Ireland V Sweden(A) 22 March & Austria(H) - 26 March 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifiers [Archive] - Page 17

Bungle

27/03/2013, 1:46 PM

I'm actually more negative than Brian Kerr today, and that's not usual.

First up, the inclusion of Sammon was a nonsensical disaster. Poor lad, it's not his fault he's not up to the standard required. Trap is making us regret calling for him to go to more matches. He'd never have seen him otherwise. Giles' Herald preview predicted he'd be out of his depth and his inclusion signalled a return to hoofball afteer proper football on Friday - he was 100% right.

Many pundits including Kerr have said Whelan was good. I disagree. He offered nothing over and above the bare minimum a CM should be able to do, and at times he looked panicky on the ball and struggled with the basics. He was one paced too, but in fairness took some decent frees / corners. I'm usually the last one here defending Whelan but I thought he looked very limited. As soon as Trap stumbles on a more effective midfield, he rips it all up again. Why?

Kerr said we played well in parts. Very very few parts in my view, and generaly isolated bits of individual play rather than cohesive team play. The game plan was awful. We were only ahead at half time because of superior attrition. Attrition is not playing well, even if it works.

We might have scored a 3rd from another set piece but after their keeper made a good save that was it as far as I recall. From then we sat back and allowed them to outnumber us in key areas while Trap just looked on. I couldn't believe the utterly ineffective Sammon (why play hoofball if your centre-forward loses most of his aerial duels?) stayed on. Cox, Doyle or Hoolahan would all have been better options than leaving Sammon on, and I also couldn't believe Walters moved upfront to stay at 442.

Utterly bizarre and inept management. In fact our approach to the whole game was so devoid of what Giles always refers to as moral courage I'd say it was a cowardly showing from Trap. The players were all game, but the strategy & mindset was a cop out. I'm livid.

Spot on with pretty much everything there. Having said that I do think that Doyler is living off his reputation with us a little bit. His form at the moment is very poor for Wolves. Obviously, he would be 100 times better than Conor, as would Simon Cox, but I think that he isn't deserving of his place in the starting line up, at least on current form.

mypost

27/03/2013, 2:39 PM

I don't want to apportion too much blame on the players for the last goal, but what was Forde doing so far off his line, and whoever should have come on out on Alaba got the deflection that brought it up and under, without this it wouldn't have got over and under Forde. But thats only little details.

That's part of the problem. We got two draws this week against our playoff rivals. The players got all the credit for the first one, and were not held responsible for the second one. Is that right?

I'd have defended Trap up to now. He's done a good job for my money but last night, while not a disastrous performance, showed me he has to go.

The man has left a great legacy in football. His achievements are exceptional. He's done well with us, I'll remember him fondly if he goes. He deserves better than the treatment he got from Tony O'Donoghue who seems to think that he's Jeremy Paxman or someone. It saddens me that such a great football man has to take that rubbish from a non-entity like O'Donoghue. All that said, he seems incapable of making basic decisions correctly and has clearly had a lot of communication issues with this squad and for those reasons, I think his time has come.

The squad do as he asks, so clearly they understand what he wants from them. He has a proven record of getting the job done here over a qualification campaign, and we're still within striking range of second spot now. There are many nations in other groups who would love to be "only" level on points with half the campaign remaining.

Do you want to know who we have beaten in competitive matches at home under the Trap?

Cyprus
Georgia
Andorra
Macedonia
Armenia

We haven't beaten a so-called top side at home in 12 years. We haven't beaten a so-called top side away in 26 years. Does it matter? No. What matters is that we get enough results after 10 games to get a playoff, not who we beat to get there.

Are you saying the Austrian equaliser was undeserved or implying it came as a surprise/out of the blue? Alaba's goal was on the cards for the last 20 minutes. They had 60 per cent of the overall possession. At one point towards the end of the game, a stat-bar popped up to inform us they were enjoying a ten-minute spell of 87 per cent of possession in their favour. We were clearly on the ropes. Throughout the game, they had 11 attempts on goal compared to our 6. And yet we were robbed, just because their goal came late? It doesn't matter when their goal was scored.

Of course it matters. If someone scores with 20 minutes to go, you can retrieve the situation. If they score with 20 seconds remaining, there's not a lot you can do to recover the ground.

We defended deep late on, as most coaches do with narrow leads these days. It didn't work this time, but not every team is going to score 30 yard deflected shots past our defence in injury time. For all their possession stats, that's what it ultimately required, as they couldn't get past us any other way.

Seasoned qualifiers, you mean?... How do we compare?

We know they're seasoned qualifiers. Just like Belgium were before 1988, Hungary were before 1990, Denmark were before 1994, and Holland were before 2002. That didn't stop us getting the measure of them in the campaign we faced them.

Even if we do manage to somehow finish second, we'll have to ensure that we're not the ninth-worst second-placed team of all the nine groups.

I'm not that worried about it at this stage, it will change. We faced similiar 4 years ago, and secured the 8th spot of the 8 qualifiers at the end of the campaign. In any case, we can only affect our own games, what other teams do in other groups is out of our hands.

It wasn't the result we wanted, but this is a 10-12 game slog, not a cup final. There will be highlights and setbacks along the way. After that, we can take stock of how we got on, and where we go from there.

Stuttgart88

27/03/2013, 2:40 PM

I think this is very unfair. We were excellent for most of the first half in my opinion. Controlled aggression but also a variety in our play, direct, down the wings and feeding Long, in particular, in behind. It is the best I have seen us play since Paris. It was more frantic than that night but I believe it's what the occasion demanded, pinning a relatively inexperienced side in their own half and forcing them into errors. Just a shame we couldn't maintain it and, yes, the lack of substitutions and wrong ones when they came had a huge part to play in that.
I thought it was caveman stuff. That the ball eventually found its way to dangerous players like McClean or Long was arrived at in as primitive a manner as even Ireland as ever produced, bar the occasional isolated move. I'm not saying we didn't do some decent stuff in the final third but it was sporadic and what I 'd call "low probability" stuff.

Bungle, like you I think an off-form Doyle still has so much more to offer than Sammon. There was one run he made against Italy last June that was so forceful, athletic and direct it'll stick in my mind for ages. A player doesn't lose those traits even if he's playing badly at his club.

paul_oshea

27/03/2013, 2:47 PM

Another thing about trap last night, he brought on a midfielder and moves walters up top, we win a free in the corner and he instructs players to stay back. Why would he bring on a midfielder, instruct walters to player as another forward if we aren't going to contest the ball up front at all and just wind down the clock, we were never going to go for another goal so why leave 2 up front? It makes no sense. I remember people lambasting kerr when we went 2-0 up for bringing on an extra midfielder, but that was very early in the second half, this was with 10 or so minutes to go...

I think he is arrogant and purposely does these things, in a "I am the boss" autocratic way, i know this sounds a bit reactionary but I just don't understand, surely he knew the right subs and when to make them last night? He cant be that bad a manager?

Stuttgart88

27/03/2013, 2:48 PM

That's part of the problem. We got two draws this week against our playoff rivals. The players got all the credit for the first one, and were not held responsible for the second one. Is that right?
I actually gave Trap credit too for Friday, even if he picked McCarthy by default. The players did everything asked of them last night, but in my opinion two of them shouldn't have started and the game was crying out for substitutions and any amateur could have seen that. I was getting inundated with texts during the second half.

It wasn't the result we wanted, but this is a 10-12 game slog, not a cup final. There will be highlights and setbacks along the way. After that, we can take stock of how we got on, and where we go from there.
True, but it's never the case where we get the pioints in the bag as insurance against a bad result. The Kerr campaign (France, Switzerland, Israel) was a classic example as was Trap's first two campaigns where we benefitted from our direct rival for second falling to pieces. I see this as being more like the Kerr group where we carelessly left points out there and paid the price. While I still think it's possible I'd rather be on 2 points-per-game now rather than hoping to be on 2 points-per-game later.

We can still get 6 points from Sweden & Austria but I think it'll take balls and conviction and I don't see us doing it.

barney

27/03/2013, 2:54 PM

The squad do as he asks, so clearly they understand what he wants from them. He has a proven record of getting the job done here over a qualification campaign, and we're still within striking range of second spot now. There are many nations in other groups who would love to be "only" level on points with half the campaign remaining.

When I talk communication issues, I'm not talking in regards to tactics and stuff because nobody outside the camp knows if there is an issue in that respect. I'm more talking about the amount of players who have seemingly had issues with the management team in general. Yes some players are nancy boys who don't like criticism or things not going their way and yes the media blow a lot of this up but when you have as many players having problems with the management team as we have, then you have to look at what the common denominator is and it's Trap. It's worrying and I do believe that when he goes, some people will come out and say that they didn't enjoy playing under him and that the set-up was shambolic.

He does have a record of doing it over a campaign and his away record, for example, is excellent. But looking at last night, the manager was directly responsible for us dropping two points by making bizarre decisions or refusing to make common sense decisions. That's a sign for me that his time is up. We aren't badly positioned in the group but I think that with another manager, we'd have gotten two more points last night and I fear that it will happen again over the course of the rest of the qualifiers. For that reason, I'd like to see the Trap go with some dignity, having done what in my opinion is a good job, and someone else come in who won't make those mistakes.

SwanVsDalton

27/03/2013, 2:57 PM

The lack of leadership was shown up last night in the last 20'. If Robbie or Duff were on the pitch would they have allowed us to go back to 4-4-2? Would they have done a Paris and managed the game better?

No but that was what happened because Sammon got tired. I think he was supposed to be operating ala Keane and as he did in the first half - deep (on the half way line) pressuring their deeper midfielders as well as centre backs.

Understandably run into the ground, he was begging to be subbed off. Doyle was the ideal man to play in that role, bothering Austrian players clearly uncomfortable with being pressured on the ball, as well as someone with the experience and ability to hold a ball up when it came his way in wide channels. By far the worst single decision of the night for me, even ahead of staying 442.

With two strikers pressing high up we could have got away with keeping four in the middle and more experience would have seen us through too. But it shouldn't be that way - a manager should seize the initiative and change things to secure a result instead of crossing fingers because he doesn't like to disrupt things lest the changes don't work.

I went off Kerr for that reason and it's the reason I'm off Trap. Someone else said a lack of moral courage - and I'd agree 100 per cent.

paul_oshea

27/03/2013, 3:07 PM

SwanVsDalton

27/03/2013, 3:18 PM

It doesn't matter if they(the strikers) are pressing high up, if they are out of position and the midfielders are ahead of them. Which is what the case was last night for the last 10 minutes or so, they were pressing high up near the centre circle but the ball and opposition were around halfway between the circle and the 18 yard box. What it then requires is another midfielder lying deep, blocking route 1 and trying to break up and track the triangle passes in behind, which didn't happen.

I don't disagree with that in general, but the bit in bold I'm not convinced about. The Austrians were ineffectual most of the game at getting the ball back to front, particularly because a bit of pressure from our attackers and midfielders lessened their time (they were also fairly poor on the ball at times).

In the last ten however the Austrians were often able to play the ball across the back four with ease, with only Walters closing in and the other players lying deep. Sammon, at this point, was cruelly off the pace and miles behind the play although doggedly trying to close in. When they had the ball in their own half our shape was ok, bit ragged, but two banks of four was vaguely there. Problem was our tired players couldn't step up quick enough, particularly from the front.

However when they easily bypassed our one-up-front (as it pretty much was at that point) plenty of space opened up for them to unpick our midfield.

I don't mind whether Sammon was withdrawn for, say, Brady and Green chucked in for a 451. Think that would have been as effective. I'm just saying Trap had options. If he was so compelled to play 442 and wanted two up front because they had been effective in maintaining a high pressing line then I say ok - but there's no excuse for asking a guy totally off his feet to do that job.

I think with Doyle on the pitch he could've dropped in to that 'Keane in Stockholm' role (as Sammon did in the first half) and pressed not only centre halves but also covered back into the top point of a three man midfield triangle.

As you say I'd have went 451 too, particularly because we had zero composure at that point and the beloved 'two banks of four' were out the window. But even a simple substitution like that could've made the difference on the night, because even with us looking ragged and ill-composed, Austria wern't doing all that much. Almost any action would have been better than inaction.

tricky_colour

27/03/2013, 3:27 PM

Now as annoying as most of the in-game comments from you were :p, the above hits the nail on the head.
To me it looked like Walters was expecting the fulltime whistle (crowd were whistling at the time), but there was still 2 mins left, he must have known that. He was waving arms as if to say - blow it up ref. Why the hell wasn't he busting an albeit already knackered gut to try get back into a defensive position.
A huge amount of the equaliser comes down to lads being so knackered from the style of play - chasing and pressing - that they just couldn't keep the concentration levels up high enough. Whelan was flat on his feet for the last 20 mins. If that Austria move had of been earlier in the game Alaba wouldn't have had the time he got. Tired body = tired mind unfortunately. The 3 subs available should have been used before the 80th minute. sickened

Actually I think he was holding his arms up in exasperation as to why McCarthy had gone racing out of position s wondering who was going to plug the big hole left, yes we could have done with more fresh legs on, I mean trap could have made a sub just to give them a minutes rest.
But that's history now, I was just annoyed I had lost my stream and was desperately searching for confirmation of our 'win' and could not believe it when we conceded in the last minute.

I am not really criticising Walters here, quite the opposite here, he is actually showing some sort of leadership
in say "what the feck is going on"

paul_oshea

27/03/2013, 3:30 PM

mypost

27/03/2013, 3:41 PM

I actually gave Trap credit too for Friday, even if he picked McCarthy by default. The players did everything asked of them last night, but in my opinion two of them shouldn't have started and the game was crying out for substitutions and any amateur could have seen that. I was getting inundated with texts during the second half.

He made changes. He brought on a defensive midfielder with 10 minutes to go. Any coach in that situation would have done the same. Whether the replacement or who he replaced is good enough is a different discussion, but even the most inept of players can do a job effectively for 10 minutes when called upon.

We can still get 6 points from Sweden & Austria but I think it'll take balls and conviction and I don't see us doing it.

I don't think we'll get 6 points, we may not even need them. The way this group is going, 4 may be enough. Last time, 2 points from the Russia-Slovakia and Italy-Bulgaria double headers proved to be enough for us.

When I talk communication issues, I'm not talking in regards to tactics and stuff because nobody outside the camp knows if there is an issue in that respect. I'm more talking about the amount of players who have seemingly had issues with the management team in general. Yes some players are nancy boys who don't like criticism or things not going their way and yes the media blow a lot of this up but when you have as many players having problems with the management team as we have, then you have to look at what the common denominator is and it's Trap. It's worrying and I do believe that when he goes, some people will come out and say that they didn't enjoy playing under him and that the set-up was shambolic.

He does have a record of doing it over a campaign and his away record, for example, is excellent. But looking at last night, the manager was directly responsible for us dropping two points by making bizarre decisions or refusing to make common sense decisions. That's a sign for me that his time is up. We aren't badly positioned in the group but I think that with another manager, we'd have gotten two more points last night and I fear that it will happen again over the course of the rest of the qualifiers. For that reason, I'd like to see the Trap go with some dignity, having done what in my opinion is a good job, and someone else come in who won't make those mistakes.

We have defended deep under previous coaches, and conceded goals in injury time. It's not something unique to Trap and it happens in football from time to time. The equaliser was an outstanding strike from a top player, but it needed a deflection to go in. If it didn't, we would have got the three points. Three wouldn't have put us through, and the point doesn't knock us out. The objective remains the same.

I'm sure there will be some who will say what they want about the Trap era, but you can't keep 40 players happy all the time. We have had player/coach fallouts for decades. Whether they respect him or hate him, they're professionals with a job to do for this country and to do it to the best of their ability, regardless what they think of him.

SwanVsDalton

27/03/2013, 3:42 PM

I'd disagree and say for the last ten minutes we had no shape. Our two strikers were lost up front nowhere near the game of play.

That was probably down to tired minds and tired bodies. The whole formation was disjointed. That's also why I said we had to bring on a deep lying midfielder and keep walters tight, or change doyle for sammon or both. Long was the only one capable of still being able to run and harry.

We're probably closer to agreement than we seem. I think the problem was that when the Austrians had the ball in their half, we had less time to set up because they had a far easier time of it playing short passes around our tired forwards, and playing in midfielders who had the run of the middle third since our deep attacker and two midfielders had become totally disconnected.

Because of this I'm convinced Doyle on for Sammon would have been boost in the last ten, even if we did stay 442, because he'd would have been able to harry both centre backs and midfielders (dropping a bit deeper) and hold the ball up better than anyone else going.

Still, absolutely, skin that cat with a 451 but my point was doing almost anything made more sense than doing nothing.

Just thinking more - Glenn Whelan should've took more responsibility in regaining our shape. I was quite pleased when he demanded to take a corner following a poor McClean effort, and it set up our second. Good leadership I thought. But when your most vocal player in telling people to step out is James McClean, there's a problem. McCarthy should learn something from it too but Whelan's the senior guy - regardless of quality he's knows the system and knew what was required. Our lack of composure was, again, shocking throughout.

shakermaker1982

27/03/2013, 3:44 PM

Stuttgart88

27/03/2013, 3:48 PM

He made changes. He brought on a defensive midfielder with 10 minutes to go. Any coach in that situation would have done the same. Whether the replacement or who he replaced is good enough is a different discussion, but even the most inept of players can do a job effectively for 10 minutes when called upon.
He effectively swapped Green for Walters and Walters for Long. Net net he changed very little and of any one of 5 possible chnanges this one made no sense. We needed to keep someone like Walters where he was and if Green was to come on (fine by me) it should have been to track Alaba, or to help plug the gap in the middle. I think very few managers would have played out the substitution in the manner Trap did.

Charlie Darwin

27/03/2013, 3:57 PM

O'Shea's role as captain and organiser of the defence hasn't been mentioned yet. He needed to push the back 4 out last night but retreated. The Trap should be barking orders from the side to push up but O'Shea has enough experience to know what was needed. Christ even at the level I play at if we're holding on to a lead but under the cosh I try & get the defence to push up even a few metres. It makes such a difference and is a no brainer really. McClean tried to bark at them to be fair to the lad. He could see what was happening along with 30,000 punters.
Do you mean organiser of the midfield? The defence were organised fine all game, it was midfield that was pushing further back. I don't know how much O'Shea was barking at them but it's hard for the midfield to push up when we've got two strikers standing up the pitch, which reinforces the importance of having a strong decision-maker (preferably a captain) in midfield in the modern game.

paul_oshea

27/03/2013, 4:03 PM

CD, the midfield were too far forward for the goal!! Thats why Mccarthy was completely out of position! They had 2 guys yards off-side, if Oshea pushed the back 4 up it wouldn't have mattered if any of their players slipped in behind them or tried to break through they had 2 lads offside who would have been interfering with play, but had O'shea pushed up a bit then the shot would not have been on. Alaba was in yards of space and 3 lads a few yards in front of him - our defence - if they had pushed forward like they did in the first half we would have blocked the shot(which they did in the first half on a few occasions also).

Anyway thats small change easy say afterwards- but we should still try and eradicate these mistakes - its the big things like the subs that make a far bigger and more important difference.

OwlsFan

27/03/2013, 5:03 PM

We did well to fight back from the catastrophic error by Clarke. Even better to take the lead. No credit for manager there?

Then another error in the last minute when their best player is left unmarked outside our box. Green had funneled back and had his man covered. Whelan came over to give him support (probably not necessary) leaving the Austrian unmarked but where was McCarthy or was he Whelan's man? Then a deflection for the shot. Gut wrenching, stunned etc etc

Much talk about the subs. Long or Sammon ? - much of a muchness at that stage. Long had been losing the head a bit and had clattered in to the back of an Austrian giving himself a booking. Sammon did ok I think during the game and much improved over the Poland performance and certainly along with Long worked really hard to prevent the Austrians playing out from the back.

Hoolihan as sub apparently would have been the panacea for all our ills. Who knows. Even at that stage McCarthy was giving the ball away very cheaply. In fact the Austrians were eventually to score from an aimless kick to the corner by McCarthy. Frankly, I think we could have brought on Messi and we would still have been pinned back. It was nerves rather than any preconceived plan "to invite them on" in the words of Giles. I knew it would be a long 20 minutes when McCarthy miss hit a pass to O'Shea who then failed to control it and knocked it out. Jitters all round.

Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron all lose and all out of contention. England not far off our own position. 3 points were vital. We blew it through 2 mistakes on the field and ARGUABLY with the wrong substitution as I don't have a crystal ball. Losing Clarke just as it was backs to the wall time didn't help.

Truth is we were leading 2-1 in to the 92nd minute and their best player for left unmarked outside our box. Manager, fate, player mistake ?

p.s. Trap was so bewildered at the end that he started his interview in German !! (invites comments about being bewildered). He should talk in Italian and let Manuela translate.

pp.s Two wins against Sweden and Austria? Unlikely but not impossible. I also wouldn't rule out a point in Germany.

Charlie Darwin

27/03/2013, 5:25 PM

Trap was speaking in German it seems because he was speaking with the Austrian coaching staff in German immediately before the interview. It can be hard switching between languages, especially when you don't have much.

Stuttgart88

27/03/2013, 6:06 PM

We did well to fight back from the catastrophic error by Clarke. Even better to take the lead. No credit for manager there?

Hoolihan as sub apparently would have been the panacea for all our ills. Who knows. Even at that stage McCarthy was giving the ball away very cheaply. In fact the Austrians were eventually to score from an aimless kick to the corner by McCarthy. Frankly, I think we could have brought on Messi and we would still have been pinned back. It was nerves rather than any preconceived plan "to invite them on" in the words of Giles. I knew it would be a long 20 minutes when McCarthy miss hit a pass to O'Shea who then failed to control it and knocked it out. Jitters all round.

Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron all lose and all out of contention. England not far off our own position. 3 points were vital. We blew it through 2 mistakes on the field and ARGUABLY with the wrong substitution as I don't have a crystal ball. Losing Clarke just as it was backs to the wall time didn't help.

Truth is we were leading 2-1 in to the 92nd minute and their best player for left unmarked outside our box. Manager, fate, player mistake ?

p.s. Trap was so bewildered at the end that he started his interview in German !! (invites comments about being bewildered). He should talk in Italian and let Manuela translate.

pp.s Two wins against Sweden and Austria? Unlikely but not impossible. I also wouldn't rule out a point in Germany.Nobody has a crystal ball but we're not thick, we can make a decently informed judgment.

Truth is we left ourself vulnerable to the second error by going about the game the way we did and with the players he chose. The game plan, selection, the substitutions all suited them more than they suited us. Look at Tricky's video clip on the James McCarthy thread. All our highlights came from a hoof or a corner.

Sammon was not much of a muchness with anything. If he'd been sent off it'd have had the same effect. I hate knocking our players, especially a likeable honest guy like Sammon living the dream. He showed no sign against Poland that he had anything to offer at this level and proved it again last night. Not his fault in the slightest. The constant theme of Trap's tenure is an inability to stay ahead and to always concede a man advantage in midfield. The goal may have been avoidable but they had any number of half chances before that. A proper chance was inevitable.

It's not just Trap I suppose: Israel away, Croatia away, Macedonia away, Slovakia away (under Stan) and then this one. Italy home wasn't quite the same as we had only just scored ourselves. How costly those goals all were, bar Slovakia? When will we ever learn?

geysir

27/03/2013, 6:58 PM

mark12345

27/03/2013, 9:54 PM

We've been dropping deep to protect a slender lead long before Trap came, it's not a Trap invented issue. Regardless, even if Austria hadn't equalised, my main issue would stand, the way the whole game was played, a rigid lowest common denominator approach which has not altered from day one. And all in complete disregard to the evidence that we can do much better.
The most bizarre thing is that even when Trap stumbles upon a team selection that can play the rigid approach better, he scuttles it. Nor can he patch it up when it's crumbling before his eyes. For the most part, our game yesterday was a football horror show, further scarred by a tissue of eccentric managerial decisions, made before and during the game.

Agree completely with your post Geysir. Trap to me should have gone after the Euros because he promised us a different approach and has not delivered. No one seems to raise that point, but if I remember rightly he said last July that he was going to have the Ireland team play football on the ground, rather than the Route One approach (in his own version of English).

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians. His team selectionss are so rank awful that you can have no sympathy for the man anymore. I will be the first to say that we are a limited team, but we always have been and the thing about limited teams (and Scotland and Wales fall into this category as well) is that it's absolutely imperative that we put out our best players. Trap for too long has put out our worst players.

Just thought I'd end with this - a related topic which I came across on Sky website. It's a couple of comments from Mark Wotte, the director of football performance for the Scottish FA. How true it is and how completely pertinent it is to the Irish situation.

Speaking after Scotland's loss to Serbia, Wotte said:

"But we have two options: we either wallow in self-pity, or we address the reasons behind that decline. We have to change our philosophy and our approach to elite talent identification and development.

"To borrow the wisdom of Einstein: insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

"The reality is that in the time since Scotland opened France 98 against Brazil, many nations across the continent have evolved at a rate superior to our own, both physically and technically.

"We have little alternative but to accept that inconvenient truth and do something about it.

"It will take time but crucially, the process is under way. Twelve years ago, Belgium did likewise and now have a generation of top-class players excelling in the top leagues in the world.

"Spain, once derided as perennial underachievers, have taken world football to a new level of performance. Recently, we also provided a mid-term report for our seven regional performance schools, where 120 of the country's most talented players enjoy a football education as part of the curriculum.

"More time dedicated to individual skills development will only make you a better player. The first-year intake are 12-years-old. In eight years' time, they should be established players at their clubs and the best should form part of the national team."

Crosby87

27/03/2013, 10:05 PM

Great posts today, some of them newspaper worthy dare i say.

Mark that was grand one thing, That quote is oft attributed to Einstein but he said nothing of the sort. He was really vague about mental illness. Not much interested in it at all really.

Just finished a great book about him, interesting trivia, he had a child with his first wife, before they were married, but they gave it up for adoption. Its not known if she survived WW2 or where she went even, but he may have more direct descendants than we know about. There are some theories out there though about possible descendants.... (and i dont mean POSH).

Charlie Darwin

27/03/2013, 10:07 PM

Great posts today, some of them newspaper worthy dare i say.

Mark that was grand one thing, That quote is oft attributed to Einstein but he said nothing of the sort. He was really vague about mental illness. Not much interested in it at all really.
Correct, but for some reason "to paraphrase some guy off the internet" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Crosby87

27/03/2013, 10:09 PM

Youve been on point all day chuck, i must say.
:D

Crosby87

27/03/2013, 10:25 PM

In case anyone hasn't seen the post match presser and still wants to, without scrolling around:
http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/giovanni-trapattoni-post-austria-match-conference-29158549.html

OwlsFan

28/03/2013, 12:29 PM

Nobody has a crystal ball but we're not thick, we can make a decently informed judgment. Truth is we left ourself vulnerable to the second error by going about the game the way we did and with the players he chose. The game plan, selection, the substitutions all suited them more than they suited us. Look at Tricky's video clip on the James McCarthy thread. All our highlights came from a hoof or a corner.

Sammon was not much of a muchness with anything. If he'd been sent off it'd have had the same effect. I hate knocking our players, especially a likeable honest guy like Sammon living the dream. He showed no sign against Poland that he had anything to offer at this level and proved it again last night. Not his fault in the slightest. The constant theme of Trap's tenure is an inability to stay ahead and to always concede a man advantage in midfield. The goal may have been avoidable but they had any number of half chances before that. A proper chance was inevitable.

It's not just Trap I suppose: Israel away, Croatia away, Macedonia away, Slovakia away (under Stan) and then this one. Italy home wasn't quite the same as we had only just scored ourselves. How costly those goals all were, bar Slovakia? When will we ever learn?

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden. Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes. You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed. It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game. There was never going to be much between us and Austria and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with. I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position. Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

Agree completely with your post Geysir. Trap to me should have gone after the Euros because he promised us a different approach and has not delivered. No one seems to raise that point, but if I remember rightly he said last July that he was going to have the Ireland team play football on the ground, rather than the Route One approach (in his own version of English).

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians. His team selectionss are so rank awful that you can have no sympathy for the man anymore. I will be the first to say that we are a limited team, but we always have been and the thing about limited teams (and Scotland and Wales fall into this category as well) is that it's absolutely imperative that we put out our best players. Trap for too long has put out our worst players.

Just thought I'd end with this - a related topic which I came across on Sky website. It's a couple of comments from Mark Wotte, the director of football performance for the Scottish FA. How true it is and how completely pertinent it is to the Irish situation.

Speaking after Scotland's loss to Serbia, Wotte said:

"But we have two options: we either wallow in self-pity, or we address the reasons behind that decline. We have to change our philosophy and our approach to elite talent identification and development.

"To borrow the wisdom of Einstein: insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

"The reality is that in the time since Scotland opened France 98 against Brazil, many nations across the continent have evolved at a rate superior to our own, both physically and technically.

"We have little alternative but to accept that inconvenient truth and do something about it.

"It will take time but crucially, the process is under way. Twelve years ago, Belgium did likewise and now have a generation of top-class players excelling in the top leagues in the world.

"Spain, once derided as perennial underachievers, have taken world football to a new level of performance. Recently, we also provided a mid-term report for our seven regional performance schools, where 120 of the country's most talented players enjoy a football education as part of the curriculum.

"More time dedicated to individual skills development will only make you a better player. The first-year intake are 12-years-old. In eight years' time, they should be established players at their clubs and the best should form part of the national team

"A bad manager to a complete bum" !! A play off failure, a qualification, 15 unbeaten games away from home. Level with the other 3 teams in our group for the play off spot. The Scots whom you quote would die for such success. We are not in decline like the Scots. We are actually even getting better. You equate playing a different style of football with different players = automatic success. Be careful what you wish for. It mightn't be what you expect but I can assure you that Trap is neither a bad manager nor a bum. He has his faults and irritations but I am thankful for where he has brought us.

BonnieShels

28/03/2013, 12:49 PM

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden.

It wasn't hindsight though. Stutts, myself and many others on here who know the game and don't fall into the hyperbolic trap after a defeat were no doubt shouting for change in the middle long before the suckerpunch of a 92' goal.

The goal had been coming. It just took longer than it should have.

Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes.

To say that they worked is a misnomer. They functioned on a basic level because the team we were playing were rubbish.

The substitution was pointless because it didn't fix where our major issue was.

You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed.

I can see where Stutts is coming from re Sammon and I would agree to an extent.
Though in this case I think a player like Sammon was ideal in the way he disrupted the Austrians.

The only thing is we have two superior players in Jon Walters and Doyler who could have done that job and added more to our game in the process.

I can't fault Sammon for what he did, but he isn't good enough for Ireland.

It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game.

There's "backs-to-the-wall" and there's "defending a lead".

We were the former. We should have been the latter.

There was never going to be much between us and Austria

Why not? They are where they are in the rankings for a reason. As I've said before, It's all very nice passing the ball around but we are much better than them and for the first 45' it showed in spades.

The embarrassing nature of ceding the impetus for almost the entire second half to an inferior side is what
galls me and others here.

and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with.

Who said we had to go gung-ho for a third. Keeping the ball would have been nice.
They can't score if you have the ball.

I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position.

How can you blame JOSH? That goal was a collective brainfart. I blame Given moreso.

Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

That came after nearly a half-hour of ineptitude. Castigating Trap for that failure, which bugged me no end, and ignoring the other aspects of his inept game management makes no sense.

barney

28/03/2013, 12:49 PM

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians.

That's downright disrespectful and blatantly not true.

You want to argue against Trap, then that's fine but resorting to this sort of empty, false rhetoric is beneath contempt.

BonnieShels

28/03/2013, 12:51 PM

That's downright disrespectful and blatantly not true.

You want to argue against Trap, then that's fine but resorting to this sort of empty, false rhetoric is beneath contempt.

mark12345 is known for this. I ignored OwlsFans comments on the matter simply because it wasn't worth commenting on.

Stuttgart88

28/03/2013, 1:00 PM

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden. Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes. You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed. It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game. There was never going to be much between us and Austria and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with. I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position. Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

No, but you constantly fail to countenance any change simply because change may be worse than what we have. There are no counterfactuals in life. The clock can never be rewound.

Sammon got his head onto a few things, agreed. For the most part he failed to even hold the space he was standing in, getting nudged off the ball far too easily. If Trap wanted a physical front pair he could have gone with Walters and Long, who were both excellent in the second half against Bosnia. Doyle, despite his club form, was a better option - surely? Sammon's presence made us one-dimensional and that rarely cuts it these days.

I don't think Trap's team and tactics worked for 92 minutes. Even if we had won I'd have say we got away with giving auistria every advantage we could. We benefitted from a dumb tackle and a corner. At no point bar maybe that spell between 50 and 60 minutes did I feel we were comfortable or even playing well. That's not what you'd expect from a home team playing a lower ranked team with many ordinary players.

You're right - Hoolahan ain't a defensive player, but he has the moral courage to always look for the ball and uses it well. That would have prevented Austria from monopolising the ball for the last 20-30 minutes. If he did lose possession he'd still have had 4 midfield colleagues to help rectify.

Trap erred from the outset (read Giles' Herald preview and without prejudice :) - he nailed it as did many here) and failed to read what was happening on the pitch. Can you really deny that?

DeLorean

28/03/2013, 1:57 PM

It wasn't hindsight though. Stutts, myself and many others on here who know the game and don't fall into the hyperbolic trap after a defeat were no doubt shouting for change in the middle long before the suckerpunch of a 92' goal.

Do you rate yourself in some kind of foot.ie A-team BS? :)

Bang on the money Stutts. As per.

Pretty much yourself and myself plus the usual brigade on here agree for the most part.

I think we were all shouting for certain changes to be made. The point OwlsFan has made very well is that we don't know if we would have been right or not. That's why we hired a manager to make these calls and why we will never be considered for the job, despite clearly "knowing the game".

paul_oshea

28/03/2013, 2:06 PM

That argument is simply a cop out. It matches with the Trap comment "you are ireland", "not germany, not england".

All the pundits before and after were calling for the same. So called proper football people. Not just the fans.

Id rather finish on those points, but everyone was pretty happy with the subs he made against Sweden bar keogh. That got us the point. Nobody was happy with the substitutions against Austria, and we didn't get the 3 points. To suggest not to make changes or the changes were correct, because we can't ever know is a simple cop out , its the same as you saying we dont know, if we could have gotten better, but we know we couldn't have gotten worse with what he did.

Stuttgart88

28/03/2013, 2:13 PM

None of us knows what might have happened. What did happen was that we got a lot of things wrong and yet nearly won. The things we got wrong were obvious to many and in advance - Supreme Feet's blog is evidence of that, unless he cheated. Sometimes you do the right thing and get the wrong outcome but this doesn't warrant a discussion on philosophy, time travel or quantum physics evebn though it seems to be going that way.

Owls Fan's usual perspective is don't fire Trap, you'll get Paul Jewell, you can't tell what happens in a parallel universe and RTE is rubbish. He's often right, but the debate needs to be more expansive.

DeLorean

28/03/2013, 2:17 PM

That argument is simply a cop out. It matches with the Trap comment "you are ireland", "not germany, not england".

How's it a cop out? I thought at the time Sammon should have been taken off for Hooahan after an hour, I thought Long should have remained on, I thought Green should have replaced Whelan or even the fading McCarthy. I still think these changes should have been made now. The only difference is I'm willing to accept these things may not have worked even though to me, and the majority they were the obvious things to do.

As for Trap saying we are not Germany, etc.... that was in response to Tony O'Donoghue asking him if he was going to resign. It was basically his way of saying "f*** off, who the hell do you think you are?", a sentiment I particularly agreed with under the circumstances.

BonnieShels

28/03/2013, 2:19 PM

Do you rate yourself in some kind of foot.ie A-team BS? :)

Maybe fighting relegation considering some of the posters here. But definitely ahead of the blindingly doltish.

I think we were all shouting for certain changes to be made. The point OwlsFan has made very well is that we don't know if we would have been right or not. That's why we hired a manager to make these calls and why we will never be considered for the job, despite clearly "knowing the game".

You're obviously right to an extent. But despite these misgivings about Hoolahan's lack of defensive "quality" How could he as the extra man in midfield, keeping the ball, have led to a disaster, ie. something worse than what we got; a loss against Austria.

It wouldn't have. Unless there were collective Clarkisms for the last 20' and even then you can't fault Trap if that happened.

Obviously being considered for the job is not even on the agenda, but when you have people here clearly aware that what the manager was doing was inept then you have to ask yourself, are we all wrong and Trap is alright or vice versa? And given the way the game ended I would wager that we are the ones who are right!

DeLorean

28/03/2013, 2:27 PM

Like I say BS, I still believe certain changes should have been made. I also thought Sammon shouldn't have started. In hindsight, I'm not one bit convinced I was right about this as I do believe he helped set the tone for a really excellent first half performance. We have already established that yourself and Stutts (and the rest of the A-team :)) don't even agree that we played well in the first half so there's no great need to get into that one. My point is that even though something seems really obvious, it doesn't always work out the way you'd expect.

BonnieShels

28/03/2013, 2:33 PM

True enough. But what is your solution? No further discussion as there's nothing else that can be done.

Also I suppose you'd be in the A-Team too. :)

paul_oshea

28/03/2013, 2:37 PM

I can see how the Civil War started.

I find in moments of lull(i know that's wrong) still getting upset over losing 2 points and the indecisiveness of Trap, I realise that foot.ie is a form of soothing for me. :D

Don't go that far BS he only has 2408* posts.

*Aside is it possible to make that number dynamic, so my post is seamless in time i.e. if DL creates another post my number would automatically go up to 2409. Is that possible on Vbulletins? If not the solution is for DL not to post again. I don't think anyone would mind to be honest. Only joking DL :D

ifk101

28/03/2013, 2:40 PM

Maybe somebody from the A team can jog my memory? When Green came on, did we play a flat 3 in the center or did one of Green, McCarthy, Whelan play in a more advanced position?

paul_oshea

28/03/2013, 2:49 PM

Green played on the wing for walters, and walters pushed up top.

Another completely nonsensical idea - considering when we got a free no one went in (the box) for it and we just played it short anyway.

DeLorean

28/03/2013, 2:51 PM

True enough. But what is your solution? No further discussion as there's nothing else that can be done.

No, it's obviously worth discussing and chances are that Trap got it totally wrong from the sideline on the night. I just don't think things are "as matter of fact" as they're made out to be sometimes, and OwlsFan was right to point out that things may still have gone (or even remained) pear shaped.

Remember Sven getting ridiculed when he was the England manager for always making the popular decisions and not having a mind of his own? Well at least we can't accuse aul Trap of that!

paul_oshea

28/03/2013, 2:55 PM

No, but the thing is Owlsfan has come accustomed to this, so he takes an agnostic approach to the whole thing like, ah well shrugs shoulders, shur we can't do anything better, and is happy to just accept it.. To me that's not acceptable, maybe his years of experience seeing it over and over again, is a way of dealing with it, but for me there is always room for improvement and room to fix what goes wrong, whether that's a player making a mistake a la Clark or the manager making the wrong or not making any decisions. The problem here is the manager isn't learning and isn't changing so you guys can come on and defend him, but we will actually never know because he wont do what the majority see as the obvious.

I mean things went right away from home against a superior team to what we played last week, yet he goes and changes it again. We weren't going out to win against sweden with 20 mins to go, we were going out realistically to hold onto what we had, the exact same as what we were trying to do against Austria(hold on to what we had), but the changes-relative to what was required see point below- were all wrong and in such contrast to what happened in sweden. Its just mind boggling. ArGh!

In a way the changes player wise and position were similar to what we did in Sweden, but that wasn't what was required at the time against Austria, because in Sweden we were dominant in midfield really, never troubled, but against Austria we were, we needed to adapt and make the necessary changes to reflect and rectify the problems, not just do a like for like with the changes in Sweden.

Stuttgart88

28/03/2013, 2:57 PM

Maybe somebody from the A team can jog my memory? When Green came on, did we play a flat 3 in the center or did one of Green, McCarthy, Whelan play in a more advanced position?As Paul said, Walters swapped with Long and Green swapped with Walters. We all looked at each other and shook our heads. The situation was crying out for anything but that.
Bringing on Green (rather than, say, Hoolahan, Cox or Doyle) was fine but surely to man-mark Alaba, leaving the midfield 4 in tact. Thta might have allowed an austrian defender license to join in, but they had started to do that anyway.

Closed Account 2

28/03/2013, 2:58 PM

Owls Fan's usual perspective is don't fire Trap, you'll get Paul Jewell, you can't tell what happens in a parallel universe and RTE is rubbish. He's often right, but the debate needs to be more expansive.

But that is surely the biggest point about potentially getting rid of Trap. Not Jewell per say, but when you consider that we still have a chance (albeit slimmer) of second place and there are no credible candidates to replace him at the moment, why make the decision now. Is there anyone we could bring in now who would give us a much better chance of making second than Trap? I don't think there is. Furthermore what if we do get someone in who is a disaster (perhaps Jewell or someone like Stan, the text book example of woeful manager) and who really buggers up the campaign - we lose at home to Sweden, in Vienna and in K�ln, and maybe only draw home to the Kazakhs, we would plummet down the rankings and could end up with the group from hell for France 2016 - a tournament where (if we maintain our current seeding) we should have a great chance of qualification.

I think the FAI should be sounding out managers anyway since Trap isnt going to be around in a years time anyway, it would be wise of them to check on early availability (in case Trap goes before qualification is complete) but there is no point in firing Trap now without a viable replacement. Do we really want a Maurice Setters or Don Givens-esque interim in charge (I'm guessing it would be Tardelli who probably wouldnt be that different anyway.