Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[DannyInvincible]

Meaning...

Just regurgitating one of Stan's comical quotes in response to SkStu's, "Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te?"

[Stuttgart88]

For me it's not about playing pretty football versus playing ugly football. I'd take ugly with results any day of the week.

My point is more that we can play more effective football. We regularly get dominated in midfield even against lowly ranked opposition, we play without the ball too much, our full backs barely venture forward, we hoof it too much, we retain the ball badly and we concede chances. I think we can improve on all those counts while keeping the conservative foundations in tact.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Danny, not sure that joke works.
And agree with Stutts again...
With the simple point also, we have virtually zilch creativity from central midfield.
IMO a disgrace.

[geysir]

A midfielder that looks to receive the ball from the back 4 and play it at least sideways is a great improvement, not to mention a bit of technical skill to handle a bit of pressure.
I think we are moving in the direction of a 50/50 game, possession football/hoofing.

[osarusan]

My point is more that we can play more effective football. We regularly get dominated in midfield even against lowly ranked opposition, we play without the ball too much, our full backs barely venture forward, we hoof it too much, we retain the ball badly and we concede chances. I think we can improve on all those counts while keeping the conservative foundations in tact.

I'd second all this.

It's tiring to read comment after comment suggesting that posters who'd like us to pass the ball better 'would prefer how we were under Stan' or words to that effect.

Are we better than we were then? Of course, but that doesn't mean we are as good as we can be. We have a game plan now which involves conceding huge amounts of possession to even the poorest of teams, and relying on our defensive organisation get through games. It's a game plan that got us through the group, but it was the foundation for our destruction in the Euros. And I'm worried that we will keep the same system in place for this campaign with changes only happening to personnel, rather than the system and roles players are told to play.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Guarniad take on Trap.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/sep/06/giovanni-trapattoni-republic-ireland-change?CMP=twt_gu&fb=native

[OwlsFan]

The buzz word "system". Why, because Spain played us off the park. We were NOT played off the park by Croatia (on another day it would have been 1-1) and we have matched Italy in our previous games, all playing 4-4-2. Other than the Russian game, we have more than held our own away from home playing 4-4-2 or whatever. I think Trapp's system, formation, tactics whatever you want to call them work away from home with the opposition coming on to us (2 unbeaten campaigns away speaks volumes).

His (our) problem is at home. It just doesn't work. We have had some pretty poor teams come to Dublin and outplay us (Celtic Cup aside where we faced other sides equally uncomfortable on the ball). A solution is required for at home. I am not paid €1.5 million (at least not as a football manager) a year so I don't know the answer but we need one.

As to "good football" versus results football, no contest. How much "good football" we can play with a smattering of first teamers from the lower reaches of the EPL, reserve EPL players, Championship players and a couple of across the pond players I am not sure. This debate will have to wait for another day (perhaps two games if both go pear shaped) but for the moment, it's time to put that cat back in the bag and get on with what we've got.

[Charlie Darwin]

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te
I really doubt there would be too many people making excuses in that eventuality. I would probably fall into the fanboy camp but I couldn't defend him if he doesn't get a win over there.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, not sure that joke works.

Just my way of saying that anything other than three points from this game would be indefensible, just like Stan's comical excuse for our shambolic performance against the supposed banana-skin of San Marino. We're ranked 116 places above Kazakhstan; they're ranked 142nd in the world for a reason.

[Charlie Darwin]

I laughed at your joke, Danny.

[Wolfie]

The mildest suggestion from some of us that we can introduce more effective elements to our play brings the usual stock responses and a misunderstanding of what is being said.

I'm not suggesting this team adopts the tactical equivalent of Bliztkrieg meets Harlem Globetrotters.

Even a bloke down the local 5 a side can tell you that when his local team retain the ball, encourage simple passing movement - other benefits, openings and situations automatically present themselves.

The above paragraph does not suggest over elaborate "over egging" of the situation with 38 passing movements to get to central midfield.

Just simple, economical finding of a man and working an opening and just as importantly retaining possession.

A lot of our current malaise is originating at full back also. I don't know if its instruction or whether that Ward / O'Shea / Kelly do it of their own volition - but there is rarely an attempt to pick out a player. Its aimlessly pelted up the line by playing the percentages. Its handing the impetus to the opposition.

[Charlie Darwin]

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

[Wolfie]

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

I presume that's a rhetorical question??????

[SwanVsDalton]

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

Darron Gibson would often pull deep for the full-back - point taken though, doesn't happen often and they have less options.

I'd agree with Wolfie insomuch as our full-backs (O'Shea in particular) are terrible distributors. There's a difference between an aimless lump and a decent long-ball. At the very least having full-backs comfortable on the ball would give us another point of forward momentum, and give us more options on the front foot.

It shouldn't be that hard to fix either. I think Kelly (on the right), Wilson and Foley (get him back) would be an improvement in this regard.


The mildest suggestion from some of us that we can introduce more effective elements to our play brings the usual stock responses and a misunderstanding of what is being said.

For every post of that ilk, there's another dismissive one suggesting anyone who defends the side or manager is just another apologist.

I wholeheartedly agree with anyone who suggests we can maintain results while improving our play. There are several things Trap could try which would make us more potent and proactive while remaining stubborn in defence.

[zero]

is the team going to be named today? is there a preff conference scheduled? i think we all have a good idea who will be playing but would like confirmation.

[Wolfie]

Midfield not showing and the Fullbacks not distributing is a circular argument.

The Midfield eventually don't show because they assume the full back won't play it.

The Full Back won't play it because they assume the Midfielder isn't going to show.

I mentioned the Fullbacks because ideally that's where elements of good play could begin from there.

[tetsujin1979]

starting XI confirmed: https://twitter.com/FAIreland/statuses/243713984568643584

Starting XI v Kazakhstan: Westwood, O'Shea, St. Ledger, O'Dea, Ward, Whelan, McCarthy, McGeady, Cox, Walters, Keane #IRLKAZ

[pineapple stu]

We were NOT played off the park by Croatia (on another day it would have been 1-1)
I beg to differ. Not the only one I'm sure.

At least Trap has left Keane in the team. Which puts him ahead of many of the would-be managers on here in my eyes. :)

[Mr A]

As per usual, I look at our fullbacks and worry. Hopefully it won't matter too much in Kazakhstan though.

[tricky_colour]

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

Pretty much the same way as if he played the unusual turgid ****es I expect.

[tricky_colour]

Anyone know the Taliban team?

[tommy_c12000]

Centre of defence very weak. I would much prefer to see O'Shea partnered with St. Ledger. O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen. Ward at full back continues to be a glaring weak link. I would prefer Marc Wilson there with Stephen Kelly at right full. McGeady and McClean have got to be our wingers, period. Wot is Cox doing in the side? Should be a 3-man midfield with Long alone up front. Shocking selection from Trap. Trap out.

[tricky_colour]

Kazakhstan captain: We must beat Ireland
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/kazakhstan-captain-we-must-beat-ireland-565937.html


Kazakhstan captain Kairat Nurdauletov has warned the Republic of Ireland that his team will settle for nothing less than victory in tomorrow's World Cup qualifier in Astana.

Despite their off-the-field troubles, Ireland go into their first World Cup qualifier tomorrow as big favourites.

Kazakhstan are ranked 116 places below Giovanni Trapattoni's team in the FIFA ladder and their last two World Cup qualifying campaigns have seen them pick up just two wins - both against Andorra - and one draw versus Turkey.

The Kazakhs have spent over a week at a training camp preparing for tomorrow's game, however, and defender Nurdauletov was today in a bullish mood about his team's chances of pulling off an upset.

"We would like to win. Only a victory will do. We wouldn't accept a draw," Nurdauletov told a press conference in the country's capital today.

"Our preparation went well. We have been preparing specifically for the Irish team.

"We feel very good. We want to prove that our football is improving and developing."

Kazakhstan have struggled to make an impact on world football since their birth as a nation 21 years ago.

The former Soviet Republic do have a professional league, but the standard is poor and only a handful of their international squad play abroad.

They country's football association have taken steps to improve Kazakhstan's performances on the world level by recruiting Miroslav Beranek - a manager who has 21 years' experience with teams across the globe from Slavia Prague to Arab side Al-Wasl, who until recently were managed by Diego Maradona.

The Czech hopes he can end his team's reputation as one of the minnows of European football by challenging the likes of the Republic, Austria and Sweden for a place away from the lower reaches of Group C.

"Our group can be split into three - the first group is Germany, the second is Ireland, Sweden and Austria, and the third is our nation and the Faroe Islands," said Beranek, who assumed his role last year.

"I want to close that gap between the second and third group, I want to show that there is not such a big difference and we have a match here to show we can do this."

Trapattoni faced calls for his head following the Republic's poor showing at Euro 2012, and the Italian has been placed under further pressure in recent weeks.

Damien Duff and Shay Given, who won 225 caps between them, both told Trapattoni they were retiring from international football and the Italian also received the unwelcome news that Darron Gibson refused a call up for tomorrow's game, apparently due to his disappointment at not playing during Euro 2012.

Beranek insists his team face a tough task if they are to win tomorrow, however, citing key players like Robbie Keane and Aiden McGeady who he fears could tear the hosts apart.

"There are lots of good players in the squad who can fill the gaps of those who have retired," Beranek said.

"Ireland have players who play in the Premier League, who play in the USA, and there is Aiden McGeady, who plays for Spartak Moscow. The team have lots of good players.

"I watched Robbie Keane play in a game recently. He had two chances and scored two goals.

"The team do have weak points. I will not discuss them now but I have told my players what they are and they will try to exploit them."

Local officials expect the 30,000-capacity Astana Arena to be two-thirds full for tomorrow evening's game, which will be played on an Astroturf pitch.

[jbyrne]

O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen

when has he ever even nearly let us down?
I would put forward his very fine performance away against Ruissia as an example that O'Dea is actually underrated

[tetsujin1979]

O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen.you could make that argument about any player. O'Dea has played well with various partners at centre half, was comfortable beside Dunne in Russia, and was better than O'Shea against Macedonia. The problem I have with the O'Dea and St Ledger is that there's no natural leader in the partnership, so it puts a much greater responsability on Westwood to tell them where to stand, who to mark, etc.
Simply put O'Dea + St Ledger + O'Shea > O'Shea + St Ledger + A.N.Other

[tommy_c12000]

when has he ever even nearly let us down?
I would put forward his very fine performance away against Ruissia as an example that O'Dea is actually underrated

He is not good enough for international football. He is playing with Toronto now in the MLS which is about his level.

[Stuttgart88]

He is not good enough for international football. He is playing with Toronto now in the MLS which is about his level.
What level is international football? Kazakhstan and Faroes or Spain and Italy? O'Dea did just fine against better teams than Kazakhstan.

I found his explanation for his move to Toronto very refreshing actually.

[Charlie Darwin]

The MLS is full of players who have played at many more major international tournaments than ours have. In fact, I'd guess there are many more than there are in Scotland, probably the English Championship too.

[IsMiseSean]

The problem I have with the O'Dea and St Ledger is that there's no natural leader in the partnership, so it puts a much greater responsability on Westwood to tell them where to stand, who to mark, etc.

I agree. I would have preferred to see O'Shea & O'Dea start a CB with Kelly at RB. Harsh on Sledge but I thought they looked OK against Serbia.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Does anyone know why Kazakstan joined UEFA after (re)starting out in Asia?

[Stuttgart88]

Didn't Sledge & O'Dea play together in Liege? A friendly I know, but a good test nonetheless.

[pineapple stu]

Does anyone know why Kazakstan joined UEFA after (re)starting out in Asia?
Money.

[SkStu]

Does anyone know why Kazakstan joined UEFA after (re)starting out in Asia?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/nov/02/theknowledge.sport


OUR FRIENDS IN THE EAST

"How did it transpire that Kazakhstan falls under Uefa's jurisdiction while Uzbekistan, their neighbour to the south, play in the Asian department?" wonders Mikael Colville-Andersen.

This goes back to 2002, Mikael, when Kazakhstan became the 52nd member association of Uefa. Despite its location in the heart of Asia (bordering China, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Russia and, of course, Uzbekistan), the Kazakhs were keen to leave the Asian Football Confederation (AFC) behind. It could well have had something to do with their failure to qualify for the 2002 World Cup, when they had finished their qualifying group unbeaten, and with an identical record to Iraq, who eventually progressed. But, officially at least, their addition was seen as a return to the fold, having formerly been a part of the Uefa-affiliated USSR.

"They had resigned from the AFC and in that sense were homeless," explained Mike Lee, former Uefa communications director, at the time. "They believe that they're more naturally European, they want to be more European-turning in their outlook as a nation and as an economy. If a country has a historical and territorial base that is relevant it has a right to pursue that." Kazakhstan FA president Rakhat Aliyev added: "Practically speaking, it means more contacts with Europe and more investment projects. It will also lead to a better future for players and especially young people in the country. It will lead to a higher professional level."

For the time being, however, their switch to Europe hasn't proved so lucrative; in qualifying for the 2006 World Cup, Kazakhstan finished bottom of Group Two with a solitary point from 12 games.

Probably money though...

[Murfinator]

Centre of defence very weak. I would much prefer to see O'Shea partnered with St. Ledger. O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen. Ward at full back continues to be a glaring weak link. I would prefer Marc Wilson there with Stephen Kelly at right full. McGeady and McClean have got to be our wingers, period. Wot is Cox doing in the side? Should be a 3-man midfield with Long alone up front. Shocking selection from Trap. Trap out.

Your views on O'Dea are ridiculous and entirely unmerited other than your Sky influenced put down on the MLS. Pathetic to consider yourself a fan of the game and belief in such blanket judgments.

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, money aside, the idea that Kazakhstan feels more European than Asian is quite plausible. Certainly Russia, even in the east, rarely feels Asian. And they'd previously "competed" in UEFA as part of the USSR.

[SkStu]

Absolutely plausible.

[jbyrne]

He is not good enough for international football. He is playing with Toronto now in the MLS which is about his level.

his ability at international level can only be judged on his performances at international level which to date have been good. your assertion is therefore baseless.

[tommy_c12000]

Your views on O'Dea are ridiculous and entirely unmerited other than your Sky influenced put down on the MLS. Pathetic to consider yourself a fan of the game and belief in such blanket judgments.

Ipswich (possibly) and Toronto are the only two clubs that ever showed genuine interest in retaining O'Dea long term. Celtic, Reading and Leeds all lost interest fairly quickly. Hardly "ridiculous and entirely unmerited" if those two footballing powerhouses are the only clubs he "established" himself at. I've never heard Sky refer to the MLS, other than keeping people up to date on Beckham. What's the "blanket judgement" I've made? That he is playing MLS so I am automatically presuming that he is a poor centre half is it? I've watched O'Dea for Celtic, Ipswich, Reading and a small bit with Leeds which has enabled me to come to that conclusion regardless of what league he is playing in. Good man.

[Murfinator]

Ipswich (possibly) and Toronto are the only two clubs that ever showed genuine interest in retaining O'Dea long term. Celtic, Reading and Leeds all lost interest fairly quickly. Hardly "ridiculous and entirely unmerited" if those two footballing powerhouses are the only clubs he "established" himself at. I've never heard Sky refer to the MLS, other than keeping people up to date on Beckham. What's the "blanket judgement" I've made? That he is playing MLS so I am automatically presuming that he is a poor centre half is it? I've watched O'Dea for Celtic, Ipswich, Reading and a small bit with Leeds which has enabled me to come to that conclusion regardless of what league he is playing in. Good man.

Maybe you should stick to that reasoning then instead of "He is playing with Toronto now" as your answer to rationalise why he isn't international standard.

[tommy_c12000]

his ability at international level can only be judged on his performances at international level which to date have been good. your assertion is therefore baseless.

What has he? 1 international competitive cap is it? I'm open to correction. Not much basis for forming a judgement on his international capabilities. Unless you want to bring in friendlies against Paraguay, Algeria, South Africa, etc into the reckoning......

[jbyrne]

What has he? 1 international competitive cap is it? I'm open to correction. Not much basis for forming a judgement on his international capabilities. Unless you want to bring in friendlies against Paraguay, Algeria, South Africa, etc into the reckoning......

then why did you do so?

[Stuttgart88]

Macedonia and Russia are 2 competitive games I recall and he did fine. He's a back up CB that has been called upon due to Dunne's injury. I don't see why there's such strength of opinion against him.

[Olé Olé]

I have my own reservations about the back 4, but given the experience Trap has afforded the 4 in question then they automatically become first-choice. My reservation pertains to Marc Wilson but Ward hasn't done enough wrong and has sufficient game time under his belt to ensure he merits the spot.
In midfield, I think Trap has missed a trick. What's the reason for Cox's exclusion ahead of McClean? Lack of international experience on McClean's part? The only viable way McClean is going to gain this experience is against teams like Kazakhstan. Trap hardly sees Cox as an automatic starter on the wing for this campaign. I'm sure this issue will be addressed with a substitute appearance for McClean at a fairly early juncture. But, a degree of security would still have existed in playing him from the off i.e. the fact that he's a good player, not to mention his strong work ethic.
The selection up front is on the money. Keane and Walters should compliment one another in a way I don't think Long-Keane would. I think Long must see himself as Robbie's heir rather than his partner by now. Walters deserves his start on this basis.

There's also the possibility that Trap is selecting this side in the interest of formational flexibility. He may be considering to switch to 4-2-3-1. Cox is quite a good number 10 striker in that his link-up play sees him make sweet passes and he's more than capable at striking from long range. Were this to be a factor for Trap's selection then switching Cox to play off of Keane with McGeady on the left flank and Walters on the right would work quite well. Given the level of tactical maturity the three players in question should bear, perhaps Trap sees the trio as more viable options than the more inexperienced James McClean. McGeady, Walters and Cox should all be more positionally flexible than McClean. I'm not seeking to deride McClean here, but we have seen how Trap places huge emphasis on factors such as these in his prior selections.
The above factors aside, I can't imagine many sides having the fear of God struck into them at the sight of that quartet in comparison to the attacks of, for instance, most Premier League attacking quartets. Furthermore, maybe it's a bit ambitious of me to think Trap would deploy such an attacking formation.

Delighted to see James McCarthy get his first competitive start. Can't wait to see him in action in his first of many, many.

[Charlie Darwin]

Trap hardly sees Cox as an automatic starter on the wing for this campaign.
Who else is he going to play there if not McClean?

On a side note, the BBC Newsline reader could barely contain his glee when he announced McClean hadn't made the first team.

[zero]

i think this is the ideal game to start the campaign really. it's a must win, but against poor opposition. we tend to do better away from home and there won't be the boo boy element if things aren't going well (e.g. we're not ahead by half time).

on team selection, my main gripe is o'shea at full back. he's very frustrating to watch there - gives the ball away, doesn't make good runs, doesn't properly support the attacking play. the cox/mcclean thing isn't too surprising, trap always gradually introduces players before making them starters - walters for example. if mcclean keeps working hard he'll get his starting place.

[shakermaker1982]

The most depressing thing for me is that Whelan-Andrews will still be first choice MF pairing if fit.

Cox & Long would be up front for me.

McClean on the wing.

Wilson at LB.

O'Shea, Ward and Whelan are so so lucky the Trap loves em. I know I'll be ranting in the pub as soon as I see O'Shea hoofing the ball forward within a minute tomorrow night. Same old same old.

[peadar1987]

It could be that Trap is saving McClean for late in the game when Kazakh legs get tired. I remember there was uproar among Stoke supporters a few seasons back when Ricardo Fuller, arguably our most naturally talented player at the time, wasn't starting every game. It later emerged in an interview with Tony Pulis that Fuller wasn't really up to completing a full 90 minutes, so he was saving him to use once players like Walters, Sidibe, and Cresswell had worn out the centre backs. And Fuller tore teams to shreds.

[Charlie Darwin]

The punchline being that Ricardo couldn't possibly get any Fuller.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/nov/02/theknowledge.sport



Probably money though...
There's also an article in the Times too: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2012/0906/1224323687247.html

I think the arguments are interlinked, but it's a combination of better opposition and money that will presumably lead to a better international side.

The most interesting part is this:


Following in Russia's footsteps, Kazakhstan will also switch to an autumn-spring calendar from next season. Wages at the top clubs in the Kazakh Premier League average about €12,000 a month, although the highest-paid players can earn double that amount, the source said. Further down the league table, average wages are closer to €4,750-5,500 a month.

If only the League of Ireland etc etc

[bishbash]

I would like to see a team, when fit and available, of

Kelly. Dunne. O'shea. Wilson

Whelan. Gibson

Mcgeady. McCarthy. McLean

Long

Still difficult to break down but with the ability to keep the ball slightly more. I know people will say Traps system got us to the euros but it also got us completely pummelled. I think we can be far more competitive against the 'top' teams than with with 4-4-2