Saipan - 20 Years On

[tetsujin1979]

It's dominated Irish football discussion for 20 years, and it's going to discussed at length for the next few weeks as we approach the 20 year anniversary of the Saipan incident

Still remember sitting in a computer lab in UL when I got a text from a friend of mine that Keane had been sent home - that was the words of the text, whatever actually happened is still up for debate. A friend had booked his flights, tickets, and accommodation for the World Cup, and was considering cancelling it all - he didn't and had an amazing time that he still talks about. Another guy I know was actually on a flight to Japan when it happened and didn't know anything until arriving in Tokyo!

For days (and weeks, and months, and years) afterwards it was top news on sports websites, I remember opening the Italian site sportal (who sponsored Juventus, I think?) and it was the headline story on the homepage.

[SkStu]

I was on a beach in Torremolinos with about 20 other Bohs fans when one of the lads got a text or call from home with the news. We followed it for the next couple of days and there was plenty of split opinions and heated debates when the details were coming out!

We had been over there for an invitational football tournament in Seville which I believe, iirc, was to support a bid to host a UEFA cup final in the following years…had Sevilla, Betis, Crystal Palace, Copenhagen and a load of other teams.

Anyway, for me I was resolutely in the McCarthy camp and felt it was the ultimate betrayal by a player. At the time it felt like the sort of stuff you’d read about from a South American, Dutch or Spanish team and have a chuckle about how it would never happen to a team like ours. It was a game changer for us in that regard. But yeah, I was and remained in the McCarthy camp.

[ontheotherhand]

I was on a beach in Torremolinos with about 20 other Bohs fans when one of the lads got a text or call from home with the news. We followed it for the next couple of days and there was plenty of split opinions and heated debates when the details were coming out!

We had been over there for an invitational football tournament in Seville which I believe, iirc, was to support a bid to host a UEFA cup final in the following years…had Sevilla, Betis, Crystal Palace, Copenhagen and a load of other teams.

Anyway, for me I was resolutely in the McCarthy camp and felt it was the ultimate betrayal by a player. At the time it felt like the sort of stuff you’d read about from a South American, Dutch or Spanish team and have a chuckle about how it would never happen to a team like ours. It was a game changer for us in that regard. But yeah, I was and remained in the McCarthy camp.

Thanks be to jaysus I've found something to disagree with you on. It's always tough liking a post with that crest on it 😅

It caused mayhem in my group of lads. I was in the minority supporting Keane and it got so heated one night that we were kicked out of the pub!
Bizarre altogether looking back...I actually met the main friend I disagreed with recently and we went over it all again for the laugh. I still hold that it involved some of the worst man mgmt in sporting history. He remains unconvinced. 20 years have at least cooled the conversation though!

[John83]

So much time has passed that I don't remember the details. I remember how angry I was at Keane, and if time gave me a little perspective it never gave me enough to understand his walking out as anything but an act of sheer ego. It was his way or else.

Can anyone refresh my memory? As I remember, Keane got increasingly irate as the FAI's training camp turned out to be kicking a big ball of sellotape around a McDonalds car park or something. He exploded at an innocuous joke in a team meeting, called the manager a ... well, the Chinese say shabi ... and stormed off to walk his dog, stormed back in just long enough to prevent Colin Healy from registering as his replacement, and then stormed off again. I admired Keane on the pitch - it wasn't my legs he was trying to break after all - but he was a seething mess of neuroses and anger and I pity anyone who has to work with him.

[Eirambler]

I was always in the McCarthy camp and still am. Not that there wasn't anything that could have been done better in terms of training facilities, but part of me still thinks that if it wasn't that, it would have been something else, he just didn't want to be there that summer for whatever reason.

But even if that was purely the reason, he should have played on for the duration of the world cup and then retired after the tournament if he was that unhappy playing for Ireland.


I felt the animosity and division the whole thing caused in Irish football died down a bit after the MON/Keano era turned sour. He showed his true colours again during that time and that made it harder than ever to defend his actions in Saipan. I think he lost a lot of long-standing support at that point and him and O'Neill being replaced by McCarthy to the disappointment of pretty much nobody was probably the final knockout blow that decided the argument.

With his media gig now he is more of a caricature than a serious football person anyway.

[pineapple stu]

I was always in the McCarthy camp and still am. Not that there wasn't anything that could have been done better in terms of training facilities, but part of me still thinks that if it wasn't that, it would have been something else, he just didn't want to be there that summer for whatever reason.
I'd echo this alright.

It always annoyed me a little bit that the Saipan training camp was - as far as I know anyway - just somewhere to take a bit of a break for a few days between the end of the club season and the start of World Cup training proper. OK, I think the complaints about Saipan were maybe valid, but the actual base in Japan was perfect. So yeah, the professional approach was to raise any concerns internally if he wanted, but suck it up for a couple of days' light training and head to the real base then.

[ontheotherhand]

So much time has passed that I don't remember the details. I remember how angry I was at Keane, and if time gave me a little perspective it never gave me enough to understand his walking out as anything but an act of sheer ego. It was his way or else.

Can anyone refresh my memory? As I remember, Keane got increasingly irate as the FAI's training camp turned out to be kicking a big ball of sellotape around a McDonalds car park or something. He exploded at an innocuous joke in a team meeting, called the manager a ... well, the Chinese say shabi ... and stormed off to walk his dog, stormed back in just long enough to prevent Colin Healy from registering as his replacement, and then stormed off again. I admired Keane on the pitch - it wasn't my legs he was trying to break after all - but he was a seething mess of neuroses and anger and I pity anyone who has to work with him.

Oh no. It's happening again. 😅

It wasn't an innocuous joke at a team meeting. It was a meeting called by McCarthy specifically to confront Keane about an interview he'd given where he criticized the training set up. He had every right to do so as captain and the one who'd almost single handedly dragged us to the tournament. Could have been dealt with in private but McCarthy had to make a statement. It was bizarre. Handled badly on both sides obviously but it was McCarthys job to manage Keane and he failed spectacularly.

But I've completely gotten over it and moved on. It's been 20 years. Completely over it. It's fine.

[third policeman]

Whatever gripes Keane had about the facilities, his deeply unpleasant personal attacks on McCarthy revealed an inherently nasty side to his character. McCarthy had got Ireland to the World Cup through a really difficult group from which we emerged unbeaten. Keane played his part, but the lack of respect for the manager and ultimately for his teammates and the Irish people was unforgivable. Great player but flawed character and decidedly mediocre manager and pundit.

[seanfhear]

Keane is a bit of a Knob and the next time one of ye fellas see him make sure to tell him that ! !

[ontheotherhand]

For the love of God close the thread tets. I cant do it again!

[John83]

Oh no. It's happening again. 
It'd be a ****e thread if we all just stood around agreeing that the whole thing was a mess. ;)


It wasn't an innocuous joke at a team meeting. It was a meeting called by McCarthy specifically to confront Keane about an interview he'd given where he criticized the training set up. He had every right to do so as captain and the one who'd almost single handedly dragged us to the tournament. Could have been dealt with in private but McCarthy had to make a statement. It was bizarre. Handled badly on both sides obviously but it was McCarthys job to manage Keane and he failed spectacularly.
Cheers, I'd forgotten about The Interview. I can see some merit in all that; like I said, I gained some perspective on it over time, without ceasing to blame Keane mostly.


But I've completely gotten over it and moved on. It's been 20 years. Completely over it. It's fine.
There are going to be a few thousand yard stares as people read through this, for sure.

[Snapshot]

Xhttps://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/may/01/world-cup-moments-roy-keane-ireland-exit

This is the best piece I‘ve read on the issue in recent years (The Guardian). It deals with all the twists and turns. Even Will Smith gets a jersey.

[ontheotherhand]

It's a good account alright. It does breeze over the main incident a bit i.e. the meeting called where Keane erupted after McCarthy called him out. But it gets most of it and gives plenty of Keane's voice. Not sure about the comment that people's main gripe with the FAI was that they favoured Dublin players though......of all the things they've done and not done I'd have that pretty low on my list of complaints.

[Snapshot]

It's a good account alright. It does breeze over the main incident a bit i.e. the meeting called where Keane erupted after McCarthy called him out. But it gets most of it and gives plenty of Keane's voice. Not sure about the comment that people's main gripe with the FAI was that they favoured Dublin players though......of all the things they've done and not done I'd have that pretty low on my list of complaints.
The biggest loser was Irish soccer. With Keane leading the side and at full throttle, I believe Ireland would have beaten that Spain side over 90 minutes and then been a sporting chance to defeat South Korea. Reaching a WC semi would have represented a powerful foundation on which to build something we’d likely be benefiting from now. Instead we have the debacle that was Saipan, a massive smear and a classic case of shooting one’s self in both feet. The FAI’s appalling lack of professionalism coupled with Keane’s feral arrogance was and remains a national embarrassment.

[seanfhear]

The biggest loser was Irish soccer. With Keane leading the side and at full throttle, I believe Ireland would have beaten that Spain side over 90 minutes and then been a sporting chance to defeat South Korea. Reaching a WC semi would have represented a powerful foundation on which to build something we’d likely be benefiting from now. Instead we have the debacle that was Saipan, a massive smear and a classic case of shooting one’s self in both feet. The FAI’s appalling lack of professionalism coupled with Keane’s feral arrogance was and remains a national embarrassment.
It certainly was a World Cup Finals of opportunity. Not that many very good teams and an opportunity that is unlikely to fall to a Country like Ireland very often.

[ontheotherhand]

The biggest loser was Irish soccer. With Keane leading the side and at full throttle, I believe Ireland would have beaten that Spain side over 90 minutes and then been a sporting chance to defeat South Korea. Reaching a WC semi would have represented a powerful foundation on which to build something we’d likely be benefiting from now. Instead we have the debacle that was Saipan, a massive smear and a classic case of shooting one’s self in both feet. The FAI’s appalling lack of professionalism coupled with Keane’s feral arrogance was and remains a national embarrassment.

Yeah the team did great without him but he was absolutely sensational in qualifying and I agree we would have gotten past Spain with him at the helm. He was playing like a man possessed and would have dominated that spanish midfield which is where his feral arrogance was an asset. It got the best of him off the field but that's where I think he was badly managed. Sadly we will never really know. Even if it's just football and all that.

At least it started somewhat of a process that eventually caused some change at the FAI. Although I'm far from convinced they are approaching anything close to competency.

[Eirambler]

No question the squad upped their game after he left. Particularly Holland and Kinsella in midfield. So I'm not sure we would have done that much better or maybe any better if he had stayed - it might even have done more harm than good in terms of the atmosphere in the camp.

Maybe we'd have gotten past Spain (no way would we have gotten past Korea, the refs were giving them everything that tournament to get them to the last four), but at the same maybe it would have all come apart in the groups due to squad disharmony - I've seen that happen to better teams than that one at major finals in the past.

[ontheotherhand]

But did they up their game because he wasn't there or because we were at a finals? It's not as if he has a reputation as a bad captain. Bad manager maybe. Caustic teammate maybe. But anyone who played with him rates him as a captain. If he'd played I think he would have gotten us to even higher levels. But your point is completely fair and I can see the other side too. They certainly all did us proud. I thought I'd find it hard to enjoy after he left but it was a brilliant tournament in the end.

[Bottle of Tonic]

I was walking down O Connell street from the northside on my way to a pub shift when I saw the news on an Evening Herald board. Utter shock and disbelief. Can still remember it clear as day. What followed was several years of arguments and debate amongst my group of lads. I was 1000% against Roy. I couldn't comprehend how you'd walk out on your country on the eve of a World Cup. Still can't. By and large amongst my group the only ones supporting Roy were Man Utd fans.

[pineapple stu]

But did they up their game because he wasn't there or because we were at a finals?
It's the great question, and because it's impossible to answer really, I think it'll be debated for a while yet.

I be in Eirambler's camp in thinking the team rallied around and collectively improved. That said, Holland and Kinsella were solid Premier League midfielders we'd kill for today.

Spain battered us for the first half and had a couple of goals ruled out for offside. We were really living dangerously for a good while. But they weren't the side they went on to be; they were still flaky underachievers. It's so easy to imagine us getting that extra bit to edge past them - especially in extra time when they were down to ten, even though we were well on top by that stage anyway - and a quarterfinal against South Korea makes it so easy to imagine a semifinal spot against a side we'd already drawn against.

But the Holland win in qualifying strongly suggested Keane and McCarthy weren't seeing eye to eye, and you let that fester for a three-week World Cup camp (much longer than a qualification call-up) and you could see the strain taking away from the squad too.

[tetsujin1979]

For the love of God close the thread tets. I cant do it again!
With the anniversary coming up, it's going to be discussed no matter what. May as well get it over with.

[DCWA]

To me Roy Keane cost Ireland our only ever shot at a world cup final and has went on to reconfirm my opinion of him as nothing but a horrible person multiple times over, a stain on Ireland and Irish football.

[dynamo kerry]

There has been no catharsis on this topic. The only bit of that irish times article I liked was when they listened ogbene (aged 5) which is an old joke of the IT letters page when some effort was tagged with "joe Murphy (aged 7)."

Part of the problem is we are all still reeling from years of FAI mismanagement which to a degree proves Roy and Mick were massively undermined by a ****e organisation.

2 flawed individuals who missed an opportunity to come together on their best attributes instead they ended up clashing on their worst. Clearly they both tried over a long period to make it work and saipan was the long coming eruption.

We were all losers in this. Massive shame. I refuse though to cast out any individual because they failed to manage themselves perfectly. Football is professional but there's an added emotional aspect it and especially to international football.

What a time though.

[tetsujin1979]

From what I remember from the inquest into it (was that the Genesis report??) Keane had missed the testimonial against Sunderland for treatment on an injury. It was explained at the team meet up for the testimonial that the trip to Saipan was to recover from the season, and the actual preparation for the tournament would take place in Japan. If Keane had been at that meeting, if he had known that whatever facilities were used in Saipan would be temporary, maybe he'd have let it go.

There was a barbeque with journalists at the hotel as well, that he either didn't attend or only showed his face at, and was not impressed with the sick heads among the squad the next day.

At training, where Steve Finnan injured his ankle, there was a short game organised, but the goalkeepers had already gone through their warm down so didn't want to take part. Keane held a grudge against Shay Given for years because of this.

After the team meeting, and Keane went back to his room, some of the players knocked at the door and said they agreed with him, but they wanted to play at the World Cup. Can't remember who else was there, but one was definitely David Connolly, and he went on to sign for Keane at Sunderland.

[pineapple stu]

From what I remember from the inquest into it (was that the Genesis report??)
Yeah, the first one, which Delaney said he'd implement in full or resign. He never did either.

Genesis II was into the LoI, and was an appallingly amateur effort which makes me wonder about Genesis I.

The Genesis Reporter then was a short-lived Ireland fanzine by a few guys here on foot.ie (Troy McClure the main person behind it as I recall, though a few others contributed, myself included)

Appropriately enough, the YBIG fanzine came on the scene at around the same time, which led to the split from foot to a new forum (YBIG.ie) as I recall. Maybe it's just our national character!

[seanfhear]

Yeah, the first one, which Delaney said he'd implement in full or resign. He never did either.

Genesis II was into the LoI, and was an appallingly amateur effort which makes me wonder about Genesis I.

The Genesis Reporter then was a short-lived Ireland fanzine by a few guys here on foot.ie (Troy McClure the main person behind it as I recall, though a few others contributed, myself included)

Appropriately enough, the YBIG fanzine came on the scene at around the same time, which led to the split from foot to a new forum (YBIG.ie) as I recall. Maybe it's just our national character!
“ “ The Split “ "

[NeverFeltBetter]

I was in school - must have been the end of second year I suppose? - when the news went round the classes like a wildfire, but it was very contrasting: he'd quit, he left of his own accord, he was already coming back. I remember thinking in the moment it must be a load of ******** because Keane wasn't going to give up what could have been his last chance to appear at a World Cup. The man was my hero, but when the whistle blew against Cameroon and it became impossible to act as if it could all be fixed that all ended. In a grander sense, that was my first real understanding of how messed up the whole FAI/senior side set-up could really be. It was like Nixon's Presidency, after that your whole view of the institution is tarnished.

Firmly in the McCarthy camp myself, and only more so as time has gone on and more stories about Keane's temperament and behaviour (for Ireland and his clubs) come out. Keane had legit gripes, but aired them the wrong way. McCarthy should have thought better at calling him out in front of the team, but Keane's response to that was ridiculous, and proof of both a lingering resentment that it feels like he'd been waiting to let loose on and a truly enormous ego. Given that he had famously told Alex Ferguson he was going to the World Cup to win it, his decision to leave still seems bizarre two decades on, and reflects very poorly on him in my opinion.

It's really hard to say how we would have got on with him in the team. People are saying we would have beaten Spain, then South Korea, but given the way the officiating went in the QF I have my doubts. A deeper question for me is if we could have beaten Cameroon and Germany with him in the team! Then it would have been Paraguay in the R16, then the US...who knows.

In the end no team is one man and Ireland did perfectly well without him, a few kicks of a ball away from a QF. But Keane was the very best player in what I would argue was probably our strongest squad ever, and it's still heartbreaking to think on what might have been.

Edit: I've also always thought it worth remembering that Keane was used to a set-up, through Manchester United, that was top tier for the game, which presumably always informed his thinking of the national side. That said, it's also worth remembering that Keane went into that post-season on the back of a very disappointing league campaign for United, their three-in-a-row streak ended by Arsenal at Old Trafford, and then finishing third behind Liverpool. I'd imagine he wasn't in the best of humour's anyway.

[Exgrad]

https://goo.gl/maps/xu3ja5nF68PEsRn67

Here's where Ireland were preparing their players for the World Cup.

[ULsurvey1]

I wonder did they upgrade the facilities after all the Ireland upheaval...

[tetsujin1979]

Yeah, the first one, which Delaney said he'd implement in full or resign. He never did either.One of the lesser remembered repercussions of Saipan was bringing Delaney into the public eye for the first time. He was the highest ranking FAI official left in the country because everybody else was either in Japan, or Saipan, so he was the centre of every press conference held in Dublin


Genesis II was into the LoI, and was an appallingly amateur effort which makes me wonder about Genesis I.

The Genesis Reporter then was a short-lived Ireland fanzine by a few guys here on foot.ie (Troy McClure the main person behind it as I recall, though a few others contributed, myself included)

Appropriately enough, the YBIG fanzine came on the scene at around the same time, which led to the split from foot to a new forum (YBIG.ie) as I recall. Maybe it's just our national character!

I think I may have a copy of the Genisis Reporter somewhere. It usually turns up when I'm looking for something else. IIRC, the YBIG fanzine had some support from the Star, and some of the pseudonyms in the "thanks" section were clearly reporters with the paper at the time

[Eirambler]

Yeah, the first one, which Delaney said he'd implement in full or resign. He never did either.

Genesis II was into the LoI, and was an appallingly amateur effort which makes me wonder about Genesis I.

The Genesis Reporter then was a short-lived Ireland fanzine by a few guys here on foot.ie (Troy McClure the main person behind it as I recall, though a few others contributed, myself included)

Appropriately enough, the YBIG fanzine came on the scene at around the same time, which led to the split from foot to a new forum (YBIG.ie) as I recall. Maybe it's just our national character!

So, in terms of this split is foot.ie Keane or McCarthy? The BDO or the PDC?

[Eirambler]

I wonder did they upgrade the facilities after all the Ireland upheaval...

Going off the aerial images on Google maps I'm going to say they didn't.

[pineapple stu]

So, in terms of this split is foot.ie Keane or McCarthy? The BDO or the PDC?
The original and best, and maybe sadly dying away over the years. So definitely the BDO!

Thinking again about whether we upped our game for the World Cup in general or specifically to rally around in adversity, and of course we lost our next two competitive games (against Switzerland and Russia), which saw McCarthy sacked. You wonder if that suggests we over-performed without Keane in 2002?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Certainly some players strove to fill the gap in those few weeks. There was a point to prove that Keane wasn't the be all and end all, and I remember people saying the draw with Germany was a justification for that viewpoint (though it should be remembered they were only four rankings places above us at the time).

[Stuttgart88]

My mobile phone bill was colossal that month. Long before internet radio so I'd call my pals in Ireland daily at 6pm for the RTE news and would stay on the line for ages. I think the RTE website crashed a lot due to traffic.

I'll never forget the sheer excitement of the build up from end of season onwards but when Keane didn't show up for Quinn's testimonial it was obvious something was up. I was driving and heard it on 5 Live radio and I think from that moment on there was some doubt in everyone's minds about Keane's state of mind.

[Snapshot]

There has been no catharsis on this topic. The only bit of that irish times article I liked was when they listened ogbene (aged 5) which is an old joke of the IT letters page when some effort was tagged with "joe Murphy (aged 7)."

Part of the problem is we are all still reeling from years of FAI mismanagement which to a degree proves Roy and Mick were massively undermined by a ****e organisation.

2 flawed individuals who missed an opportunity to come together on their best attributes instead they ended up clashing on their worst. Clearly they both tried over a long period to make it work and saipan was the long coming eruption.

We were all losers in this. Massive shame. I refuse though to cast out any individual because they failed to manage themselves perfectly. Football is professional but there's an added emotional aspect it and especially to international football.

What a time though.
On the flawed-individuals comment - wasn't this chalk and cheese? McCarthy could on occasions be irasible but he came across generally as a decent, likeable man. No major issues. His players at club and international level (bar one!) seemed to like him whereas those at Sunderland and Ipswich apparently threw celebration parties when Keane departed. Indeed, Keane had myriad rows at all his clubs. He also pushed the envelop a bit with Jack. There's flawed and there's flawed.

[osarusan]

I was already in Japan - I'd moved there about 6 months earlier, and had chosen Japan over S. Korea as Ireland's games would there (always nice to remind my wife of the importance of football in our family history when she laments me heading off to Dublin or Athlone or Cobh or wherever).

Mysteriously, the topic of football seemed to come up in a few of my classes, and it was students who told me about it as I was already in work when the story made the news (much less of a story in Japan than Ireland, obviously).

When we were knocked out by Spain a few weeks later, I had students coming up to me to commiserate as if a family member had died.

[Diggs246]

I was already in Japan - I'd moved there about 6 months earlier, and had chosen Japan over S. Korea as Ireland's games would there (always nice to remind my wife of the importance of football in our family history when she laments me heading off to Dublin or Athlone or Cobh or wherever).

Mysteriously, the topic of football seemed to come up in a few of my classes, and it was students who told me about it as I was already in work when the story made the news (much less of a story in Japan than Ireland, obviously).

When we were knocked out by Spain a few weeks later, I had students coming up to me to commiserate as if a family member had died.

I was there for the rugby. ( 2019 Its a mad place!!

[pineapple stu]

On the flawed-individuals comment - wasn't this chalk and cheese? McCarthy could on occasions be irasible but he came across generally as a decent, likeable man. No major issues.
There was also the 1992 US Cup incident, don't forget, where McCarthy (as captain) challenged Keane for coming back drunk and after hours. Seems quite reasonable, but Keane's own account is that he told Mick to go **** himself that time too.

Fair bit about it here (http://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/row-boston-1992.htm), from all three sides (Roy, Mick, and Niall Quinn as someone to provide the middle ground view)

[NeverFeltBetter]

There was also the 1992 US Cup incident, don't forget, where McCarthy (as captain) challenged Keane for coming back drunk and after hours. Seems quite reasonable, but Keane's own account is that he told Mick to go **** himself that time too.

Fair bit about it here (http://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/row-boston-1992.htm), from all three sides (Roy, Mick, and Niall Quinn as someone to provide the middle ground view)

Really good resource.

I'm surprised there hasn't been an effort to dramatise the whole affair. I Keano was good fun, but the whole thing is ripe for one of them "local dramas" RTE is plugging so much recently.

The Boston incident and how it appears Keane let what should really have been a once-off bit of unpleasantness turn into this decade-long grudge reminds me of something that was said in Drive To Survive, about how the best F1 drivers have to indulge their "inner *******" to really succeed or Michael Jordan in The Last Dance, how he found ways to motivate himself by basically inventing rivalries with people, and pretending they had said and done things they hadn't. It's part of the reason Keane was as good as he was, that endless drive to be better than the enemy and if he needs teammates to do it then they'll basically be treated as enemies too until they aren't.

We're all very Ireland-centric here, but the whole thing basically repeated at United when he went on MUTV to slate a bunch of players in 2005 he didn't think were performing adequately, and the club's CEO had to have the thing pulled before airing, with Keane gone from the club in short order. He learned nothing from what happened three years previously.

[Razors left peg]

I still blame McCarthy all these years later. He knew what he was doing when he called Keane out in front of everyone. Over the years I've accepted more and more that Keane had plenty of blame too but I still think it could have been sorted enough to get through the World Cup.

Going to Saipan to start with was an absolute shambles, and probably a corrupt decision. It made no sense apart from someone somewhere making money off it.

[Fixer82]

My college girlfriend broke up with me and later on that day I heard the news that Keane was sent home.
That was a bad day!

I remember saying if I could only get one back I’d take Keano! Ha ha!

[Kingdom]

I still blame McCarthy all these years later. He knew what he was doing when he called Keane out in front of everyone. Over the years I've accepted more and more that Keane had plenty of blame too but I still think it could have been sorted enough to get through the World Cup.

Going to Saipan to start with was an absolute shambles, and probably a corrupt decision. It made no sense apart from someone somewhere making money off it.

Fancy a nip round the back of the sheds Razor. that's gorgeous!

[third policeman]

I still blame McCarthy all these years later. He knew what he was doing when he called Keane out in front of everyone. Over the years I've accepted more and more that Keane had plenty of blame too but I still think it could have been sorted enough to get through the World Cup.

Going to Saipan to start with was an absolute shambles, and probably a corrupt decision. It made no sense apart from someone somewhere making money off it.

Keane would have found another excuse. He gave the IT interview after allegedly changing his mind which is either weirdly inconsistent, or he was still intent on leaving or creating further disruption. I don’t see anything wrong in McCarthy calling a meeting of the entire squad. Keane owed all of them an explanation and an assurance that he was with them. However bad the facilities were, it’s no excuse for his behaviour. The idea that this somehow reflects his superior level of professionalism is an insult to his team mates many of whom consistently exhibited higher standards of professionalism throughout their careers.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Some have always felt that McCarthy shouldn't have targeted Keane in a team meeting, but he'd already had several private meetings with the man on various issues over the previous few days, and then when it looked like they might just get out of Saipan Keane went public with his criticisms of the team. Having done than I really don't think he can legitimately claim it was out of order for McCarthy to press him on the topic in front of others. The various accounts of Keane's rant really make it sound like something he'd had at the back of his mind for a long time, so part of me has always felt he was only too delighted for McCarthy to give him the opportunity to explode. Looking at the manner in which Keane jumped from "I'm going/I'm staying" over the previous few days, it's doubtful he would have lasted the World Cup.

[sbgawa]

Managers job is to get the best players on the pitch to give you the best chance of winning.
McCarthy obviously didn't prepare properly (having one of his team check out the facilities) or the facilities would have been up to scratch.
This is done routinely by any competent management team going to a finals.
Keane may be a tosser but he had reason to complain and shouldn't have had any reason if the Management team had done their job.......and i'm not a United fan :)

McCarthy .....guilty of poor preparation and not getting the best team on the pitch by confronting Keane when he should have said "Roy is right the conditions are ****".
.
Keane .....guilty of being a whingy fecker.

[ontheotherhand]

Some have always felt that McCarthy shouldn't have targeted Keane in a team meeting, but he'd already had several private meetings with the man on various issues over the previous few days, and then when it looked like they might just get out of Saipan Keane went public with his criticisms of the team. Having done than I really don't think he can legitimately claim it was out of order for McCarthy to press him on the topic in front of others. The various accounts of Keane's rant really make it sound like something he'd had at the back of his mind for a long time, so part of me has always felt he was only too delighted for McCarthy to give him the opportunity to explode. Looking at the manner in which Keane jumped from "I'm going/I'm staying" over the previous few days, it's doubtful he would have lasted the World Cup.

What criticisms of the team do you remember? The interview he gave was harmless enough, even funny at times and McCarthy blew it out of all proportion. They could have put it to bed over a cup of tea and moved on. Instead McCarthy tried to dress down his captain in front of the team. It was a really bizarre decision for me. Obviously stuff had been building and they don't seem to have ever seen eye to eye but again, it's one of the worst displays of man mgmt I can remember. If Keane hadn't been completely committed on the field it might be different but he was. Accusing him of faking injuries and calling him out in front of people like that was just the worst way to handle the situation.

You can read the interview here. (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/people-were-not-happy-but-life-goes-on-nobody-died-1.1058213)

Nothing in there attacking the team at all. He mentions the bust up with Kelly that they were laughing about together afterwards. He mentions something Quinn said previously. Nothing else about any players or the team in general. Nothing even about McCarthy himself really. The FAI are the main target if anyone is. And the media over the coverage he got for missing Quinn's testimonial. McCarthy took it personally though which says more about McCarthy than Keane to me. Both flawed but one was there to manage, flaws and all.

[ontheotherhand]

I'd forgotten this happened afterwards as well - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/jun/13/worldcupfootball2002.sport22

Mick went on to complain about the training facilities in Korea, the bags wouldn't fit on the bus and the players ended up unhappy that they were demoted to economy from their "Roy class" business seats for flights when he wasn't around to demand proper standards.

What a ****show it all was.

Glad I'm completely over it now. Just water off a ducks back it is. I'm fine. In no way seething still. At all like.

[Kingdom]

Lets not let the journalists away with things here either, particularly that pervy, greasy, cheesy, nasty, wretched leech who in later years disgraced himself, not to mention Tom Humphries :-)

When you think of the absolute decency (or maybe the absolute terror) amongst the journos a decade/generation earlier covering big Paul's many misdemeanors, would it have killed them knowing the **** it would cause to leave it alone for a couple of days?
And the Times of all papers - the one (honorable mention to dear Emmet Malone) who did and continues to do fleck all for irish football - to be the party-poopers.

[Kingdom]

Great thing about the Keane affair was that it deflected from Zahovic leaving the Slovenian camp for similar reasons. If we were reliant on Keane - we weren't as much - then Slovenia absolutely were reliant on zany Zlatko.