Saipan - 20 Years On

[ontheotherhand]

No, an O'Neill called "a c**t and a w**ker" (by a player), an O'Neill told to stuff the "WC up your a*se. Insert any manager, outcome the same. Conduct: 10/10 unacceptable.

so you don't get the point?

[Snapshot]

so you don't get the point?
Don’t start, please. Move on.

[John83]

Guys, if you find you're getting annoyed on this topic, that's normal, but walk away from an argument or take it to DMs.

[TonyD]

Yeah I lean that way but I'm willing to concede that it may just have been incompetence. I'm probably arguing too far in one direction to be fair stu.

I'd say it was somewhere in the middle. He knew what he was doing but he was doing it in a rage and not thinking clearly. If they'd all taken a day to discuss it calmly we'd probably have a WC in the cabinet.

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.

[ontheotherhand]

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.

I wasn't being serious Tony. Trying to lighten things up a bit but as you can see above I couldn't even manage to lighten myself!

Apologies to Snapshot there as well. 20 years on and I'm still snapping. Maybe that's why I sided with Keane to begin with! 😅

[John83]

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.
It was a very long shot, but Greece won the Euros with a less capable team. A cup is always subject to a little luck.

[jbyrne]

maybe its a bit strong to say we could have won the 2002 WC but we did, at times, outplay a Germany side that went onto the final.
I don't believe Roy was fully fit for that WC but with him we did perform incredibly well in the qualification group containing portugal and holland with him in the side. We were very hard to beat and had a serious goal threat.
From memory Spain were 2nd favorites for the tournament when we played them in the second round. We should have won that game before it went to penalties.

Duff (in particular) and keane were two of the tournaments stand out players. Didn't Duff go on to get on the UEFA team of the year in 2002?

Its all speculation but I dont think its too fanciful to believe we could have gone another round or two with that team

[pineapple stu]

I think it helps that there weren't any stand-out teams at that World Cup really.

Germany weren't expected to get anywhere near the final - they were bottom of their Euro 2000 group with one point for example. Spain were still the big chokers on the international stage. France were the reigning World and Euro champions but were knocked out in the group stages without scoring a goal. Colombia were Copa America champions and didn't even qualify. It was open for an underdog run - South Korea (referee-assisted) and Turkey to the semis, but also Senegal and the US were in the quarters. It's still the only time five continents were represented at the quarter-final stage. So in a tournament that open, it's definitely tempting to think we could have gone further with our best player.

[seanfhear]

Brazil and Turkey were the only two teams that stood out in that World Cup.

[jbyrne]

Just to be provocative, notwithstanding Keane’s status as the best Irish player of his era, I still think he’s overrated.

really? id actually think the complete opposite. i don't think he ever got the credit he was due when world / european player awards were being discussed for example.
definitely one of the most influential midfielders of his generation.

[Diggs246]

He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person

[third policeman]

He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person

That’s quite a claim. Personally I’d rate Giles and Brady ahead of him in terms of players that I have seen in my time as an Ireland supporter. McGrath would also have a legitimate claim to that title. Keane’s personality and leadership ability stand out. but as a footballer on a purely technical level I’m not convinced he’s our greatest ever player. Back in the day Bryan Robson was raved about as a player and was in many ways similar to Keane, but I’d have always rated Hoddle ahead of him although Robson got more England caps when they were competing for selection. Did Keane ever take your breath away with a piece of sublime skill? He was the supreme artisan, but never an artist.

[SkStu]

Agree, 3rd P. From my observations, the conversation has to include McGrath and Brady and, for me, Robbie Keane is a shoe-in for consideration too and, objectively, probably has the best claim for the title. I never got to see Giles in action so i cant really evaluate him... If i was forced to rank...

1. Robbie
2. McGrath (my personal favourite)
3. Roy
4. Brady

[ontheotherhand]

Agree, 3rd P. From my observations, the conversation has to include McGrath and Brady and, for me, Robbie Keane is a shoe-in for consideration too and, objectively, probably has the best claim for the title. I never got to see Giles in action so i cant really evaluate him... If i was forced to rank...

1. Robbie
2. McGrath (my personal favourite)
3. Roy
4. Brady

Wow....I wouldn't have Robbie anywhere near the top myself. I'm the same in that I missed Giles but also Brady.

It'd be:

1. Roy
2. McGrath
3. Keane
4. Duff

Don't get me wrong, Robbie was gifted but he wasn't close to Roy's level at any stage in his career. I'd have Duff very close to Robbie and a big gap between Robbie and McGrath. I'd argue that Duff even did his stuff at a higher level than Robbie but when their careers and relative impact for Ireland are taken into account Robbie edges it.

On Roy's technical chops, you don't become a central midfielder for the best team of your time without technical ability. Discounting that because he didn't throw in a rabona or two seems a bit silly to me. His first touch was fantastic. He took the ball in whatever space he had and rarely lost it. His passing was very underrated. Again he rarely lost it but he also made brave passes forward to break lines. It's easy to take no risks and keep the ball but Keane made sure his passing moved the team into more dangerous positions. He was a good finisher as well. 51 odd goals in 471 games for Man U. Obviously his reading of the game was second to none. He covered every blade of grass without ever seeming to hurt his team's shape or be out of position. You could even look at his transition through different playing positions through his career as evidence he was a very technically astute footballer. The medal count doesn't lie.

[SkStu]

I know that Robbie Keane is a sometimes controversial pick around here (and definitely doesnt get the love he deserves) but you have to look at the statistics when breaking this down...
- underage tournament wins
- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time
- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours

In short, he brought a lot of joy to us as fans. Some of our best moments involved him hitting the net. Someone who we could be really proud of too as a person and pro. I get that he is not everyone's choice (though i never really understood why) but he really does have a strong case just on the numbers alone.

If i was being strict to my own critieria around statistics, you'd have to take Roys honours list at the club level into account and that would likely place him higher than McGrath when you take all the data points into account. But i just love McGrath, I was in awe of him.

edit: in reading your post again, i suppose a big part of the evaluation is how much weight you place on the players role, stats and performances with Ireland vs. how much you take club role, stats and performances into it.

[Razors left peg]

Robbie Keane is the most under appreciated sports star we've ever had!

[ontheotherhand]

- underage tournament wins
> hmmm......not sure I'd count this. Lot's of players do well underage.

- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time

>scoring goals was his job though. I'm not saying he wasn't the best we've ever had at his job, but was he better at his job than Keane or McGrath were at theirs? I don't think so but I can see why you'd say he was. He was superb with Berbatov for a few years but outside of that did he ever really get close to world class levels?

- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours
> League Cup?

I think he gets a bit of a bad rep as well to be fair. He was brilliant for us. The contractual stuff now is unfortunate but even when he was playing people were often on his back. Never understood it myself. He was by far and away the best striker I've seen for Ireland. But Roy was on a different level altogether for me.

[SkStu]

At the end of the day, these lists are always (and rightfully) filtered with a healthy dose of subjectivity so my comments aren't designed to try and convince you (or anyone) to change minds. And I am not here to build a case for Robbie above all else but... I think you are being unfair to dismiss his underage honours with us - and the Celtic Nations cup win too :D - especially in an international context. As well as dismissing his individual honours which are noteworthy and his trophies/medals when you look at his time with LA Galaxy where he is a bona-fide legend among the fans there.

The world class comment requires some level of definition... I think 148 caps, 68 goals and joint 6th UEFA goal scorer of all time (in addition to everything else) surely puts that to bed?

Razors post says all that needs to be said.

[SkStu]

Let me add a little more fuel to the fire... if Roy had shown up in 2002, there's more than a fair chance he would be #1 or #2 in my list.

[ontheotherhand]

Let me add a little more fuel to the fire... if Roy had shown up in 2002, there's more than a fair chance he would be #1 or #2 in my list.


Not touching that. :D

[ontheotherhand]

At the end of the day, these lists are always (and rightfully) filtered with a healthy dose of subjectivity so my comments aren't designed to try and convince you (or anyone) to change minds. And I am not here to build a case for Robbie above all else but... I think you are being unfair to dismiss his underage honours with us - and the Celtic Nations cup win too :D - especially in an international context. As well as dismissing his individual honours which are noteworthy and his trophies/medals when you look at his time with LA Galaxy where he is a bona-fide legend among the fans there.

The world class comment requires some level of definition... I think 148 caps, 68 goals and joint 6th UEFA goal scorer of all time (in addition to everything else) surely puts that to bed?

Razors post says all that needs to be said.

I'm really pedantic when it comes to calling players world class but him being the joint 6th UEFA scorer of all time is pretty compelling to be fair. I think you have to take into account the opposition when looking at international records but to be joint 6th is phenomenal regardless. Thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware.

Either way, Robbie's great and I'd agree he is underrated by a large chunk of Irish football supporters.

[elatedscum]

He was higher when he retired as well, I guess joint 4th with Gerd Muller. And was then overtaken by Ronaldo and Lewandowski

[elatedscum]

As for greatest irish player:

1. Giles
2. Brady
3. Roy
4. McGrath
5. Robbie

I think I’ve seen enough video of Giles and Brady to make that call

[ontheotherhand]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie

[third policeman]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie


...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway

[ontheotherhand]

...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway


You including Whelan over Keane might be even odder than me including Hoolahan!

[elatedscum]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie

That’d be pretty much my team except Dave O’Leary instead of Dunne, as much as I love Richie. I’ve watched full games on video with a young O’Leary and it’s genuinely the closest thing I’ve ever seen to Virgil Van Dijk. His speed, his strength, his composure and his passing, just phenomenal - genuinely world class.

I suspect people a decade or two older than me might have Ray Houghton or Ronnie Whelan ahead of Duff or Wes, but for me, Wes is the best pure footballer I’ve seen live playing for ireland. He was the best player we had in euro 2016 and he was 34. Trap ignoring him was insane. He was Norwich best player, playing 37 games during 2011-12 (33 in the premier league) and he didn’t make the ireland squad for euro 2012, in fact he had never been called up by Trap at that stage, despite his outstanding performances in the championship and the premier league. The fact he was 30 when trap finally gave him a game and he received his second cap, just insane (he got a single cap off the bench just after trap arrived). He really should have been a guy who got 100 caps - he got 42 caps in his 30s. Trap basically didn’t want footballers and retrospectively it was very much to our detriment

[Razors left peg]

...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway
Any best ever Ireland team that doesn't include Roy Keane is simply nonsense. Whatever your feelings about him personally it's completely indisputable that he's one of greatest ever

[Snapshot]

As for greatest irish player:

1. Giles
2. Brady
3. Roy
4. McGrath
5. Robbie

I think I’ve seen enough video of Giles and Brady to make that call
I like your selection. Giles and Brady were undoubtedly world class. Roy just about, when the planets aligned. McGrath very close. But I'm disappointed with some posts about Robbie. A few fans' memories seem compromised by more recent headlines and prejudices - the pay-for-nothing FAI job, the lifestyle, showbiz missus, twitter gibberish etc. To exclude him from our top six players is puerile. All those goals and memories lost to petty cancel-culture.

[ontheotherhand]

I like your selection. Giles and Brady were undoubtedly world class. Roy just about, when the planets aligned. McGrath very close. But I'm disappointed with some posts about Robbie. A few fans' memories seem compromised by more recent headlines and prejudices - the pay-for-nothing FAI job, the lifestyle, showbiz missus, twitter gibberish etc. To exclude him from our top six players is puerile. All those goals and memories lost to petty cancel-culture.

None of that stuff should come into the equation. I wouldn't be too supportive of his stance on the FAI contract but anyone using that to say he isn't one of our best players ever is being unfair.

[osarusan]

I'm really pedantic when it comes to calling players world class but him being the joint 6th UEFA scorer of all time is pretty compelling to be fair. I think you have to take into account the opposition when looking at international records but to be joint 6th is phenomenal regardless. Thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware.

Either way, Robbie's great and I'd agree he is underrated by a large chunk of Irish football supporters.

You do, but everybody on the list filled their boots against weak opposition. Maybe there were fewer minnows back in Muller's day alright.

[tetsujin1979]

You do, but everybody on the list filled their boots against weak opposition. Maybe there were fewer minnows back in Muller's day alright.
Judge for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Gerd_M%C3%BC ller
His 68 goals includes five against both Albania and Cyprus, four against Switzerland

[SkStu]

Judge for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Gerd_M%C3%BC ller
His 68 goals includes five against both Albania and Cyprus, four against Switzerland

A quick review of Ronaldo's 115 goals for Portugal suggest that probably 55 of them were against the teams considered weaker opposition (defined by my trusted method of "yeah they're a bit crap").

[ontheotherhand]

You do, but everybody on the list filled their boots against weak opposition. Maybe there were fewer minnows back in Muller's day alright.


Yeah completely fair. I think there is a narrative around Robbie that he only did it against the lesser nations which is probably unfair. Maybe people remember the hattricks or all the goals against the Faroes but when you look down the list of countries he scored against he covered the bases well. Maybe he dropped off a bit towards the end and that skews people's memories. From 2011 to 2016 the only "good" side he scored against was Sweden. Either way, he was still the one scoring the goals and nobody else comes close for Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Robbie_Keane

[John83]

It was levelled at him long before 2011. I never bought it: no one scores that often against the good sides. That's why they're good.

[Diggs246]

He scored against all the world best
Germany
Spain
Italy
Holland ( 2000 imo Ireland greatest ever goal) it was an amazing team effort away to the Dutch

[tetsujin1979]

Ronaldo should equal Keane's record of scoring at least one international goal in 19 consecutive years this year. However, he's nowhere near Keane's record of scoring a goal in competitive internationals in 18 consecutive years - he only scored one goal in 2009, in a friendly against Finland

[jbyrne]

He scored against all the world best
Germany
Spain
Italy
Holland ( 2000 imo Ireland greatest ever goal) it was an amazing team effort away to the Dutch

and...
france
holland again
yugoslavia
play offs v iran and turkey
croatia
russia
sweden
3 2002 wc finals goals.....

[tetsujin1979]

This is interesting, an interview with the BBC reporter who got a few words from Keane in the airport in Saipan
https://www.the42.ie/roy-keane-interview-saipan-5768341-May2022/

[Snapshot]

This is interesting, an interview with the BBC reporter who got a few words from Keane in the airport in Saipan
https://www.the42.ie/roy-keane-interview-saipan-5768341-May2022/
All tip and no iceberg. About 1000 words to ham up seven. John le Carré he ain't.

[tetsujin1979]

What does Saipan mean to the next generation of Irish footballers?
https://www.the42.ie/saipan-roy-keane-5770945-May2022/

[John83]

"Honestly, no. I’d never heard about it. I know Roy Keane. He is the aggressive, angry guy."

Not the legendary midfielder who won everything at club level, not the national hero who dragged us to a tournament through a group of death, but the angry guy. Old Roy must be proud of his legacy there.

[pineapple stu]

Not surprising that it's the three foreign guys who'd never heard of it in fairness. You can see the story being passed down the generations in everyone else, but Romanians/Nigerians 20 years ago wouldn't have been as bothered, and it shows in the answers.

[tetsujin1979]

"Honestly, no. I’d never heard about it. I know Roy Keane. He is the aggressive, angry guy."

Not the legendary midfielder who won everything at club level, not the national hero who dragged us to a tournament through a group of death, but the angry guy. Old Roy must be proud of his legacy there.

Abankwah was born in 2004, Keane retired in 2006. He probably doesn't even remember him managing Sunderland or his time in charge of Ipswich.

For that generation, and all the ones following it, he's going to be the "aggressive, angry guy" on Sky Sports

It's the same way people have formed their opinions on analysts that they never saw play - Souness, Giles, etc,

[punkrocket]

Not surprising that it's the three foreign guys who'd never heard of it in fairness. You can see the story being passed down the generations in everyone else, but Romanians/Nigerians 20 years ago wouldn't have been as bothered, and it shows in the answers.

Mmmm, remarkable parallels to what Keane said to McCarthy.

[pineapple stu]

Not really? There's a very clear divide in that article between the guys who said "Yeah, my dad told me all about it and I heard this that and the other" and the guys who said "Don't know anything about it really". I think it's understandable too, so I don't share John83's surprise* at Keane being labelled the "angry guy"

* - he might be just bemused rather than surprised of course.

[third policeman]

Not really? There's a very clear divide in that article between the guys who said "Yeah, my dad told me all about it and I heard this that and the other" and the guys who said "Don't know anything about it really". I think it's understandable too, so I don't share John83's surprise* at Keane being labelled the "angry guy"

* - he might be just bemused rather than surprised of course.

I think the reference to “foreign guys” is probably not the best way of putting as they are all Irish. They are all from immigrant families snd it’s a fair point that their parents may be less aware / engaged in Irish football history. But in the context of this issue and the insinuations about genuine Irishness in Keane’s alleged comments, it’s a wee bit on the inappropriate/ clumsy side to describe any Irish footballers as being “foreign”

[John83]

N...I don't share John83's surprise* at Keane being labelled the "angry guy"

* - he might be just bemused rather than surprised of course.
Just taking the opportunity to scoff at him, really.

[Stuttgart88]

I didn't realise the FAI media guy released a statement that had only been authorised for release under certain circumstances. What a effing tool.

Saipan opened the door to Delaney and his disastrous tenure, and broke a special bond between fans and the MNT. The EPL had already become a threat to the team's popularity but as long as the team was doing well it was very high up in most people's affections and interest, but many Man U and other fans turned on the Irish team after that. That this coincided with the start of the IRFU teams' successful period really harmed the status of the MNT and I think it's only now starting to recover.

[tetsujin1979]

The main criticism levelled against Mick, and the FAI, was the lack of preparation. Supporters of Keane pointed out the control that Ferguson had on all aspects of the setup at United, and that nothing was left to chance. There's long passages of Keane's first autobiography that cover prematch meals, or the lack thereof. Was Harry's Challenge to blame for the performance against Austria in 1995? Or was it an aging side who were run ragged at the end of the season? Keane mentioned in the book that McCarthy met him before the start of the 2002 qualifiers to discuss aspects of the preparation like this, but before the first qualifier away to the Netherlands, there was no pasta available for the team in the hotel, and he let the manager know exactly what he thought about this. Keane went back to his room and ordered a pizza IIRC.

Professionalism had come into rugby in 1995, and the benefits of it were starting to show for the provincial sides - Ulster won the Heineken Cup in 1999, Munster reached the final in 2000 and 2002 - and the emergence of players like O'Gara, and O'Driscoll in the national side had led to increased coverage of the game. The national team itself had gone from never finishing higher than fourth in the five nations in the 90's to missing out on the Six Nations to England on points difference in 2001. The Celtic Tiger was starting to roar, and GAA sides like Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary's hurling teams were likewise lauded for their professional approach to an amateur sport. One of the common quotes on this was something like "the GAA are an amateur organisation operating at a professional level, the FAI are a professional organisation operating at an amateur level"

When Kerr was appointed, one of the points about his managerial style that was repeatedly brought up was his attention to detail in preparation for a game - there was a story about how he had a fleet of cars follow the team bus at St Pats in case it broke down, which it did before a game - and that appointing him manager would mean that a situation like Saipan would never occur again.