Saipan - 20 Years On

[Fixer82]

And Genesis report was supposed to make sure everything ran professionally after Saipan too.

[John83]

And Genesis report was supposed to make sure everything ran professionally after Saipan too.
It recommended an external CEO be appointed. Instead, Delaney was appointed by a panel that included himself. I didn't think much of the Genesis report when a group of us finally got our hands on it, but the FAI just hid behind it while ignoring it wholesale.

[seanfhear]

It recommended an external CEO be appointed. Instead, Delaney was appointed by a panel that included himself. I didn't think much of the Genesis report when a group of us finally got our hands on it, but the FAI just hid behind it while ignoring it wholesale.
Sounds just like how, Irish Politicians behave.

[jbyrne]

Keane mentioned in the book that McCarthy met him before the start of the 2002 qualifiers to discuss aspects of the preparation like this, but before the first qualifier away to the Netherlands, there was no pasta available for the team in the hotel, and he let the manager know exactly what he thought about this. Keane went back to his room and ordered a pizza IIRC.


i think this was later denied by Ray Treacy who organised the trip on behalf of the FAI. his side of the story was that the sandwiches were only a pre training snack and that a full dinner including pasta was available after the session.

possibly the best away performance that I can remember on the back of it all though!

[Fixer82]

i think this was later denied by Ray Treacy who organised the trip on behalf of the FAI. his side of the story was that the sandwiches were only a pre training snack and that a full dinner including pasta was available after the session.

possibly the best away performance that I can remember on the back of it all though!

Treacy (God rest him) was the man who organised Saipan.
Saipan was only to acclimatise and ‘have a few beers/blowout’ according to McCarthy; before the real work began.

They misjudged the whole thing.

It was a disaster of a destination.

Also there’s this story which may be a bigger part of the story than we think:

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/roy-keane-mick-mccarthy-saipan-mick-clegg-253830

[Stuttgart88]

I think the reference to “foreign guys” is probably not the best way of putting as they are all Irish. They are all from immigrant families snd it’s a fair point that their parents may be less aware / engaged in Irish football history. But in the context of this issue and the insinuations about genuine Irishness in Keane’s alleged comments, it’s a wee bit on the inappropriate/ clumsy side to describe any Irish footballers as being “foreign”

Well done on your restraint. They're not foreign at all. Wholly inappropriate, not just a "wee" bit.

[Fixer82]

Well done on your restraint. They're not foreign at all. Wholly inappropriate, not just a "wee" bit.


It’s not wholly inappropriate. There’s a valid point there that could’ve been made more eloquently.
Someone from Nigeria who possibly didn’t live here at the time isn’t going to have as vivid a memory of the incident as someone Irish living here who was fully invested in that team and remembers that debacle well.
Hence, the aforementioned won’t pass the story on to their kids the way the latter might.

[Razors left peg]

It’s not wholly inappropriate. There’s a valid point there that could’ve been made more eloquently.
Someone from Nigeria who possibly didn’t live here at the time isn’t going to have as vivid a memory of the incident as someone Irish living here who was fully invested in that team and remembers that debacle well.
Hence, the aforementioned won’t pass the story on to their kids the way the latter might.

A lad who is born and raised in Ireland to immigrant parents is not a foreigner. We all understand the point that was being made, but the words used are simply wrong and are completely inappropriate. Its that kind of BS nonsense that a lot of these lads grow up having to listen to.

[Trequartista20]

Kind of depressing that people are still going on about this all this time on. I suppose it brings into sharp relief our lack of on-field achievements in this time. I went on the Indo's site early on and almost their entire sports section is dominated by this, with multiple articles from the time being republished.

I was, of course, extremely disappointed at the time because it was our first tournament appearance in eight years - which seemed aeons to me at that age - and Keane was our captain and indisputably our best and most important player. But I understood that he was never all that committed when it came to playing for Ireland, seemingly considering us beneath him, or at least of a far lesser priority, with his main focus always being United, and I always suspected he would retire from the international scene long before he ended his club career. Keane just didn't want to be there, his heart wasn't in it and he eventually got his way. So, I simply supported the players who did want to be there and we acquitted ourselves very well.

The state of football in this country, the fact that we haven't qualified for a World Cup in what will be at least 24 years, and what we might do to remedy this, is probably what we should really be talking about.

[Fixer82]

A lad who is born and raised in Ireland to immigrant parents is not a foreigner. We all understand the point that was being made, but the words used are simply wrong and are completely inappropriate. Its that kind of BS nonsense that a lot of these lads grow up having to listen to.

At no point did I say that a lad born and raised in Ireland was a foreigner.
I also said the point could’ve been made better.
Calling them ‘foreign guys’ is clumsy.
I think we’re in agreement there.
But I don’t think the original poster’s intent was to be nasty.
So I didn’t take it that way.

[Razors left peg]

At no point did I say that a lad born and raised in Ireland was a foreigner.
I also said the point could’ve been made better.
Calling them ‘foreign guys’ is clumsy.
I think we’re in agreement there.
But I don’t think the original poster’s intent was to be nasty.
So I didn’t take it that way.

No you didnt, the original post called them foreign guys

[Fixer82]

No you didnt, the original post called them foreign guys

Yes. Hence my ‘clumsy’ comment

[Razors left peg]

Yes. Hence my ‘clumsy’ comment

My point is that its more than just Clumsy and a lad shouldnt have to deal with comments like that because hes black

[Fixer82]

My point is that its more than just Clumsy and a lad shouldnt have to deal with comments like that because hes black

I agree that a lad shouldn’t. But I don’t think there was ill intent in the comment.

[pineapple stu]

My point is that its more than just Clumsy and a lad shouldnt have to deal with comments like that because hes black
Why are you bringing skin colour into things? That's got nothing to do with anything.

If you want to say it may have been made more eloquently, then fine, but ultimately at the core was the distinction between what - Irish and foreign background? Culture? Is that terminology really so much different? You have to differentiate them somehow in this context when it's core to the point that's being made. Which wasn't judgemental or discriminatory - just a matter-of-fact observation.

Talk about inappropriateness is just getting offended for the sake of it to be honest.

[tetsujin1979]

A player born in Ireland is Irish, not foreign.
The poster misspoke, and has admitted his mistake.
Let's move on

[CraftyToePoke]

Talk about inappropriateness is just getting offended for the sake of it to be honest.

This offends me.

[sidewayspasser]

As someone who didn't live here back then, I had never heard of Saipan before I moved here and developed an interest in Irish football. I think I'll never fully grasp how big a thing it was back then (and apparently still is now). I can completely relate to an immigrant family who might just have come here a few years before if the incident doesn't mean as much to them as it does for the average Irish supporter. And if it doesn't mean much to them, there is no point passing it on to the next generation.

[SkStu]

Also there’s this story which may be a bigger part of the story than we think:

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/roy-keane-mick-mccarthy-saipan-mick-clegg-253830

I think i might have heard or read something about this way back but it long since left the memory bank. Really interesting angle to it alright and id say it definitely would have played a big part in Roy's mood and perspective. On the face of it, would seem like a good idea and a trick missed by Mick McCarthy to pull together some quality backroom supports but would this guy have really been able to do much to impact the squad in the couple of weeks prior to the tournament?

[ontheotherhand]

I missed that completely. I was sure I'd poured over every article and interview at the time and don't think I ever saw mention of Clegg.

I'm not sure who I agree with for that specific incident. McCarthy had a team and probably didn't want to offend anyone or work with someone he didn't know. That seems fair. That said, if we snubbed the chance to bring in someone with that kind of pedigree and our captain was asking for it then it seems like a poor move by Mick. At worst he could have allowed Clegg to join Roy alone. We had time to train and we wasted some of it in Saipan so I'm sure he could have made some sort of impact.

Thanks for sharing Fixer.

[irishfan86]

Definitely an interesting read. On paper Clegg definitely seems like he would have been a great addition to the back room team, but the timing would have been very odd.

If you’re McCarthy and have just guided a squad to the World Cup, are you bringing in a complete unknown person to your back room team just weeks before a major event like this? If you’ve got good squad morale/a good dynamic, I wouldn’t be doing any unnecessary tinkering with an unknown person that close to a World Cup.

[Fixer82]

Definitely an interesting read. On paper Clegg definitely seems like he would have been a great addition to the back room team, but the timing would have been very odd.

If you’re McCarthy and have just guided a squad to the World Cup, are you bringing in a complete unknown person to your back room team just weeks before a major event like this? If you’ve got good squad morale/a good dynamic, I wouldn’t be doing any unnecessary tinkering with an unknown person that close to a World Cup.

And yet….I’d look at what he’d achieved with ManU and certainly strongly consider it.
Looks like it would’ve given us an advantage over other teams

[Snapshot]

So one surely would expect Keane also to have advised Brian Kerr to bring Clegg on board.

[Fixer82]

So one surely would expect Keane also to have advised Brian Kerr to bring Clegg on board.

Perhaps. Perhaps he had an open conversation with Kerr about it and Kerr explained his reasons why he wouldn't bring him onboard.
I get the impression McCarthy would see something like that as his management of the team being undermined.

[tetsujin1979]

Do we know when Keane approached Mick to include Clegg? If it was in early May, with all the plans already in place, then it's unreasonable
If it was in January, when the plans were being put together then it was probably worth a look
On the other hand, Mick had been in the job for six years at this stage, and knew and trusted his team.

[Snapshot]

Perhaps. Perhaps he had an open conversation with Kerr about it and Kerr explained his reasons why he wouldn't bring him onboard.
I get the impression McCarthy would see something like that as his management of the team being undermined.

McCarthy had to reject such an idea. How could he do otherwise? It was a ridiculous proposal given the circumstances. If Keane believed Clegg could make a big difference he surely would have proposed the same idea to Kerr. I doubt he ever did - Kerr would have done anything to get Keane back.

Keane's response would have been nuclear had such a late-late proposal been thrown at him at Sunderland, Ipswich, Villa or Ireland.

[jbyrne]

one of the criticisms of our Euro 2012 finals preparation was that the players were flogged to death in the few weeks before the tournament and we suffered as a result.
not sure what difference this lad would have made between the end on the EPL season and start of the WC. remember the wc started in late may in 2002.
surely his kind of fitness work is something you mainly do pre-season?

[John83]

surely his kind of fitness work is something you mainly do pre-season?
Yeah, I've read numerous footballers talking about training come May being mostly light ball work and tactical stuff, especially if they've a busy run-in. The running up mountains stuff is for pre-season. That said, there's probably a good deal a top fitness coach knows about the right trade-off. If you go too far the other way, or say have a few weeks without any matches at the end of a season, there's presumably a drop-off in performance. Hitting that sweet spot where you keep the players at peak performance for the tournament is maybe harder than you'd think. It may even require personalised training depending on the player.

[Diggs246]

I would say Keane is a controlling lunatic
Anything to interfere and gain levels of control. He attacked the man u ( no 2) Portuguese guy. Because he wasn't happy with the villa his family were. provided with for pre season in Portugal.

[Fixer82]

I would say Keane is a controlling lunatic
Anything to interfere and gain levels of control. He attacked the man u ( no 2) Portuguese guy. Because he wasn't happy with the villa his family were. provided with for pre season in Portugal.

That wasn’t the reason at all

[Fixer82]

But I agree Keane is a difficult character and possibly a control freak. His United team mates all seem to have respected him and got on fine with him though. And looked up to him

[seanfhear]

But I agree Keane is a difficult character and possibly a control freak. His United team mates all seem to have respected him and got on fine with him though. And looked up to him
Keane was Gary Neville’s, Minder, and a good few more of that Utd team as well.

[EalingGreen]

https://variety.com/2024/film/global/saipan-steve-coogan-mick-mccarthy-eanna-hardwick-roy-keane-1236086199/

I daresay they'll try to stick to portraying what really happened, but I'd prefer if they went back to the old Hollywood ways and applied a bit of creative licence to historical events, for increased dramatic effect etc.

I'm thinking of the, er, "interpretation" where Keane tells Mick that he's nor even Irish and Mick turns round, beats the living **** out of him, then casually remarks: "Carsley, you're playing central midfield now" in a low, Clint Eastwood-style growl.

[elatedscum]

"Carsley, you're playing central midfield now"

I'm all for creative licence but Carsley played just 1 minute in the tournament

[Diggs246]

https://variety.com/2024/film/global/saipan-steve-coogan-mick-mccarthy-eanna-hardwick-roy-keane-1236086199/

I daresay they'll try to stick to portraying what really happened, but I'd prefer if they went back to the old Hollywood ways and applied a bit of creative licence to historical events, for increased dramatic effect etc.

I'm thinking of the, er, "interpretation" where Keane tells Mick that he's nor even Irish and Mick turns round, beats the living **** out of him, then casually remarks: "Carsley, you're playing central midfield now" in a low, Clint Eastwood-style growl.

I think the person who broke the tension was dean keily

Who stood up and offered his services in central mid

Apparently the room exploded laughing

[EalingGreen]

I'm all for creative licence but Carsley played just 1 minute in the tournament

That was my point.

Meanwhile, fine actor as he is, I'm not sure Steve Coogan is the best man for to play Big Mick - at least unless he's prepared to have his nose broken for authenticity.

Personally, I'd have cast Liam Neeson instead, with the part of Keane played by Warwick Davis, being instructed to use a really bad Cork accent in a very girly, high-pitched tone.

Would also need to find a place for Gary Neville somehow, on the basis of his unerring ability to laugh uproariously like it's the funniest thing he has EVER heard at even the mildest of Keane's quips.

[The Fly]

I for one can’t wait to see this cinematic portrayal of a much underreported and under-investigated event in modern Irish history.

[John83]

The real casting decision I'm waiting on is Triggs. I heard they're trying to get Ryan Reynolds.

[Fixer82]

Interesting to see how they do it.
Clinton Morrison said he made the 'English cnut' remark, Quinn said he never said it.

McCarthy also said in interview with Dunphy that he did ask Roy to come back and Roy said 'no'

[seanfhear]

Interesting to see how they do it.
Clinton Morrison said he made the 'English cnut' remark, Quinn said he never said it.

McCarthy also said in interview with Dunphy that he did ask Roy to come back and Roy said 'no'
As Big Mick is basically retired ~ He should tell us the story from his side ~ He doesn't really have anything to lose at this stage ~ Let the truth reign.

[EalingGreen]

Clinton Morrison said he made the 'English cnut' remark, Quinn said he never said it. I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The annoying thing with all of this is that Ireland had an excellent chance to progress in that tournament - going out on penalties to a Spanish team that only had ten men on the pitch and another who couldn't run - with Keane on the pitch in that game he would have driven the Irish players forward in search of a winning goal. Beat Spain and your up against a S. Korean team that was beatable and then Germany who Ireland had already drawn with in the group stage and were also beatable.

I think that what frustrated Keane more than the problems with the training facilities etc, was the attitude of some of the players who felt they had made the finals, were happy to be there and were relaxed about what was going on around them and McCarthy was happy to go along with it - where as Keane wanted a discipline and a plan to maximise the potential of the team. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.
Morrison is dead sound - a working class kid from a deprived background who had to scrap for everything and never lost the run of himself - and always helped people when he could.

[SkStu]

The annoying thing with all of this is that Ireland had an excellent chance to progress in that tournament - going out on penalties to a Spanish team that only had ten men on the pitch and another who couldn't run - with Keane on the pitch in that game he would have driven the Irish players forward in search of a winning goal. Beat Spain and your up against a S. Korean team that was beatable and then Germany who Ireland had already drawn with in the group stage and were also beatable.

I think that what frustrated Keane more than the problems with the training facilities etc, was the attitude of some of the players who felt they had made the finals, were happy to be there and were relaxed about what was going on around them and McCarthy was happy to go along with it - where as Keane wanted a discipline and a plan to maximise the potential of the team. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

I'll always agree with Mick's insistence that Saipan was meant to be relaxed for the squad at the end of a long season, unwind, build some morale - instead of the intense camp that Keane had wanted it to be. Now, there is a lot i'll agree with Keane on in terms of how the logistics were handled and generally wanting to see a winning mentality but that needs to be balanced. I think he misread the room massively and, likely, just didnt really want to be there and be away from his family and home comforts for such a long time.

Theres no doubt in my mind that if we had a more content Keano there, we'd have gone further. In retrospect, it seems like getting Keano in that headspace at that stage of his career would have been a herculean task for any manager.

[seanfhear]

Alex Ferguson wasn't long showing Roy Keane the door when push came to shove !

[CraftyToePoke]

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

I think the intervening years have shown getting & keeping RMK onside is thankless and pointless spend of time. Doubtlessly things in Saipan weren't to his liking but was his handling of it proportional ? No. With everything that's been said of this, the one truth of it is the one thing that hasn't been said enough, the defining narrative, the pressure cooked him & he blew.

We could have had a tilt at a WC final with him, yes. We'd almost certainly have done better. But bottom line he went home & stayed there. Mick not blameless either in the fallout.

Oh, & the last movie I want to watch is one about that few weeks. It was pretty much downhill from there with the odd blip rally to where we find Irish football today & it could still get worse.

[Razors left peg]

Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan for their "rest and relaxation" before the world cup is still weird and disgraceful. Im not sure people still even realize how far away Saipan is from Japan. It made no sense to go there, and even less given the lack of facilities there for a football team. It was another case of peoples pockets being lined.

This movie will be more depressing than Angelas Ashes

[CraftyToePoke]

This movie will be more depressing than Angelas Ashes

Which was actually mostly filmed in Cork because Limerick wasn't derelict enough but Cork had ample choices, location wise. Fun fact there unless someone from Limerick is pointing it out to someone from Cork, which I often have.

[seanfhear]

Who gets to play Roy Keane's dog = = The best part in the whole episode.

[pineapple stu]

Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan for their "rest and relaxation" before the world cup is still weird and disgraceful. Im not sure people still even realize how far away Saipan is from Japan.
I would have thought the distance from all the hype would have been part of the point of going to Saipan tbh