Ireland V Sweden(A) 22 March & Austria(H) - 26 March 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifiers [Archive] - Page 18

Closed Account 2

28/03/2013, 3:43 PM

As I say if there were credible alternatives I'd be more inclinded to join the "Trap out" brigade but I just dont see any that are crucially both better at getting results and realistically likely to take the role. Maybe at the end of the season there will be more candidates (as well as people talking about O'Neill you might find someone like Bilic at Lokomotiv Moscow or even Remi Garde at Lyonnais, Schaff has been mentioned too, possibly O'Driscoll but I dont know what sort of contract he is on) and more likely at the end of the qualification campaign or even post World Cup there will be a lot of internationally experienced managers available (someone like Zaccaroni from Japan).

For all the critisim about playing Sammon I can see the logic in deploying a target man especially vs the Austrians who looked all at sea in the air. We'd done it before going way back to the likes of Quinn, to more recent ones like Gary Doherty (who ended one campaign as our top scorer) and even Alan Lee. It just happens that Sammon seems to be a fairly limited player, but what alternatives are there, perhaps Doyle but he isnt really an out and out target man and is on a very barren run, or perhaps Jon Walters but again he'd done very well for us in other roles (e.g. out wide), Cox had been tried in a more advanced role and it hadn't worked. As I say, when Austria were so weak in the air it made sense to use height as a weapon it's just for whatever reason we don't have a quality true target man.

People talk about us having great central midfielders like Wes Hoolahan and James McCarthey. Well the first two are very good in an attacking sense and McCarthy plays a great short passing game and keeps possesion well - but in there are no hasslers, no one who will really get at the opposition and stifle them. One of McCarthy and Hoolahan (or both if you only play with one striker) would be great if balanced along side a good energetic defensive player. Obviously a long time ago we had the likes of Townsend and Roy Keane, but even not that long ago we had Graham Kavanagh - you could never call him world class but he's just the sort of defensive player we need to go with the more attacking central midfielders we have, maybe Hendrik will be that sort of player in the future but he doesnt have the experience to be thrown into the fray yet. I don't think Whelan is the answer as his legs have gone but I can see some of the logic behind it.

BonnieShels

28/03/2013, 4:00 PM

There is no logic to using Whelan when we have Green. I've not gotten over the horror show against Russia in Lansdowne where Green got the blame for Whelan's gash performance.

Whelan proved again the other night that he's not up to the role we require him for. Green proved that he's that man against Sweden.

5 in the middle is the answer?

Closed Account 2

28/03/2013, 4:21 PM

the bear

28/03/2013, 4:29 PM

brine3

28/03/2013, 4:31 PM

Maybe having more in the middle but that would limit us a bit going forward. Even if we had say Hoolahan, McCarthy and Gibson who are probably our best on form midfielders playing regularly at a high level there isn't really a pure defensive midfielder there (and to compound the issue McPhail, who has been very good in a strong Cardiff side for a number of years, isnt that defensive either he's a bit like McCarthy) I suppose that having 3 bodies in midfield might give us more of a defensive edge (as opposed to having two in midfield) but with just one striker (and all of Keane, Doyle, Cox, Walters tend to drop back) I think we could end up with little cutting edge upfront.

I don't think there is an easy solution and you can see why Whelan and Andrews are near the squad. Whelan is defensivly minded to a degree, is decent at set pieces but seems to have no stamina at all. Andrews is sort of the opposite, energetic willing to run and close down but not with great footballing intelligence it's almost like one has the mind and not the body and the other has the body but not the mind. There is the chance of playing someone like Clarke (or another center back) as a defensive midfielder, I could see it might be worth a shot with Clarke since he can play the ball and does drive forward and his errors would be less catastrophic in midfield than as a center back. But again its like smashing a square peg into a round hole, and with Dunne out and St. Ledger's injuries we need all our center backs playing at center back and cant really experiment with them.

Nobody plays with a pure "defensive midfielder" in football any more. The Makelele position is dead.

Gibson and McCarthy are two controlling midfielders who would offer ample protection for the back four and ball retention as well, with Hoolahan in front of them linking to the front.

Everybody can see that this is how we should be playing, but Trap has being playing exactly the same tactics for the last 40 years, and he's not going to change.

**** it, all these players are in blazing form and will be at the peak of their careers come the summer of 2014. It's enormously frustrating.

Now we're looking at Euro 2016, when Shane Long and Darron Gibson will both be 29, and Wes Hoolahan will be 34.

DeLorean

28/03/2013, 4:44 PM

And Mr Gibson will still be an egocentric maniac we can do without.

geysir

28/03/2013, 4:46 PM

Why is it such an issue for us to change from a 442 to 451 in midstream without having an AGM to hear all sides of a debate on the matter before deciding.
Even the most basic teams in Europe have no such issue with using what they have and flip from one to other, depending on the needs of the game making substitutions if required.
Playing a target man like Sammon limits flexibility during a game, if you want to go 451 to shore up midfield, he should be first to leave the pitch.
Trap put on Green a midfielder, but he didn't shore up midfield, instead he shored up a liability - Sammon.
This was a major (major major...) f..k up. I can take the odd glaring f...k up by a manager and put it down to the ways of life and learning.
I just cannot accept such a f..k up from one of the most experienced managers on the planet, a supposed expert in caution and definitely not when it follows f..k up after f..k up.

Closed Account 2

28/03/2013, 4:48 PM

Nobody plays with a pure "defensive midfielder" in football any more. The Makelele position is dead.

Gibson and McCarthy are two controlling midfielders who would offer ample protection for the back four and ball retention as well, with Hoolahan in front of them linking to the front.

I disagree. Some teams don't notably Spain and Barcelona. But if, heaven forbid, people look beyond Iberia, other teams very much do play with defensive midfielders (or at least midfielders who have a primarly defensive role). At the last World Cup De Jong marshalled the midfield for the Dutch. Bayern Munich have had players like Tymoschuk and Van Bommel. Inter had Cambiasso when the won the CL, in the final they played Zanetti next to him. Look at the Euros Russia (and Zenit) had Zyrianov and now Denisov, Poland had Dudka, Denmark had players like Christian Pouslen and Wim Kvist, Croatia had Vukojevic and Dujmović, England had Parker, France had M'Villa and Alou Diarra and also played Debuchy as a defensive midfielder. I don't think McCarthy is this type of player, he is not naturally defensive in the way most of those are.

back of the net

28/03/2013, 4:49 PM

IMO First 20-25 mins were a horror show where Austria out passed us and out played us and fully deserved their lead. We got momentum in the remaining 20mins of that half and played some good stuff and were the better side for that period. We seemed to come out of the blocks and the beginning of the second half and were ok for the first 10 mins of it but then gradually Austria started to turn the screw and you could sense the nerves around the stadium of what they might do if we continued to play so poorly and post 70 mins till the final whistle due to shocking tactics, manager instructions ,nerves and god knows whatever else we were lucky just to concede just 1 goal in that period. Absolutely furious that we allowed them to score in injury time, but alas our setup and defensive approach in trying to close the game out with so much time left on the clock was potentially always going to be our downfall and in the 92nd minute thats what it proved to be.

Fair play to Sammon , 100 percent commitment he gave, but this was a competitive game that came to soon for him. The game passed him by and IMO his effectiveness in his role was minimal.

Austria deserved the draw at least IMO

@ The bear - i picked up on the whelan moment along with many others.

Somebody needs to inform James Mclean that he is meant get the ball more than 2 foot off the ground when taking a corner....so wasteful

I was thinking back over the years on near misses or performances that p*ssed me off, but the Austria game has seriously annoyed me.

I credit Trap and his fantastic away games record and long may it continue...but our poor home form and ill conceived tactics and player selection and deployment over the last couple of years are killing us and they show no sign of improving.

We are far from out of the running for second place ...IF.... Trap realises his errors...BUT ....dont expect him to acknowledge or rectify them.......and thats gives me huge cause for concern

Semi - rant over ....cheers

Stuttgart88

28/03/2013, 5:28 PM

There was a moment towards the start of the first half against Austria where the ball broke to Whelan in midfield and bounced to knee height directly in front of him. an Irish player was standing unmarked 10 yards from him directly in his line of vision. Rather than passing him the ball Whelan blindly hooked it over his left shoulder up into the air. Did anyone else pick up on this moment? We cannot keep playing this guy.Yes, and you should hyave heard me at the game at the time.

Another thing that annoyed me about the game is that we pressed the ball well at times when they were in possession and it was far more effective than when we just stood off them. I thought the penny had finally dropped but no, back to being happy to mark space again.

OwlsFan

28/03/2013, 5:42 PM

No, but you constantly fail to countenance any change simply because change may be worse than what we have. There are no counterfactuals in life. The clock can never be rewound.

Depends what change you mean. I am quite happy to see change and I believe that different players should be used and some of Trap's selections baffle me but that said, he picks them to suit HIS formation, tactics etc. That's what's he's paid to do. Most thought the selection of Green in Sweden would be a disaster. Time told otherwise. If Sweden scored in the last minute, which they almost did, we would have had the why not bring on Hoolahan 20 minutes earlier debate again etc. Such are the fine margins.

Will come back to the rest later. Have to go home for dinner :)

Stuttgart88

28/03/2013, 5:58 PM

You can eat again?

SwanVsDalton

28/03/2013, 6:38 PM

There is no logic to using Whelan when we have Green. I've not gotten over the horror show against Russia in Lansdowne where Green got the blame for Whelan's gash performance.

Sorry but while Green ended up being a shield for Whelan's being rubbish, his positioning throughout the game was disastrous. Fairer to say they were both dreadful and leave it at that.

Another thing that annoyed me about the game is that we pressed the ball well at times when they were in possession and it was far more effective than when we just stood off them. I thought the penny had finally dropped but no, back to being happy to mark space again.

Combination of tiredness and lack of composure. Our lack of experience on the night was glaring. It's no more than a dodge, but Trap had a point on that one.

For everyone talking about Sammon - didn't get it. He didn't do any more than what Jon Walters offers in terms of aerial ability, was poor with ball at feet and a bit powder puff when getting outmuscled by Austrians.

He also completely chickened out of a 50/50 tackle around halfway with roughly ten minutes to go - call me old fashioned but you wouldn't catch Walters or Doyle doing that, not with minutes left in a must win game. Granted the guy was knackered and worked hard, but it's the least we should expect. If we need a guy to play that role, just get Walters in there.

brine3

28/03/2013, 7:32 PM

I disagree. Some teams don't notably Spain and Barcelona. But if, heaven forbid, people look beyond Iberia, other teams very much do play with defensive midfielders (or at least midfielders who have a primarly defensive role). At the last World Cup De Jong marshalled the midfield for the Dutch. Bayern Munich have had players like Tymoschuk and Van Bommel. Inter had Cambiasso when the won the CL, in the final they played Zanetti next to him. Look at the Euros Russia (and Zenit) had Zyrianov and now Denisov, Poland had Dudka, Denmark had players like Christian Pouslen and Wim Kvist, Croatia had Vukojevic and Dujmović, England had Parker, France had M'Villa and Alou Diarra and also played Debuchy as a defensive midfielder. I don't think McCarthy is this type of player, he is not naturally defensive in the way most of those are.

You play the formation that suits the best players you have. If we don't have a top defensive midfielder then we don't play with one, simple as.

We have three ball playing central midfielders and hard-working wingers. So we should play that way.

Put the round pegs in the round holes.

mark12345

28/03/2013, 10:29 PM

"A bad manager to a complete bum" !! A play off failure, a qualification, 15 unbeaten games away from home. Level with the other 3 teams in our group for the play off spot. The Scots whom you quote would die for such success. We are not in decline like the Scots. We are actually even getting better. You equate playing a different style of football with different players = automatic success. Be careful what you wish for. It mightn't be what you expect but I can assure you that Trap is neither a bad manager nor a bum. He has his faults and irritations but I am thankful for where he has brought us.

Let me rephrase then. He's a bum of a manager. Success of the past are noted and the memory of Paris will never fade. But ever since the man has consistently, ad nauseum, picked the lesser of the options available to him in his squads and teams.

Would you like to explain Glenn Whelan's contribution to the cause to me? Or perhaps John O'Shea's. And what has Paul McShane done? Darren O'Dea too. When the likes of Hoolahan and Joey O'Brien are left out and when McCarthy has been dropped to the bench in favor of a much inferior player, then Trap has an awful lot to answer for. If the truth was told and he had played the right players at the right time on Tuesday night last, we would have won the game. So Trap is a bum of a manager.

Closed Account 2

29/03/2013, 12:40 AM

You play the formation that suits the best players you have. If we don't have a top defensive midfielder then we don't play with one, simple as.

We have three ball playing central midfielders and hard-working wingers. So we should play that way.

Put the round pegs in the round holes.

That seems a bit of an oversimplification, we don't have great center backs given Dunne is injured, St Ledger isnt fully fit, Clark is inexperienced and O'Shea can be absent minded, should we just not play with any center backs too?

I really don't think we can afford to just have primarily attacking or non defensive central midfielders, we would be putting way to much pressure on our defence

SkStu

29/03/2013, 3:01 AM

I have been arguing most of these points about Trap for most of the last 4-5 years (me and Paul). This is fun.

geysir

29/03/2013, 8:45 AM

Depends what change you mean. I am quite happy to see change and I believe that different players should be used and some of Trap's selections baffle me but that said, he picks them to suit HIS formation, tactics etc. That's what's he's paid to do. Most thought the selection of Green in Sweden would be a disaster. Time told otherwise. If Sweden scored in the last minute, which they almost did, we would have had the why not bring on Hoolahan 20 minutes earlier debate again etc. Such are the fine margins.
Will come back to the rest later. Have to go home for dinner :)
Most thought the selection of Green instead of McCarthy was a disaster about to happen in Sweden.
Most thought the late injury to Whelan was a blessing.
And at a guess, most were relatively content with a Green/McCarthy partnership as apposed to any other of the possible combination between Green/McCarthy/Whelan. For the second game in a row, it was evident that the McCarthy/Green was the most functional partnership on show in Trap's formation. Yet Trap tore it asunder to bring back a (fitness doubt) Whelan for the Austria game. Not a game loser on its own but definitely left more space in the middle, in the 2nd half for Austria to exploit and what was also evident (again), McCarthy is less effective with Whelan at his side.

I was content with what was achieved in Sweden, I wasn't going to be critical and focus about the possible changes etc that might have brought a win. All we had to do, imo, was win our home games, the rest would fall into place.

tricky_colour

29/03/2013, 10:12 AM

Green seems to be the hardest worker from what I can see, he may not be the best on the ball
but that is rather immaterial if we can't win the ball.
When he came on against Poland suddenly we were winning the ball in midfield, same goes for the
Sweden match. Remember most people here thought we were going to get slaughtered with Green
on the pitch yet by the end of the games the very same people were saying we should have won it!!

Thus it seems rather bizarre he was dropped. I didn't see that much of the short time he was on v
Austria be he was hardly at fault for the goal.

SkStu

29/03/2013, 2:09 PM

Anyone else notice George Hamilton calling Shane Long "Doyle" in the build up to the Long back heel against the post? Twice! Plonker.

the bear

29/03/2013, 2:14 PM

That seems a bit of an oversimplification, we don't have great center backs given Dunne is injured, St Ledger isnt fully fit, Clark is inexperienced and O'Shea can be absent minded, should we just not play with any center backs too?

I really don't think we can afford to just have primarily attacking or non defensive central midfielders, we would be putting way to much pressure on our defence

The midfield he suggests is a great balance in my opinion. Gibson and Mcarthy would operate as defensive midfielders but would vastly improve our chances of holding onto the ball. With Coleman and Wilson at full back we could start to resemble a decent footballing team.

----------------Forde
Coleman---Dunne---Sledger---Wilson
---------Gibson-----McCarthy
McGeady-----Hoolahan------McClean
----------------Long

Sammon, although hard to dislike the man for his attitude is not a good football player
Keane still has something to offer but can no longer be undropable
Walters is the man to be used when a target man is required
Whelan doesn't deserve to play
Green doesn't deserve to play, Meyler has more potential to fill this role
Keogh needs to go
Realistically Dunne mightn't play again, so reluctantly O'shea will be filling his role

SkStu

29/03/2013, 2:43 PM

I got to watch the game finally last night. I think there are a couple of myths arising from the other night.

1) That Sammon did anything of note. He didn't. He's a shocking player at this level. Wrong selection.
2) That Ireland as some sort of unstoppable machine from the 15th minute to the 50th. We were good but so were Austria. We defended their attacks well and took our chance better than they took theirs. We did truly dominate the first 10 minutes of the second half.

A couple of other points that have already been made...

McCarthy was excellent. He let no one down. But he was leggy towards the end. Not really his fault. He'll be the man to build our team around shortly.
Long was immense. It wasn't long ago (when long wasnt being picked) i was criticized for saying that Long was world class and our future. I think he's proven that now.
We worked so hard in this game. Truly credit to the team and to Trap for installing this. It was great to see. However, it did, inevitably, lead to tired legs and minds (plus it was the second game in 5 days obviously) and so the changes should have been made to recognize this. A big black mark against Trappatoni but that's been debated to death.

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

Stuttgart88

29/03/2013, 3:27 PM

I think Long being immense is another myth!

I thought Long made a few big errors. Early in second half he had a gereat chance to play an unmarked Walters in from a square ball from the right of the box but delayed and hit a poor ball. He also headed the ball at the only place the keeper could have saved it when a downward header was a goal all day long. (I think this was Long, though it was hard to tell). I know it was instinctive but I think that's Long all over - leaves too many chances out there. I thought he lost the rag too, playing like an immature cantakerous twit before he was taken off. If he'd kept his maturity he'd have been left on the pitch I reckon. 6/10 for me. What he did well he did brilliantly (9/10 stuff), but the blots on his copybook are hard to ignore.

Agree totally with (1) and (2) and yes, Trap deserves some credit for the work ethic and yes, not making the changes that were so obviously required is a major black mark against him.

DannyInvincible

29/03/2013, 3:37 PM

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

The Austrian equaliser was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.

Stuttgart88

29/03/2013, 3:40 PM

I have been arguing most of these points about Trap for most of the last 4-5 years (me and Paul). This is fun.yeah, but you were wrong for the first 3 years :)

paul_oshea

29/03/2013, 4:02 PM

we just saw it before the rest of ye stutts ;)

brine3

29/03/2013, 4:13 PM

Green seems to be the hardest worker from what I can see, he may not be the best on the ball but that is rather immaterial if we can't win the ball.

He wins the ball, yes, but the problem is that he then gives it away or kicks it into touch.

So what's the point of winning the ball if you can't keep it.

ArdeeBhoy

29/03/2013, 4:27 PM

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

Your posts have infinitely improved. Sorry if that sounds completely patronizing!

Overall though, a good few analysis posts are obviously contradicting one another, whilst others, more worryingly, display a complete lack of tactical knowledge about how teams do (or should) set up...which does seem odd.

SkStu

29/03/2013, 4:45 PM

we just saw it before the rest of ye stutts ;)

Exactly. :D

Your posts have infinitely improved. Sorry if that sounds completely patronizing!

Overall though, a good few analysis posts are obviously contradicting one another, whilst others, more worryingly, display a complete lack of tactical knowledge about how teams do (or should) set up...which does seem odd.

I don't mind contradiction in analysis. It's the beauty of the game - everyone can have their own interpretation of displays, results, formations, tactics.

BonnieShels

29/03/2013, 6:00 PM

Sorry but while Green ended up being a shield for Whelan's being rubbish, his positioning throughout the game was disastrous. Fairer to say they were both dreadful and leave it at that.

I wanna say more on this but I agree to say they were both dreadful on the night plus I think we are all preoccupied by Austria at present.

That game is really haunting us eh?

paul_oshea

29/03/2013, 9:27 PM

i was very upset after the France game and for a long time.

But I dont remember when I was last this frustrated, disappointed and sad. A huge feeling of regret too, something left behind that leads to not getting something in the future.

I think it was building up for a while tho and now it finally happened with huge consequences.

The round pegs square holes is a good argument. Mccarthy was at this a lot of the time too and that ****ed me off too. Remember harte in central defence against Romania away?ill never forget the way giles tore into that selection. Anyway it seems all managers have these failings unfortunately sometimes they are effective and/or required but most times not.

I reckon the FAI could get me ajd skstu cheap just pay flights for him and moneybags skstu can pay for the rest. :D

SkStu

29/03/2013, 9:50 PM

I'm in. Lets get this done.

back of the net

29/03/2013, 10:19 PM

I wanna say more on this but I agree to say they were both dreadful on the night plus I think we are all preoccupied by Austria at present.

That game is really haunting us eh?

As per POS - the France playoff in Paris upset me for a long long time, but despite the numerous missed chances we had to put the game to bed in that game....but ultimately the pride I felt of the teams fantastic performance that night gave me alot of solace

Conceding to Gilardino's injury equalizer in Croke Park a few years ago against Italy was also a massive downer , as was the cyprus 5-2, san marino 2-1 , etc etc.....but none have infuriated me as much as tuesday nights game and result.