Republic of Ireland V Gibraltar(A) 4th Sept & Georgia(H) 7th Sept 2015 - Euro 2016 Q

[tricky_colour]

You're partial to a bit of sausage tricky?

Chipolatas. :)

[SkStu]

I thought Brady, Clark and O'Shea all did well at the back. In fact, I love what Brady is bringing to the team from LB. I thought Christie, lovely goal aside, was very sloppy in possession especially in the first half but got better in the 2nd.

In midfield, I felt that Whelan and McCarthy were pedestrian. Hoolohan was wasteful. Walters was excellent and I think Hendricks is a premiership act in the making if he can nail down regular club football and play consistently for 90. I thought he was great today. McGeady was an embarrassment when he came on and not sure if Quinn touched the ball.

Robbie was Robbie. Goal poacher supreme. But give me Long as a starter next week v Georgia. Lovely movement for the header he scored with.

Overall, it was difficult to watch. Long balls the order of the day. We will struggle to beat Georgia (though I think we'll nick it) and I don't see us taking anything from Germany or Poland.

[brine3]

The media narrative with Robbie Keane is doing my head in. He's 35, he's completely shot and he only scores against **** teams nowadays, with tap ins and penalties. He's finished. Since he moved to LA Galaxy he's only scored one goal against a team that isn't cannon fodder: against Sweden in Dublin. And he's gone seriously downhill since then again.

Shane Long comes on and scores a thumping header and doesn't get any credit. He also saved us a point against Poland.

The problem with our team is that we aren't looking forward and building for the future. It's all yesterday's men. Robbie Keane the hero. Shay back in goal again. These lads should feel lucky to be on the bench.

Iceland play as a team with a plan. They have hardly any Premier League players. But they have a system and a belief that they can play together as a team. And they are top of their group and have taken six points off Holland. We have 15 times their population and we never took six points off a top team in qualifying.

[Charlie Darwin]

What media narrative?

[Crosby87]

So things are good you're saying, Brine?

[Spudulika]

Disappointed with "Wes" last night, apart from tumbling in the area he showed why he's a liability, but that doesn't matter as he's soup de jour. Walters was a stand out, Keane did well. Like how Brady is growing into the team and Glenn Whelan did well with one lovely crossfield ball. Good result against a weak side, roll on a Georgian side who played their best game and are now there for the taking.

[Colbert Report]

turgid stuff made worse by a poor quality stream... was watching GERvPOL at the same time on the telly - bad news is Germany looked fantastic, worse news is Poland were pretty great too.

Do you not get Sportnet World? It was on live here in Alberta.

[Deckydee]

Goals here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWZ5sZ2_grw

[Olé Olé]

Is Brady quickly playing himself into left back for the rest of his career? He's been doing well there for Norwich and that last ditch tackle by him in the second half when Gibraltar were almost clean through was immense.

I think he's one of the best technical players we've produced in recent times so I'd love to see him on the wing. But there was a point last year where I thought he would reach a ceiling in terms of how good a left back he could become. I think that ceiling has been pushed higher. Could he become a better left back than winger?

[backstothewall]

Is Brady quickly playing himself into left back for the rest of his career? He's been doing well there for Norwich and that last ditch tackle by him in the second half when Gibraltar were almost clean through was immense.

I think he's one of the best technical players we've produced in recent times so I'd love to see him on the wing. But there was a point last year where I thought he would reach a ceiling in terms of how good a left back he could become. I think that ceiling has been pushed higher. Could he become a better left back than winger?

I remember thinking something similar about Gareth Bale when he was making the opposite switch. Lets hope for similar results

[brine3]

What media narrative?

That we need to play him, even thought he is a passenger, because he gets us important goals.

These are the goals that Robbie Keane scored for Ireland since signing for LA Galaxy:

Gibraltar (2) [1x pen]
Gibraltar (3) [1x pen]
Kazakhstan (1) [1x pen]
Sweden (1)
Faroe Islands (3)
Kazakhstan (1) [1x pen]
Estonia (2) [1x pen]

That's one goal of consequence, against Sweden. And it was two years ago, and now he has gone even more downhill.

Long has already been more meaningful than Robbie Keane in this campaign with his goal against Poland, which saved us a point and kept us in the group. All of Robbie's goals in this campaign have come against Gibraltar, who we would have beaten anyway.

[DannyInvincible]

I thought Christie, lovely goal aside, was very sloppy in possession especially in the first half but got better in the 2nd.

He does have a bit of a habit of over-dribbling into opponents/dead-ends and was caught out badly on one occasion especially, when the Irish defence was outnumbered by Gibraltarians racing forward after having stolen the ball from Christie. It could have proven costly if we'd been playing against a more clinical side with an ability to punish such slackness. Overall, I thought he did well though.

Big fan of what Brady brings too.

I had been thinking something looked slightly different or more striking when the team came out and realised it was the return of the traditional white shorts. Hope it stays that way; I'm not a fan of the all-green get-up. Good to see O'Neill back to his old touchline-hopping, tracksuit-wearing self as well!

[pineapple stu]

That we need to play him, even thought he is a passenger, because he gets us important goals.

These are the goals that Robbie Keane scored for Ireland since signing for LA Galaxy:

Gibraltar (2) [1x pen]
Gibraltar (3) [1x pen]
Kazakhstan (1) [1x pen]
Sweden (1)
Faroe Islands (3)
Kazakhstan (1) [1x pen]
Estonia (2) [1x pen]

That's one goal of consequence, against Sweden. And it was two years ago, and now he has gone even more downhill.

Long has already been more meaningful than Robbie Keane in this campaign with his goal against Poland, which saved us a point and kept us in the group. All of Robbie's goals in this campaign have come against Gibraltar, who we would have beaten anyway.

That's still one goal more than Long has scored in his entire international career. And most of those goals have come in friendlies. And he had a bad miss before scoring last night, which unfortunately it typical of Long.

[Stuttgart88]

2 goals away to Estonia in a play-off and a last minute equaliser (earned by being fouled as he was about to score in open play, and immediately preceding Doyle's late winner) in Kazakhstan were of no consequence?


As they say now, there'll always be haters.

[DannyInvincible]

That we need to play him, even thought he is a passenger, because he gets us important goals.

I'm not sure there is a single media narrative or orthodoxy. If anything, I find many in the Irish media don't pay Robbie the respect he deserves, despite his world-class record. I'd like to see Long given more opportunities myself (and I'd love even more if he took advantage of his opportunities), but Robbie's place in the starting line-up has frequently been the source of questions in the media for a few years now.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd describe last night as a professional performance, no more but no less either. I'd stil like at least on central midfielder to just jump out of his comfort zone and make an impact, though they were each tidy enough last night.

Clark makes himself noticed at set pieces and will sneak a goal soon. He also makes himself noticed at least once a game in his own box too though.

RTE saying Monday will be the defining game of O'Neill's tenure. I agree.

[pineapple stu]

I'd describe last night as a professional performance, no more but no less either.
Yep. I thought things just weren't quite coming off for Hoolahan at times. On another day, a couple of his passes would have been a foot to the left or right and Keane/Walters would have been through on goal. So it goes sometimes.

But 4-0, we hit the bar, had a goal ruled out, had a penalty call turned down and, ultimately, got three comfortable points against a Gibraltar team who weren't the complete shambles they were in Dublin. Happy with that. Move on.

Edit - wait - thought McGeady was awful when he came on. The scuffed shots were appalling.

[Olé Olé]

I'd describe last night as a professional performance, no more but no less either. I'd stil like at least on central midfielder to just jump out of his comfort zone and make an impact, though they were each tidy enough last night.

Clark makes himself noticed at set pieces and will sneak a goal soon. He also makes himself noticed at least once a game in his own box too though.

RTE saying Monday will be the defining game of O'Neill's tenure. I agree.

I think Clark is a good player and, you're right, he's a nuisance at set pieces which is great because our delivery from them is brilliant (thanks to Brady).

I hope the start against Gibraltar was a show of faith from O'Neill and now he's first choice to partner O'Shea. I do like Wilson and he hasn't done a pile wrong for us there but Clark is a better player and has a bright future there for us.

One thing I noticed about Clark last night is that he has gotten much physically stronger than he previously was. He needed to do that to become a regular at centre half, as opposed to left back. The size of Okore and Vlaar meant he probably needed to do that at Villa anyway.

[brine3]

That's still one goal more than Long has scored in his entire international career. And most of those goals have come in friendlies. And he had a bad miss before scoring last night, which unfortunately it typical of Long.

It's becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Robbie gets to start all the matches and plays 70-80 minutes, Long comes on for 10-20 minutes.

And then Long gets told he doesn't score as many goals.

It's starting to get tiring.

The fact is that Long has contributed more to this campaign than Robbie despite having much less minutes of play. Look at it this way: Robbie had 90 minutes to score against Poland and didn't. Long was given only seven minutes and he got us the equaliser which has kept us in this group.

Give Long 160 minutes against Gibraltar + plus penalty duty and I guarantee you he will get as many goals as Robbie did. And it will build his confidence.

[brine3]

2 goals away to Estonia in a play-off and a last minute equaliser (earned by being fouled as he was about to score in open play, and immediately preceding Doyle's late winner) in Kazakhstan were of no consequence?


As they say now, there'll always be haters.

It was a long time ago. Estonia was four years ago (and we were two up at that stage and Estonia were down to 10 and then 9 men). Kazakhstan three years ago. What has Robbie done lately?

Nobody should be in the team based on scoring a goal against Kazakhstan three years ago. If that's the bar we are setting, then Doyle should be starting every match.

Don't get me wrong, Robbie Keane has been a great player for Ireland, but we are flogging a dead horse at this stage. It's typical of Irish football really... we are constantly clinging to the glories of the past. Look at how we still think we can qualify for tournaments by "putting em under pressure" even though football has moved on.

[pineapple stu]

Give Long 160 minutes against Gibraltar + plus penalty duty and I guarantee you he will get as many goals as Robbie did. And it will build his confidence.
No he wouldn't. For starters, Long has never (well, bar one season) been the out and out goalscorer Keane is. He's only once managed more than ten league goals in a season, and that was in the second flight. Keane has done it 14 times. Long is a different forward, but for the minnows, you put in Keane and he delivers.

Long has had lots of sub appearances, granted, but when he starts, he misses at least one glaring chance for every one he scores.

His goal against Poland was arguably quite fluky too; weak shot and a big deflection. Who else has he scored against competitively? Of his 12 goals, at least seven were in friendlies.


Look at how we still think we can qualify for tournaments by "putting em under pressure" even though football has moved on
I think this shows you either (a) haven't a clue what you're talking about, (b) are just trolling or (c) both.

Because I don't know where you could actually conclude that people think that.

[brine3]

The managers in charge of our team seem to think that way.

[pineapple stu]

So you're saying we play the same style of football now as under Charlton?

Right so.

[brine3]

No he wouldn't. For starters, Long has never (well, bar one season) been the out and out goalscorer Keane is. He's only once managed more than ten league goals in a season, and that was in the second flight. Keane has done it 14 times. Long is a different forward, but for the minnows, you put in Keane and he delivers.

Long has had lots of sub appearances, granted, but when he starts, he misses at least one glaring chance for every one he scores.

Long only started once in this campaign.

Minutes played in each match:

LONG - KEANE
14 - 76
0 - 63
0 - 63
68 - 12
7 - 90
10 - 17
19 - 71

Total minutes/goals:

Keane 392 / 5 (Ratio of 1 goal per 78 minutes)
Long 118 / 2 (Ratio of 1 goal per 59 minutes)

It's also worth bearing in mind that Robbie Keane has scored zero goals in 258 minutes of football against teams that are not Gibraltar. If Long did that, he'd be getting a right bollocking.

Then you have to consider the other things Long brings to the table: Pace, power and aerial ability. Robbie Keane has none of these things any mroe. We sacrifice a lot of presence up front to accomodate Robbie Keane.

Robbie has been a legend for Ireland. I emphasise has. Sometimes I get the feeling that managers are picking the 35 year old Robbie Keane and expecting the 25 year old Robbie Keane.

[brine3]

So you're saying we play the same style of football now as under Charlton?

Right so.

Not quite, but MON's stuff isn't exactly revolutionary.

[geysir]

Basically we have only one player with midfield technical ability and if we play him up front then there's nobody to get on the ball in our half.

Similar with Dundalk and Towell, when he's moved up behind the striker, there's a technical deficiency further back in midfield, except the other night when Towell had the energy to do it all his own and get up and down the pitch like a yoyo.

Unless McCarthy can find his personality I'd prefer if Wes's starting position is in front of our back 4.

[Charlie Darwin]

That we need to play him, even thought he is a passenger, because he gets us important goals.
That's one media narrative. Another one is that he's a passenger and we can't afford to carry him. I'd say the latter was far more popular until he was dropped and the alternatives didn't do anything.

[Crosby87]

What do you all think the starting lineup will be vs Georgia?

[Stuttgart88]

It was a long time ago. Estonia was four years ago (and we were two up at that stage and Estonia were down to 10 and then 9 men). Kazakhstan three years ago. What has Robbie done lately?

Nobody should be in the team based on scoring a goal against Kazakhstan three years ago. If that's the bar we are setting, then Doyle should be starting every match.

Don't get me wrong, Robbie Keane has been a great player for Ireland, but we are flogging a dead horse at this stage. It's typical of Irish football really... we are constantly clinging to the glories of the past. Look at how we still think we can qualify for tournaments by "putting em under pressure" even though football has moved on.look, you said his goals in those games were of no consequence. I called you on it.

Still, I'd say even at 35 he is still our best finisher and while he shouldn't be an automatic starter O'Neill was right to pick him yesterday and I think he is in with a good shout of being picked again on Monday, and deservedly so. Long has strong attributes too, as do Doyle and Walters. Walters did well last night I think.

I don't think it's a media narrative about Keane, it's just a fair call I think.

The goals per minutes stats are silly though as is the claim that someone is saying Keane is being picked because he scored against Kazakhstan 3 years ago and I think there is fair acceptance that hoofball isn't going to bring any success.

[geysir]

If I was the Georgian manager I'd say, press them high, press the attempts to play the ball out from the back and see how they struggle to cope.

[DannyInvincible]

Look at it this way: Robbie had 90 minutes to score against Poland and didn't. Long was given only seven minutes and he got us the equaliser which has kept us in this group.

Anyone can cherry-pick fixtures. How many did Long score when he started against Scotland? Zero.

Long just isn't prolific and hasn't the same pedigree in front of goal as Robbie has. As a result, he clearly hasn't yet won O'Neill's confidence (judging by recent comments too). There's a debate there, but I don't think O'Neill favouring of Robbie is quite scandalous or anything. O'Neill showed he was prepared to give Long a chance/start (in a big game at Celtic Park), but Long didn't really impress enough to permanently imprint his name on the starting team-sheet.

[brine3]

Anyone can cherry-pick fixtures. How many did Long score when he started against Scotland? Zero.

Did you even see the post were I showed that Long's goal per minute ratio in this campaign is much higher than Robbies?

[Stuttgart88]

Which is a stupid statistic to introduce. Both players have their strengths and weaknesses and they should be the decisive factors on any given day. Long should have played more in this campaign, especially at home against the Scots. No statistic in the world will convince me otherwise.

[SkStu]

Long should be our default starter. He is the "future" (though he's no spring chicken). Even if he's not a prolific scorer he brings a lot to the team and by virtue of his pace, power and aerial ability he disrupts defences and creates chances for the team. He can also scores goals. Robbie looks impotent against the better teams in fairness. Longs time is now.

[DeLorean]

RTE saying Monday will be the defining game of O'Neill's tenure. I agree.

At the risk of asking a silly question, but can you elaborate on that a bit? Obviously if we drop points it could very well be a defining game, but otherwise it's just a fairly standard qualification game where three points are required and very much expected. I would have definitely seen other games as being more defining, I wouldn't have gave the statement a second thought if it was made before the Scotland home game, for example.

[geysir]

It's a defining game in O'Neill's tenure, no question, it's anything but a standard qualification game, it's got pressure because there are no fallbacks.
Dropping points means we are out,
winning it means we are still in the hunt for 3rd place.
As well as the type of performance we should put in to win it.


All assuming the Scots don't beat Germany.

[DeLorean]

I understand the importance of the game. There's a difference between 'a' defining game and 'the' defining game though. It's crucial but having no fall back isn't entirely true, although obviously it will make things very difficult if we drop points. I just think in terms of defining games I'd have identified the games against our direct rivals for second and third place. There's no getting away from the fact that it's vital we win though, but it will only be one of a number of failures if we don't. I wouldn't say O'Neill's ability to oversee a home win over Georgia will define much really in the context of his overall tenure to date. In the context of enforcing the momentum shift in the group it's clearly massive though.

[geysir]

I understand the importance of the game. There's a difference between 'a' defining game and 'the' defining game though. It's crucial but having no fall back isn't entirely true, although obviously it will make things very difficult if we drop points. I just think in terms of defining games I'd have identified the games against our direct rivals for second and third place. There's no getting away from the fact that it's vital we win though, but it will only be one of a number of failures if we don't. I wouldn't say O'Neill's ability to oversee a home win over Georgia will define much really in the context of his overall tenure to date. In the context of enforcing the momentum shift in the group it's clearly massive though.
If I was claiming to be speaking the entire truth (as distinct from 99% truth) then wouldn't I sound like POS, complete with ??!!! :(

Nevertheless, should O'Neill drop points to Georgia then he's well and truly fcked as irish manager, if not de jure fcked, then de facto fcked.
Therefore this game will define him.

[Stuttgart88]

Aren't we arguing over semantics? Both Scotland games and Poland were crucial games and I'd say O'Neill was particularly culpable for the Glasgow performance, less so the other two. Now, having "got away with" some poor results we have been handed a reprieve and a chance to push on, by beating a tricky but eminently beatable opponent. Failure to do so will be a very damning indictment of the manager, in my opinion. It'd be hard to have faith in him for the next campaign if we fail to beat Georgia. So in that sense I'd say failure to beat Georgia will "define" his tenure so far as being below par and not worth the money.

I think he'll oversee a win, that said. But this team isn't used to winning tight games so I think there'll be some hairy moments. I'll excuse that, the win is the main thing.

[DeLorean]

The semantics are critical to the discussion though. If RTE had just called it a crucial game you wouldn't have even mentioned it I presume. Dropping points could well define a generally catastrophic campaign should that occur. If it goes according to plan though I don't think it will register too highly in the final analysis, that's all I mean really.

[geysir]

If the game goes according to plan then he will be allowed a lifeline to carry on and possibly hold onto his job.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I think we're kind of coming at this from totally different angles and I'm not even sure we're discussing the same thing. Not to worry, it just caught my attention for some reason when Stutts felt it was worth mentioning.

[outspoken]

Anyone got 3 spare tickets for 25?

[brine3]

Which is a stupid statistic to introduce. Both players have their strengths and weaknesses and they should be the decisive factors on any given day. Long should have played more in this campaign, especially at home against the Scots. No statistic in the world will convince me otherwise.

I don't see why it is a stupid statistic.

Robbie Keane is in the team because he gets goals. We set up our forward line around him. He doesn't offer aerial threat and his pace is gone. He's there for the goals.

He played 258 minutes in this campaign against all the non-Gibraltar teams and got no goals.

He and Shay Given are legends of Irish football. But they should have quit while they were ahead. Like the Duffer and the Honeymonster.

[backstothewall]

What do you all think the starting lineup will be vs Georgia?

I'd think O'Neill will pick

---------------- Given -----------------
Coleman -- O'Shea -- Clark --Brady
McGeady Whelan Hendrick Hoolahan
------------ Walters Long -------------

[Stuttgart88]

I don't see why it is a stupid statistic.

Robbie Keane is in the team because he gets goals. We set up our forward line around him. He doesn't offer aerial threat and his pace is gone. He's there for the goals.

He played 258 minutes in this campaign against all the non-Gibraltar teams and got no goals.

He and Shay Given are legends of Irish football. But they should have quit while they were ahead. Like the Duffer and the Honeymonster.I hate those statistics because if you relied on them you'd think that Long would have scored 8 from the start against Poland and about the same against Gibraltar. Last time we played Georgia Long made a right eejit of himself in front of goal and then Keane showed him how to do it.

Each has his strengths and weaknesses, plain to see. They key is to pick the right people at the right time. I personally think that despite his age Keane looks sharp right now but I also thought he looked finished at home to Poland - but he had been returning from injury. Long has been a bit-part so far this season.

I wouldn't be against Long starting instead of Keane tomorrow at all. He's got to prove he can be our starting forward sometime. He was given a chance on Glasgow and had a poor game I thought, but so did everyone really.

I only got into this debate to take you to task on your "goals of no consequence" claim when some of them very much were of consequence, and also to dismiss the idea that goals per minute prove something. I just don't believe that. Cyrus Christie would start every game if true :)

[DeLorean]

We could go very offensive and play all three of Keane, Long and Walters. Given McGeady's fitness/form and Brady seemingly at home at left back, it might make a bit of sense. I wouldn't mind seeing this...

---------------------------- Gk ---------------------------

Coleman ---- O'Shea ---- Clark ---- Brady

----------- McCarthy ------ Hoolahan -------------

------ Long ------- Hendrick ------- Walters ----

----------------------------- Keane -----------------------


We really shouldn't need two out and out holding midfielders and Hendrick/Hoolahan can take turns of supporting McCarthy, both in terms of defensive work and providing an option for a pass, which Whelan doesn't really offer. Coleman and Brady should be instructed to get plenty of crosses in with Long and Walters getting in at the back post, but we would still retain the potentially productive link between Hoolahan and Keane so we could mix it up and be less predicable.

[Stuttgart88]

That would be offensive - to MON's judgment!

[Crosby87]

I'd like to see if y'all have time...what do you THINK will be the starting lineup and what do you HOPE will be the starting lineup...

[SwanVsDalton]

Think it'll be the same team as Gibraltar except Coleman in for Christie.

I probably wouldn't hope for much different. Only one I'd like to see included would be Long, but I think it's right to start Keane and with it bound to be a cagey, nervous affair, Whelan will be needed to keep things settled and tight in the first 60.

Georgis arn't great, but they're not bad and they have goals in them. I'd resist any attempt to go all-out-attack from the off.