20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

[EalingGreen]

Where's the evidence to support the assertion that Dublin non-league clubs have growing strength?

So where is the evidence of growing strength from Dublin non-league clubs?I was referring to the growth of the existing (Senior) Dublin clubs. You know, Shams, Bohs, Shels and Pats, clubs which are going from (ahem) strength to strength.

So that if you concentrate your resources in those established footballing areas where these will produce the best results, then you can hope to build outwards from there.


Meanwhile the current Junior Cup holders are Cockhill Celtic from Donegal, who beat Wexford club Gorey in the last final. That would be the same Cockhill Celtic who back in September lost to Enniskillen Rangers in the Presidents Cup Final, a trophy contested between the IFA and FAI Junior Cup Champions?
https://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/news-detail/10092196/

For information, Ekn Rgrs are one of five football clubs in a town of 14k people, which incidentally has one GAA club and one Rugby club. I'd venture that their (self-owned) ground is better than that of many (most? all?) of those Intermediate clubs you mention, yet they are a resolutely Junior club in NI terms.

The point being that as the pyramid in NI has developed over the last couple of decades, it has done so by first spreading out from the existing centres of football - Belfast, Antrim, Mid-Ulster etc - then into newer, less traditional areas, to incorporate the likes of Dungannon Swifts, Ballinamallard Utd and Warrenpoint Tn.

I have no doubt that had the IFA attempted to parachute such clubs into the upper tiers of IL from the start, rather than requiring them to work their way up to Senior status as and when they merited it, then they'd have died on their arse long before they got there.

[EalingGreen]

Such as?It was a rhetorical question.

But on the basis that there must be some reason(s), I'm merely wondering what those might be.

I'll leave it to others with much greater knowledge than me to suggest exactly what they must be.

Unless, of course, you or someone else can assure me that there are no reasons at all, it is solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even.

[EatYerGreens]

I was referring to the growth of the existing (Senior) Dublin clubs. You know, Shams, Bohs, Shels and Pats, clubs which are going from (ahem) strength to strength.

So that if you concentrate your resources in those established footballing areas where these will produce the best results, then you can hope to build outwards from there.

Got you. Though you did state it in a sentence where your list included the Connacht and Ulster senior/non-leagues. And another poster (BigEars) similarly responded to you in the belief that you were referring to Dublin non-league clubs as well.


That would be the same Cockhill Celtic who back in September lost to Enniskillen Rangers in the Presidents Cup Final, a trophy contested between the IFA and FAI Junior Cup Champions?
https://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/news-detail/10092196/

For information, Ekn Rgrs are one of five football clubs in a town of 14k people, which incidentally has one GAA club and one Rugby club. I'd venture that their (self-owned) ground is better than that of many (most? all?) of those Intermediate clubs you mention, yet they are a resolutely Junior club in NI terms.

The point being that as the pyramid in NI has developed over the last couple of decades, it has done so by first spreading out from the existing centres of football - Belfast, Antrim, Mid-Ulster etc - then into newer, less traditional areas, to incorporate the likes of Dungannon Swifts, Ballinamallard Utd and Warrenpoint Tn.

I have no doubt that had the IFA attempted to parachute such clubs into the upper tiers of IL from the start, rather than requiring them to work their way up to Senior status as and when they merited it, then they'd have died on their arse long before they got there.

Enniskillen Rangers - who aren't a Dublin club either. So thanks for reinforcing my point here :D

Good to see you making their case for membership of the new National League North though. Hopefully they follow up on your proposal.

[EatYerGreens]

It was a rhetorical question.

But on the basis that there must be some reason(s), I'm merely wondering what those might be.

I'll leave it to others with much greater knowledge than me to suggest exactly what they must be.

Unless, of course, you or someone else can assure me that there are no reasons at all, it is solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even.

Well from your last line you're clearly insinuating that there is some reason(s) behind it all.

Mullingar Town and especially Mullingar Athletic famously both wanted to join the LOI at the turn of this century - with Athletic bringing over a load of Londonders to play for them to boost their team as part of this. Athletic came very close to replacing St Francis in 2002 when the FAI asked for expressions of interest from quite a few clubs. But they were eventually pipped to the place by the formation of Kildare County instead, after which the Mullingar clubs seemed to lose interest. So that would probably clear up the mystery for one of those towns you listed anyway.

I've personaly never heard of any clubs in Portlaoise or Ennis having any interest in joinging rhe LOI (others may know differently), which is probably just the very simple answer to those places. Portlaoise (to an extent) and especially Ennis are not particularly strong footballing towns or counties anyway. Plus Portlaoise wasn't a particularly big place anyway until about 20 or so years ago, but has experienced rapid population growth since.

Navan gets mentioned every so often as a possible place for a Meath LOI entrant by a certain former FAI chief, but that has yet to actually turn into anything : ‘Full launch’ of League of Ireland club in Meath on horizon | Meath Chronicle (https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2024/01/03/full-launch-of-league-of-ireland-club-in-meath-on-horizon/)

Any other large towns across the country you want to hint at dubious reasons for their absence from the LOI? :p Tullamore? Carlow? Castlebar? Letterkenny? Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even? Or to quote that great football philosopher Tom Jones, is it simply that it's not unusual?

[joey B]

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/soccer/1717094/donegal-clubs-considering-national-league-applications.html

Bonagee United also interested in entering the new league along with Letterkenny and Cockhill ….

[pineapple stu]

Did someone say Mervue, Salthill and Galway...?

The hazard of an invitational league as opposed to an open pyramid

[EatYerGreens]

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/soccer/1717094/donegal-clubs-considering-national-league-applications.html

Bonagee United also interested in entering the new league along with Letterkenny and Cockhill ….

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

Chuck in Fanad and the National League North starts to look like a Donegal invitational tournament :D

[EalingGreen]

Got you. Though you did state it in a sentence where your list included the Connacht and Ulster senior/non-leagues. And another poster (BigEars) similarly responded to you in the belief that you were referring to Dublin non-league clubs as well.
My point was that when the present four Senior Dublin clubs can thrive as they so clearly are, and with Greater Dublin being so big and wealthy a footballing centre as it clearly is, then surely it offers potential for wider growth beyond the confines of those four clubs? After all, Belfast can sustain four Senior clubs in the Premiership, plus another three in the Championship.



Enniskillen Rangers - who aren't a Dublin club either. So thanks for reinforcing my point here :D

Good to see you making their case for membership of the new National League North though. Hopefully they follow up on your proposal.My point about the Presidents Cup/ERFC comparison is that it shows Cockhill to be a small club in a small town (no offence to either), and as such are miles short in every respect of even FD clubs in the LOI. Therefore it is extremely hard to see how they could be competitive as a (genuinely) third level club, never mind able to survive if they somehow should get promoted.

Which is not to say that they, and Donegal generally, could never support a second Senior club, since as a county, it does appear to "get" football, despite its distance from the other main footballing centres in ROI. But parachuting a little club like Cockhill into the new set-up in such a way is a huge risk to the club itself (see past failures), while doing nothing for the establishment of a genuine third tier in a pyramid.

Far better to require/assist them to build from the bottom up over time, in competition with the best of other aspiring clubs, and regardless of where they're located, whether it be Dublin 2 or Achill Island!

[EalingGreen]

Well from your last line you're clearly insinuating that there is some reason(s) behind it all.
I don't pretend to know what those reasons are, but there must be some explanation(s) why eg Ballybofey/Stranorlor have sustained Senior football for over half a century, while Letterkenny with x 4 the population never has.

The point being that unless/until those reasons are identified and addressed, then such unrepresented towns/areas must be very unlikely to be able to support a new Senior club, whether it be newly created or an existing club suddenly elevated from Junior status.



Any other large towns across the country you want to hint at dubious reasons for their absence from the LOI? :p Tullamore? Carlow? Castlebar? Letterkenny? Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even? Or to quote that great football philosopher Tom Jones, is it simply that it's not unusual?As I say, I'm not qualified to speculate on those other towns, never mind insinuating that whatever reasons there are must be "dubious".

As for Antrim, the town did in fact have a Senior club for a number of years, Chimney Corner FC, who moved up and between the second and third tiers, before finally dropping down to Intermediate football just over a decade ago. The ostensible reason was that they could not promise to meet the IFA's new requirements following a further league reorganisation etc, but in practice it was probably because Antrim, a town of 25k, already has another 5 or 6 football clubs, thereby diluting resources in the same way as you see eg in Enniskillen.

As for Newtownabbey, while technically a "town", in practice it is a collection of villages, overspill from Belfast and general urban sprawl that didn't really exist until the very late 1950's - effectively a new town. As such, footballing loyalties and identities either lay with larger, long-existing clubs in the wider area, or have been diluted amongst existing Junior clubs within Newtwonabbey itself.

All of which is why the IFA has never attempted to promote or create a Senior club from either town, instead if they are to achieve Senior status, they must do it the same way as everyone else i.e. working their way up the pyramid.

[nigel-harps1954]

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

Chuck in Fanad and the National League North starts to look like a Donegal invitational tournament :D

There's as much chance of Foot.ie United as there is of Fanad United joining the national league. There's been zero suggestion of it other than nintendo64 here

[brendy_éire]

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

I'd say that Cockhill is different area than the two Letterkenny clubs, TBF, who themselves aren't far from Ballybofey.
As pointed out, that's the problem with an invitational league. Can the FAI turn them down simply because they're close to another club? Probably not.

[BigEars]

My point was that when the present four Senior Dublin clubs can thrive as they so clearly are, and with Greater Dublin being so big and wealthy a footballing centre as it clearly is, then surely it offers potential for wider growth beyond the confines of those four clubs? After all, Belfast can sustain four Senior clubs in the Premiership, plus another three in the Championship.

Far better to require/assist them to build from the bottom up over time, in competition with the best of other aspiring clubs, and regardless of where they're located, whether it be Dublin 2 or Achill Island!

Okay, now I'm getting confused, because you had said the Dublin region should get priority and more emphasis put on it than other parts of the country. But you've always so said "look to strengthen and expand by encouraging and rewarding the most progressive clubs via a pyramid, irrespective of where they are located."

Currently clubs in Munster (and Donegal) have been outperforming ones in Dublin in Intermediate and Junior Cups. Some of those clubs have better infrastructure as well.

So what exactly is your proposal, give Dublin an advantage because currently they've got more strong senior clubs ?, or allow a natural pyramid that lets the best clubs rise to the top ?

[legendz]

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO.

Sounds like history repeating itself. When the academy leagues have mainly only allowed clubs, previously clubs or entities, from non LoI areas, seems desperation and madness not to extend the same to the Third Tier.

[Shinkicker]

I don't pretend to know what those reasons are, but there must be some explanation(s) why eg Ballybofey/Stranorlor have sustained Senior football for over half a century, while Letterkenny with x 4 the population never has.

The point being that unless/until those reasons are identified and addressed, then such unrepresented towns/areas must be very unlikely to be able to support a new Senior club, whether it be newly created or an existing club suddenly elevated from Junior status.

As I say, I'm not qualified to speculate on those other towns, never mind insinuating that whatever reasons there are must be "dubious".

As for Antrim, the town did in fact have a Senior club for a number of years, Chimney Corner FC, who moved up and between the second and third tiers, before finally dropping down to Intermediate football just over a decade ago. The ostensible reason was that they could not promise to meet the IFA's new requirements following a further league reorganisation etc, but in practice it was probably because Antrim, a town of 25k, already has another 5 or 6 football clubs, thereby diluting resources in the same way as you see eg in Enniskillen.

As for Newtownabbey, while technically a "town", in practice it is a collection of villages, overspill from Belfast and general urban sprawl that didn't really exist until the very late 1950's - effectively a new town. As such, footballing loyalties and identities either lay with larger, long-existing clubs in the wider area, or have been diluted amongst existing Junior clubs within Newtwonabbey itself.

All of which is why the IFA has never attempted to promote or create a Senior club from either town, instead if they are to achieve Senior status, they must do it the same way as everyone else i.e. working their way up the pyramid.
Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.

[EalingGreen]

Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.Yep, even when I used to play a bit out that way, many years ago, Corner were a reasonably big name in local football circles.

And having fallen away since, as you say, they are now hampered from reviving by competition locally, with 3 or 4 clubs currently playing at the Antrim Forum alone.

[nr637]

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

[Martinho II]

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

yeah will read it on extratime in next while.

[EalingGreen]

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

[nr637]

I don't think the FAI will allow 2/3 clubs from the same area join the third tier such as Donegal or Galway. It will only cause conflict. I think Galway United have a good relationship now with league football in the County and it's similar with Finn Harps especially with their stadium saga which will be for the benefit for all football in the area, if it was built!

[Elfman]

From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

Agreed, and I think that's where we would differ from the North's ability to bring in big structural changes relatively quickly.

While Leinster is convoluted, it's also still powerful and can block changes to the game that it dislikes. The Leinster FA alone has the same number of votes at the General Assembly as all the Premier Division teams combined.

[EatYerGreens]

I'd say that Cockhill is different area than the two Letterkenny clubs, TBF, who themselves aren't far from Ballybofey.
As pointed out, that's the problem with an invitational league. Can the FAI turn them down simply because they're close to another club? Probably not.

Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.

[EatYerGreens]

Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.

It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.

[EatYerGreens]

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

What's the gist?

[EatYerGreens]

From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

In fairness, a number of people on here have tried to tell you this on a number of occasions in response to your various lectures about the LOI not having a pyramid. It's much easier to talk about on forum than it is to deliver in reality.

[Shinkicker]

It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.
I never mentioned senior nor the pyramid system , I purely commented on their demise, how quickly it happened and their current situation.

[EatYerGreens]

I never mentioned senior nor the pyramid system , I purely commented on their demise, how quickly it happened and their current situation.

I never said you did. It was addressed to EalingGreen, who made the orignal post/reference to them. That's what your post was responding to (with my post an addiiton to it).

[Shinkicker]

I never said you did. It was addressed to EalingGreen, who made the orignal post/reference to them. That's what your post was responding to (with my post an addiiton to it).
Well, you should have responded directly to the EG post directly and your post made absolutely no addition to mine. Your use of the "not credible" would imply I use false information or I'm not to be trusted. Both of which are untrue. Please be more selective of you use of words.

[EalingGreen]

It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid."The 2008–09 season was spent in the IFA Interim Intermediate League, but [Chimney Corner FC] gained admission to the Championship in 2009, when it was split into two divisions (Corner entering Championship 2). The club remained at this level until 2014, when they resigned to join the Ballymena & Provincial League."

And if you look at the recent history of the Championship, you will see that is exactly what it was/is, a part of the pyramid, incl CCFC for their final few years at that level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIFL_Championship

The wider point being (a ) that the town of Antrim has had Senior representation, if only short-lived, (b ) if CCFC or any other local club can get their act together to reach Senior status there is as process for them to do so, and (c ) the operation of a proper pyramid requires contant re-evaluation and reorganisation if it is to continue to offer the intended benefits.

[EalingGreen]

Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.
Dundee FC and Dundee United FC:

https://scontent.fbhx1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/470237534_610469831330452_1483473489961804135_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=muxSvWInsl8Q7kNvgGr0Tk0&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fbhx1-2.fna&_nc_gid=AjxyxZtcHGphH1rF4ZVDt_F&oh=00_AYBv9bS2nG6wvKMvc5n_r6LriwaTISkSvApB-DQSsA33Fw&oe=67A5D510

Proximity needn't matter a damn providing the clubs in question are/were properly organised and sustainable within their own resources and support.

[EatYerGreens]

Well, you should have responded directly to the EG post directly and your post made absolutely no addition to mine. Your use of the "not credible" would imply I use false information or I'm not to be trusted. Both of which are untrue. Please be more selective of you use of words.

Honestly buddy, you need to get over yourself here :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even?I meant to add that as well as everything else, Newtownabbey has never had, and Antrim town currently doesn't have, a Senior club in the NIFL because no-one has ever considered parachuting a new or existing club from either into the pyramid.

[EatYerGreens]

I meant to add that as well as everything else, Newtownabbey has never had, and Antrim town currently doesn't have, a Senior club in the NIFL because no-one has ever considered parachuting a new or existing club from either into the pyramid.

So you're basically answering your own question here. The places you mentioned haven't had an LOI club because either no-one has tried to get one admitted into the league, or they tried and weren't successful. It realy is as simple as that.

It really feels like everything you say on this issue has an air of smug hectoring and superiority over the whole pyramid issue. The LOI is where it is, and those who understand football in the country understand why that is. It seems that even yourself is now finally grasping the complications involved in changing the entire structure. Yet change is still slowly but surely happening. So please spare us the constant jibes and snipes about it all in the meantime. It will just take our league longer to be as amazeballs as everything up in the north clearly/allegedly is :cool:

[EalingGreen]

It really feels like everything you say on this issue has an air of smug hectoring and superiority over the whole pyramid issue. The LOI is where it is, and those who understand football in the country understand why that is. It seems that even yourself is now finally grasping the complications involved in changing the entire structure. Yet change is still slowly but surely happening. So please spare us the constant jibes and snipes about it all in the meantime. It will just take our league longer to be as amazeballs as everything up in the north clearly/allegedly is :cool:

Football in NI and ROI share history, tradition and similar cultures etc, which is why I enjoy reading and contributing to some, though by no mean all, sections of this forum. (That and a nerdy interest in these things generally).

As such, I have never denied or downplayed those several advantages which the LOI has over the NIFL - eg drive towards professionalism, advances in Europe, rising attendances etc - and would hope the latter could learn lessons from them.

But such an exchange is not all one-way: most notably when it comes to the establishment and operation of a pyramid, something which the IFA have managed quite well in NI, in stark contrast to the FAI's efforts as discussed in this thread.

On which point, I have no doubt that my contributions must bore the majority of posters but some, at least, seem keen to engage - see eg 'Elfman' #93 or 'pineapple stu' #106. But whereas they do so in an interested and reasonable way, you seem to take any criticism personally i.e. my "jibes and snipes etc" are in reality your over-sensitivity and unwillingness to accept you may sometimes get things wrong - eg Bangor being part of Belfast, Australia/Brazil having rural populations, Antrim never having had a Senior club (just 3 examples of many off the top of my head).

So may I ask that you stop "playing the man" and instead "play the ball"?

[EatYerGreens]

Football in NI and ROI share history, tradition and similar cultures etc, which is why I enjoy reading and contributing to some, though by no mean all, sections of this forum. (That and a nerdy interest in these things generally).

As such, I have never denied or downplayed those several advantages which the LOI has over the NIFL - eg drive towards professionalism, advances in Europe, rising attendances etc - and would hope the latter could learn lessons from them.

But such an exchange is not all one-way: most notably when it comes to the establishment and operation of a pyramid, something which the IFA have managed quite well in NI, in stark contrast to the FAI's efforts as discussed in this thread.

On which point, I have no doubt that my contributions must bore the majority of posters but some, at least, seem keen to engage - see eg 'Elfman' #93 or 'pineapple stu' #106. But whereas they do so in an interested and reasonable way, you seem to take any criticism personally i.e. my "jibes and snipes etc" are in reality your over-sensitivity and unwillingness to accept you may sometimes get things wrong - eg Bangor being part of Belfast, Australia/Brazil having rural populations, Antrim never having had a Senior club (just 3 examples of many off the top of my head).

So may I ask that you stop "playing the man" and instead "play the ball"?

I look forward to the next in your series of posts which essentially translate as "Hey everyone - the LOI should have a pyramid. It's really shiit that it doesn't, and ater all - how hard can it be to set one up anyway? So I'll just keep on telling you that at every opportunity". Because as sure as night follows day, those posts will just keep on coming

[EalingGreen]

I look forward to the next in your series of posts which essentially translate as "Hey everyone - the LOI should have a pyramid. It's really shiit that it doesn't, and ater allThe LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?


how hard can it be to set one up anyway? So I'll just keep on telling you that at every opportunity".
I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

[EatYerGreens]

The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?


I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

And so it continues......:embarrassed:

[EalingGreen]

And so it continues......:embarrassed:Yep - I play the ball while you keep playing the man.

Anyhow:


[Insert Last Word here]

[BigEars]

The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?


I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

The A league was good as a concept but failed on several levels.
However fixing the Provincial leagues at the same time as creating a 3rd tier can lead to a proper pyramid.

Right now the jump for Junior and Intermediate clubs to Senior football is too big. As mentioned yourself in relation to Cockhill. The demands on the field and off them in terms of infrastructure is too high.

However on the other side, clubs in the A league couldn't be relegated, so a poorly performing club couldn't find their level.

There was too many reserve teams last time, and we didn't have the potential of clubs who've been entering League of Ireland underage leagues for several years entering a senior side.

I know you personally don't like the idea of Mayo FC, Carlow-Kilkenny, Kildare etc joining, as you don't see them as natural clubs.
But these are areas with an interest in football, and like most rural areas in the Republic, gravitate to thinking along county lines.

They all have more of a chance of doing well than Castlebar Celtic, Evergreen FC or Newbridge United.

[cobhlad]

Series of articles looking at the current football system across the country.

We have anything but a football pyramid at present..

Leinster - https://extratime.com/articles/35365/the-irish-football-pyramid-or-lack-of-part-4---leinster/

Connacht - https://extratime.com/articles/35139/the-irish-football-pyramid-or-lack-of-part-3---connacht/

Ulster - https://extratime.com/articles/35088/the-irish-football-pyramid-or-lack-of-part-2---ulster/

Munster - https://extratime.com/articles/35033/the-irish-football-pyramid-or-lack-of-part-1---munster/

[Elfman]

Thanks for this cobhlad, good to have them all in one place.

I enjoyed reading them, hoped for more detail but just the fact that info about the provincial leagues is becoming more widespread is a positive.

Side note - does anyone know the facility requirements for teams in the MSL or LSL? I assume the new National League will have the same requirements.

[Burnsie]

Thanks for this cobhlad, good to have them all in one place.

I enjoyed reading them, hoped for more detail but just the fact that info about the provincial leagues is becoming more widespread is a positive.

Side note - does anyone know the facility requirements for teams in the MSL or LSL? I assume the new National League will have the same requirements.

for intemediate level, the LSL officially requires a privately owned, fenced off pitch, but it's not enforced. A number of sides play in astros owned by the local authority (including in the top division last season) , and in other cases the fencing is just a series of poles stuck in the ground with some rope running in between, which gets taken down at full time

separately, I heard that one of the more storied and successful amateur clubs, TEK United, have folded their intermediate team.

[Elfman]

Thanks Burnsie, good to get clarification on that. And sorry to hear about TEK - always a sad day when a club has to fold a team.

What's your own thoughts on the National League - a step forward or another false dawn?

[Burnsie]

I've always been a fan of the idea in principle.

But I've seen first-hand over the many years the sheer parochialism and self-interest of the blazers who will ultimately have to promote (or at least acquiesce to) the plan.

And unless the FAI can produce a pot of gold to incentivise the clubs to join, I would imagine the third tier will be an odd backwater of B-teams and university sides with a handful of provincial clubs propping up the table

[legendz]

Anyone burned by the A Championship will be very sceptical of the proposed Third Tier. What's more - Mayo, CK and Kildare have put in the hard yards at academy level. Seems a weak foundation to bring in clubs who haven't put in those hard yards.

[JC_GUFC]

Series of articles looking at the current football system across the country.

We have anything but a football pyramid at present..

Connacht - https://extratime.com/articles/35139/the-irish-football-pyramid-or-lack-of-part-3---connacht/



The Sligo Leitrim and District League is the only league within the province that operates across multiple counties, although unsurprisingly Sligo constitutes the majority of its clubs. Finally Roscommon operates its own league.

Just on this there are numerous teams from Galway playing in the Roscommon League. Ballinasloe Town, Shiven Rovers, Moylough, Dunmore and Ballymoe in the top 2 divisions are all from County Galway.

I think the biggest barrier to a Connacht Senior League is cost. To me, it would make sense for the likes of Mervue, Salthill and Athenry in Galway to want to play against Castlebar Celtic, Westport, Boyle Celtic and the best sides in Sligo to play at a higher level. I really don't think the attraction of playing Corrib Rangers or Galway Hibs would be too much to give up but obviously travel costs, in particular, would increase.

[Elfman]

I've always been a fan of the idea in principle.

But I've seen first-hand over the many years the sheer parochialism and self-interest of the blazers who will ultimately have to promote (or at least acquiesce to) the plan.

And unless the FAI can produce a pot of gold to incentivise the clubs to join, I would imagine the third tier will be an odd backwater of B-teams and university sides with a handful of provincial clubs propping up the table

It's the biggest challenge for sure. My silver bullet suggestion for both was to make the national league strictly amateur with the attraction being the title of best amateur club.

I'm pretty sure that would work for Junior clubs like Mervue and Cockhill but is it naïve to think that intermediate clubs would go for that carrot?

[Elfman]

Anyone burned by the A Championship will be very sceptical of the proposed Third Tier. What's more - Mayo, CK and Kildare have put in the hard yards at academy level. Seems a weak foundation to bring in clubs who haven't put in those hard yards.

Of course and rightly so. However, although I'm a big fan of the national academy leagues, I would think the next step for them is to start encouraging existing clubs who want to play nationally to set them up.

Hopefully, an amateur 3rd tier would be the place to do that. Well, that or fill in the missing age gaps at U19, U18, U16 & U14!

[Elfman]

[i]

Just on this there are numerous teams from Galway playing in the Roscommon League. Ballinasloe Town, Shiven Rovers, Moylough, Dunmore and Ballymoe in the top 2 divisions are all from County Galway.

I think the biggest barrier to a Connacht Senior League is cost. To me, it would make sense for the likes of Mervue, Salthill and Athenry in Galway to want to play against Castlebar Celtic, Westport, Boyle Celtic and the best sides in Sligo to play at a higher level. I really don't think the attraction of playing Corrib Rangers or Galway Hibs would be too much to give up but obviously travel costs, in particular, would increase.

Good spot JC. I'm told there's no maternity ward in Roscommon so the argument could also be made that all the teams in that league are full of Galway lads! ;)

Just on the point about costs, I wonder how much is to do with prestige - ie. the big fish don't want to give up their small pond. No hotel needed if you're up and back same day, and am I right in saying 2hrs would be the furthest distance?

[BigEars]

It's the biggest challenge for sure. My silver bullet suggestion for both was to make the national league strictly amateur with the attraction being the title of best amateur club.

I'm pretty sure that would work for Junior clubs like Mervue and Cockhill but is it naïve to think that intermediate clubs would go for that carrot?

Frankly it'd be madness for the 3rd tier to be anything but amateur with small expenses at most. There's no way sufficient income would be there for clubs to be part-time or anything approaching what First Division clubs are now.

[Elfman]

Agreed but my understanding from earlier in the thread is that the Leinster Senior League already has part-time teams, which checks out with what I've heard.

I'd be of the view that this level should be focused on paying their coaches, maintaining youth teams across every age group and building infrastructure instead of paying players. I don't blame the players for taking a paying gig but would an LSL team show interest in a 3rd tier if they had to stop this practice?