-windedness of this post...

[Cityace]

No offence but this is complete poo.

If your so interested in Irish culture support an irish team.
But the fact is that you said you fell in-love with the atmosphere, yadda,yadda,yadda,etc. so therefore your influences have p!ss all to do with Irish culture.

[aussie_tim_1798]

i'm confused by your reply... are you denying that Irish culture has had a great effect on the culture of Glasgow Celtic?

and i said i wanted to support an eL team... is it not possible to support two teams?

moreover, if i take your point to its logical end, if i was interested in Irish culture, i shouldn't follow a soccer club at all, but only Gaelic Football and Hurling, right?

[Cityace]

Well no since you said you wanted to support a soccer team.The only influences that We have on celtic now are the idiots who give them their money instead of our own teams.If you wanna follow an irish team then just do it instead of just talking about it.Its not that hard.And i suppose you can follow two teams but its not socially accepted hereabouts.:p

Why dont you follow an aussie team?

[aussie_tim_1798]

well, it is hard, because i can't see a single game!

but let's say, next year, when i'm at UCD and i do get to see games, and i decide on a club, if, for every dollar i spend on Celtic FC, i equaled with a dollar spent on an Irish-based club - will that go anyway towards redeeming me in your eyes?

as regards to why i don't follow an Australian team... have you ever read anything about Australia? not exactly a history that begets a whole lot of pride, if you know what i mean... 'tis true, that it probably is "the most Irish country outside of Ireland" culturally, but a lot of things have to change sociopolitically before i'll even consider lending my support to anything that represents Australia.

and it's not true that the only thing Irish lend to Celtic FC now is money... they still sing Irish songs, there's still more young talent signed from Ireland than anywhere else outside Scotland...

[dahamsta]

Thread split (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9807). If it goes off-topic again, it'll be locked. For what it's worth, I can't understand why this argument goes around and around and around. Celtic is a Scottish club, what's so hard to understand about that?

adam

[pete]

Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
...if a foreign-born Ireland-loving celtophile is going to support a football club, which one do you think it'd be?

Just because you have irish roots of some sort why do you feel you have to support a club thousands of miles away that you have no connection to? That would be tha same if supporting a scottish or irish club.

I could pick an Italian team to support cos i liked their jerseys or whatever but how will i ever have an connection with that club? I can still watch them on tv & look out for their results but i can never really be called a supporter cos i'm really only a spectator...

[Scouse]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
moreover, if i take your point to its logical end, if i was interested in Irish culture, i shouldn't follow a soccer club at all, but only Gaelic Football and Hurling, right?
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Can i just get rid of a misconception.

The only "Irish" sports in the world are hurling and croquets (no i am not making this up). Gaelic Football is just that - an Irish spin-off of rugby/association football.

[Scouse]

"tim_1798" - i think this is more interesting in the context of ur connundrum.

I hardly think that Henry Joy McCracken would enjoy a Glasgow Celtic game. I dont think he would appreciate the "Irish culture" inherent in a lot of Celtic supporters songs.

[Paddy Ramone]

Henry Joy McCracken if he were alive today would probably be a Hibernian fan. Hibs fans sometimes fly the green flag which was the flag flown by the men of 1798. Also McCracken being a Presbyterian and Republican would identify with the fact that Hibs draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants.

[Scotsman]

What you have to understand is that these Irish boys will think you are a "Plastic Paddy".

Glad I don't have that problem.

The real Irish culture that Celtic had is immalgameted with Scottush culture - Not too unsimilar.

This is old ground - I'll leave it at that

[Scotsman]

See we have Dani and De La Pena on trial at the moment??

Super

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Conor74
LOL!!!

Let's not get too hysterical because you got a bloody nose at school. If you think Plastic Paddies are a new race, fair play to you. Get a grant and go live with them for a few years and write a book telling us about their customs and traditions.

I've heard it all here, I must say. Dear me, calling someone "plastic" is racist? Hilarious stuff, LH, absolutely priceless...

Laugh it off all ye like mate but if people object to a term being used against them as it causes offence and indeed leads to violence you continue to use it your a racist!
Times are changing in Ireland mate and its upto you if ye want to live in the past or not!

[Lionel Hutz]

The main reason I stay away from league of Ireland grounds Austim is the fans!
Actaully its probably why alot of people stay away from league of ireland grounds.......
Most of them just go as an excuse to get away from the wife and stand there giving out about everything that moves.
You know the type they can be found at any bar in Ireland sitting around solving the problems of the world to their own satisfaction and god forbid anyone should have an opinion that doesnt conform to their thinking.
Just look through some of the threads on these boards to see what I mean.
Leave them to it I say

My advice to ye is to stick with Celtic fc, ye cant go wrong!

Hail Hail

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Scotsman

The real Irish culture that Celtic had is immalgameted with Scottush culture - Not too unsimilar.



Personally I dont see Irish and Scottish culture and history as being at all similar which is the way it should be!
Lots of different colours are far nicer than just different shades of grey
:)

[aussie_tim_1798]

Henry Joy McCracken if he were alive today would probably be Hibernian fan. Hibs fans sometimes fly the green flag which was the flag flown by the men of 1798. Also McCracken being a Presbyterian and Republican would identify with the fact that Hibs draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants.


"tim_1798" - i think this is more interesting in the context of ur connundrum. I hardly think that Henry Joy McCracken would enjoy a Glasgow Celtic game. I dont think he would appreciate the "Irish culture" inherent in a lot of Celtic supporters songs.

what a couple of ******** posts these are. firstly, Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).

and what on earth would McCracken find offensive about Celtic's songs? admittedly, in the past there were a few "John Knox is down in hell" and "oh it's great to be a Roman Catholic", but since the board-initiated Bhoys Against Bigotry campaign, these have been successfully banned. even ones i'm sure he would have approved of, like A Nation Once Again, have been banned :mad:

furthermore, there are a huge amount of protestant celts - myself included. i've never even been inside an RC church, the only church i ever attended was protestant, and i know alot of Celtic fans (particularly in US, Aus, and NZ) who are the same. (i'm actually agnostic now though btw). and believe me, we have no trouble being accepted by the 70%-85% Catholic-schooled majority.

i rather think McCracken would have been a follower of a Ulster Belfast club, like Glentoran, or maybe even Cliftonville.

[aussie_tim_1798]

Just because you have irish roots of some sort why do you feel you have to support a club thousands of miles away that you have no connection to? That would be tha same if supporting a scottish or irish club.

I could pick an Italian team to support cos i liked their jerseys or whatever but how will i ever have an connection with that club? I can still watch them on tv & look out for their results but i can never really be called a supporter cos i'm really only a spectator...

actually, i don't simply watch them on t.v., i've also spend perhaps a thousand dollars on merchandise, i'm a World Huddle member (i.e. season-ticket holder for foreigners), i watch the games with fellow Celtic-supporters (most of whom are from Scotland, some Irish) and sing the songs. the only thing that separates my level of participation from most is that i've never actually had the pleasure of entering Celtic Park.

but the real point is, that this is a slippery-slope argument. if i decided to support a melbourne team, i'd really have little connection with that club either. since i'm not actually from melbourne (would an Australian club founded by, and mostly staffed by, either Italians or Greeks or Macedonians, have much relevance to me anyway?) but a small town north, which only has a junior amatuer club, who if i played for would probably be their best player - should i support it?

fact is, your connection is wherever your heart lies...



What you have to understand is that these Irish boys will think you are a "Plastic Paddy".

well, i'd love to hear a definition of a "Plastic Paddy". i mean, for example, does Henry Joy McCracken fall under this nomenclature? or Douglas Hyde? or all the thousands who since 1169 have come to Ireland only to eventually call it home? does Ireland not welcome immigrants?

the story of my love affair is quite simple: when i was 12, my mother and my grandmother went on holiday to Europe. they returned with, among many other souvenoirs, some history books, and a Phil Coulter CD. they spent most of their time in the British Isles, and loved the British Isles the most, and so i asked where my ancestors were from (expecting the answer to be England of course). my dad's side, basically 100% Irish Catholic (he even spoke some Gaelic in his childhood with relatives), and my mum's side, an admixture of Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, and English. so i started reading the history books on these countries and became quite enthralled (as a 12 year old does with tales of battles and their heroes). above all, the photos of the Irish landscape possessed for me an overwhelming sense of familiarity. but nothing could prepare me for the experience that was listening to my first CD of Celtic (mostly Irish) music (albeit played on a piano with accompaniment). amazing. ever since then, i've always thought of Eire as home, it's always felt like home. is that a crime?

"they say, they will, return again
the london irish, the london irish
but they, won't say, exactly when
the london irish, the london irish"

i thought many Irish wanted their expatriates to return?



The main reason I stay away from league of Ireland grounds Austim is the fans!
Actaully its probably why alot of people stay away from league of ireland grounds.......
Most of them just go as an excuse to get away from the wife and stand there giving out about everything that moves.
You know the type they can be found at any bar in Ireland sitting around solving the problems of the world to their own satisfaction and god forbid anyone should have an opinion that doesnt conform to their thinking.
Just look through some of the threads on these boards to see what I mean.
Leave them to it I say

My advice to ye is to stick with Celtic fc, ye cant go wrong!

Hail Hail

thanks for the advice Lionel Hutz, and i know the type you're talking about, but i'm sure i'll have to go to Ireland before i accept any such generalization. :)

[Scotsman]

Lionel what I was meaning was that because of the differences between Irish and Scots the Celtic fans that get called "Plastic Paddys" do have alot of differences to say their ancestors.

Personally I can see similarities between Scots and Irish but yes differences are good.

Anyway C'mon the hoops.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Conor74
You might quote the source of your presumptions.

I actually bring the wife. We meet a lot of (mostly unmarried) fellows and talk about the game. We go for a few drinks before and after and have a good laugh. We may head for a late bar. Nobody gives out about anything unless the team played poorly, because who wants to listen to whingers all night?

So agin, i ask you, what's the source of your fascinating theory?

You from the League Of Ireland PR team or what?
:D