Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Supreme feet]

Aside from Tricky Colour and Rafa's judgement, I'd put it in more of a positives/negatives/grey areas way;

Positives: Draws away to Russia, France and Italy in qualifying. Away draws in difficult venues against tricky Eastern European sides with similar resources/player pool to us: Slovakia, Bulgaria, Montenegro. 100% record in qualifiers against 4th and 5th seeds; Cyprus, Georgia, Armenia, Macedonia. Comprehensive 4-0 playoff victory against Estonia. Friendly wins against Colombia, Paraguay, Italy, and Bosnia. Nations Cup victory. Generally solid defence, went on a 13-game unbeaten run, and went eight games without conceding in 2011. Huge improvement compared to previous managers with arguably better resources. Favourable record in the last four years when compared to countries with higher-profile players and stronger traditions in European football, i.e. Romania, Belgium, Serbia, Turkey.

Negatives: Losing three out of three in Euro 2012. Home draws against Bulgaria and Slovakia. Home defeats against Russia and France. Losing friendlies against Poland, Australia and Norway. Poor ball retention in many games, stagnant starting XI since 2009, too many squad places ‘assured’ to limited players, not enough chances given to younger players. Squads generally selected with a heaver emphasis towards ‘continuity’ rather than form or ability. Paul Green.

Potential grey areas: Was qualification for Euro 2012 as big an achievement for Trap, given that the draw was relatively kind? Could, say, Andy Reid have made much of a difference to those costly dropped points in the 2010 qualifiers? How much of a factor was Trapattoni, and those ill-advised comments, in Steven Reid’s international retirement? Could more have been done to coax Stephen Ireland on board? Would a change in formation have yielded better results, or would it have necessitated the dropping of too many key players? Are the young players being ‘ignored’ by Trapattoni actually much of an improvement on the incumbents? Is Seamus Coleman actually a midfielder or defender? Are central midfielders actually told not to look for the ball or to pass it accurately, or is it a failure of their individual technical ability? Are full-backs under instruction to play it long and not cross the half-way line, or is it a failure of their individual technical ability? Is miscommunication really as big an issue as the media play it up to be? Were the Euro 2012 defeats more down to bad tactics/selections or individual mistakes from normally reliable players? Is there a clear plan for the future, particularly with regard to formation and the addressing of weaker areas, i.e. full-back and central midfield?

To me, it seems like there are more positives than negatives, but more grey areas than both, which reflects the fact that more people are divided on Trap than most other managers bar Staunton. Your perspective on the grey areas will generally inform your opinion on Trap.

[paul_oshea]

Some of the grey areas you put in there are a lot clearer than you make out.

I mean coaxing stephen ireland isnt a grey area. Or stephen reid coming out of retirement, these are things that we cannot directly associate or assume would make a difference if they had. Thats not really a grey area, its too up in the air, it must be more factual, but without guarantee. For example was the euro performances down to individual mistakes or poor tactical formations? Or was it simply a case of both? I think its a case of both, some blame which lies at the fault of the players, some which lies at the fault of Trap. Thats not really a grey area, and its not really open to interpretation etiher.

The only real thing open to interpretation(or grey area as you call it) would be things we cant directly answer, such as is the Media blowing the miscommunication out of the water or is it exaggerating. IF its exaggerated or blown out of proportion then thats something we cant answer and we can only apportion blame on Trap - or not - based on what our overall opinion/belief is.

My point is, there is very little grey area really.

[PatJR]

It annoys me when folks throw out the old line that Trap doesn't try out players etc. He has tried out a lot of players in his time in charge, young and not so young!! Off the top of my head this is a list of players who got their first cap 2008 or later - St Ledger, Ward, Westwood, Whelan, Andrews, Lawrence, N Hunt, Best, Folan, McCarthy, Fahy, McClean, Coleman, Green, Westwood, Forde, Walters, Cox, Foley, Cunningham, Cillian Sheridan, Ciaran Clarke.

Some have become regulars, some have come and gone, many you may not approve of but to say he doesn't try players out just doesn't hold true. Name the Messi type players sitting at home crying because they never got a call up (Wes Holoohan deosn't count :)).

[EastTerracer]

For those in America, it seems that GolTV (available on cable / satellite in most areas) will have the Kazakhstan-Ireland live on Friday week. A noon kick-off (Eastern time). (http://www.goltv.tv/en/schedule_en)

GolTV did a rights deal with Kentaro earlier this year and obtained the world cup rights to Ireland, Kazakhstan, Sweden, Austria and Faroes home games. So, apart from the away game in Germany (and barring clashes with better games), it looks like most of Ireland's qualifying games will be available on cable for the American brigade. I suspect the Germany away games will be available on ESPN3 along with almost all the other European qualifying matches.

[Crosby87]

Do you know, Is that a PPV channel? B/C there was an article in the Daily News soccer section last week about how we will be seeing less soccer in NYC b/c Gol is buying everything up and its hardly offered anywhere or something like that?

[EastTerracer]

No, GolTV is a regular channel - it is part of the Sports Add-on on Time Warner Cable (costs about $5.95 extra a month).

The new channel who are buying all the other rights are BeIn1 Sports (owned by Al Jazeera) - they have bought all the rights to LaLiga, Serie A and will soon be trying to get some English premier league rights too. GolTV has actually been hurt by losing the Spanish rights as it was their best product in the past. BeIn1 sports only seems to be available on DirectTV so far.

[Stuttgart88]

Some of the grey areas you put in there are a lot clearer than you make out.

I mean coaxing stephen ireland isnt a grey area. Or stephen reid coming out of retirement, these are things that we cannot directly associate or assume would make a difference if they had. Thats not really a grey area, its too up in the air, it must be more factual, but without guarantee. For example was the euro performances down to individual mistakes or poor tactical formations? Or was it simply a case of both? I think its a case of both, some blame which lies at the fault of the players, some which lies at the fault of Trap. Thats not really a grey area, and its not really open to interpretation etiher.

The only real thing open to interpretation(or grey area as you call it) would be things we cant directly answer, such as is the Media blowing the miscommunication out of the water or is it exaggerating. IF its exaggerated or blown out of proportion then thats something we cant answer and we can only apportion blame on Trap - or not - based on what our overall opinion/belief is.

My point is, there is very little grey area really.
I think this whole post is open to interpretation. In fact, I'd like an interpreter...

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, it's true that Trap has tried out new players and lots of them, but I think that fact also disguises that he rarely makes changes that aren't enforced and he has a track record of playing players in unsuitable roles (Cox and Keogh as midfielders for example, or McCarthy against Uruguay). Wasn't it the case that the starting XI against Croatia contained 8 players that played Georgia in Mainz nearly 4 years' earlier, and that would have been 9 had it not been for Duff's absence that day? Again though, I suppose it can be argued that poor form and injury have ruled out new options at critical times and a lot of selection alternatives are marginal decisions anyway.

For me, the biggest game changer in how I view Trap is the communication issue. I don't think this is media exaggeration, I think it's farcical. Players and management (it doesn't have to be Trap, Tardelli would do) have to flippin' well speak to each other. Text communication is total and utter rubbish unless it's for basics such as something that requires a yes/no answer. I have been more than glass-half-full in viewing Trap up until lately but this is pi$$ing me off no end.

[Murfinator]

How I wish our biggest problem was something as trivial as communication channels.

[Stuttgart88]

Just to clarify: I've generally been pro-Trap despite drab, unadventurous football because I think he had a philosophy that by hook or by crook was getting us results that we hadn't been getting under Kerr and Stan. My reservations and criticisms were outweighed by the results. Even the null points in Poland can be part-justified by the fact that we were second favourite in each game anyway and we got what the formbook would have predicted against very good teams. I thought Trap didn't help the situation with his selections and tactics but it might have made no difference anyway. So, Trap is still shading it for me at this point.

But now, after years of controversial withdrawals and miscommunications and accusations that Trap is lazy in between international meet-ups, it transpires Trap hasn't been in contact with the senior players (bar Dunne when the retirements situation became critical) nor had they with him. This isn't right and it has tipped Trap's score into the half-empty glass as far as I'm concerned.

I'm tired of it and I think the evidence is mounting that our senior team is being mismanaged.

[davey]

For those in America, it seems that GolTV (available on cable / satellite in most areas) will have the Kazakhstan-Ireland live on Friday week. A noon kick-off (Eastern time). (http://www.goltv.tv/en/schedule_en)

GolTV did a rights deal with Kentaro earlier this year and obtained the world cup rights to Ireland, Kazakhstan, Sweden, Austria and Faroes home games. So, apart from the away game in Germany (and barring clashes with better games), it looks like most of Ireland's qualifying games will be available on cable for the American brigade. I suspect the Germany away games will be available on ESPN3 along with almost all the other European qualifying matches.

It doesn't look like any UK based channels have picked the game up. Hope someone does in the next week. Is it on RTE in Ireland?

[p2011]

But now, after years of controversial withdrawals and miscommunications and accusations that Trap is lazy in between international meet-ups, it transpires Trap hasn't been in contact with the senior players (bar Dunne when the retirements situation became critical) nor had they with him. This isn't right and it has tipped Trap's score into the half-empty glass as far as I'm concerned.

This sounds like a spot-on reading of the situation to me. A little bit of pro-active communication would probably have persuaded Duff (one of our best and most effective players) to stay on, but it didn't happen and Duff is lost to us for the moment. DD owes us nothing, don't get me wrong, but a slightly more active manager would probably have kept him on board.

As regards Benitez... he has probably seen 2 Ireland matches in the last 4 years and then had a microphone stuck in his face and had say something. I doubt he knows or cares much about us. And saying our system isn't the problem is just bananas at this stage.

[jbyrne]

But now, after years of controversial withdrawals and miscommunications and accusations that Trap is lazy in between international meet-ups, it transpires Trap hasn't been in contact with the senior players (bar Dunne when the retirements situation became critical) nor had they with him. This isn't right and it has tipped Trap's score into the half-empty glass as far as I'm concerned.

I'm tired of it and I think the evidence is mounting that our senior team is being mismanaged.

maybe he wanted nature to take its course and realised that maybe we need to move on from a 33 year old damien duff and a 36 year old shay given. i am not saying the squad is better without them but would they REALLY have been happy with reduced roles within future squads?

if players are inclined to want to retire then they should do so. its far from ideal that a manager should be expected to try to talk them out of it.

duffer is in super form at the moment but look back at the last two years and givens form has been poorish i am afraid.

[Carrigaline]

he has a track record of playing players in unsuitable roles (Cox and Keogh as midfielders for example, or McCarthy against Uruguay).
Last season at least, Cox played mostly on the wing for West Brom. As for Keogh, it's only since he moved to Millwall that he has been played solely as a striker, when he got called up for us, he played quite a lot on the wing at Wolves.

I know our Euro campaign was a disaster, but there is a massive agenda of mistruths being thrown at Trap. After the Italy game (I think), Ken Early posted a tweet saying that McGeady was statistically the most wasteful player on our team that day. I don't know what statistics he was looking at, but the official ones had McGeady as being the player who completed the most passes. What was most frustrating was that Early's comment was picked up on by Daniel McDonnell of the Indo, who then regurgitated it without checking the source. I find it incredibly frustrating that there is an element in the media that is out there not only to attack Trap, but to also attack certain players (McGeady being one of them). These are usually the same people who are demanding whatever flavour of the week be called up (Pilkington, Brady, Hoolahan, etc.).

[Murfinator]

Duff and Given are rational, grounded individuals with two of the most level heads of their shoulders that any of our internationals have. I think its naive and a bit disrespectful to them to say that Trap whispering encouragement to them would have swayed their decision. Both have been automatic starters under him and highlighted as key players repeatedly by him, they should not and would not have needed any further assurances of the esteem Trap holds them in.

[geysir]

I'd agree with that, it's naive to think that Trap's supposed lack of communication was a contributing factor to prevent 2 senior players, he was loyal to the end with, from carrying out their considered wish to retire.

[Diarmo]

Last season at least, Cox played mostly on the wing for West Brom. As for Keogh, it's only since he moved to Millwall that he has been played solely as a striker, when he got called up for us, he played quite a lot on the wing at Wolves.

I know our Euro campaign was a disaster, but there is a massive agenda of mistruths being thrown at Trap. After the Italy game (I think), Ken Early posted a tweet saying that McGeady was statistically the most wasteful player on our team that day. I don't know what statistics he was looking at, but the official ones had McGeady as being the player who completed the most passes. What was most frustrating was that Early's comment was picked up on by Daniel McDonnell of the Indo, who then regurgitated it without checking the source. I find it incredibly frustrating that there is an element in the media that is out there not only to attack Trap, but to also attack certain players (McGeady being one of them). These are usually the same people who are demanding whatever flavour of the week be called up (Pilkington, Brady, Hoolahan, etc.).

McDonnell is a hack.

From the beginning, I've always been pro-Trap. The football may have been poor, but it's a results business and he was definitely getting us the results. I've sat through too many insipid Kerr managed performances, as well as the farce of the Stan era.

The interesting thing about Trap is that despite qualifying for Euro 2012, he has become quite unpopular. If we're not in the top 2 of the group going into the Winter break, I can see a lot of people calling for his resignation.

Which brings up another point. I really hope it's not the case, but if this campaign turns out to be a disaster, wouldn't it be best to let Trap go and get a new manager who can use the remaining competitive matches to build a decent side for Euro 2016, which, by the way, we should qualify for easily as its now a 24 team tournament. If that's the case, the older brigade, Robbie etc. would be quietly ushered away in order to bring through young talent.
It's worth pointing out that the saviour Hoolahan will be 34 by Euro 2016.

By the by, I do think the Play-Offs are possible from this group. The matches against Sweden are key, in my opinion. We'll need to take at least 4 points from them. But, I can see this group giving us a few Armenia-style mad results. We shall see.

[Stuttgart88]

The Indo hasn't had anything positive to say about the Ireland team for years.

I'm not saying that the players should have been open to persuasion by Trap, but I think it comes out badly that Trap was cuaght by surprise by these announcements. He should have been in touch with the players to clarify their intentions, or to make his own intentions known. Texts and unanswered texts is not the way to communicate these things - on both sides.

This is just one smallish piece in what has in overall terms been a farce of a communications regime. There have been far too many surprise withdrawals, unfamiliarity with players' whereabouts or injury status and far too many incidents of "well I texted him to see if he can play but I haven't heard back yet". It's Sunday league stuff.

I also agree that this group is everything to play for. In fact I'm glad that there's an "orthodox" country like Austria in the mix (another country of superior stature that we have consistently outperformed in the last 20 years probably, just btw...). I'm really excited by the prospect of taking on the Swedes and Austrians and there can be little argument that Trap's methods have proved consistent at grinding out maximum points from the tricky lower seeds.

[paul_oshea]

I'm not saying that the players should have been open to persuasion by Trap, but I think it comes out badly that Trap was cuaght by surprise by these announcements. He should have been in touch with the players to clarify their intentions, or to make his own intentions known. Texts and unanswered texts is not the way to communicate these things - on both sides.


According to this he did speak with Trap though, who tried to persuade on more than one occassion:

http://extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/8824/

And he clearly has been in touch with Dunne also.

[Stuttgart88]

There's no mention of Trap in that article. Was it the right link?

He spoke to Dunne only after Given and Duff had seemingly caught him unawares. That's how I understand it anyway. I was away for two weeks so didn't follow the media very closely, but Duff's comments from a month ago seemed to indicate that he had no plans to retire and would play at any level as long as he could. Even if I got that boit wrong, it's not the point. Communication with the gaffer is the issue and I'm pretty sure Trap was taken by surprise.

[p2011]

Duff on that radio interview sounds like he was anything but definite about retiring over recent months. He says his boss was great about it, but that's what a player is going to say, isn't it? A player is going to be diplomatic.

When asked if Trap still gets through to the players, he says that he hopes so... which is a diplomatic response too and is less than a 100% endorsement.

[p2011]

... but look back at the last two years and givens form has been poorish i am afraid.

Really? Okay he had a poor tournament where he probably wasn't fit, but apart from that he's been saving our backside like he has been doing since he started playing for us. Saying he has been "poorish" over the last two years (as opposed to 9 days in summer 2012) is off the mark in my opinion. He switched off and let in two soft goals (Armenia, Estonia) in ties that were effectively over as contests, but when there was something to play for he was great.

[jbyrne]

Really? Okay he had a poor tournament where he probably wasn't fit, but apart from that he's been saving our backside like he has been doing since he started playing for us. Saying he has been "poorish" over the last two years (as opposed to 9 days in summer 2012) is off the mark in my opinion. He switched off and let in two soft goals (Armenia, Estonia) in ties that were effectively over as contests, but when there was something to play for he was great.

sorry, dont agree. he was great against russia away but poor in the home game for example.
no goalkeeper on top form would "switch off"

[pineapple stu]

There's a difference between being on top form and being poorish.

Given the last two years was definitely more at the top form end of things than the poorish end.

[DannyInvincible]

When asked if Trap still gets through to the players, he says that he hopes so... which is a diplomatic response too and is less than a 100% endorsement.

Haven't had a chance to listen to the actual interview itself yet but given Duff's experience of Trap's relationship with the players, it's not really an answer at all, is it? I'd be slightly worried by that response.

[Stuttgart88]

There's a difference between being on top form and being poorish.Not when I was playing.

[jbyrne]

There's a difference between being on top form and being poorish.

Given the last two years was definitely more at the top form end of things than the poorish end.

before the last two years Id be hard pressed to think of a goal that Given could be considered at fault for but in the last qualifying campaign there were a few. Not the performance of a gk on top form

[geysir]

There's no mention of Trap in that article. Was it the right link?

He spoke to Dunne only after Given and Duff had seemingly caught him unawares. That's how I understand it anyway. I was away for two weeks so didn't follow the media very closely, but Duff's comments from a month ago seemed to indicate that he had no plans to retire and would play at any level as long as he could. Even if I got that boit wrong, it's not the point. Communication with the gaffer is the issue and I'm pretty sure Trap was taken by surprise.

That was a link coming from Paul's 'grey matter area', the interview with Duff can be heard on Off the Ball's listen back section
http://www.newstalk.ie/programmes/all/offtheball/listen-back/
Thursday part 3

You can listen to it for yourself, Duff says his comments in the Lebanon of 'playing until he drops' were lost in translation. He had been thinking to retire since before the Euros
Trap had been communicating with him many times, particularly over last few weeks trying to convince him to stay and had him wavering, that Trap couldn't have done anymore to convince him and he feels if anything he is letting Trap down.

When asked about Trap's ability to respond to him, he said I can only speak for myself - I respond to him and you'd hope that the rest of the players do.
He referred to the draw in Serbia, as a good omen, the players responding to the manager.

[Stuttgart88]

What time is kick off on Friday (our time)?

[SwanVsDalton]

What time is kick off on Friday (our time)?

5pm. Will be sneaking out of work early.

[DannyInvincible]

Are Sky broadcasting the game or just RTÉ? I have to go to Bolton on Friday for a wedding weekend, so I'm hoping I'll be able to find somewhere there showing the game. This is probably my best bet: http://www.boltonirish.co.uk/whatson.html

The earlier start should suit me better, to be honest. Hadn't realised kick-off was at 5PM.~

Edit: Hehe, just rang them and asked would they be showing the Ireland-Kazakhstan game on Friday evening; the kind lady has assured me that, "yes, indeed, all Gaelic games are shown live on the big screen".

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Sky are show Mick O'Neill's Green and White Army in Russia instead.

[Littlest Hobo]

Anyway, back to the thread at hand. Here's my team for Friday...

Westwood

Wilson O Shea O Dea O Brien

Mc Geady Whelan Mc Carthy Mc Clean

Long Walters

Reckon we'd have a chance with this team.

I'd drop Kelly, Ward Keane and Doyle. Knowing Trapp, I think he'll play these 4.

RIO here we come.

[Murfinator]

Anyway, back to the thread at hand. Here's my team for Friday...

Westwood

Wilson O Shea O Dea O Brien

Mc Geady Whelan Mc Carthy Mc Clean

Long Walters

Reckon we'd have a chance with this team.

I'd drop Kelly, Ward Keane and Doyle. Knowing Trapp, I think he'll play these 4.

RIO here we come.

He'll play Ward because it'd be a minor miracle if Wilson actually didn't withdraw with a mystery illness for a change. Kelly is a fine player at RB and deserves to start. I hope he drops Doyle but dropping Keane who was our top scorer last campaign would be foolish. Hoping for Keane + Long but wouldn't object to Walters.

With Gibsons withdrawal, Duffs retirement, Andrews suspension and Hunts continued omission the midfield picks itself.

[DannyInvincible]

it'd be a minor miracle if Wilson actually didn't withdraw with a mystery illness for a change.

Still avoiding a response to this post, I see: http://foot.ie/threads/152510-Should-McCarthy-Walters-Wilson-and-Gibson-be-given-a-future-callup-or-ignored?p=1618307&viewfull=1#post1618307


Wasn't in the Euro's Squad
Wasn't in the Czech Squad
Wasn't in the Estonian Squad
Wasn't in the Andorra/ Armenia Squad
Was named in the original 32 man squad for Russia/ Slovakia but didn't make the cut.
Was in the Croatia squad. Travelled over, Irish docs declared him unfit and was sent home
He did miss the Carling Cup games against Scotland & Northern Ireland(that's one pull out)
He was in the Macedonia/Uruguay squad but didn't play. Can't find any mention of him pulling out or being replaced. Just seems he didn't play.
Was in the Carling Cup Squad v Wales and played.

[zero]

this is a 5pm kick off right?

am in london and it appears this game is RTE 2 only. will have to duck out of work early...

[boovidge]

Is this game definitely not being shown in the UK?

[Noelys Guitar]

Going by the latest reports the team might well be
Westwood
Kelly JOS ODEA Ward
McGeady McCArthy Whelan Cox
Keane Walters

[DannyInvincible]

Going by the latest reports the team might well be
Westwood
Kelly JOS ODEA Ward
McGeady McCArthy Whelan Cox
Keane Walters

Where are you getting this? This story from RTÉ suggests McClean may well start: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0903/336029-trap-hints-mcclean-could-start-against-kazakhstan/

[Junior]

Is this game definitely not being shown in the UK?

I cant find it anywhere. Looks a like a dodgy stream so, or a pub with RTE...

[Acornvilla]

If you fiddle around with your IP, you should be able to watch it on RTE.ie, I presume it will be streamed live on their website.

[Noelys Guitar]

Where are you getting this? This story from RTÉ suggests McClean may well start: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0903/336029-trap-hints-mcclean-could-start-against-kazakhstan/
He has said stuff like this before DI. Particulary a few days away from the game. And then reverted to picking players he trusts. You would think McClean would be one of the first names on the team sheet with Duff gone. The press conference he gave yesterday suggested he would go 442 and not 433 as RTE are implying. We shall see.

[DannyInvincible]

I find RTÉ also tend to put their own twist on Trap's ambiguity, most likely to stir talking points and engender greater interest in the lead-up to games they're broadcasting.

[zero]

If you fiddle around with your IP, you should be able to watch it on RTE.ie, I presume it will be streamed live on their website.

yeah it's possible to get that to work but it's too slow for live streaming i've found. rte streams are a bit unreliable generally (as those who tried to watch katie taylor during the olympics online will have found), and trying to route them through an irish proxy compounds that.

it'll be up on other streams but it seems we're going to try to sneak out of work early.

[boovidge]

If you fiddle around with your IP, you should be able to watch it on RTE.ie, I presume it will be streamed live on their website.

Im using mobile broadband at the moment so I can't stream. Best chance is possibly Premier Sports making a late grab for the rights, otherwise I might have to go up to London to watch it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It'll be on in any pub with Setanta or any real Irish pub worthy of the name. And doesn't clash with any other fixtures of note.

Or online...

[DannyInvincible]

Are Setanta broadcasting it?

[zero]

Are Setanta broadcasting it?

i don't think so. it's not on sky as they have northern ireland on at 6.

as far as i can tell, as it stands, it's rte2 only.

[Stuttgart88]

My local, The Corrib Rest in London NW6 (Queen's Park tube) is definitely showing it but I might watch it in The Sheephaven in Mornington Crescent as I'm in the area just beforehand.

[Noelys Guitar]

Didn't realise the match was being played on Astroturf.