Saipan - 20 Years On

[Razors left peg]

I would have thought the distance from all the hype would have been part of the point of going to Saipan tbh

They could have stopped anywhere along the way to Japan, Saipan is so far out of the way it was ridiculous

[Fixer82]

I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.

It was actually Tom Humphries’ book ‘lap top dancing and nanny goats…’ something or other.

He said when writing Quinn’s book he mentioned it and Quinn said ‘yeah Roy never said that’.
Humphries published it on hearsay as time wasn’t on his side to go to print and get the story out.

Keane also says he asked Humphries to leave out the bit of him not respecting McCarthy and not to tell anyone after he said it, but he didn’t.

Great writer but questionable morals it must be said

[Fixer82]

The real movie I want to see is David Connolly’s handheld videocam footage on the island.

[pineapple stu]

They could have stopped anywhere along the way to Japan, Saipan is so far out of the way it was ridiculous
But it was intended so be well out of the way. And if was only a couple of hours' flight to Japan then.

I'm not seeing the big issue tbh?

[Razors left peg]

But it was intended so be well out of the way. And if was only a couple of hours' flight to Japan then.

I'm not seeing the big issue tbh?

The flight to Japan is long enough, why would you add another 4 or 5 hours to it? Saipan is in the middle of the Pacific, nowhere close to Japan, and had no facilities to accommodate a professional football team. I just got off an 11 hour flight on Monday, I wouldnt have appreciated another 1 hour let alone going off where they did.

[The Fly]

It was actually Tom Humphries’ book ‘lap top dancing and nanny goats…’ something or other.

He said when writing Quinn’s book he mentioned it and Quinn said ‘yeah Roy never said that’.
Humphries published it on hearsay as time wasn’t on his side to go to print and get the story out.

Keane also says he asked Humphries to leave out the bit of him not respecting McCarthy and not to tell anyone after he said it, but he didn’t.

Great writer but questionable morals it must be said
Now there's an understatement.

[SkStu]

The flight to Japan is long enough, why would you add another 4 or 5 hours to it? Saipan is in the middle of the Pacific, nowhere close to Japan, and had no facilities to accommodate a professional football team. I just got off an 11 hour flight on Monday, I wouldnt have appreciated another 1 hour let alone going off where they did.

It wasn’t a layover though so I’m not sure what the problem is in terms of flight length… they were there for about 10 days if I recall correctly to acclimatize prior to gearing up properly when they reached their main base in Japan. And looking at the location on a map, there’s no where that is practical as a pre-camp base in the vicinity - if you exclude SK and Japan themselves. In other words, if not Saipan then where is the obviously better choice? It just leaves the facilities there which, and I believe him on this, McCartthy said were of secondary importance and not the intent of the trip.

[Razors left peg]

It wasn’t a layover though so I’m not sure what the problem is in terms of flight length… they were there for about 10 days if I recall correctly to acclimatize prior to gearing up properly when they reached their main base in Japan. And looking at the location on a map, there’s no where that is practical as a pre-camp base in the vicinity - if you exclude SK and Japan themselves. In other words, if not Saipan then where is the obviously better choice? It just leaves the facilities there which, and I believe him on this, McCartthy said were of secondary importance and not the intent of the trip.
They could have gone anywhere in Asia if they wanted to acclimatize, going off into the middle of the Pacific made no sense

[sbgawa]

I've never understood how a supposed professional team.pre world cup could spend 10 days somewhere where supposedly professional level facilities were not important. It's just nonsense , it wouldn't be tolerated now and was daft then.

[pineapple stu]

They could have gone anywhere in Asia if they wanted to acclimatize, going off into the middle of the Pacific made no sense
They couldn't though. They couldn't have gone to a large city or somewhere at serious altitude or one of the more repressive regimes or somewhere significantly west of Japan (because of the risk of jetlag flying on)

As Stu says, it wasn't a layover; it was somewhere to get away from the media of the Premier League and the World Cup, to bind as a group before heading on to their base in Japan, which was excellent.

It's a weird choice for sure. But I'm not seeing what the issue is

[seanfhear]

What happens in Saipan should stay in Saipan !

[Razors left peg]

They couldn't though. They couldn't have gone to a large city or somewhere at serious altitude or one of the more repressive regimes or somewhere significantly west of Japan (because of the risk of jetlag flying on)

As Stu says, it wasn't a layover; it was somewhere to get away from the media of the Premier League and the World Cup, to bind as a group before heading on to their base in Japan, which was excellent.

It's a weird choice for sure. But I'm not seeing what the issue is

Open a map, look at where Saipan is. If you still don't see the issue I have no further argument.

[seanfhear]

Open a map, look at where Saipan is. If you still don't see the issue I have no further argument.
Did they have airplanes ? !

[Razors left peg]

Did they have airplanes ? !
Funnily enough they did... but no footballs

[seanfhear]

Funnily enough they did... but no footballs
Fly me to the moon !

[pineapple stu]

Open a map, look at where Saipan is. If you still don't see the issue I have no further argument.
I know where Saipan is. It's about a three-hour flight from Japan. You say they could have gone anywhere in Asia - but most of Asia is more than a three-hour flight from Japan.

That seems your only objection - but I don't understand why it's an issue. Somewhere out of the way is, by its very nature, going to be a bit out of the way. But three and a bit hours is hardly excessive.

[seanfhear]

I know where Saipan is. It's about a three-hour flight from Japan. You say they could have gone anywhere in Asia - but most of Asia is more than a three-hour flight from Japan.

That seems your only objection - but I don't understand why it's an issue. Somewhere out of the way is, by its very nature, going to be a bit out of the way. But three and a bit hours is hardly excessive.

Sure they could have gone to Belmullet if they really wanted to be isolated !

[Razors left peg]

I know where Saipan is. It's about a three-hour flight from Japan. You say they could have gone anywhere in Asia - but most of Asia is more than a three-hour flight from Japan.

That seems your only objection - but I don't understand why it's an issue. Somewhere out of the way is, by its very nature, going to be a bit out of the way. But three and a bit hours is hardly excessive.
The next world cup is in the US, let's see if any of the European teams playing in LA will have a build up camp in Hawaii

[SkStu]

They could have gone anywhere in Asia if they wanted to acclimatize, going off into the middle of the Pacific made no sense

If not Saipan, then where was the obviously better choice? Japan and South Korea are fairly disconnected.

[Razors left peg]

If not Saipan, then where was the obviously better choice? Japan and South Korea are fairly disconnected.

How about any place that any other team prepping for that World Cup based themselves before the tournament. Somewhere that wasn't hours out of the way in the middle of the Pacific. If it didn't matter cos it was only a flight away, why not go to Australia? South Africa maybe, how about the Aran Islands... it was nonsense and we only ended up there because Ray Tracey got his pockets filled

[pineapple stu]

The next world cup is in the US, let's see if any of the European teams playing in LA will have a build up camp in Hawaii
It wasn't a build-up camp though. It was a break from the hectic Premier League season, and a chance to recharge ahead of a hectic World Cup campaign. The opposite of a build-up camp in a way.

Was it really necessary? Maybe not. But if it was decided that sort of break would be good, then I'm still not seeing any real issues with Saipan as a venue. It was only a short flight away, so your Australia/South Africa comparisons aren't valid (and South Africa to Tokyo would bring in jetlag too).

[Razors left peg]

20 years hasnt changed anyones opinions on this so Im not going to keep going over and back trying to persuade anyone why Saipan was ridiculous. I am genuinely surprised though, I thought it had been well established by now that it was a disaster to go there and that everyone pretty much agreed on that. I was obviously wrong.

[SkStu]

Saipan was a disaster but not for the reasons you are putting out there. It was a disaster because our Captain and Manager had a massive falling out based on relationship issues that went back to 1994 that Keane just couldn't let go of. It wasn't a disaster because of poor pitches (it wasn't a training camp). It wasn't a disaster because it was far from Japan/SK (any other alternative would be). It wasn't a disaster because someone got their pockets lined (that came out later). If Keane and McCarthy not had a bust up, we'd never have even heard of the place.

[seanfhear]

Somebody should have brought some joints for Roy Keane !

[Razors left peg]

Saipan was a disaster but not for the reasons you are putting out there. It was a disaster because our Captain and Manager had a massive falling out based on relationship issues that went back to 1994 that Keane just couldn't let go of. It wasn't a disaster because of poor pitches (it wasn't a training camp). It wasn't a disaster because it was far from Japan/SK (any other alternative would be). It wasn't a disaster because someone got their pockets lined (that came out later). If Keane and McCarthy not had a bust up, we'd never have even heard of the place.

Not a training camp but they were training there and the lack of footballs and bad pitches were a big issue.... but ok!

[SkStu]

Not a training camp but they were training there and the lack of footballs and bad pitches were a big issue.... but ok!

Look, if I have to spell out everything to the minute detail in terms of what some of the shorthand (like training camp) means, we'll be here all day. You know what I mean. There were no drills, no cardio stuff, etc - none of the stuff you would see when they actually got to the camp. It was about team bonding, morale, relaxation and recuperation primarily and significantly. If you want to dispute that then say so directly.

A big issue... for Keane. Pretty much everyone else more or less - even if it wasn't perfect - understood what they were there for and got on with things as best they could.

[Razors left peg]

Look, if I have to spell out everything to the minute detail in terms of what some of the shorthand (like training camp) means, we'll be here all day. You know what I mean. There were no drills, no cardio stuff, etc - none of the stuff you would see when they actually got to the camp. It was about team bonding, morale, relaxation and recuperation primarily and significantly. If you want to dispute that then say so directly.

A big issue... for Keane. Pretty much everyone else more or less - even if it wasn't perfect - understood what they were there for and got on with things as best they could.

Put back on your knickers there Stuey before they get too twisted like a good lad. I fully understand what a training camp is, this was a training camp albeit a light one. Saying they were just there to relax and nothing else is plain nonsense. There was training involved, hence it was a training camp.

If they just wanted to relax they could have all spent the week in Bangkok getting "massaged". This was a professional football team preparing for a World Cup and yet you still all these years later think it was acceptable to bring them off to a place that was so logistically difficult to get to the footballs couldnt even find their way there.

[texidub]

We played pretty well at that WC without Keane so staying in Saipan didn't do that much harm to the rest of the squad, in fairness - even if the lack of facilities there sounds crazy unprofessional.

[SkStu]

Put back on your knickers there Stuey before they get too twisted like a good lad. I fully understand what a training camp is, this was a training camp albeit a light one. Saying they were just there to relax and nothing else is plain nonsense. There was training involved, hence it was a training camp.

If they just wanted to relax they could have all spent the week in Bangkok getting "massaged". This was a professional football team preparing for a World Cup and yet you still all these years later think it was acceptable to bring them off to a place that was so logistically difficult to get to the footballs couldnt even find their way there.

I'm doing grand, thanks. I'm just not sure what your argument is and i have tried to refute them all as i see them in #273 but you keep moving the goalposts. They could have gone to Bangkok instead is your latest position. OK - they could have. They'd still have another flight and jetlag to deal with which was your opening gambit (complete nonsense by the way)... but Roy and Mick would never have fallen out there, I suppose...

[OwlsFan]

If Keane and McCarthy not had a bust up, we'd never have even heard of the place.

You obviously don't know your WW2 ! I had heard of Saipan well before that. Site of one the biggest battles in the Pacific war with I think about 50K dead and about 100k wounded. Puts the McCarthy/Keane thing in the halfpenny place.

[Razors left peg]

I'm doing grand, thanks. I'm just not sure what your argument is and i have tried to refute them all as i see them in #273 but you keep moving the goalposts. They could have gone to Bangkok instead is your latest position. OK - they could have. They'd still have another flight and jetlag to deal with which was your opening gambit (complete nonsense by the way)... but Roy and Mick would never have fallen out there, I suppose...

The Bangkok "suggestion" I would have thought was obvious sarcasm given the massage part!

At no point did I ever say Keane and McCarthy wouldnt have fallen out somewhere else, in fact I clearly said in my initial post on this that "Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan was weird".

The Genesis Report agrees with my opinion that Saipan was a disaster. Would it have been as difficult to get the required equipment to a place less isolated and difficult to get to?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/fai-comes-in-for-harsh-criticism-following-inquiry-report-1.445930
"It highlights the absence of training gear, footballs, isotonic drinks and medical equipment in Saipan and describes the Republic's preparations as under-resourced in comparison to the build-up of other nations"


But I suppose at the end of the day we are only little old Ireland and we'll just go on the pi$$ and sing rebel songs wherever we are.

[SkStu]

Okie doke. We’ll leave it there so, Eamonn.

[Razors left peg]

Okie doke. We’ll leave it there so, Eamonn.

Alright. It was a good debate, not a great debate Bill!

[pineapple stu]

None of those criticisms relate to Saipan itself though.

The FAI could easily have made a similar balls up of it anywhere in the world. That's not Saipan's fault

[Razors left peg]

None of those criticisms relate to Saipan itself though.

The FAI could easily have made a similar balls up of it anywhere in the world. That's not Saipan's fault

Ok, last thing Im saying on it.... Saipan was the main issue. The reason those things were not there was because of the logistical difficulty of getting to Saipan. Its an isolated small Island in the middle of nowhere and didnt have any facilities on the Island itself or a huge amount of transport in and out of it. Try book a flight there yourself even today and you'll do well to get there in under 3 transfers

[pineapple stu]

Plenty of two-transfer options on skyscanner. Dublin - London - Hong Kong - Saipan is one of the easier ones. Dublin - Doha (or Abu Dhabi) - Incheon - Saipan is an option too. And that's for people; DHL are a worldwide company who specialise in stuff like this.

[Razors left peg]

Ah thats where they went wrong so.... They used An Post rather than DHL, mystery solved!

[seanfhear]

We played pretty well at that WC without Keane so staying in Saipan didn't do that much harm to the rest of the squad, in fairness - even if the lack of facilities there sounds crazy unprofessional.
Excellent point.

[pineapple stu]

Ah thats where they went wrong so.... They used An Post rather than DHL, mystery solved!
Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.

[Razors left peg]

Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.
Sweet Jebus ;)

[pineapple stu]

It's really hard to know what your gripe is tbh.

It's hard to get to - at least three transfers! No it's not; there's a straightforward route.

It's far from Japan - no it's not.

Why not go to Australia or South Africa? Because they are far from Japan.

There was a one-day delay in getting footballs there - that's the island's fault how?

You're not really putting a great case across here.

[seanfhear]

Roy Keane should have left his bad mood at home.

[CraftyToePoke]

Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.

Was part of Genesis I think.
An Post & their failings to get the balls onto the right island.

[Razors left peg]

Was part of Genesis I think.
An Post & their failings to get the balls onto the right island.

On page 34, Section 12 of the Genesis report I believe the exact quote was "The FAI took no learnings from An Post previous losses of Shergar and Lord Lucan. If this information was not Airgapped by senior leadership Saipan would have had more footballs than people on the Island"

Pretty damning to be fair!

[Fixer82]

Oh yeah, McAteer also said he never called him an ‘English c**t’

Also, McCarthy said he asked him to come back and he said no

[ger121]

So this is what it is like on the Ireland National Team side of the house. I wouldn’t even have known about this thread it if it wasn’t for the “Future of foot.ie” thread. See it is working already in spreading the gospel of the foot. Amen brothers!

[The Fly]

Look, if I have to spell out everything to the minute detail in terms of what some of the shorthand (like training camp) means, we'll be here all day. You know what I mean. There were no drills, no cardio stuff, etc - none of the stuff you would see when they actually got to the camp. It was about team bonding, morale, relaxation and recuperation primarily and significantly. If you want to dispute that then say so directly.

A big issue... for Keane. Pretty much everyone else more or less - even if it wasn't perfect - understood what they were there for and got on with things as best they could.
I have some sympathy for McCarthy but ultimately the management and the FAI were responsible for the whole Saipan debacle.

And there's no point in saying it was a big issue for Keane and pretty much no one else. He was our best and most important player for a reason, and managers have to adapt their approach to particular players.

[EalingGreen]

Maybe it's my own personal antipathy towards Keane showing, but re the facilities etc, wasn't this a case of being right in what you say, but not being right to say it?

That is, someone might* have screwed up in selecting Saipan, but surely that's for the post-mortems? And in the meantime you just have to get on with it, especially if you're the Captain, who should be fostering squad harmony, not sabotaging it. Always seemed liked a (typical) lack of true leadership on Keane's part to me.


* - I said "someone" since it may not all have been Mick's doing, and "might", since it depends on what Mick wanted to get out of it. In which case Keane might just have had a quiet word with him beforehand. That's if Keane has ever had a quiet word with anyone. :wink:

[seanfhear]

Maybe it's my own personal antipathy towards Keane showing, but re the facilities etc, wasn't this a case of being right in what you say, but not being right to say it?

That is, someone might* have screwed up in selecting Saipan, but surely that's for the post-mortems? And in the meantime you just have to get on with it, especially if you're the Captain, who should be fostering squad harmony, not sabotaging it. Always seemed liked a (typical) lack of true leadership on Keane's part to me.


* - I said "someone" since it may not all have been Mick's doing, and "might", since it depends on what Mick wanted to get out of it. In which case Keane might just have had a quiet word with him beforehand. That's if Keane has ever had a quiet word with anyone. :wink:
Keane = Captain Complainer.

[Fixer82]

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well