Saipan - 20 Years On

[seanfhear]

Yeah let's move on to Thierry Henry.
All Hands on Deck !

[SkStu]

A row and a handshake tho stu? If most players and managers went back over their career (particularly in their era) there would be similar events. Quinn's account of the Boston row doesn't paint McCarthy in the greatest light either (targeting the youngest player when half the team were on the ****) so I wouldn't be putting too much weight on it other than to say they didn't get on and it went back a fair way.

McCarthy should have been able to manage around that to get his best player going and he failed to do so. If anything he antagonized Keane.

Is Keane blameless? No. But I see why he was fuming about Saipan more than I see why McCarthy made the decisions he did to manage to situation. I still just don't understand calling that team meeting and slapping the newspaper on the table. What did he think was going to happen? David Brent would have done a better job.

But ultimately I still blame the FAI more than anyone.

While responsibility can be apportioned out on the whole debacle for sure, I just think the bottom line, for me, is that it is simply unacceptable that you walk out on your teammates and your country on the eve of a World Cup - no matter how right you think you are.

[Diggs246]

Would really like to see some evidence something along these lines was said. I don't believe it was.

I cant give u cctv footage
But I'm pretty sure this is accepted as fact by those who were there( the whole squad)

Are u saying its false?

[ontheotherhand]

While responsibility can be apportioned out on the whole debacle for sure, I just think the bottom line, for me, is that it is simply unacceptable that you walk out on your teammates and your country on the eve of a World Cup - no matter how right you think you are.

Will Smith would disagree!

I'd agree with you if I thought he walked more so than was pushed. But I suppose it rests on that in a way. For me, McCarthy wanted him gone and called the meeting to make that happen.

We had a chance at that WC. Keane knew it. It sounds, from what I'm reading here, that most posters thought the same. I try to put myself in the shoes of our best player and captain arriving to the farce of Saipan, which was the culmination or at least continuation of years of neglect, mismanagement and incompetence on behalf of the FAI. Would I sacrifice my last (only) chance at a WC to call it all out? Maybe. I'd certainly want to make a point. I think that's how he saw it in the end. And I dont really blame him for that.

But there's layers to it and angles and almost everyone here has a fair enough take even if I come down fairly firmly on Keane's side. I can completely see why you'd be on the other side.

[pineapple stu]

A row and a handshake tho stu?
I think there's a lot underlying that row and handshake though.

I agree there's nuances to the whole thing, but I think Keane throughout his career seems to have held unhelpful grudges, and I think in the end that contributed more to Saipan than whatever McCarthy may have done. Maybe he thought it was for the best - people not pulling what he saw as their weight or what have you.

And I agree the FAI do seem to have been a bit of a shambles.

[ontheotherhand]

I think there's a lot underlying that row and handshake though.

I agree there's nuances to the whole thing, but I think Keane throughout his career seems to have held unhelpful grudges, and I think in the end that contributed more to Saipan than whatever McCarthy may have done. Maybe he thought it was for the best - people not pulling what he saw as their weight or what have you.

And I agree the FAI do seem to have been a bit of a shambles.

Yeah all fair. Certainly a man to hold a grudge. Sometimes it probably helped, sometimes it definitely didn't. I managed him just fine in Champo though so.....

[SkStu]

Will Smith would disagree!

Keep Will Smiths name out ya fckin mouth!

[tetsujin1979]

Question. Was Keane's attack on McCarthy rasist? ( or the like)

It went some like.
"You some how ended up managing my country you English c""t"

According to the quotes here - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/aug/24/sport.comment - McCarthy's nationality was not mentioned

"Mick, you're a liar... you're a ****ing ******. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a ****ing ****** and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your ********."
That's not to say Keane didn't call him that another time

[pineapple stu]

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess

[ontheotherhand]

Keep Will Smiths name out ya fckin mouth!

To be fair, Wills actions were worse than Keane's and nobody sent him home from the Oscars. It's a shame Chris Rock wasn't managing Ireland for the WC in a way. Might have been a better choice for those games against Gibraltar as well.

I'll just grab my coat there.

[ontheotherhand]

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess

Ah come on. You wouldn't say "manager of the team representing our shared heritage"!

[pineapple stu]

You could say "somehow you are the manager!" or "somehow you are the Ireland manager!"

The phrase used is very strange and has a clear connotation that Ireland is not McCarthy's country. Would you say to Ogbene that he's done well so far "playing for my country"?

[ontheotherhand]

You could say "somehow you are the manager!" or "somehow you are the Ireland manager!"

The phrase used is very strange and has a clear connotation that Ireland is not McCarthy's country. Would you say to Ogbene that he's done well so far "playing for my country"?

No but I also wouldn't say he's done really well for "my team" because I'm not on it!

I think it's a stretch to look for something in a turn of phrase here unless he emphasized the "my" and waved a proclamation in the air at the same time. If I was at work and had an issue with my manager and I said, "I don't like you but I'll do what you say because you're the manager of my team (or a manager at my company)" it wouldn't be implying that it wasn't also his team or that I had more ownership over it than he or she did.

Replace McCarthy with Kenny and Keane could say the same thing with no problem.

[SkStu]

According to the quotes here - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/aug/24/sport.comment - McCarthy's nationality was not mentioned

That's not to say Keane didn't call him that another time

If only Stephen Ward's whatsapp account had been around in those days. We'd have had the full, unadulterated scoop within seconds.

[pineapple stu]

Fairly fundamental difference between "my team" and "my country" though.

[Diggs246]

No but I also wouldn't say he's done really well for "my team" because I'm not on it!

I think it's a stretch to look for something in a turn of phrase here unless he emphasized the "my" and waved a proclamation in the air at the same time. If I was at work and had an issue with my manager and I said, "I don't like you but I'll do what you say because you're the manager of my team (or a manager at my company)" it wouldn't be implying that it wasn't also his team or that I had more ownership over it than he or she did.

Replace McCarthy with Kenny and Keane could say the same thing with no problem.
He is absolutely 100% clearly stating that mick is a different nationality to him.

[ontheotherhand]

Fairly fundamental difference between "my team" and "my country" though.

I suppose if you say it in your head with the emphasis on the "my" then you'd have a point.

We went pretty quickly from accusations of overt racism to arguing over semantics though which I think highlights that it wasn't really very clear and certainly shouldn't have been such a big deal when taken in context. Worse is said between teammates, players and managers in the heat of the moment all the time.

[Fixer82]

Clinton Morrison said he said it.
Niall Quinn said he never questioned McCarthy's nationality.
People remember things differently
Oh to be a fly on the wall

[ontheotherhand]

Clinton Morrison said he said it.
Niall Quinn said he never questioned McCarthy's nationality.
People remember things differently
Oh to be a fly on the wall

All the flies were in the ointment in Saipan unfortunately...

[elatedscum]

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess

it does... but i could also credibly imagine Roy saying the same thing to Steve Staunton if Roy's retirement didn't coincide with Stan's appointment

i guess it's a touch of egomania. we may be all from ireland but it's Roy's country more than anyone else's

[ontheotherhand]

I took it as him saying it's his country and he would play for anyone managing it regardless of whether he respects them or not. As in "my country" is so important to me I'd play if a turkey was in charge. Or "sure of course I love you, you're the mother of MY children.....". I don't think he was implying sole ownership or that it wasn't Mick's country.

But maybe I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I always picked 16 as my squad number. Mind you i was often given it by default as I sat on the bench most weeks.

[Diggs246]

I took it as him saying it's his country and he would play for anyone managing it regardless of whether he respects them or not. As in "my country" is so important to me I'd play if a turkey was in charge. Or "sure of course I love you, you're the mother of MY children.....". I don't think he was implying sole ownership or that it wasn't Mick's country.

But maybe I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I always picked 16 as my squad number. Mind you i was often given it by default as I sat on the bench most weeks.

"Somehow ended up managing my country "

He is clearly stating that Mick is from a different country.

[ontheotherhand]

Your opinion has failed to convince me. Not that I'd care much if he'd called him anything under the sun to be honest. Heat of the moment stuff that happens between people. McCarthy poked the bear and the bear growled back.

[third policeman]

Your opinion has failed to convince me. Not that I'd care much if he'd called him anything under the sun to be honest. Heat of the moment stuff that happens between people. McCarthy poked the bear and the bear growled back.

It’s less easy to forgive heat of the moment comments with respect to someone who is continually generating the heat. Keane’s (alleged) comments were clearly a racial insult implying McCarthy was less than Irish, and by extension at least 7 other members of the squad he’s supposed to be leading. There’s no excuse or justification for it.

[ontheotherhand]

Considering most accounts have Breen, Connolly, Kinsella and/or Holland as the ones who either came to Roys room to support him or voted to let him back I think the team had a more forgiving take than you do. But that's football. I'd hate him and blame him for everything if I supported Liverpool as well most likely.

[third policeman]

Considering most accounts have Breen, Connolly, Kinsella and/or Holland as the ones who either came to Roys room to support him or voted to let him back I think the team had a more forgiving take than you do. But that's football. I'd hate him and blame him for everything if I supported Liverpool as well most likely.

I’m sure they all saw the benefit of having their best player with them. The fact they were willing to forgive for personal or pragmatic reasons doesn’t excuse his comments and abuse of the manager.

[SkStu]

Your opinion has failed to convince me. Not that I'd care much if he'd called him anything under the sun to be honest. Heat of the moment stuff that happens between people. McCarthy poked the bear and the bear growled back.

I think (as i'm sure is no surprise at this point :D) that you are being very generous again to the Keane side of the story. McCarthy was not someone with any sort of reputation for going around poking bears and was, by most every other account, a fine man manager... Keane on the other hand has a lot of previous for going way over the top on and off the pitch (Haaland, Southgate, Shearer, Prawn Sandwiches... all just for starters). I think you have to look at the evidence out there regarding their respective personalities and reputations and factor that into how you look at the incident and where to apportion blame.

And i say that all, again, as someone who loved the bite that Keane brought to his teams and the mans drive to win.

[ontheotherhand]

We just covered McCarthys treatment of Irwin as well. Odd that he'd have conflicts with two lads he also played with. You'd think he would have gotten on best with them but he was quite confrontational.

I apportion blame based on role. Mick's job was to harness Roy and manage situations that arose. Roy's job was to speak up as captain when things weren't right. The manner in which he did so was poor but even the only decent Bohs fan in the world won't convince me the blame lies more with him than with Mick. We haven't even mentioned the accusations that Keane faked injuries etc. I'm happy to debate all the accusations against Roy but Mick's own actions are getting an easy ride here. Calling up Healy when he should have been up with Roy making things right. He knew what he was doing with that and knew what he was doing when he tried to dress Keane down in front of the team. There was only going to be one outcome from there.

[pineapple stu]

He knew what he was doing with that and knew what he was doing when he tried to dress Keane down in front of the team. There was only going to be one outcome from there.
Are you saying you think McCarthy deliberately wound Keane up to give himself an excuse to send him home?

[ontheotherhand]

I’m sure they all saw the benefit of having their best player with them. The fact they were willing to forgive for personal or pragmatic reasons doesn’t excuse his comments and abuse of the manager.

Look that's your take and where you want to focus but I don't agree with that for several reasons. You're assuming to know why those players acted that way. All we know is that they did so and it makes the idea that there was some deep rooted racism on Roys part that erupted in the meeting seem a bit weak. You're also relying not only only alleged comments but on your interpretation of those alleged comments. These are comments which also occurred after the horse had left the barn. Maybe they were even worse than you think. I wouldn't be at all shocked if Keane said something awful. He was put in a corner and he has obvious anger issues. Issues that a good manager would have worked around because they were a part of the man who was, at the time, our best player by a country mile and had carried us to a World Cup almost alone at times.

The issue was done when McCarthy called the team meeting and confronted Roy with accusations and attempts to stir ****e between him and the team when everyone had already moved on by most accounts. Alan Kelly wearing a balaclava to training the next day suggests the team was ready to laugh about it and get on with the football.

But again, I'm not absolving Keane of blame entirely. I'm saying it was really badly managed by McCarthy. You don't wave a newspaper article in front of someone like Keane as if he's on trial. You go to him in private and have whatever words you want. As I said in the other post, McCarthy knew what he was doing....or if he didn't he's even more clueless than he looked when we got to the finals.

[ontheotherhand]

Are you saying you think McCarthy deliberately wound Keane up to give himself an excuse to send him home?

No, it could have just been incompetence.

[pineapple stu]

Not given you twice said "He knew what he was doing" about the incident surely?

[ontheotherhand]

Yeah I lean that way but I'm willing to concede that it may just have been incompetence. I'm probably arguing too far in one direction to be fair stu.

I'd say it was somewhere in the middle. He knew what he was doing but he was doing it in a rage and not thinking clearly. If they'd all taken a day to discuss it calmly we'd probably have a WC in the cabinet.

[third policeman]

Look that's your take and where you want to focus but I don't agree with that for several reasons. You're assuming to know why those players acted that way. All we know is that they did so and it makes the idea that there was some deep rooted racism on Roys part that erupted in the meeting seem a bit weak. You're also relying not only only alleged comments but on your interpretation of those alleged comments. These are comments which also occurred after the horse had left the barn. Maybe they were even worse than you think. I wouldn't be at all shocked if Keane said something awful. He was put in a corner and he has obvious anger issues. Issues that a good manager would have worked around because they were a part of the man who was, at the time, our best player by a country mile and had carried us to a World Cup almost alone at times.

The issue was done when McCarthy called the team meeting and confronted Roy with accusations and attempts to stir ****e between him and the team when everyone had already moved on by most accounts. Alan Kelly wearing a balaclava to training the next day suggests the team was ready to laugh about it and get on with the football.

But again, I'm not absolving Keane of blame entirely. I'm saying it was really badly managed by McCarthy. You don't wave a newspaper article in front of someone like Keane as if he's on trial. You go to him in private and have whatever words you want. As I said in the other post, McCarthy knew what he was doing....or if he didn't he's even more clueless than he looked when we got to the finals.

Did anyone say “deep seated racism”? No it was just crass and casual but no less unacceptable for that. I think it’s a myth to say he carried the team to the finals on his own. That’s certainly not my recollection of the Holland away game for a start. It’s equally revisionist to castigate McCarthy for being “clueless” at the finals. We lost on penalties to a decent Spanish team after pretty commendable results against Germany and Cameroon. Are you suggesting that some unnamed unspecified not clueless manager would have got us to the final, or would Keane have “single handedly” carried the team to glory?

[pineapple stu]

I'm probably arguing too far in one direction to be fair stu.
I think you might be!

And I'm not convinced at all by your defence of Keane's "my country" comment. I'd say Keane knew full well what he was saying when he said that.

There's fault everywhere but throughout his career this sort of stuff has followed Keane far more often than McCarthy. I'd tend towards there being no smoke without fire tbh

[ontheotherhand]

Did anyone say “deep seated racism”? No it was just crass and casual but no less unacceptable for that. I think it’s a myth to say he carried the team to the finals on his own. That’s certainly not my recollection of the Holland away game for a start. It’s equally revisionist to castigate McCarthy for being “clueless” at the finals. We lost on penalties to a decent Spanish team after pretty commendable results against Germany and Cameroon. Are you suggesting that some unnamed unspecified not clueless manager would have got us to the final, or would Keane have “single handedly” carried the team to glory?

Did I say carried us on his own? "Almost alone at times". That allows for a bit of help. He needed McCateer to finish the opportunity after he pulled Van Bommel and Staam out of position to create the space for the move that made the goal against Holland at home for example. Are you saying he wasn't our best player through qualifying? That might be worth a new thread!

McCarthy's performance at the finals was discussed above. I don't care either way really. It doesn't change the order of events in Saipan.

[ontheotherhand]

I think you might be!

And I'm not convinced at all by your defence of Keane's "my country" comment. I'd say Keane knew full well what he was saying when he said that.

There's fault everywhere but throughout his career this sort of stuff has followed Keane far more often than McCarthy. I'd tend towards there being no smoke without fire tbh

Ah well I'm on my own here stu, fighting the good fight on behalf of a man I've never met who I actually think could have done a whole lot better at the time. But someone has to take up this half of the debate even if foot.ie seems to be more in the McCarthy camp.

And of course there's smoke around Keane. He's a fiery man. He's also 10x more interesting to the public than Mick so every little incident is covered. Outside of the Haaland one I don't really think he had anything truly outrageous. A few shouting matches and a punch thrown at Shearer? Did he even assault someone in a pub? That's table stakes for EPL captains I'd have thought.

Nice win tonight by the way.

[third policeman]

Did I say carried us on his own? "Almost alone at times". That allows for a bit of help. He needed McCateer to finish the opportunity after he pulled Van Bommel and Staam out of position to create the space for the move that made the goal against Holland at home for example. Are you saying he wasn't our best player through qualifying? That might be worth a new thread!

McCarthy's performance at the finals was discussed above. I don't care either way really. It doesn't change the order of events in Saipan.

If you are seriously suggesting that Keane’s contribution to that goal was greater than McAteer’s or Finnan’s you are losing the plot. He was our best player, nobody questions that, but I bet he was sick that they did as well as they did without him. We were lucky to hold out against the Dutch at Landsdowne Rd, but were the better side against a German team at the finals. It could be argued that we played with more fluidity without Keane, but we’ll never know what impact he would have had at the World Cup because he went home in a sulk and let his team and his country down.

[ontheotherhand]

So he was our best player? Glad we agree on something.

The rest of your post is your opinion and highlights your distaste for the man. You're welcome to both but they won't convince me of much.

[third policeman]

So he was our best player? Glad we agree on something.
The rest of your post is your opinion and highlights your distaste for the man. You're welcome to both but they won't convince me of much.

Opinions are what this forum is about, and most of them are other peoples. It’s kind of the point of the exercise. Anyway happy to agree to differ on this. Just to be provocative, notwithstanding Keane’s status as the best Irish player of his era, I still think he’s overrated. If I had to pick a midfield 3 from my many years as an Ireland supporter it would be Giles, Brady and Ronnie Whelan, but that’s only an opinion.

[ontheotherhand]

Opinions are what this forum is about, and most of them are other peoples. It’s kind of the point of the exercise. Anyway happy to agree to differ on this. Just to be provocative, notwithstanding Keane’s status as the best Irish player of his era, I still think he’s overrated. If I had to pick a midfield 3 from my many years as an Ireland supporter it would be Giles, Brady and Ronnie Whelan, but that’s only an opinion.

You old fossil. :)

Sadly I didn't see much of those 3 but they'd beat my own 3! I'd have to go with Keane, Holland and Whelan. Jesus we've been starved for a while. Maybe Hoolahan....Cullen? Christ.

But look I respect your opinion. I'm just telling you it doesn't change my take which is based more on the order of events and leads me to my own opinion that McCarthy managed it really badly. I'm not saying "im looking at facts and you aren't". Your take is based on your opinion of the character of Roy Keane and that's entirely valid. He was and is a bit of a madman. I loved him for it though.

[CraftyToePoke]

They both f***ed it up ;)

[ontheotherhand]

Good summary. Shall we wait another 20 years and revisit then?

[CraftyToePoke]

Good summary. Shall we wait another 20 years and revisit then?

Lets do that & not bother with it between now & then, because I'm of an age I may not be on here by then.

I was camp Keane, for the record, at the time & firmly. But the intervening years have showed us more of them both, Keane is never happy, its not about standards which he sold it on back then, its about being a cantankerous argumentative conflict led, never happy human being. Mick has been very off hand at times with some comments particularly in his second spell in charge, flippant stubborn and blunt with an arrogant dismissiveness.

Stick those two sets of character traits together on the runway to the most pressurised scrutinised bit of both their careers & it got to them, both of them & they f***ed it up.

They'd both like the chance to make it right but life doesn't offer that rewind button & they'll both never admit, that they f***ed it up & we can talk about it all we like.

[Snapshot]

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.

[osarusan]

"Somehow ended up managing my country "

He is clearly stating that Mick is from a different country.

I wouldn't agree with that. It's possible, but not the only interpretation.

The 'my' doesn't have to indicate contrast. We hear players say stuff like 'It's an honour to represent my country'.

If the whole thing had happened with say Staunton as the manager, is it impossible that Keane would have said the exact same thing? I can imagine him saying it anyway.

[Diggs246]

I wouldn't agree with that. It's possible, but not the only interpretation.

The 'my' doesn't have to indicate contrast. We hear players say stuff like 'It's an honour to represent my country'.

If the whole thing had happened with say Staunton as the manager, is it impossible that Keane would have said the exact same thing? I can imagine him saying it anyway.

No i don't think he does say it to stan if I'm honest

Its the full sentence which followed an abusive rant that should be analysed as a whole. "Somehow ended up managing my country" Somehow in this instance means your **** and my country means your a different nationality to me ( imo)
But you can't leave out the abusive nature of the rant previous to the "my country" business. Its an attack not a patriotic statement.

[Fixer82]

"Somehow ended up managing my country "

He is clearly stating that Mick is from a different country.

I don’t think you understand what the word ‘clearly’ means.

[ontheotherhand]

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.

You mean the O'Neill who hired Keane?

Yeah, I think he may have handled things a bit better.

[Snapshot]

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.


You mean the O'Neill who hired Keane

Yeah, I think he may have handled things a bit better.

No, an O'Neill called "a c**t and a w**ker" (by a player), an O'Neill told to stuff the "WC up your a*se. Insert any manager, outcome the same. Conduct: 10/10 unacceptable.