Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Stuttgart88]

I think the simple fact is that Trap thinks McClean is still raw and maybe lacking big game experience. I don't agree but he was like a mad hatter in the Tyne / Wear derby last season and would have been sent off in an international.

I don't agree with Cox's selection either but I think the reverse explanation of the McClean decision is the key: Trap likes what Cox brings to these games (attitude, workrate, responsibility, experience) even if he has to be played in the wrong position.

JOS was muck at the Euros but for a qualifier against a low seed I'm less fussed.

[Wolfie]

Has to be said that the lead up to this campaign hardly points to a new dawn or a re-imagining of how this team can play.

I understand to expect as much was unrealistic as Trapp has proven himself incapable of flexibility but nothing from the summer has been faced up to.

Sorry lads - he's not the type of manager this group of players needs right now nor is he allowing the team play in the manner that the support want.

We may well still scrape results but we won't progress.

Personally, an unlikely second place from this group would most likely only result in a disappointing performance at the finals anyway. Does anyone really want a repeat of Euro 2012????

[zero]

Personally, an unlikely second place from this group would most likely only result in a disappointing performance at the finals anyway. Does anyone really want a repeat of Euro 2012????

i'd like a repeat of actually qualifiying. chances are in the world cup we'll be in a group with poorer quality sides.

[Wolfie]

i'd like a repeat of actually qualifiying. chances are in the world cup we'll be in a group with poorer quality sides.

We'd still be operating in a tactical straightjacket.

The first decent team we'd meet we'd be unable to compete with them.

What frustrates is that their is a core group of players that could bring so much more footballing quality to this team that are being stymied with increasingly bizarre excuses for exclusion.

We'll most likely waste this campaign limping from one game to the next and won't qualify. We'll be no nearer a proper system of play and various players will still have limited experience.

[DannyInvincible]

Sorry lads - he's not the type of manager this group of players needs right now nor is he allowing the team play in the manner that the support want.

It's about results though, and as long as Trap is contracted to be our manager, he's entitled to make whatever decisions he wants in order to go about achieving those results in the manner he sees fit. We can criticise, of course, but it's not about what individual players need or what supporters want. It's about Trap bringing the team to the 2014 World Cup, so, if we feel his methods aren't going to achieve that goal, it's more appropriate to criticise him on that basis.

[Wolfie]

It's about results though, and as long as Trap is contracted to be our manager, he's entitled to make whatever decisions he wants in order to go about achieving those results in the manner he sees fit. We can criticise, of course, but it's not about what individual players need or what supporters want. It's about Trap bringing the team to the 2014 World Cup, so, if we feel his methods aren't going to achieve that goal, it's more appropriate to criticise him on that basis.

A lot of the frustration and lack of faith that personally I'm picking up on, convinces me that many feel this team is about more than just results.

Fans and players want a team to be proud of, to identify with and to have a sense that they are going about things to the best of their potential and ability.

There's a groundswell of opinion that this team is being hindered from reaching its potential.

We're becoming a self fulfilling prophesy. We're now the one dimensional, primitive, hoofing team we were always lazily accused of being by the British media.

[jbyrne]

Trap and his squad have had two campaigns to date:

WC 2010
Undefeated in qualification group including drawing with current WC holders twice. Only knocked out under very dubious play off circumstances.

EURO 2012
Beaten only once while qualifying for first time in 6 attempts.

I think thats decent potential fulfilment for a group of players picked from lower EPL and championship squads.
Team currently ranked 26 in the world and was recently as high as 18th.

Id love to know on what basis we have any right to expect a higher potential.

[geysir]

If we take off from where we left the Serbia game, then I'm content.
It's an attack minded team, looks more a 4-2-3-1 to me. I'll wait and see how it pans out in the game.
Our player options aren't that great, not enough to generate a state of bewilderment in me about who Trap has selected to play.
I'd assume that McCarthy will play in front of Whelan and his distribution will be better than what we have been use to and we have a good selection of players on the bench.

[Duggie]

Trap and his squad have had two campaigns to date:

WC 2010
Undefeated in qualification group including drawing with current WC holders twice. Only knocked out under very dubious play off circumstances.

EURO 2012
Beaten only once while qualifying for first time in 6 attempts.

I think thats decent potential fulfilment for a group of players picked from lower EPL and championship squads.
Team currently ranked 26 in the world and was recently as high as 18th.

Id love to know on what basis we have any right to expect a higher potential.

ya ok but as we saw in the euro's maybe we were quite lucky not to be beaten on more occasions during those qualifying campaigns. all those little things we got away with were punished in the euros and look how we ended up. i'm willing to stick with trap for now but if we dont start playing our best players(Long, McClean) in there right positions sooner or later those draws and 1-0 wins will turn to defeats.

[Colbert Report]

Had a dream about the match last night. Finished 0-0.

[SwanVsDalton]

Had a dream about the match last night. Finished 0-0.

You'd sleep through a match like that.

[tetsujin1979]

Realistically, if any of us were to pick the team, there would be only one or two additions (Clark/Hoolahan) and one or two changes to the starting XI - McClean, who may not be 100% despite what he says on twitter, instead of Cox and O'Shea at centre half instead of O'Dea (FWIW I've no problem with O'Dea at centre half)
Walters and Long is a judgement call and Keane has historically played best with a target man (Quinn, Berbatov) so Walters gets the nod. Long will probably replace him as he tires anyway.

[jbyrne]

Realistically, if any of us were to pick the team, there would be only one or two additions (Clark/Hoolahan) and one or two changes to the starting XI - McClean, who may not be 100% despite what he says on twitter, instead of Cox and O'Shea at centre half instead of O'Dea (FWIW I've no problem with O'Dea at dentre half)
Walters and Long is a judgement call and Keane has historically played best with a target man (Quinn, Berbatov) so Walters gets the nod. Long will probably replace him as he tires anyway.

all very sensible talk

[Stuttgart88]

I think 7 or 8 of the starters would be the same but I also think the tactics would be less restrictive and the players might be able to express themselves more. "Just like under Stan?" some might ask. I'd say the players have learnt about the benefits of organisation and hard work over the last few years but I think it's time to add something more than that. Even if we're to focus on our "without the ball" work, we should be looking to do more than just stand off the opposition. I'm not saying we should go from being the Cliff Thorburn of international football to Alex Higgins. Ray Reardon would be a start.

[Kingdom]

Finding it hard to keep optimistic with the management at the moment. What I'd like to see would be:
Westwood
Kelly Josh Sledge Wilson
McCarthy Whelan
McGeady
Long McClean
Walters

That to me is a form team, a competent team and a team that would be comfortable with the formation. Long/Walters are interchangeable, as I think the burly striker description does Walters a disservice, as does "nippy forward" for Long.

I have my worries about this one. I reckon we're one bad result away from the whole setup unravelling too.

[Wolfie]

Id love to know on what basis we have any right to expect a higher potential.

If we continue to steadfastly refuse to play anything other than a containing game, that bypasses midfield - we'll never find out what our true potential is.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think 7 or 8 of the starters would be the same but I also think the tactics would be less restrictive and the players might be able to express themselves more. "Just like under Stan?" some might ask. I'd say the players have learnt about the benefits of organisation and hard work over the last few years but I think it's time to add something more than that. Even if we're to focus on our "without the ball" work, we should be looking to do more than just stand off the opposition. I'm not saying we should go from being the Cliff Thorburn of international football to Alex Higgins. Ray Reardon would be a start.
I'm willing to wait until after the match to judge on whether there's been a philosophy shift.

[jbyrne]

If we continue to steadfastly refuse to play anything other than a containing game, that bypasses midfield - we'll never find out what our true potential is.

some teams bypass ctre mid and use wingers some ignore wingers and use ctre mid. Trap has always picked two out and out widemen no matter who the opposition are with varying degress of success.

the bottom line is that we produce a certain type of player in this country with the odd exception like duff and we have to cut our cloth accordingly. only when we had probably the best holding ctre mid in the world at the time under mick did we let loose a little more with any kind of success. we can delude ourselves that players like hoolahan can come in and add this great spark to help unlease this prolific attack some would believe exists but its clutching at straws imo.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think Keane was a holding midfielder, was he? I always saw him as a box to box type.

[jbyrne]

I don't think Keane was a holding midfielder, was he? I always saw him as a box to box type.

I suppose he was but how many times was he back making covering tackles all over the defence? that was my point really (badly illustrated though)

[Charlie Darwin]

I think that was just his engine getting him everywhere at once. I think, along with injuries, it was the reason he hit the wall in his early 30s when most midfield players are still going strong.

[Closed Account 2]

Anyone know a place that might be showing this in the Hammersmith / Fulham area?

[amaccann]

I'd rather us play entertaining football and lose, than see them play in their creatively bankrupt fashion & draw. It's that simple for me. The Irish football team is more than just results or what tournament we go to - it's about pride & more importantly, self-respect: and I don't believe that Trap's format does anything for the latter. In fact I think it has the opposite result - he's effectively saying to the team & the nation "you're no good, don't try and be more than you are, just play this way and hope to scrap it out". Playing for your country should enlarger players' skillset & self-belief, not shrink & frustrate it.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think some people have a warped view of how entertaining the football we used to play was. We have always been comparatively industrial in our style of hoofball. 2000-2002 is probably the best football we've ever played, but it didn't last very long.

[Murfinator]

he's effectively saying to the team & the nation "you're no good, don't try and be more than you are, just play this way and hope to scrap it out".

For the most part though that'd be correct, they aren't good enough. The majority of our players are brought up through the most inept coaching system in Europe (England) so they're trained to be good at one thing and one thing only: being disciplined in a results business. Asking our players to be creative or expressive is a difficult feat because it goes against the training they've had their whole career.
I'd love our team to play like that too but it isn't going to happen unless England change their coaching philosophy or we start incentivising our young players to develop in higher skilled academies and play for more technical.
When the majority of your players play for scrappy hoofball sides like Stoke or Wolves you're going to wind up with a poor standard of game. It's not really something we can fix with a new international manager.

[Irish_Praha]

For the most part though that'd be correct, they aren't good enough. The majority of our players are brought up through the most inept coaching system in Europe (England) so they're trained to be good at one thing and one thing only: being disciplined in a results business. Asking our players to be creative or expressive is a difficult feat because it goes against the training they've had their whole career.
I'd love our team to play like that too but it isn't going to happen unless England change their coaching philosophy or we start incentivising our young players to develop in higher skilled academies and play for more technical.
When the majority of your players play for scrappy hoofball sides like Stoke or Wolves you're going to wind up with a poor standard of game. It's not really something we can fix with a new international manager.

I'd mostly agree with that but he could at least try and get them to keep a bit more possession.
I know we probably shouldn't being expecting to have more possession than teams like Spain and Italy but too much in the past we have conceeded far too much posession to teams that were technically on a par with or lower than us (Slovakia for example).
A lot of the time a player just hoofs the ball forward and loses posession rather than taking the simple short pass and keeping possesion.
I know the "English" style of coaching may contribute to this but we have enough players playing at a high enough level that they should be able to string a few passes together before launching into an attack.
With players like McCarthy, Gibson (if available), McGeady, Keane etc. we should be capable of a bit more, especially against weaker teams.

[Charlie Darwin]

Slovakia technically on a par or lower than us? I disagree.

[Stuttgart88]

For the most part though that'd be correct, they aren't good enough. The majority of our players are brought up through the most inept coaching system in Europe (England).
manager.
Funnily enough, I think England is turning a corner with regard to youth development and coaching. It's mainly been down to the clubs' academies but I was watching arsenal last week asking myself where are our Jenskinsons, Gibbs, Oxlades, and Liverpool's Sterling. They have a good bunch of young keepers coming through too.

[AlaskaFox]

I'd rather us play entertaining football and lose, than see them play in their creatively bankrupt fashion & draw. It's that simple for me. The Irish football team is more than just results or what tournament we go to - it's about pride & more importantly, self-respect: and I don't believe that Trap's format does anything for the latter. In fact I think it has the opposite result - he's effectively saying to the team & the nation "you're no good, don't try and be more than you are, just play this way and hope to scrap it out". Playing for your country should enlarger players' skillset & self-belief, not shrink & frustrate it.

So what you're saying is...
Bring back Stan!

[Charlie Darwin]

Funnily enough, I think England is turning a corner with regard to youth development and coaching. It's mainly been down to the clubs' academies but I was watching arsenal last week asking myself where are our Jenskinsons, Gibbs, Oxlades, and Liverpool's Sterling. They have a good bunch of young keepers coming through too.
I think you could have said the same thing at any point in the last few years. I think English players are becoming more technical but it's hardly been a seachange. They (and we) are still the dinosaurs of world football.

[tricky_colour]

Had a dream about the match last night. Finished 0-0.

No that was Friday, that's what happened!!!

[the bear]

I'd rather us play entertaining football and lose, than see them play in their creatively bankrupt fashion & draw. It's that simple for me. The Irish football team is more than just results or what tournament we go to - it's about pride & more importantly, self-respect: and I don't believe that Trap's format does anything for the latter. In fact I think it has the opposite result - he's effectively saying to the team & the nation "you're no good, don't try and be more than you are, just play this way and hope to scrap it out". Playing for your country should enlarger players' skillset & self-belief, not shrink & frustrate it.

If the Traps system was in anyway good enough with competing with good teams I would have no problem backing it. Fact is it has been proven to be an inferior system every time we play against a mediocre or better technical team. The system is not good enough try a different one. Should be this simple. If you're not trying to make things better you're holding everybody back.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We won't qualify and even if we did it'd be rubbish to watch... With this regime.

The only good thing about Trap is he's the sort of coach who can bore us through a campaign with conceding very few goals, usually. But precious little else.

[Crosby87]

I don't know Arthur. Our group in the WC would be a lot different than Croatia, Italy and ESP. You can play a bad team in the World Cup.

I hope we make it and Trap gets another chance. If it doesn't work out we will get a manager to play all this savvy attacking football everyone on here wants (with players at this time undetermined of course.) (Or maybe by 2016 they will allow "FIFA cloning" and we can dig up George Best, have his corpse declare for Ireland and clone it 20 times.)

[Sullivinho]

I think some people have a warped view of how entertaining the football we used to play was. We have always been comparatively industrial in our style of hoofball. 2000-2002 is probably the best football we've ever played, but it didn't last very long.

I'm not convinced it lasted longer than that opening qualifier against the Dutch tbh! I can vividly remember being shocked for all the right reasons.

Anyway, prediction: 0-2.

Quite relaxed about this one, no matter who occupies the left wing.

[Charlie Darwin]

We played some lovely stuff in that campaign. We were magnificent against Spain I think. Possibly the best ever performance by an Irish side, albeit we should have beaten a below-average Spain side.

[SkStu]

You can play a bad team in the World Cup.

What if we are the bad team...?

[SkStu]

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

[Diarmo]

I'd rather us play entertaining football and lose, than see them play in their creatively bankrupt fashion & draw. It's that simple for me. The Irish football team is more than just results or what tournament we go to - it's about pride & more importantly, self-respect: and I don't believe that Trap's format does anything for the latter. In fact I think it has the opposite result - he's effectively saying to the team & the nation "you're no good, don't try and be more than you are, just play this way and hope to scrap it out". Playing for your country should enlarger players' skillset & self-belief, not shrink & frustrate it.

Are you even an Ireland fan anymore? Any Irish fan worth their skin would like the win, regardless of performance. It's 10 years since we've been to a World Cup. And as for pride & self-respect? Despite how the Euros turned out I felt more proud of an Irish team in my lifetime, as I watched the National Anthem before the Croatia game. And I can guarantee you that I was prouder than I would have been playing lovely football away against Russia and losing 2-0.

[jbyrne]

The only good thing about Trap is he's the sort of coach who can bore us through a campaign with conceding very few goals, usually. But precious little else.

the average goals scored by all the 2nd place teams in the euro qualifiers was 16, we scored 15 (excluding play off). The 16 average is actually inflated by portugals 31 as they were in with san marino who conceeded over 50.

it seems most runners up achieved this in similar fashion. dont risk too much in attack to ensure you conceed as little as possible

[peadar1987]

I've always been of the opinion that if you want to watch something that's pretty for the sake of pretty, you can go to the ballet. For me, football is tribal, it's about your team winning games and getting results, doesn't matter if the goals come from a 30-pass flowing move or off Gary Doherty's arse after a miskick from their keeper.

In my opinion, Trap has gotten us punching above our weight, no matter how the football looks (and I don't even think it's that bad, I remember being in the horrors every time the opposition attacked under Stan, a bit of stability seems nice after that, it's not all about the attackers!).

[Stuttgart88]

I do think that there's a bit of refusal to accept qualification on its own merit. With us its always begrudging "sure we only got there cos we drew Iran / Estonia", anyone else and we'd have been out". I think any second / third placed seed that qualifies usually gets a bit of luck along the way. Only the big boys coast in.

That said, over the years the Swedes and Danes have qualified relatively regularly by actually engaging in football matches. The Swedes are as stuck on 4-4-2 as we are but they get better results than we do largely because they take teams on.

Trap's methods have worked in qualifying so far but I think cracks have been papered over and the goals against column is misleading. We ship lots of chances even to mediocre teams and I fear that this will cost us. Our inability or unwillingness to retain the ball is at the root of the opposition getting possession which gives chances. I hope Trap has realised this. I think we need to play on the front foot more.

[ArdeeBhoy]

the average goals scored by all the 2nd place teams in the euro qualifiers was 16, we scored 15 (excluding play off). The 16 average is actually inflated by portugals 31 as they were in with san marino who conceeded over 50.

it seems most runners up achieved this in similar fashion. dont risk too much in attack to ensure you conceed as little as possible
'Concede'.

Am well aware of the strengths of having a good defence, fine. And yes for us, it's a results business.

But it's also the manner in which we play...
Some of which would be alleviated by what Stutts just said in his last post.

I sometimes wonder if some on here have even the slightest clue about tactics or how to set teams up...
:rolleyes:

[SwanVsDalton]

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

Why play up the positives of course. Kazakhstan are up-and-coming superstars, we're saving a performance for Germany, Whelan only got by-passed half-a-dozen times etc etc...*kidding*

I'd say nearly everyone besides Mrs Trappattoni would agree losing on Friday would be a complete disaster.

It'd be more interesting if we managed to lose/draw but actually played fantastic, expansive football, as unlikely as it is.

[DannyInvincible]

Don't Kazakhstan come good in September?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Meaning...

[jbyrne]

'Concede'.
Am well aware of the strengths of having a good defence, fine. And yes for us, it's a results business.

But it's also the manner in which we play...
Some of which would be alleviated by what Stutts just said in his last post.

I sometimes wonder if some on here have even the slightest clue about tactics or how to set teams up...:rolleyes:

but you do and you know also how to avoid typos

[ArdeeBhoy]

Pretty much. But it's all relative.
;)

[tetsujin1979]

I do think that there's a bit of refusal to accept qualification on its own merit. With us its always begrudging "sure we only got there cos we drew Iran / Estonia", anyone else and we'd have been out". I think any second / third placed seed that qualifies usually gets a bit of luck along the way. Only the big boys coast in.That argument usually ignores the results over the preceding 18 months that meant we could be drawn against the likes of Estonia or Iran. Particularly the Estonia draw, we were the only third seeded team from the qualifiers in the top seeds for the play offs.

[Mr A]

I've heard the 'good football is more important than results' thing before. As we cycled through various managers at Harps this has been proven not to be true- if you're playing nice football but losing every week your crowds drop and those that remain wish for a better defence.

Often when Ireland try to play passing football they give the ball away anyway and in more dangerous positions than they would by being more direct. At a club side you could work on evolving with style and abilities of your players but that's very difficult with an international side. Especially with a squad that has very few really good players.

Would I like to see Ireland play sexy, attacking football? Hell yeah! But we don't have the players for it in my opinion. I see the comments people make about some of our peripheral players whose abilities seem stellar and wonder if we're talking about the same guys. But then there's always a tendency in football to over rate your own players.

Meanwhile we made it to the Euros for only the second time in our history- with probably the worst squad we've ever taken to a major finals. So clearly the system isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

But the media have turned on Trap, like they do eventually on all Ireland managers and public opinion is inclined to agree. So he's in big trouble the first time we have some poor results.