20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

[nr637]

Lets list possible teams for the proposed North & South Divisions.

Some teams already mentioned are a Mayo FC team representing the Mayo football leagues and CK United covering the Carlow/Kilkenny areas, I think.

Just thought it might be interesting to see what fans around the country think what areas need representing outside the existing areas already covered!

[cobhlad]

Tipperary (St Michael’s), Kildare (Maynooth), Clare (Newmarket) are three areas that certainly have clubs capable of stepping up in counties not represented already. Whether they will is another thing.

UCC (Cork), Salthill Devon (Galway), Villa (Waterford) are all clubs in areas with a team already but these regions probably could sustain it and help give football to young players coming out of the academy not able for the step up yet.

[nr637]

I suppose the clubs in Munster & Leinster Senior leagues in the main will not be interested from an issue with facilities. Some of the grounds would really not be suitable. Maybe Midleton, current champions of the Munster Senior league might be tempted and clubs like St Francis former league club and probably Lucan United or St. Mochtas. I hope it doesn't get dominated with more Dublin City clubs

[Neish]

Rumors for Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic(Buncrana) being interested in entering from Donegal, Fanad United would be another that could possibly enter the North league

[passinginterest]

The likes of Greystones United, Arklow Town and Gorey Rangers along the East coast would all have decent setups and might be the kind of clubs interested. Pretty sure they all have extensive schoolboy sections too. Maynooth would be another club that have been doing well in recent years in LSL etc. but nor sure what their underage section is like. Some of the Dublin based LSL sides might be tempted. Someone like Malahide/Skerries/Swords who'd be outside the traditional club hinterlands. Looking at other clubs in top LSL divisions and from outside Dublin, you'd have the likes of Edenderry, Tullamore (Offaly), Willow Park (Westmeath), Newbridge, Leixlip (Kildare), Dunboyne (Meath).

A lot will depend on costs and licencing requirements you'd image. Money talks, so if the FAI can sell it as a way for clubs to generate funds, rather than lose money, that will make or break it!

[Martinho II]

Cant rule out the likes of the NE either Monaghan Utd or Monaghan/Cavan side?

[DCSIL]

Would this stop Harps joining the Northern Irish leagues if there’s less travelling?

[culloty82]

Given Killarney Celtic have little domestic challenge in the KDL, they may be tempted to put in an application, even if Kerry could yet be joining them in the Southern Section by that stage. Pike and Fairview Rangers would surely be interested from Limerick, and possibly Rockmount from Cork?

[EatYerGreens]

Rumors for Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic(Buncrana) being interested in entering from Donegal, Fanad United would be another that could possibly enter the North league

I couldn't see Fanad lasting tbh. They're just too far away from everything, and their population and catchment area is too small (the village has about 700 people). The mileage and especially journey time they'd clock up would be bonkers, even in a regionalised league. They're about 45mins north of Letterkenny as it is, for example. It would take over 2 and a half hours to get to Monaghan, and that's without leaving Ulster.

Letterkenny makes perfect sense for me. It has the population, but I've no idea what sort of facilities the club has up there?

[legendz]

The first teams that took part in the A Championship from '08 to '11:
2008) Mervue United, Salthill Devon and Tullamore Town.
2009) Salthill Devon, Tullamore Town, Cobh Ramblers, Castlebar Celtic, F.C. Carlow and Tralee Dynamos.
2010) Castlebar Celtic, Tullamore Town, Cobh Ramblers, F.C. Carlow and Tralee Dynamos.
2011) Fanad United, F.C. Carlow, Tralee Dynamos and Cobh Ramblers.
Mayo FC, Klub Kildare and CK United from the academy leagues seem to have LoI ambitions. Hard to comment on anyone else. Tullamore Town are the only ones listed above in an area without LoI football. Castlebar, Carlow, Tralee and Tullamore had the rug pulled from under them.
It'll be interesting to see who are actually waiting in the wings to join National League.

[nigel-harps1954]

I couldn't see Fanad lasting tbh. They're just too far away from everything, and their population and catchment area is too small (the village has about 700 people). The mileage and especially journey time they'd clock up would be bonkers, even in a regionalised league. They're about 45mins north of Letterkenny as it is, for example. It would take over 2 and a half hours to get to Monaghan, and that's without leaving Ulster.

Letterkenny makes perfect sense for me. It has the population, but I've no idea what sort of facilities the club has up there?

There isn't really a Fanad village. I would also wager they have zero interest in the new third tier.

Letterkenny Rovers are definitely the best set up. They have a decent 200 seater stand, plans for a new clubhouse and dressing rooms, right in Letterkenny town, but they have very little support in the town itself. They have plenty of money behind them though and basically have an ex-Harps team playing Donegal League at the minute including Mark Anthony McGinley, Keith Cowan, BJ Banda, Adrian Delap and more. They 100% have an eye on the new third tier.

[joey B]

You’d think Cockhill will be giving serious consideration to the new league aswell,far and the best intermediate side in the county when they had an intermediate league to play in…..

[Nesta99]

Did I read someone saying that Cavan/Monaghan have gone? If so when? Dundalk need to seriously tap that source for the academy with catchement growth in to east Monaghan at the very least and this would be the way to do it. If Cavan Moaghan are still going as an acedamy but not interest in LoI structures than a partnership with Dundalk is a no brainer.

[cláirseach]

Around the death of the USL there was an understanding on Cockhill's end that they would have a role in the upcoming third tier. Of course, more time has since passed than expected.

Agree with most posts above in that I'd also expect interested from Letterkenny Rovers but I think Fanad is just guessing, I don't think they'll be involved.

[legendz]

Monaghan & Cavan, Meath, Laois & Offaly, Tipperary and Clare seem the 5 standout areas without academy football at least.
Treaty United currently seem incapable of being a club for the mid west region. Others might have detail on any neighbouring LoI links with Monaghan & Cavan, Meath and Laois & Offaly. Any strategic planning for the academy leagues should possibly be looking to expand to those 5 regions.
Of some of the clubs mentioned by others on here, I'll be interested to see if the formation of the National League encourages them to put academy structures in place. The National League pathway might be part of the encouragement they require.
Of regions currently with LoI clubs from posts by others on here it seems 1 or 2 - Dublin, 1 - Cork, 1 - Wicklow and 1 - Donegal might be tempted?
Mayo FC, Klub Kildare, CK United, 5 regions without academy football and 5 clubs from regions with LoI representation works out at an upper potential of 13 clubs. Excluding the 5 regions without academy football, 8 first team clubs seems a more realistic prospect for 2026 at a stretch. Getting nearer to 20 will required B teams and universities getting on board. Shamrock Rovers are the only club with a proven track record for an enthusiasm for a B team.

[cláirseach]

The (unreliable) rumours I had heard around Dublin involved St Francis and Maynooth. Dan McDonnell has mentioned Lucan United (their location is a bit of a pity).

[Buckett]

Ballymun was another club that I heard could be interested

[culloty82]

Did I read someone saying that Cavan/Monaghan have gone? If so when? Dundalk need to seriously tap that source for the academy with catchement growth in to east Monaghan at the very least and this would be the way to do it. If Cavan Moaghan are still going as an acedamy but not interest in LoI structures than a partnership with Dundalk is a no brainer.

Having a quick look in FAI Connect, they don't appear to have played in the underage leagues since 2022?

[nigel-harps1954]

I think people are underestimating this. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than 20 applications and a few teams have to be turned away. The north/south divide makes it a hell of a lot more appealing to prospective sides. There'll be no more than 2 or 3 hours travel for the majority of sides for away games.

There's a lot of clubs in the country who'll fancy a crack at this without the full commmitment of joining the LOI senior ranks in an already established First Division.

The key to this will be extra detail provided to any clubs from the FAI.

What might be interesting to watch, would be the potential for representative sides from junior league areas without a club, and whether the FAI might look to encourage such an 'entity' to join, as opposed to a club.

[legendz]

I think people are underestimating this. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than 20 applications and a few teams have to be turned away. The north/south divide makes it a hell of a lot more appealing to prospective sides. There'll be no more than 2 or 3 hours travel for the majority of sides for away games.
It is perfectly understanding to underestimating it after the A Championship. That was also North and South.
Didn't Mayo League more or less have to form Mayo FC? I don't expect "entities" to be allowed. It will have to be Meath FC for example. Club structures will have to be put in place.

[culloty82]

Except Nigel is saying that because the likes of Parkvilla may not have the wherewithal themselves to step up to the third tier, that's precisely why the Meath DL might be looking to follow the Kerry and Mayo example, though as the FAI have clarified, it would have to be a legally distinct entity from the league itself.

[legendz]

Yeah, that's it. A legally distinct entity. They will have to form a club like Mayo FC. It is the least commitment that should be required in fairness.
It'll be interesting to see the mix of clubs that do come forward. The Kerry FC blueprint that Mayo FC are following is not for everyone. Might Athlone Town have an east Westmeath rival who might want to join? Finn Harps a rival from nearby Letterkenny. Some areas suit getting behind one team while others might more suit a local rivalry.

[Martinho II]

Considering East Westmeath is mentioned ere wonder would Mullingar Town make an application considering the population size of Mullingar and the easy access for travel time? They did apply over 20 yrs ago to get into LOI

[cláirseach]

Ballymun was another club that I heard could be interested

There was a rumour of them having an arrangement with a nearby institution but I had presumed that was rubbish, very interesting / odd if not.

If approaching this from a spectator pov, as most here will, it is worth noting how awkwardly located many of the dublin area sides mentioned are.

[Glen Of Aherlow]

Considering East Westmeath is mentioned ere wonder would Mullingar Town make an application considering the population size of Mullingar and the easy access for travel time? They did apply over 20 yrs ago to get into LOI

Mullingar Athletic would be in a far better place to apply these days in a lot of ways , however their ground is a few miles outside town

[brendy_éire]

There isn't really a Fanad village. I would also wager they have zero interest in the new third tier.

Fanad were in the A Championship a good few years ago, mind. Also entered the League Cup at time.
Point taken on the lack of population.

You would imagine Cockhill could be tempted to apply. Easily the best team in Donegal, with a half decent soccer-orientated population to draw from. They'd have access to Maginn Park too, if needs be.

Will there be any sort of ground requirement for the third tier?

[Elfman]

I think people are underestimating this. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than 20 applications and a few teams have to be turned away. The north/south divide makes it a hell of a lot more appealing to prospective sides. There'll be no more than 2 or 3 hours travel for the majority of sides for away games.

There's a lot of clubs in the country who'll fancy a crack at this without the full commmitment of joining the LOI senior ranks in an already established First Division.

The key to this will be extra detail provided to any clubs from the FAI.

What might be interesting to watch, would be the potential for representative sides from junior league areas without a club, and whether the FAI might look to encourage such an 'entity' to join, as opposed to a club.

Interesting take on this Nigel. I was pessimistic myself and could only come up with 11 non-LOI B teams who would have an interest. Which counties are the teams you were thinking about drawn from?

[nigel-harps1954]

Interesting take on this Nigel. I was pessimistic myself and could only come up with 11 non-LOI B teams who would have an interest. Which counties are the teams you were thinking about drawn from?

I'm not really making any assumptions as such, just think there could be a few left field applications for this, and potentially a few clubs or league entities coming together. Lot will depend on how the FAI approach it themselves, or what information they'll give out to any interested parties.

[Nesta99]

About 15 years ago Drogheda Town had ambitions for LoI, they (quite arrogantly and naively I thought) believed they would have done a better job than United at a time when DUFC were going to the wall after the Cup and League wins. It'd be interesting if they still felt the same way now. Timing will be significant for some, the mess that happened in Galway football was basically that junior blazers wanted to put the senior club back in ther box and we know how that went in the end. I get the impression that there is a lot less Junior clubs wanting to show how its done, that if they step up it is with ambition rather than with disdain and in the belief that what senior clubs do was easy. I just cannot see where 20 clubs will come from. There are that number capable and with potential to stay at that grade if not significantly make iroads to to top tables of the game.

Will there be promotion to and relegation from this national league, opening almost the entire game in to the system. There will inevitably be 'break away' leagues that will close off and refuse to align their season but the simple stick and carrot there is that they would lose accreditation.membeship and voting rights with the FAI and damage grant and funding access. Without B teams from at least the premier division I cant see the numbers interested beaing made somehow, if 1st Division clubs want B teams involved then it becomes messy taking up too many slots. I can see why there'd be interest from underage clubs in the LoI system having their own pathway to the senior game but link ups with existing senior clubs still has less risk imo but I will admit bias here where Id hope for say CM, Dundalk Schoolboys, some Meath and North Dublin underge setups to co-op with Dundalk, wont be the cream of underage clubs but sometimes the bigger the schoolboy clubs the more likely kids fall through the cracks.

Mullingar, Meath (preferably 2 sides between say Navan and Trim rather than a catch all catch none county effort), Mayo, CK, Ballymun, maybe a Donegal side, looking to some old returns like Monaghan, Kildare/Newbridge, top junior clubs that regularly qualify for the FAI Cup, and other Higher Education side or 2 UCC/UL, Tech Uni that have significant sports related courses and the ability to run proper scholarships, id expect an opportunistic franchise type to have a go - Irish Sea out of Santry type effort. Ground requirements and timescale to develop things will be key but another carrot if there is addtional access to grants involved. I could see an Ardee Celtic have a go locally. Maybe a 10 team effort with National League 2 North/South would be easier even?

[Buckett]

So, 20 sounds like too many teams to attract but a ten team national league with a regional national league two below it, that's 30 teams altogether, would work?

BTW, Galway Utd's problems had nothing to do with Mervue or Salthill. Both those clubs will probably apply to the National League and best of luck to them.

[legendz]

So, 20 sounds like too many teams to attract but a ten team national league with a regional national league two below it, that's 30 teams altogether, would work?

BTW, Galway Utd's problems had nothing to do with Mervue or Salthill. Both those clubs will probably apply to the National League and best of luck to them.

I think around 10 teams in a nationwide National League is more achievable. The next step after that should be regional leagues that district leagues would offer promotion to.

[nigel-harps1954]

Cockhill Celtic manager Gavin Cullen confirmed to Highland Radio they'll be putting in an application.

Letterkenny Rovers are definitely putting in an application too. So that's two more Donegal teams at least.

[EatYerGreens]

Ballymun was another club that I heard could be interested

They broadcasted to the world about 2yrs ago that they were improving their facilities to take the step up to senior football in the following years.

[legendz]

Current strong possibilities:
1. Shamrock Rovers B
2. CK United
3. Klub Kildare
4. Mayo FC
5. Cockhill Celtic
6. Letterkenny Rovers

Only 14 more to go.

[EatYerGreens]

Cockhill Celtic manager Gavin Cullen confirmed to Highland Radio they'll be putting in an application.

Letterkenny Rovers are definitely putting in an application too. So that's two more Donegal teams at least.

That seems crazy to be honest.

The 2022 census had almost 7,000 people living in Buncrana - making it bigger than Ballybofey-Stranorlar (5,500), but not vastly so.

The name 'Cockhill Celtic' wouldn't be great longer-term if they did get into the new structure. You'd think they'd need to adopt less of a parochial title to stand a chance of prospering longer term.

Chances are the FAI will be a bit desperate to let anyone in with a vaguely decent proposal, just to make up the numbers. The North-West could be the new Dublin if you have Letterkenny, Cockhill, Finn Harps and Derry City all in the LOI structure at the same time :D

[cláirseach]

Some of this discussion risks flattening local sporting tapestries and reducing assessments of the health of the sport in the relevant area to demographic charts from the corner of wikipedia pages. I think an Inishowen entry, whether it is Cockhill (the premier team there for quite some time) or a team entered by the Inishowen League (still a possibility, though I would wager much less likely) is a completely sensible move for that level. Football is by some distance the most popular sport in the area and there is plenty of evidence to support the idea the player base in the broader region and sufficient local interest to sustain a competitive third tier team. There isn't even a need for the abstract task of imagining the possible strands that could come together to make a decent side, the actually exisiting Cockhill teams of the past decade have been very strong as it is (albeit with a small hit since the collapse of the USL and the gradual increase in recruitment from Irish League clubs).

FWIW that list at the end is still one short of what the poor aul A Championship had (Inishowen for Cockhill, and add Fanad)!

[EatYerGreens]

Some of this discussion risks flattening local sporting tapestries and reducing assessments of the health of the sport in the relevant area to demographic charts from the corner of wikipedia pages. I think an Inishowen entry, whether it is Cockhill (the premier team there for quite some time) or a team entered by the Inishowen League (still a possibility, though I would wager much less likely) is a completely sensible move for that level. Football is by some distance the most popular sport in the area and there is plenty of evidence to support the idea the player base in the broader region and sufficient local interest to sustain a competitive third tier team. There isn't even a need for the abstract task of imagining the possible strands that could come together to make a decent side, the actually exisiting Cockhill teams of the past decade have been very strong as it is (albeit with a small hit since the collapse of the USL and the gradual increase in recruitment from Irish League clubs).

FWIW that list at the end is still one short of what the poor aul A Championship had (Inishowen for Cockhill, and add Fanad)!

The reason why demographics matter in football is because it's largely a professional sport. And professional sport requires money (and increasingly so over time). So if a club doesn't have a decent catchment area to tap into, its financial prospects - and thereby its chances of success or even survival at that level - are limited.

Obviously the new 3rd tier won't be professional. And it will doubtless be able to carry a few clubs from less-populated places. But also no doubt money will creep more and more into it over time and corrupt the whole thing, the way it does with football everywhere. People will get overly ambitious; wealthy sponsors will get carried away etc etc. When in reality all football teams tend to find their level longer-term, and one which usually reflects their population/catchment area to a large degree. There's a reason why Dublin clubs have usually dominated the LOI and Belfast clubs the IL.

Also - if part of the rationale for the 3rd tier is for it to be a stepping stone up to the senior game, then clubs from small places will obviously struggle if and when they do get promoted. That's the problem in football - when merit on the pitch crashes into the hard reality of financial viability off of it.

Is there not decent support for Derry City in Inishowen already?

[Nesta99]

So, 20 sounds like too many teams to attract but a ten team national league with a regional national league two below it, that's 30 teams altogether, would work?

BTW, Galway Utd's problems had nothing to do with Mervue or Salthill. Both those clubs will probably apply to the National League and best of luck to them.

10 teams interested for a national league 1.with legit aspirations for promotion. A lower level, less requirements NL2 N/S, less ambitious and possibility of LoI B sides if needed. where there is less risk to being involved and is properly opened to the rest of the system. I know the ins and outs of what happened in Galway so I was being general and brief.

[MoydowMonty]

Doesn't Tullamore Town exist too or am I making that up? That would be an Offaly club sorted.

I do wonder how relegation would work. Would it just be 10th place in FD that goes down automatically, would they go into a playoff with the national league winner? Trying to remember how the A-Championship did it, think it was 1st place there VS 10th place FD in a play-off.

[legendz]

If Mayo can get behind one team, and it seems similar to Kerry that they can, professional football in the long term would seem more attainable for Mayo FC than two or three competing clubs.
Again, there is no one size that fits all. An Athlone - Mullingar rivalry might be best for the Midlands.

[MoydowMonty]

Is there a timeline for when this 3rd tier is expected to be in place? Are we looking at 2026, 2027 or further beyond?

[Shearer]

Only club in Limerick who are ambitious enough to apply would be Aisling Annacotty and maybe Newcastle West Town, but I doubt the latter will.

Fairview Rangers have two stands making up an impressive ground but, like a lot of clubs, would rather be a big fish in a small pond.

[wonder88]

I would hope that one or both of Salthill Devon and Mervue utd apply. It would give an opportunity to local Galway players to develop and those older players of reasonable ability to play for a team near them. In terms of support, I wonder what the target the FAI have, would 250-300 be sufficient?
Good point made by Legentz above, that local rivalries can suit certain regions, clusters of clubs is a feature of many leagues. Cork Celtic/Hibs games I am sure where big draws, maybe Cobh going into private owners may bring back the big derby games down there.

[CorribsideSteve]

Only club in Limerick who are ambitious enough to apply would be Aisling Annacotty and maybe Newcastle West Town, but I doubt the latter will.

Fairview Rangers have two stands making up an impressive ground but, like a lot of clubs, would rather be a big fish in a small pond.

7000 people live in or around NCW, and it's the county town, with a straight, wide, main road all the way to Limerick, where it's just 30 minutes away. You would think surely at some future point they'd give it a go. They must have had a horrendous time in the LOI in the 80's to have never tried again, but the LOI was beyond puerile amateurishness in those days, and the town must be three times bigger now also.

[Shearer]

7000 people live in or around NCW, and it's the county town, with a straight, wide, main road all the way to Limerick, where it's just 30 minutes away. You would think surely at some future point they'd give it a go. They must have had a horrendous time in the LOI in the 80's to have never tried again, but the LOI was beyond puerile amateurishness in those days, and the town must be three times bigger now also.
I read that they had planned on returning to the league but it never happened for whatever reason.

Hypothetical, but if you had a team like Newcastle representing West Limerick you would be drawing from a strong enough playing pool in the region. Lot of players going into the city for the "expenses" might just stay.

I don't think it will happen just yet but I would say they would be more forward thinking than the "bigger" clubs in the city and county.

[legendz]

Established clubs can probably join the National League and build their academy structures later. Any new club being formed could do the same but they are possibly better off building through the youth leagues. It'll be very left field for a Meath FC to arrive in the National League. Maybe people might get it. Mayo FC, Klub Kildare and CK United have been getting established through the academy leagues. Not so left field that they would look to join the National League.

[Crgalway]

I’d imagine limerick fc will apply for new league. Seems to be a bit of unrest also with treaty and their fans at the moment

[Martinho II]

I’d imagine limerick fc will apply for new league. Seems to be a bit of unrest also with treaty and their fans at the moment

Thats interesting. Considering the two clubs dont get on where will Limerick FC play?

[sbgawa]

Thats interesting. Considering the two clubs dont get on where will Limerick FC play?

Understatement of the year ;)

[Shearer]

Thats interesting. Considering the two clubs dont get on where will Limerick FC play?
Limerick Football Club don't even play in Limerick.

They got the boot from UL and Hogan Park and play their underage games in Charleville, Co. Cork.

Which is hilarious because Kilkenny United got removed from the WNL for not training in Kilkenny, amongst other spurious reasons. (https://www.extratime.com/articles/24209/kilkenny-united-release-lengthy-statement-following-womens-national-league-departure/)