FAI Invites First Division Expressions of Interest

[luiz]

Imagine you are Bohs, Bray, Shelbourne, Drogheda, Wexford or any other of the irish teams fighting every year more for survival than anything else, which is the case of everyone but maybe 4 teams in the top of the table. Imagine we finally got a single tier and, at least in the case of the 4 first teams, you had no relegation to fear.

In that scenario, you would still need to cut costs wherever you can. Since competing with both Rovers, Dundalk and St Pats for the european spots is not realistic, you could mount the cheapest squad possible, maybe with 25 amateurs, as there is no change if you finish 5th or 18th.

Can anyone seriously imagine any improvement in attendances, income, quality of football, in that scenario? And this before even a ball was kicked, nevermind, say, after the 10th round where the top 4-5 would be already decided. It's said that Finn Harps, Cobh and Wexford would benefit of an one-off game against with Shamrock Rovers with an attendance of thousands, but how many would really turn up to watch a match that would be basically a friendly? How many would come back after their home team of amateurs was mauled by one of the 4 semi-professional teams left in the country? How long before even these 4 teams deteriorate in a league with no competition and descend further from the level of nowadays where the irish champions couldn't beat a team from damn Lithuania, a poor country with the population of Dublin where everybody watches basketball or ice hockey and no one gives a damn about football?

We hear a lot that there is no solution, but how come even the country mentioned above can maintain a healthy pyramid without a club folding every 10 minutes? To me, and after two years there with a big interest in the irish football, both sides of the border, and watching 7 matches from different clubs every month, I can say that no other league in the world is abandoned by the national federation to the extent this one is. If you look into World Cup squads, only impoverished countries from black Africa reach the point of sending 23 players that don't play in the local championship of which a big number not even played professional football there. Ireland had the unique situation in the First World (and in the whole world comparable only to the french colonies like Algeria and Morocco) of that the diaspora is so huge that they didn't even to worry about mounting a strong national league to have a decent national team. In that case, the federation in its laziness overlooked the league as much as they could.

Solutions? Well, let's look at similar cases, albeit Ireland is in kind of an extreme position. The excuse of football not being the most popular sport by a mile as it is everywhere else, for me, is not enough. Football here in Sweden, where I live now, is surely behind Ice Hockey, while Handball, Floorball and Bandy (the later two weird things that only exist here). Clubs complain that costs are too high, why are they? It can't be the wages, irish players are already almost paid in peanuts. The only area I can think where costs can be reduced is travelling, as Ireland is sparsely populated and longer travels are needed than in other places with similar population.

What would I do if I was the president of FAI? First halving my wage and all the other useless bureaucrats. Second would be actively promoting the league with the national team matches, giving a free ticket to a LoI match with every Ireland ticket, more advertising, one Bohs X Rovers per year in Aviva, trying everything they didn't bother with for a long time. Actively seeking new teams, rather than the lazy "expressions of interest", actively going after FC Carlow, Tralee, Monaghan, Home Farm, and asking why they don't want to join the league and how this could change. I don't know what the requirements are, but if they are barring clubs from joining they are certainly too high. If for some reason a club can only afford to play in a stadium with 50 seats, but can pay their bills and comply with the safety requirements let them do it. Once we get at least 10 teams in the First Division, a split in "conferences" could be done, like the american sports, where teams would play more often the opponents nearby with playoffs to even out differences between the groups, and the dreaded trip from Ballyboffey to Cobh would only happen once a year. And finally, trying as hard as possible to get an all-Ireland league, the only definitive solution to me. Actually would kill two birds with one stone, as their state doesn't seem to be exactly the best nowadays.

I don't mean to sound preachy and I accept criticism on whatever I said, but since everyone is giving their two cents, here is my suggestions.

[Charlie Darwin]

In that scenario, you would still need to cut costs wherever you can. Since competing with both Rovers, Dundalk and St Pats for the european spots is not realistic, you could mount the cheapest squad possible, maybe with 25 amateurs, as there is no change if you finish 5th or 18th.
People say this, but I've never actually heard a coherent argument about why it would be true. Clubs in this country always put out the best team they can afford - and frequently they put out a more expensive team than they can afford - but I've never known a team to purposely try and do it on the cheap. Ultimately, teams in this league rely upon fans putting their hands in their pockets more than teams in other leagues, and even the most loyal fans will get ****ed off if you try and short-change them.

[luiz]

People say this, but I've never actually heard a coherent argument about why it would be true. Clubs in this country always put out the best team they can afford - and frequently they put out a more expensive team than they can afford - but I've never known a team to purposely try and do it on the cheap. Ultimately, teams in this league rely upon fans putting their hands in their pockets more than teams in other leagues, and even the most loyal fans will get ****ed off if you try and short-change them.

Well, Premier Division teams do it because otherwise they will get relegated, and First Division teams do it because competing against the top teams in their league is still within their reach with some luck (see Mervue United last season). Since there is no way that a bottom First Division can ever compete with Sligo Rovers, myself I wouldn't waste money trying to spend more money than I have to finish 16th instead of 18th.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well, Premier Division teams do it because otherwise they will get relegated, and First Division teams do it because competing against the top teams in their league is still within their reach with some luck (see Mervue United last season). Since there is no way that a bottom First Division can ever compete with Sligo Rovers, myself I wouldn't waste money trying to spend more money than I have to finish 16th instead of 18th.
I don't think that's true, to be honest. There's no reason why, for instance, Bohs this season would bring in Jason Byrne when he's not going to be the difference between them finishing 12th and 10th, but he might be the difference between them finishing 9th or 8th. They're spending the extra money because he's a legend and he'll excite the fans. They're not in danger of relegation and they wouldn't be without him either, but they brought him in because he's box office.

[Briuk]

I personally agree on with Luiz.

I also think the fact that the teams play against each other more than the typical two games, it's not good for the league, it makes too big differences, so I would go for something like the Southamerican system, with two tournaments making, relegations and promotions in the summer too, so every year there would be two champions. League would be more attractive, and there would be more movement with teams promoting and relegating constantly.

Another idea I've been thinking on is to try to do something with Northern Ireland. That would be the best for the football in the Island. I guess noone wants to lose the european spots, so maybe something like half season with Northern Ireland and half season each country by their own wouldn't be that bad.

But to join the countries would make possible to have a premier league of 12 teams, for example, then a second division with two groups, north and south and after some time, we could create a third league with North, center and south division attracting some junior clubs as the travel costs would be less, and the requirements too.

I also want to point that I think the creation of "B" squads is very good for the development of football here, this teams don't have the pressure of perform and are lining up young guys who wouldn't have a chance to play anywhere, well supported economically, I think it's just going to be good and they can give more to the league that many people thinks.

[avvenalaf]

Tell you what, lads, but Athlone Town are making the best case for playing in the First Division I've seen in a long time.

[Macy]

Imagine you are Bohs, Bray, Shelbourne, Drogheda, Wexford or any other of the irish teams fighting every year more for survival than anything else, which is the case of everyone but maybe 4 teams in the top of the table. Imagine we finally got a single tier and, at least in the case of the 4 first teams, you had no relegation to fear.
As I said earlier, if this is true, why not extend out promotion and relegation? It should be 3 (or at least 2+1) down from the premier, then there'd be a lot more clubs in the mix for relegation/ playoff, for longer in the season. Similarly in the first having top two of eligible clubs up automatically (as it was for years) plus a playoff (even 3rd v 4th and winner against 10th in the premier) would mean more teams in the mix, for longer.

Hiding behind the teams having nothing to play for argument is all well and good, but then the premier division clubs and FAI have tried to make the premier as much as a closed shop as possible. Even compared to what was in place before they started messing between 10 and 12 team premiers, summer football etc.

[Dodge]

I'd definitely be in favour of 2+1 to be relegated rather than 1+1 as now

[adamd164]

It definitely makes sense to have more relegation places... it could mix things up a bit with more changes between the divisions.

[Charlie Darwin]

There are seven teams in the First Division eligible for promotion and people would make it so at least two and possible three could be promoted in any given season? Madness.

[nigel-harps1954]

There are seven teams in the First Division eligible for promotion and people would make it so at least two and possible three could be promoted in any given season? Madness.

You're just afraid of Shamrock Rovers getting into a relegation battle under such circumstances.

[Charlie Darwin]

You're just afraid of Shamrock Rovers getting into a relegation battle under such circumstances.
No problem. If that happens we'll just buy Bray.

[nigel-harps1954]

No problem. If that happens we'll just buy Bray.

The town or the club?

[Charlie Darwin]

The town or the club?
Depends on how much clandestine support we get from our best mates at the FAI.

[Nesta99]

Or Wicklow County Council!

[luiz]

I would totally favour one more promotion spot in the First Division as long as the number of clubs was bigger than what it is now. What Charlie says is totally true.

[Macy]

So we need two divisions to give teams something to play for, but then we also want to give the bare minimum number of things to play for? OK then....

Maybe we'd have more than 7 teams eligible if there was more chance of getting out of the first. History shows that the playoff is usually won by the premier team, so having it 2+1 will usually mean 2 down 2 up anyway.

[Trainee]

Bottom 2 in premier should be relegated. Top of first should be promoted & have a playoff for 2nd promotion place with 2nd,3rd,4th & 5th in first.

[legendz]

I thought the play-off system used for a season or two between the 2nd last in the premier and 2nd, 3rd & 4th first division was a good option.
Are more clubs likely to enter a B team in the first division in the next few years?
On a Meath team for the LoI, it's not an area that has expressed interest before. The underage league is the place to start as Mayo and Kerry have in the past.

[Dodge]

Bottom 2 in premier should be relegated. Top of first should be promoted & have a playoff for 2nd promotion place with 2nd,3rd,4th & 5th in first.

Ha, a full season to exclude 2 teams from the play offs...

[sadloserkid]

The underage league is the place to start as Mayo and Kerry have in the past.

Worked out spectacularly well for them both alright.

[legendz]

Worked out spectacularly well for them both alright.
Neither got financially burned for testing the water. Perfect examples that underage is the place to start.
The A Championship then has to be factored in. It was to be the pathway for clubs to join the LoI. Kerry are back to where they were over 10 years ago. There'll probably be a team entered into underage league in the next year or so. Work's being carried out on facilities at Mounthawk.

[BonnieShels]

Ha, a full season to exclude 2 teams from the play offs...

Very CFL!

[Longfordian]

All is not well in Waterford financially..again, it seems. Don't know the specifics just a few cryptic tweets doing the rounds.

Edit: Rumoured to be releasing all Dublin and Cork based players

[ATFC-1887]

At least the first division will have an old friend back in it again next year. Cant wait :(

[Longfordian]

At least the first division will have an old friend back in it again next year. Cant wait :(

We'll probably be waiting for ye if that's any consolation

[ATFC-1887]

We'll probably be waiting for ye if that's any consolation

It does help ease the pain. But not much

[Jofspring]

Rumoured on twitter today that 6 Waterford players released and the rest offered reduced wages.

[cornflakes]

Just seen on twitter that they've released Gavin Kavanagh, Peter White, Conor Meade, Kynan Rocks and Shane Murray. Big blow for them

[Charlie Darwin]

Just seen on twitter that they've released Gavin Kavanagh, Peter White, Conor Meade, Kynan Rocks and Shane Murray. Big blow for them
And none of those players can play again until July? That is pathetic.

[NeverFeltBetter]

http://www.waterford-united.ie/waterford-united-club-statement-040514/

This is starting to look like Galway United's last season.

[Charlie Darwin]

I seriously think the best thing the FAI could do for the league at this point is hire a retired business studies teacher for eight hours a week and send him around the boards of each club to teach them how to structure a basic household budget.

[WoodquayBoy]

Seems to be an annual thing with Waterford, only it's come earlier than usual this time. Feel sorry for them

[legendz]

I seriously think the best thing the FAI could do for the league at this point is hire a retired business studies teacher for eight hours a week and send him around the boards of each club to teach them how to structure a basic household budget.
Probably not a bad idea. Clubs who joined the 4 year third tier never had those financial problems.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Was that whole medical expenses thing ever sorted out for good?

[Lim till i die]

http://www.waterford-united.ie/waterford-united-club-statement-040514/

This is starting to look like Galway United's last season.

They must be really hard up when you consider that according to a link on the same page as that statement they had to get Finn Harps to tog out for them up in Galway friday night. :bulgy:

[Lim till i die]

Seriously though what are we, two months into the season?! And the Waterford board realise the economies a bit grim?!

Having said that, while its easy to criticise (and fun too) its a sad indictment of irish football when fielding a team in the worst first division of all time isnt sustainable.

Back of a matchbox calculations being generous id say the likes of Waterford United are earning 10k a month.

You wouldnt run a decent schoolboy setup off it.

[White Horse]

The first division is a basket case. The FAI seem intent on closing their eyes to the problem. Having said that, financial problems can happen very easily in either division. All it takes is a slightly ambitious budget and a lower gates than expected.

[legendz]

The first division should have merged with the A championship a few years back. Established clubs should have been given an opportunity to join an expanded premier. It's still something which can be given consideration. Promote the top 4, invite clubs to join a regionalised second tier with less stringent fudgy criteria and allow Premier clubs the option to enter a B team.

[sulywaterfordfc]

Was that whole medical expenses thing ever sorted out for good?


If that's referring to a former player I think it was shown that the insurance were to cover he's medical expenses not the club.

[trevy]

It is hard to understand why the club are in this position so early in the season and a lot of fans are fed up with the board going on the internet comments. It's not easy for them running a club in the current economic climate but surely the budget agreed and approved in the off season by the licensing board should have been right for the season. Our first 3 home crowds were above the normal amount for last season too.

[disgruntled]

It is hard to understand why the club are in this position so early in the season and a lot of fans are fed up with the board going on the internet comments. It's not easy for them running a club in the current economic climate but surely the budget agreed and approved in the off season by the licensing board should have been right for the season. Our first 3 home crowds were above the normal amount for last season too.

I'm genuinely sorry to see Waterford in this position again.

I have little time for the way the licencing system is run in this country.
Any accountant worth his salt would have looked through Waterford's budget & seen that it was unsustainable. Due diligence is not being carried out by the licencing board as this type of situation is happening far to often.
The other thing that comes to mind & one which should seriously worry all Waterford fans is that the Waterford board put forward to the licencing authority a budget for the season & are running the club from a second different budget.
If this is the case then Waterford fans need to get rid of the board totally as they obviously haven't learned anything from the previous well documented incidents.

What all Waterford people need to ask themselves is " Do they really want League of Ireland football in the city & if so what are they prepared to do about it" ?
Perhaps they need to go down the road of a fans owned club. If so there is plenty of advice available from people who have gone in this direction.

Only the Waterford fans themselves can answer that question.

[gufcfan]

Due diligence is not being carried out by the licencing board as this type of situation is happening far to often.

100%. What occurred at Galway United could only have happened with the FAI wilfully ignoring what was going on.

[disgruntled]

100%. What occurred at Galway United could only have happened with the FAI wilfully ignoring what was going on.

Its the old League of Ireland attitudes all over again.
Make it up as you go along :rolleyes:

[Macy]

I seriously think the best thing the FAI could do for the league at this point is hire a retired business studies teacher for eight hours a week and send him around the boards of each club to teach them how to structure a basic household budget.
The FAI should introduce a licencing system, where clubs have to submit a budget for approval before receiving a licence to compete…


The first division is a basket case. The FAI seem intent on closing their eyes to the problem.
Not just the FAI – look at some of the posts in this thread and see that plenty of fans will reject stuff that might help clubs in the first, potentially revitalise the 1st and the teams in it with more promotion and relegation etc. Lots are happy to run with it as is, once they’re in the premier and don’t have to worry about it.


Its the old League of Ireland attitudes all over again.
Make it up as you go along :rolleyes:
FAI are in charge of the league and licencing. A few posters from the FAI finances thread that think Delaney is doing a great job should pay a bit more attention!

[Dodge]

Lots are happy to run with it as is, once they’re in the premier and don’t have to worry about it.


I don't think that's fair tbh. Just because someone is a fan of a Premier Division club doens't mean they can't have opinions on how the league as a whole is run

[Macy]

I don't think that's fair tbh. Just because someone is a fan of a Premier Division club doens't mean they can't have opinions on how the league as a whole is run
I hadn't realised I had to be fair!

I really think a big part of the problem with the 1st is that it's so hard to get out of - clubs/ fans/ committee's get disheartened with another slog with no prospect of promotion (pretty much you have to win it to go up, as premier team usually wins the play off). I've no idea what's going on in Waterford, and I don't think it's an acceptable response, but part of the issue could be the realisation even at this stage they ain't going up this year so they might as well cut costs than chase bucks to support the playing budget. It's the exact consequence that people who argue against a single division league because of no relegation use, only it's a lack of promotion opportunities that causes the same effect.

[Dodge]

It's the exact consequence that people who argue against a single division league because of no relegation use, only it's a lack of promotion opportunities that causes the same effect.

But if every club thought that way in one division league then we'd have 8+ clubs looking to cut costs as they'd have nothing to play for?

I'm happy for more promotion/relegation places but think that clubs can't just argue about economic difficulties 2 months into the season. That's a cop out

[Macy]

But if every club thought that way in one division league then we'd have 8+ clubs looking to cut costs as they'd have nothing to play for?

I'm happy for more promotion/relegation places but think that clubs can't just argue about economic difficulties 2 months into the season. That's a cop out
I'd prefer more promotion and relegation places to a single division, but when that was suggested there was plenty arguing against, reduce down the places, saying it's too many clubs in the play off mix in the 1st etc. I agree it's a cop out, and it isn't right (and I don't even know if that is the mindset or reasoning) and clearly most clubs don't go about their business in such a way, but I do think perma premier division clubs don't realise just how bad it is in the first! It does show, yet again, what a farce licencing is - will the FAI ever get that bloody right?

[legendz]

Having gone to Limerick games when they were in the first division, from my experience of it, I wouldn't agree that promotion from the first is an issue. The division was great a few years back when there were some strong teams in it and a gripping promotion push. With the premier re-expanding to 12, it's gotten stronger and a weaker first division was left behind.
At the same time though Macy might have a point. Two up and two down could see more virbrancy of new teams going between the divisions. The Premier was 10 a few years back. Now it's 12, is there any harm in the teams 11th and 12th dropping down with the first division winner promoted and however many is agreeable entering a play-off? All clubs are stakeholders in the game as Delaney put's it. Will the push have to come from clubs for change?