Saipan - 20 Years On

[seanfhear]

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end wellRoy Keane isn't a varsity athlete of the brain.

[texidub]

Very true about he could have just got on with it. I can even hear it in Keane's voice: "Where's de courage? Dis is de World Cup and de only ting dat matters is what happens on de pitch. No. No. It's true. De World Cup is a big deal, especially for a small country like IIIiiireland. You just get on wid it, like."

[EalingGreen]

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end wellYeah, he was probably doing the journalist a favour, seeing as how he's always loved journalists.

And he won't have taken money for it either. Oh no, Keane is known for not being interested in money.

[Trequartista20]

Keane simply didn't want to be there. Let's be honest; he was never the most commited to the Irish cause.

When he played (bizarrely at sweeper) against Iceland at in October of 1996, it was only his fourth appearance since 1994, and he was consequently at the receiving end of boos from the Irish support.

After his appointment as captain, he went AWOL having been called up to the US tour in the summer of '96, so he could watch the cricket, refusing all calls from the management.

What happened in Saipan was never McCarthy's fault.

[EalingGreen]

Keane simply didn't want to be there. Let's be honest; he was never the most commited to the Irish cause.And then there's the Iran play-off - I know who I believe:
https://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/iran-match.htm

[TonyD]

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well

I agree. I also think McCarthy handled it spectacularly badly. His decision to confront Keane in front of the whole squad, and then to bring up past grievances, was only ever going to end one way. What did he expect to happen when he put Keene’s back up against the wall ? Very bad management in my view. He wanted to show who was in charge and put Keane in his place publicly. Was never going to work.

[Fixer82]

And then there's the Iran play-off - I know who I believe:
https://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/iran-match.htm

He played great in he first leg and had a knee injury that a long flight and game would not have helped. I'm with Keane on this one. In the games he played (which was most of the qualifying games), he was immense. He got himself right and played the last couple of friendlies in Lansdowne before heading to Saipan. He also blamed himself for Nigeria's winning goal against us in the last friendly. He was committed. Unfortunately, he just couldn't keep his mouth shut and suck it up for a month

[geysir]

He played great in he first leg and had a knee injury that a long flight and game would not have helped. I'm with Keane on this one. In the games he played (which was most of the qualifying games), he was immense. He got himself right and played the last couple of friendlies in Lansdowne before heading to Saipan. He also blamed himself for Nigeria's winning goal against us in the last friendly. He was committed. Unfortunately, he just couldn't keep his mouth shut and suck it up for a month
He was just okay in the first leg. Any ordinary decent committed player would have endured the so called long flight, not only to play but if such and such a player was to captain his team and country to a World Cup Final??. It's expected of a great captain to be a captain to the death. Puyol was a captain, not only of club but 110% of a country of which he only had a peripheral identity to. That Mick did not handle the the situation in Saipan very well, especially with confronting Keane is no big secret but Ireland's captain should not have put the manager in any such bizarre situation to manage.
When it comes to ranking captains of teams, Keane, regardless of club achievements, would rank at the bottom rungs of national team captains, saved from total ignominy by his superb performances against Netherlands, Portugal home and especially away in the qualifiers.

[Fixer82]

I think there was an agreement that he wasn't in great shape so if we got a positive result, he would stay home and get treatment. 2-0 at home was certainly a positive result.

[tetsujin1979]

Teaser trailer for the Saipan movie released
IwrczszDCSk

[seanfhear]

Teaser trailer for the Saipan movie released
IwrczszDCSkThat's a terrible trailer ~ Not easy to make, sports / soccer, movies at the best of times anyway !

[Fixer82]

Looks good to me.
Obviously UMBRO didn't let them use their logo on jerseys.
Coogan is a great choice for McCarthy.

Only thing that stands out is when they're facing off there, McCarthy should be a bit taller than Keane. I met Keane once. He's not a tall man for a professional athlete

[seanfhear]

The fella playing Keane has a huge head ( physically )

And Steve Coogan would be the least intimidating centre-back of all time ~ Mick McCarthy having being a very intimidating centre-back in his playing time.

How many successful sport films has there even been, in comparison to the numbers made ?

[John83]

How many successful sport films has there even been, in comparison to the numbers made ?
Not many, but there are some very good ones like Ali, Moneyball, Senna, Murderball, Cool Runnings. They seem to be a bit more fun when they're entirely fictional, a la Rocky, Warrior, Remember the Titans, etc. Still, I, Tonya is probably the closest I can think of to the Keane/Spaipan saga in that you have a real-life story (fictionalised of course, as these things usually are) of someone highly talented and driven but self-sabotaging, and that movie is great.

[tetsujin1979]

Remember the titans is based on a true story, but some of it is fictionalised
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria_City_High_School#Football_and_Remember_ the_Titans
Friday night lights is another great high school football film.

[Fixer82]

Cinderella Man is good and the first movie I've ever seen where I believed the boxing.

Those Rocky movies are ridiculous for boxing. Not one boxer puts his hands in front of his face to protect himself ;)

[seanfhear]

Not many, but there are some very good ones like Ali, Moneyball, Senna, Murderball, Cool Runnings. They seem to be a bit more fun when they're entirely fictional, a la Rocky, Warrior, Remember the Titans, etc. Still, I, Tonya is probably the closest I can think of to the Keane/Spaipan saga in that you have a real-life story (fictionalised of course, as these things usually are) of someone highly talented and driven but self-sabotaging, and that movie is great.Well to me, nether Tonya Harding or Nancy Kerrigan were a patch on some of the other top female skaters at other olympics of around that time. Maybe top skaters were a bit thin on the ground at that particular time ( that olympics ). Also, I suppose because of the controversy / violent incident, these two skaters got a hell of a lot more, publicity / coverage, than they otherwise would have. To me, I Tonya, was a passible film / average enough.

[OwlsFan]

I wish Saipan could be forgotten. I lost one of my best football friends over that. We used to go to all the home games and travel to many of the away games together. He was also a big Man U/Keane fan and after Saipan he refused to go to any Irish games. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. I invited him to parties, social events etc after that but he never came to any: I was one of those muppets in his eyes. Saw him once at his mother's funeral and that's all. Sad.

[tetsujin1979]

It's been more than 20 years, there's players in the senior squad who were born after it happened, it really should be left in the past, but both Keane and McCarthy have a fairly high profile as studio analysts in the UK, which keeps it in the public consciousness.
I was thinking about the film itself, will it make money - who is going to see it?

[CraftyToePoke]

I was thinking about the film itself, will it make money - who is going to see it?

Plenty Man U players now don't remember him either.
The multiple TV companies have given more of these ex pros than is necessary an extended relevance after their careers have ended, Keane is one, Ferdinand another, there are loads & don't get me started on Micah Richards. Neville another. McManaman & Carragher are clearly scum bags but you have to listen to them if you want to watch.

I'd have no interest at all in seeing this & hopefully it flops, and with it Saipan fallout might finally stop with it.

[seanfhear]

A lot of People take sport and politics too seriously. People are allowed to think differently to you. They may be right / you may be right. Nobody is right all the time. I would never lose a friend / acquaintance, over sport or politics. Maybe some family thing would be too big to get over, but it would have to be pretty big for me to shun somebody altogether.

Life is too short to be falling out over silly stuff.

[elatedscum]

. McManaman & Carragher are clearly scum bags

What’s Mcmanaman ever done to anyone?

[Fixer82]

Plenty Man U players now don't remember him either.
The multiple TV companies have given more of these ex pros than is necessary an extended relevance after their careers have ended, Keane is one, Ferdinand another, there are loads & don't get me started on Micah Richards. Neville another. McManaman & Carragher are clearly scum bags but you have to listen to them if you want to watch.

I'd have no interest at all in seeing this & hopefully it flops, and with it Saipan fallout might finally stop with it.

Who would you have provide punditry on the games? All those players have played at the top. They're perfectly positioned to provide commentary on soccer matches.

And I'd love to know why McMamaman is a scumbag too btw

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't know, maybe I'm getting old but I like pundits who can make coherent, grammatically correct observations in full sentences. With the game in mind rather than how many clickbait hits can I engineer here, re Keane.

McManaman, every failed pronunciation of every vowel & consonant resonates of absolute scrote & proud to be. Which he is. I get there has to be regional representation in the broadcasts but how he choses, and it is a choice, to put himself across makes me look for the game on elsewhere.

[EalingGreen]

Who would you have provide punditry on the games? All those players have played at the top. They're perfectly positioned to provide commentary on soccer matches.

And I'd love to know why McMamaman is a scumbag too btwSorry, but have to disagree. Those guys aren't chosen for their technical excellence (those who do have that quality are doing it at a club, not talking about it in a studio).

Instead they're chosen depending on which club they played for (hence Man U and L'pool dominating) and/or their "personality". Re this latter, Chris Sutton and Martin O'Neill are the controversialists; Roy Keane is the "Studio Hit Man"; Gary Neville is there to laugh uproariously at Keane's "jokes"; Micah Richards is the Class Clown, in succession to Ian Wright who was upgraded to Head Boy; Jamie Redknapp is probably there to entertain the Laydeez, while Rio Ferdinand is... Jeez, I've no idea why he's ever let near a TV studio, since I doubt he's ever said anything interesting or insightful in his entire life, even by mistake.

Above all, they virtually all merely tell you what you've just seen, not why it happened. A notable exception was Terry Venables, a genuinely deep thinker, who had great insight; while Glenn Hoddle also has his moments, though these are often spoiled by his also being a bit of a prat.

Mind you, all of that may be outdated, since these days I usually switch over/make a cup of tea/go to the bar etc when they appear on screen.

P.S. No idea why McManaman is a "scumbag" either - I mean, it's not as if eg he gobbed at a 14 y.o. girl asking him for his autograph...

[Supreme feet]

Teaser trailer for the Saipan movie released
IwrczszDCSk

The actor playing Keane looks more like a young Stephen Elliott.

[SkStu]

A lot of People take sport and politics too seriously. People are allowed to think differently to you. They may be right / you may be right. Nobody is right all the time. I would never lose a friend / acquaintance, over sport or politics. Maybe some family thing would be too big to get over, but it would have to be pretty big for me to shun somebody altogether.

Life is too short to be falling out over silly stuff.

Thats it. We are DONE old man.

[EalingGreen]

How many successful sport films has there even been, in comparison to the numbers made ?Very few, I'd say.

Would highly recommend "The Damned United", the story of Brian Clough's 44 days at Leeds United. His family were (understandably) upset at the way he was portrayed, though the book was harsher on him (I'd also recommend the book btw).

"The Keeper", a biopic of Bert Trautmann, the great German gk/former POW, who played for Man City after the war is also pretty good. Not sure how accurate it is, but it has its moments, drama-wise.

While "Marvellous", about a Stoke City fan (played by Toby Jones) is quite simply outstanding, absolutely hilarious, whilst also being thoughtful, too. Everyone I've recommended it to has thoroughly enjoyed it, incl those with no interest in sport. The original book is also very good, as is the stage version which followed the film. Must watch stuff!

[tetsujin1979]

The Damned United is a heavily fictionalised account of Clough's time in charge. John Giles took the writer to court over how he was portrayed in the book and won, which is why his name is only used once(I think?) in the book, and he's referred to as "the Irishman" after that.
When the film came out, Giles discussed it on one episode of Off The Ball. He'd refused to speak about it before and hasn't spoken about it since to the best of my knowledge, but I rarely listen to OTB these days. He did mention that Clough's surviving family investigated taking the author of the book to court, but couldn't because you can't liable the dead.

[tetsujin1979]

Sorry, but have to disagree. Those guys aren't chosen for their technical excellence (those who do have that quality are doing it at a club, not talking about it in a studio).
To be fair, Carragher and Neville's breakdown of players and passages of play on Monday Night Football were excellent, but they seem to have left them long behind. Adam Clery on youtube does similar stuff now, I'd recommend his channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TheAdamCleryFootballChannel


Instead they're chosen depending on which club they played for (hence Man U and L'pool dominating) and/or their "personality". Re this latter, Chris Sutton and Martin O'Neill are the controversialists; Roy Keane is the "Studio Hit Man"; Gary Neville is there to laugh uproariously at Keane's "jokes"; Micah Richards is the Class Clown, in succession to Ian Wright who was upgraded to Head Boy; Jamie Redknapp is probably there to entertain the Laydeez, while Rio Ferdinand is... Jeez, I've no idea why he's ever let near a TV studio, since I doubt he's ever said anything interesting or insightful in his entire life, even by mistake. Ian Wright was a lot better on Match of the Day, and Match of the Day 2. Might have been given more time to prepare, or time to get his point across? Richards is there for ratings, or (more likely) clicks and views. The Champions League show he does for one of the American broadcasters(ABC?) is risible, but it does numbers, as the kids are saying, on YouTube, tiktok, etc. Redknapp never says anything controversial, which is probably why he's still there.


Above all, they virtually all merely tell you what you've just seen, not why it happened. A notable exception was Terry Venables, a genuinely deep thinker, who had great insight; while Glenn Hoddle also has his moments, though these are often spoiled by his also being a bit of a prat.Lee Dixon was good for this too on MOTD2


Mind you, all of that may be outdated, since these days I usually switch over/make a cup of tea/go to the bar etc when they appear on screen.

P.S. No idea why McManaman is a "scumbag" either - I mean, it's not as if eg he gobbed at a 14 y.o. girl asking him for his autograph...If you're talking about the incident where Carragher spat out his window at another car, I'd have a degree of sympathy for him here. He was driving on a dual carriageway, possible a motorway, and was being goaded by another car, who were looking for a reaction from him as much as an autograph. He shouldn't have done it, and was punished for it, but he's not entirely to blame either.
There's a time and a place to ask for these things, neither are at 60mph+

[CraftyToePoke]

Nedum Onuoha was on a BBC broadcast, think is might have been a women's game in the last year, and he was outstanding, insightful, gave knowledge, you'd learn from him and enjoy the lesson. Doesn't make sense he's not involved but so many idiots are, and it proves, it isn't about quality, its about ratings, clicks and dick heads having what passes for banter. If the face fits you are in and you stay in, if it doesn't, you can be as good as you like, you aren't getting picked. Rio Ferdinand is absolutely appalling, he basically sees who's hot on twitter on the continent and passes that off as his own, alongside feigned emotion nonsense about trusting your team mates and bonds on the field, like it some kind of marriage. Absolute clown.

[EalingGreen]

If you're talking about the incident where Carragher spat out his window at another car, I'd have a degree of sympathy for him here. He was driving on a dual carriageway, possible a motorway, and was being goaded by another car, who were looking for a reaction from him as much as an autograph. He shouldn't have done it, and got the punishment he deserved, but he's not entirely to blame either.
There's a time and a place to ask for these things, neither are at 60mph+Ok, I was wrong about the autograph bit, and yes, the other driver was an irritating prat. But now having seen the video with sound, there is absolutely no excuse for Carragher - you just wind your window up and look ahead to the road:


https://youtu.be/yAo6SNt4lLg

[SkStu]

I think Crafty should be given 24 hours to post some evidence of McManaman being a scumbag or retract and/or get a meaty ban from the forum.

[elatedscum]

Ok, I was wrong about the autograph bit, and yes, the other driver was an irritating prat. But now having seen the video with sound, there is absolutely no excuse for Carragher - you just wind your window up and look ahead to the road:


https://youtu.be/yAo6SNt4lLg


Wasn't the father following Carragher for a few lights and baiting an interaction with various insults all along the way? And then a cut video was sold to the Mirror. I heard that's why no charges were brought against Carragher. Still totally inexcusable to spit at someone, but worth considering it might not have been a single interaction but the culmination of a series of incidents.