Republic of Ireland V Gibraltar(A) 4th Sept & Georgia(H) 7th Sept 2015 - Euro 2016 Q [Archive] - Page 9

brine3

08/09/2015, 9:40 AM

And some of the stuff that has been said by you about Keane hasn't been unfair on him? Come off it.

How have I been unfair on him? It's a fact that he is 35 years old. It's a fact that his pace is completely gone and his fitness diminished. It's a fact that he has no aerial or physical presence. If he was banging in the goals then none of that would matter. But he has only been getting the goals against the minnows. Long at least gives you pace, fitness and aerial presence.

I get the feeling that people here have the 20-30 year old Keane in their minds. I'd pick him too! Any day of the week! But that Keane no longer exists.

elroy

08/09/2015, 9:40 AM

I would imagine the Scots mentality will be that they need to beat the Poles. That would be worst result for us. Not sure I see Scotland winning it but a big Hampden night etc, could happen. Equally the poles could play counter attack football and pick them off.

I think we should focus on getting a point against Germany first and foremost. Similar to the nil nil in Croke Park would be lovely.

OwlsFan

08/09/2015, 9:47 AM

That Georgian team probably would have beaten us in the 2012 campaign, they were better that any other incarnation we have played against.

Disagree. They were no better than Macedonia or Armenia, whom we beat both home and away in that campaign. None of these teams is a walk-over.

I honestly don't see any great improvement since the Trap era except we now play without wingers and create even less. However, we do put the opposition under a bit more pressure and if we can be kept up for 90 minutes, there is a hope they'll crack. It took a bit of magic from Hendrick otherwise we were staring down the barrel of a 0-0. The advent of Long over Keane at least gave us the second option for the long ball (no pun intended) as otherwise we only had Walters to aim for. They both won some better ball in the second half which raised the spirits of everyone. There was more tempo in that half but still not a huge amount of creativity. We tried to play the ball out on occasions which usually ended up on the ball going back to Shay who would nervously kick the ball or we would lose it up front.

Positives:

(a) We won.
(b) Great goal.
(c) Game time for Ciaran Clarke and Robbie Brady (at full back)
(d) Generally defended well.
(e) We were able to up our game.

Negatives

(a) Lapses by Robbie Brady early on might have cost us.
(b) Terrible first half
(c) Robbie K without support is not an option.
(d) Relatively poor attendance but a game on a Monday evening for fans from the country is unfair.
(e) Shay's kicking/clearances - don't remember that being an issue before - absence of game time affecting him?

However, as my signature says, I don't worry too much about performances. It's a result driven game and now the Germans come to town and all the empty seats around me will be filled again and we will set up to contain them with a similar formation. Their defence is not that solid and who knows. Either way, the game against Poland will now have something riding on it which wasn't looking likely a few months ago.

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 9:53 AM

Walters was so close to offside for the goal!!I bought The Indo this morning and there's a great aerial photo of Hendrick squaring the ball for Walters. Walters was well behind the ball at the moment it was struck. He did very well to get the touch under close attention from two defenders.

tetsujin1979

08/09/2015, 10:03 AM

Another point on the attendance, the weekend also included the Gaelic football semi final replay, the hurling final, and electric picnic, with north of 150,000 total attendance. You'd have to imagine after attending at least one of those that a Monday night qualifier against one of the groups weaker sides is not an attractive proposition

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 10:03 AM

Steven Reid, as usual, gives a good account of the action. Complimentary about Whelan (though on seeing replays I think the ref was arguably within his rights to penalise that header - a forearm into the guy's back despite an otherwise clean header) and explains what Long brought that Keane lacked, the ability to spread out a defence that had formed a solid block that Keane was unable to trouble.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/steven-reid-glenn-whelan-proves-value-to-team-and-will-be-huge-loss-against-germany-31509102.html

Elsewhere in The Indo John Fallon talks about Carsley taking up a coaching role at the FA and bemoans how ex-internationals aren't used. Cunningham, Kinsella and Kilbane were overlooked by Dokter despite offering their services, although they have done some ad hoc roles.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/exireland-stalwart-carsley-takes-up-coaching-role-with-english-fa-31509108.html

jbyrne

08/09/2015, 10:09 AM

Olé Olé

08/09/2015, 10:12 AM

Agree he should have got something on it. Did he even get any nick? It seemed to at best glance off him leg, hit the guy behind him, bounce back off Long and then out of play.

I might need another look but I thought he only got fresh air.

McClean's thinking was clearly to put enough power on it so that it would beat the defence and Long could steer it into the net. Maybe he did get too much on it though but he did excellent work in beating the man and getting the ball in.

Olé Olé

08/09/2015, 10:17 AM

Another point on the attendance, the weekend also included a Gaelic football replay, the hurling final, and electric picnic, with north of 150,000 total attendance. You'd have to imagine after attending at least one of those that a Monday night qualifier against one of the groups weaker sides is not an attractive proposition

Aye, and a Monday night game, as Owlsfan stated, isn't great for those coming from the country.

I was able to make the Scotland games (Friday and Saturday) but I don't think I'll manage to get to the Germany game due to work commitments (getting a half day on a Thursday and getting home very, very late might not be feasible).

brine3

08/09/2015, 11:30 AM

Just watching the replay of the goal and the movement of Long and Walters was very clever. The Georgian number 5 would have been in a great position in the six yard box to intercept the cross from Hendrick, but Long ran backwards as soon as he saw Hendrick was coming through, and the Georgian number 5 followed Long out of the six yard box and space was opened up. Walters also brilliantly anticipates and runs over the the front post.

OwlsFan

08/09/2015, 12:37 PM

people forget that when we were in the old Lansdowne it held only 33,000 seats and tickets were available for most matches.

Are you sure about tickets being available because I remember post-Jack there was a large waiting list to join the block-bookers ?

What annoyed me was when I went to re-order my season ticket and to choose a seat, most of the seats around me were allegedly gone and yet last night I could have swung a pole-vaulter's pole around me and perhaps hit 4 people. Have they all bought tickets and not turned up?

bennocelt

08/09/2015, 12:38 PM

people forget that when we were in the old Lansdowne it held only 33,000 seats and tickets were available for most matches.

Not in the good old days of Italia 1990 and the rest

geysir

08/09/2015, 1:02 PM

Disagree. They were no better than Macedonia or Armenia, whom we beat both home and away in that campaign. None of these teams is a walk-over.
Afair we struggled to beat Georgia in Dublin in the 2010 campaign against a team which faded, fitness wise. How we performed against Macedonia and Armenia who we beat in different ways in the 2012 campaign is largely irrelevant.
Probably an irrelevant discussion :)
I thought we were average enough last night and at the same time I don't think Georgia were rubbish.
In this campaign, the Georgian performance that beat Scotland looked handy enough to me. Where was Giles' then with the withering criticism that they didn't look like a team that wanted to win? Each team have their own targets and Georgia, coming off a long spell of poor results have a new coach and look an improved outfit, now playing for a draw, defensive/counter attack, in a tough away fixture against a team which is stronger than them.
Of course we would never adopt such a strategy :rolleyes:

Spudulika

08/09/2015, 1:54 PM

Afair we struggled to beat Georgia in Dublin in the 2010 campaign against a team which faded, fitness wise. How we performed against Macedonia and Armenia who we beat in different ways in the 2012 campaign is largely irrelevant.
Probably an irrelevant discussion :)
I thought we were average enough last night and at the same time I don't think Georgia were rubbish.
In this campaign, the Georgian performance that beat Scotland looked handy enough to me. Where was Giles' then with the withering criticism that they didn't look like a team that wanted to win? Each team have their own targets and Georgia, coming off a long spell of poor results have a new coach and look an improved outfit, now playing for a draw, defensive/counter attack, in a tough away fixture against a team which is stronger than them.
Of course we would never adopt such a strategy :rolleyes:

We robbed Georgia that night in a poor reffing display, though we played well. Against Armenia in Dublin we got some help from the ref to beat a decent Armenian team.

Georgia are no mugs and they came to play, 60 minutes and then that's it. Armenia do the same. Georgian football should be far further on, yet the domestic league and club system makes ours look like a Bundesliga, and the mentality of the players is terrible. And when it's the 3rd sport in the country.....it's always difficult.

Torn-Ado

08/09/2015, 2:07 PM

Good result albeit quite frustrating first half. It'll be interesting to see how Ireland do against Germany without Whelan and McLean. Will O Neill put in a more attack minded player like McGeady?

jbyrne

08/09/2015, 2:13 PM

Not in the good old days of Italia 1990 and the rest

ok. I should have stipulated once it became all seater.
in my experience only the bigger matches were hard to get tickets for once it became all-seater. I even got a couple of spares for some friends for the 2001 Holland match without too much effort.

pineapple stu

08/09/2015, 2:32 PM

Irish international match crowds compare very favourably to most other countries (certainly on a pro-rata basis)

Shouldn't be overlooked when whining about crowds in Lansdowne.

OwlsFan

08/09/2015, 4:42 PM

Irish international match crowds compare very favourably to most other countries (certainly on a pro-rata basis)

Shouldn't be overlooked when whining about crowds in Lansdowne.

Is that the correct use of the term pro-rata ? Just doesn't seem right to me but I know where you're coming from.

Whining ? Possibly but can one not adversely comment on something without the use of the pejorative term "whining"? It's just frustrating to be sitting among empty seats for a win or bust qualifier and know that those seats will be full for the German game and, if we qualify, more people will go to France for the games than were at this game. But as I said, a Monday night is Dublin is probably just as unappealing as a rainy night in Georgia.

DeLorean

08/09/2015, 5:02 PM

In this campaign, the Georgian performance that beat Scotland looked handy enough to me. Where was Giles' then with the withering criticism that they didn't look like a team that wanted to win?

I just watched the analysis there and I thought Giles was quite complimentary towards Georgia, but he said they looked like a side that didn't believe they could win, as opposed to actually not wanting to win. They were obviously content with a draw but he felt as half time that they played some of the better football, but just lacked that real belief that they could beat us. I suppose the mindset for a team like that is usually completely different away from home. They had history of beating Scotland and know that they can make Tbilisi uncomfortable for the best of them. Giles singled out 'No.8' and 'No.10' for special praise in the first half. :)

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 5:28 PM

George Caulkin's match review in the UK Times was very good, but it's subscription only. He says we're the team that takes the fun out of functional, which is fair. Makes a good point about our momentum versus Scotland's and in all was very good to read the views of a neutral writer.

pineapple stu

08/09/2015, 5:41 PM

Is that the correct use of the term pro-rata ? Just doesn't seem right to me but I know where you're coming from.
Possibly not - I was thinking about it but couldn't work out what the correct word is.

Also, whining possibly is incorrect as well - though I'd just seen Sadlier's comments about how the game disproved the "Self proclaimed best fans in the world" title. Even though that title seems to be given by the media, and then taken away by the media.

I think the All Ireland and Electric Picnic had an impact on the crowd. Also ticket prices and the fact the country is still screwed financially. And yet our attendances are still very solid.

boysingreen

08/09/2015, 5:41 PM

We took a point off this German mob on their own patch. Should be no bother pumping them at Fortress Aviva. 😁

tricky_colour

08/09/2015, 6:23 PM

Just realised we can top the group!!! http://www.pic4ever.com/images/greenstars.gif

Win our last two matches and Georgia get anything in Germany we top the group!!! http://www.pic4ever.com/images/greenstars.gif

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 7:05 PM

I was just thinking about who'll replace McClean. I reckon it'll be Jack Grealish. The FAI should give him the gate money.

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 7:51 PM

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 7:54 PM

We just interviewed an au pair. Her name was Georgia. I thought "6 points to us and you beat Scotland. You're hired".

jbyrne

08/09/2015, 8:34 PM

Just on the point of the crowd and Sadlier's comments, Pat Fenlon reckons - rightly in my opinion - that disillusionment with the FAI in general is a large part of the reason the fans are staying away.

excuses excuses. support for the team should not be conditional on what the fai are up to. were the fai ever any better and yet we have filled the stadium countless times over the years.

did the fans only become disillushioned since the england and scotland matches sold out only a few months ago? truth is last nights game wasnt a big enough event for our sporting event junkies. watch their disillusion dissapear when germany are in town or we make the play offs.

Stuttgart88

08/09/2015, 8:58 PM

True, but I think the public knows there is something rotten at the state of Irish football which prevents them from attaching to the national team in an " unconditional love" kind of way. I don't think the games you mentioned were sell outs - my recollection was all kinds of concerted efforts to sell tickets - and of course Mondays don't help, but I think Fenlon was on the money wrt the general point of the public failing to get fully behind the team not being fully down to lack of results, lack of style etc.

Yard of Pace

08/09/2015, 8:59 PM

Plenty of people have just shelled out a fair amount of money on school fees and associated costs for the nippers who went back last week.

DannyInvincible

08/09/2015, 9:54 PM

excuses excuses. support for the team should not be conditional on what the fai are up to. were the fai ever any better and yet we have filled the stadium countless times over the years.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an element of truth to it. It's not that the FAI have changed from better to worse; it's that the mood of Irish society and its degree of tolerance has shifted. In the good oul' days, that was perhaps "just the way things were". People put up with amateurism or even laughed it off, possibly with a slight degree of affection; in a "they're crooked, but they're our crooks" or "those guys... what'll they do next?" type of way. I don't think the public had professional-standard expectations or expectations as high as they might do now in corporate, post-Celtic Tiger Ireland. Nowadays, the FAI is just seen as closed, corrupt, self-serving and undemocratic; it's a dinosaur in the age of information, communication, transparency and professionalism. People see and know that and are probably happy enough not to feed it. Perhaps the dawn of the internet - a more democratic and public platform to offer and share critique - opened people's eyes somewhat or maybe Saipan was the start of it, I'm not sure; either way, people are put off by it and it is bound to be a factor.

Crosby87

08/09/2015, 10:32 PM

Brian Kerr says Ireland are too predictable
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/brian-kerr-midfield-diamond-makes-ireland-too-predictable-1.2343723

tricky_colour

09/09/2015, 12:32 AM

Brian Kerr says Ireland are too predictable
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/brian-kerr-midfield-diamond-makes-ireland-too-predictable-1.2343723

I was not expecting him to say that!

pineapple stu

09/09/2015, 6:48 AM

True, but I think the public knows there is something rotten at the state of Irish football
I don't really buy that - this is the same public that, by and large, *is* the something rotten at the heart of irish football by neglecting it, particularly at LoI level.

Sounds like a convenient excuse to justify not going to watch a poor team any more.

jbyrne

09/09/2015, 7:29 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an element of truth to it. It's not that the FAI have changed from better to worse; it's that the mood of Irish society and its degree of tolerance has shifted. In the good oul' days, that was perhaps "just the way things were". People put up with amateurism or even laughed it off, possibly with a slight degree of affection; in a "they're crooked, but they're our crooks" or "those guys... what'll they do next?" type of way. I don't think the public had professional-standard expectations or expectations as high as they might do now in corporate, post-Celtic Tiger Ireland. Nowadays, the FAI is just seen as closed, corrupt, self-serving and undemocratic; it's a dinosaur in the age of information, communication, transparency and professionalism. People see and know that and are probably happy enough not to feed it. Perhaps the dawn of the internet - a more democratic and public platform to offer and share critique - opened people's eyes somewhat or maybe Saipan was the start of it, I'm not sure; either way, people are put off by it and it is bound to be a factor.

but they are willing to set these views to one side when the bigger matches come to town? I don't buy that for one second.

Plenty of people have just shelled out a fair amount of money on school fees and associated costs for the nippers who went back last week.

is there a special grant available to the 165,000 who attended Croke Park over the weekend and spent €80+ for the privilege?

OwlsFan

09/09/2015, 9:19 AM

I don't really buy that - this is the same public that, by and large, *is* the something rotten at the heart of irish football by neglecting it, particularly at LoI level.

Sounds like a convenient excuse to justify not going to watch a poor team any more.

As I think I have said on numerous occasions, there is a hardcore following of 20k fans who will support the team come hell or high water. The other 20k also support the team, but conditionally (ie big game, big opponents, attractive football,Liverpool aren't on the box etc). The rest of the country will support the team if we get to a championship. C'est la guerre. Perceived FAI malfeasance might affect a few hundred at most I'd say.

Yard of Pace

09/09/2015, 9:21 AM

is there a special grant available to the 165,000 who attended Croke Park over the weekend and spent €80+ for the privilege?

No, but I'd beg, borrow or steal to see Limerick in a football semi-final or an AI senior hurling final. I wouldn't to see Ireland play Georgia..........as I need the few bob to travel to Thurles on Saturday to see Limerick in the U-21 AI final.

Can't do everything, though I wish I could. And it'd be rare I'd miss a home match.

KK77

09/09/2015, 9:37 AM

As I think I have said on numerous occasions, there is a hardcore following of 20k fans who will support the team come hell or high water. The other 20k also support the team, but conditionally (ie big game, big opponents, attractive football,Liverpool aren't on the box etc). The rest of the country will support the team if we get to a championship. C'est la guerre. Perceived FAI malfeasance might affect a few hundred at most I'd say.

Would Liverpool be on the box during an international match?

tetsujin1979

09/09/2015, 9:38 AM

is there a special grant available to the 165,000 who attended Croke Park over the weekend and spent €80+ for the privilege?
No, but if you'd spent €80+ on a ticket, plus travel, food + drink for yourself, and possibly one or two more, only 24 hours earlier, then you'd be less likely to spend the same again on Monday night.

jbyrne

09/09/2015, 9:39 AM

Would Liverpool be on the box during an international match?

their u17s may be on kop tv which is a big draw for many in this country

KK77

09/09/2015, 9:59 AM

their u17s may be on kop tv which is a big draw for many in this country

Is it really?

DeLorean

09/09/2015, 10:14 AM

No, but if you'd spent €80+ on a ticket, plus travel, food + drink for yourself, and possibly one or two more, only 24 hours earlier, then you'd be less likely to spend the same again on Monday night.

In fairness, I think jbyrnes point was that shelling out on school books didn't stop people attending the GAA matches, but it was suggested as a reason for people missing the soccer. The combination of both, of course, wouldn't help. There are multiple different factors obviously, Monday night, Electric picnic, GAA games, not a particularly glamorous tie all strong suggestions I feel, but I would be shocked if the public's perception of the FAI was anywhere remotely near the top. The people the FAI bug the most are the very ones who were probably there, i.e. the ones who actually care.

jbyrne

09/09/2015, 10:15 AM

Is it really?

ask various lge of Ireland clubs how many turned up when they had pre season friendlies against various liverpool reserve teams over the last few years.
it summed it up for me when someone I know said he would rather liverpool win the lge than Ireland win the world cup after I returned from japan 02. I know many more like him

KK77

09/09/2015, 10:18 AM

ask various lge of Ireland clubs how many turned up when they had pre season friendlies against various liverpool reserve teams over the last few years.
it summed it up for me when someone I know said he would rather liverpool win the lge than Ireland win the world cup after I returned from japan 02. I know many more like him

Horses for courses I suppose.

Spudulika

09/09/2015, 10:42 AM

3 moments stick in my head for "recent" Irish football.
1. Shels won in Europe, packed the place, then played home to Derry between or just after the ties (I think it was) and there were tumbleweeds rolling about.
2. Met people going to Tolka for a match, basically families and kids. Was delighted until I asked were Shels at home? They asked "Who?" They were going to see the "Dream Team" play an exhibition game.
3. FAI Cup Final 2010, battle of Rovers, great ticketing scheme, great crowd, great atmosphere, good game.

For the national team it's easy to remember when you'd to pay to reserve seats for bundles of matches, though there was a caveat, you missed one match, you lost your seat - didn't matter that I was doing exams the day of the Latvia game. Sickened me and for years I didn't bother going to home Irish games.

I don't really buy that the Irish are alone as event junkies, more that (as noted by an esteemed poster) we're 20,000 hard core fans, they carry the bandwaggon and are committed to Team Ireland - and a fair percentage to their local clubs (LOI, Junior or Kids). Same as in any country.

By comparison our own LOI does well to many countries in terms of % population attending games, both domestic league and international.

DannyInvincible

09/09/2015, 10:51 AM

but they are willing to set these views to one side when the bigger matches come to town? I don't buy that for one second.

Crowds are fickle. The bigger matches will draw a crowd for the "spectacle", no matter what the FAI are or aren't doing. Games against smaller teams won't have the same pull for people and disillusionment with or disconnection from how the FAI and how they are running Irish football certainly cannot help. People will just feel unbothered about going out of their way to fork out a lot of money or show loyalty to an association to whom they not only feel absolutely no sense of duty, but also for whom they harbour actual aversion. People in the past might have felt a sort-of national obligation out of connection and it might have been enough of an impetus to bring them to the smaller fixtures, but that appears not to be the case now. There's no real sense of "we're all in this together" when it comes to the relationship between the FAI and many followers and supporters of Irish football. I'm not saying it's the only factor, but the FAI's crooked image certainly cannot help. If people didn't feel they were being ripped off and knew their money was going to a good place, perhaps it would be a motivator for some.

Siberian

09/09/2015, 10:59 AM

Crowds are fickle. The bigger matches will draw a crowd for the "spectacle", no matter what the FAI are or aren't doing. Games against smaller teams won't have the same pull for people and disillusionment with or disconnection from how the FAI and how they are running Irish football certainly cannot help. People will just feel unbothered about going out of their way to fork out a lot of money or show loyalty to an association to whom they not only feel absolutely no sense of duty, but also for whom they harbour actual aversion. People in the past might have felt a sort-of national obligation out of connection and it might have been enough of an impetus to bring them to the smaller fixtures, but that appears not to be the case now. There's no real sense of "we're all in this together" when it comes to the relationship between the FAI and many followers and supporters of Irish football. I'm not saying it's the only factor, but the FAI's crooked image certainly cannot help. If people didn't feel they were being ripped off and knew their money was going to a good place, perhaps it would be a motivator for some.

I think the point has already been well made but I believe there is no connection whatsoever between last Monday's attendance and people's perception of the FAI.

Olé Olé

09/09/2015, 11:39 AM

Kevin Kilbane on OTB last night was quite critical of the diamond. He reckons it doesn't suit us because we don't have enough width in midfield and our width is provided by our full-backs who have to cross from so deep that the crosses are more diagonal balls. He reckons we need to get McGeady in the team for the Germany match and have Hoolahan on the other flank to cut into the hole. Kilbane asserts that the only way we'll score goals is from crosses- that was the crux of his argument.

I like the diamond in midfield. We've had a problem, particularly under Trap, whereby we were overrun in the middle by teams playing with 3. The big argument for Hoolahan's inclusion was to improve our ball retention. Obviously the opposition this month will be very different to next but I think the domination in the middle against Georgia suggests we should keep the diamond for the Germany match.

McClean and Hendrick created an opportunity and a goal against Georgia from positions which weren't all that wide. Furthermore, if we have Long and Walters up front against Germany then we'll be more capable of stretching them at the back. We must bear in mind that the midfield against Scotland when Walters and Long last played together was McGeady and McClean on the wings with Hendrick and Gibson in the middle. We were overrun in midfield and I think that partnership should be given a second opportunity with Wes in support, as well as Hendrick, McCarthy and AN Other (I'd have O'Kane in there but that's unlikely now, MON may prefer Quinn and there's also the prospect of Arter and Gibson being available).

In conclusion, injuries permitting, we can give Germany a game with:
Given (I'd have Westwood)
Coleman Clark O'Shea Brady
McCarthy
Hendrick O'Kane/Quinn/Gibson/Arter
Hoolahan
Long Walters

For the record, from what I could tell, if Kilbane's suggestion were taken into account, we'd line out something as follows:
Given
Coleman Clark O'Shea Brady
McGeady McCarthy Hendrick Hoolahan
Walters Long