Where to from now....

[gastric]

We just got a reality check like we have never got before. With the WC qualifying to start in the Autumn, what do we do? Do we continue with the same tactics and players or do we look to the future and use this qualifying tournament to blood younger players with our eyes on the next Euro Campaign. Personally, I think this is the way to go and possibly a change of management might help this too.

[backstothewall]

We might have to make a change in goal. Shay hinting quite heavily about international retirement to the BBC

[irishultra]

We won't qualify for 2014, I'm not even getting my hopes up Germany are Germany, and Sweden are just a level above us. Prepare for 2016 and if we do well in 2014 qualification then happy days.

Given is gone imo, and prob a few others.

[backstothewall]

In fairness Sweden looked almost as bad as us against Ukraine

[MeathDrog]

Include Clark, McCarthy, Coleman, McClean. We do have quite an old team.

[boysingreen]

We had the oldest team in the tournament, and it showed in all the wrong ways.

Time for the changing of the guard. The more changes the better.

[magicman]

I think this is a really important time for us now. Trap is facing into what will be his last ever chance at a WC so he won't be interested in setting up for Euro 16. I think it is time for Robbie to stand down as captain at least. I'm not one of the bash Robbie brigade but he is pushing on, we have 4 strikers playing in the EPL so he cannot be guaranteed to start every game.

I wouldn't envisage wholesale changes for our next qualifier. But then what sort of formation are we going to go with? If it is 4-4-2 then the players who have to be brought in are Wilson and McCarthy, at least. I'm not sold on Coleman as a full back yet but O'Shea isn't one either. I'd rather see JoSH challenging for the CB spots and Coleman push on for RB.

I'd like McCarthy to replace Whelan and let Andrews and Gibson fight out for the second spot. McGeady, McClean, Pilkington, Duff, Brady to fight it out for the wings and the above mentioned strikers for the other two spots.


What I would like to see is a switch to 4-2-3-1. With a back line of Coleman & Wilson/Clark Full backs, Wilson/Sledge/Dunne/JOSH/Clark in centre back.
Two sitting players in McCarhy and Gibson with Andrews playing in the advanced midfield role he does for WBA.

On the wings I'd like to see McGeady and one of Brady, Walters or Pilkington. (McClean will make the left his own but he is still raw so I'd keep him for impact at the moment.)
Lone Striker role I'd want Long in it.

Again, that is still most of Trap's current squad, and it is a slight shift to the future.

[irishultra]

Seriously tho will Trap last 2 years. I hate saying that but its a realistic concern

[eekers]

The FAI can't afford to sack Trap.
Trap is completely oblivious to any criticism in Ireland and thinks the players in his squad are as good as it gets.
Its just gonna be more of the same for the next 2 years.

[irishultra]

8 years ago, Russia finished bottom of their Euro 2004 group........by my reckoning by 2018, we will be an awesome(but erratic) attacking unit who many consider dark horses for the world cup.

[Kingdom]

8 years ago, Russia finished bottom of their Euro 2004 group........by my reckoning by 2018, we will be an awesome(but erratic) attacking unit who many consider dark horses for the world cup.

If we could maintain recent qualifying standards until then, then believe it or not I don't think you're too far off the truth there.

[SkStu]

Where to from now?

I'm planning a trip back to catch the open top parade, civic reception and Fields of Athenry rendition by happy fans and chuckling players...

[mark12345]

The FAI can't afford to sack Trap.
Trap is completely oblivious to any criticism in Ireland and thinks the players in his squad are as good as it gets.
Its just gonna be more of the same for the next 2 years.

Let's call a spade a spade regarding Trap. I'm not going to pretend that we would have gotten anything out of that game today because we just can't pass the ball. It was worse than embarassing and I don't know what commentators / analysts most people heard but I was listening to Michael Ballack describe Ireland as inferior players (and he was being kind). Trap couldn't do anything about the players in his team because they're woegous most of them.

But Trap must shoulder some amount of blame for sticking with clearly inferior players - Whelan, Andrews, O'Shea, Ward, (Robbie as a striker instead of midfield). He is not blameless and if I had a penny for every time I got sick of hearing about Trap's system during the qualifiers I'd be a rich man. Some system eh?

[Yard of Pace]

The manager is gone senile. It's not a great start.

[tricky_colour]

We need to get rid of Trap now, get Roy Keane in!!

[eekers]

If numerous LOI teams and the likes of Wigan and Swansea can pass the ball around, then why can't the Irish national team.
Trap doesn't want them to. He based the Irish team on Greece '04 whilst the rest of football has moved on.

[NeverFeltBetter]

He does have an amazing managerial pedigree...

[Kingdom]

Pick a system that works and find 22 players that can fit it, or pick your best players and get a system to suit them. We did neither.
Discount the old brigade - it is time to move on.
Identify the four best centre halves, and the best two up and coming centre halves. Repeat for all positions. Break down all the old barriers - fresh start for everyone. Trap give the loyalty to those who got us to Poland and it didn't work.

A real alternative needs to be found at full back, centre midfield, and the off-the-striker role.

The guts of a decent squad is there:
Gk: Westwood, Randolph, Henderson
Rb: Kelly, Foley,
Lb: Cunningham, Ward, White
Cb: O'Dea, St Ledger, Duffy, Wilson, Clark

RM: McGeady, Coleman
LM: McClean, Brady
Cm: McCarthy, Gibson, Fahey, Meyler, McCann, Hendrick

Am: Carruthers

FW: Long, Walters, Doyle, Mason, Best

That group of players could pass a football.

[Crosby87]

I wonder if Trap went home and thought about it for a week and decided to step down, would they make Tardelli the Manager? It just seems like he knows the game but would be younger and perhaps more flexible.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think evolution is needed now certainly, however I would rather not have a baby/bathwater scenario, as, I think the fact that so few of our squad had graced a major finals before really told in the last days. When Trap's system, resplendent in its lack of any flexibility saw us 3-0 behind and our tournament effectively over after 48 minutes, these players were at a loss.

In the days after the Croatia game, none of them said, ''we can play better, we will play better, we are better than we have shown'' or words to that effect and you could see it during the anthems tonight I thought, they looked resigned to a hiding, and they got it.

I wouldn't be in favour of writing off the next campaign to blood a new and untested bunch, far better try to qualify again, (and I believe we can) and by that time have bedded in the better new players along with some new formations/systems/setup options added to our armory also. But keep certain key older heads around the place, so we hopefully never travel this path again.

If Trap is the man to deliver such a scenario is the big variable.

[tricky_colour]

Where to from now?

I'm planning a trip back to catch the open top parade, civic reception and Fields of Athenry rendition by happy fans and chuckling players...

Will they be parading this?

http://api.ning.com/files/QSKshKWSwKrZEhdTrAdKi-Y8mvMW1BNQwjs-mjhJMVBwcend6UfGTNzQQdUgFphgqPapZbk8PxRs-us4Uc4QBg__/Wooden_spoon_award_79T8663_0.jpg

(Sorry!!)

[tricky_colour]

He does have an amazing managerial pedigree...

Is that supposed to be a joke?

I have just had a look at his 'pedigree' and it does not read very well apart from a brief spell at Benifca.

"However, during his 20 games at the helm, Stuttgart produced poor results. Denmark internationals Jon Dahl Tomasson and Jesper Grønkjær openly criticized their coach, claiming he was afraid to attack."

Sounds fairly credible!!

[tommy_c12000]

In an ideal world the FAI would not have renewed Trap's contract and would have made him earn it with a decent Euro showing. We are now stuck with him for another 2 years as the FAI can't afford the pay out.

On paper everything looks good. We are in the Top 20 in the world for the first time in years and we qualified for our second European Championships.

However, the reality of our situation is a lot different. The "loyalty" that Trap showed which was apparently central to us qualifying for the championships was essentially the undoing of our performance in this tournament. We were haunted to qualify. Absolutely haunted.

Our team was stale going into this tournament. Every player knew that their position was safe. It is far harder to play yourself out of the team than play yourself into it. Given was coming back from injury and has uncharacteristically left in a number of soft goals for Villa this season. O'Shea has had his worst season in the Premiership. Dunne has just come back from a shoulder injury and was evidently rusty. St Ledger wasn't even 1st choice for Leicester City for a large part of the season. Ward is and always will be a liability at left back. Duff has below par for the past few months and looked tired and haggard. McGeady is inconsistent. Andrews isn't good enough for international football. Whelan had a decent season with Stoke and probably merited a start. Keane has moved to a part-time league and is at the tail end of his career. Doyle should not have been anywhere near the pitch, he has had a season to forget.

A tournament is a played over a limited time frame and there is no time for off form players to "play" themselves into form. If Trap had taken time out to experiment a bit more it could have been a different story. Kelly has actually been very good for Fulham this season. Wilson for Stoke has been also very solid at left full. McCarthy has been superb for Wigan in the last 1/3 of the season and there is no doubt in my mind that he would have gone to Poland if he felt he had a chance of playing. Gibson as well deserves more respect than Trap shows him. While I wouldn't have started McClean I would have brought him on for Duff V Croatia and switched him with McGeady. Long had a good end to the season and should have started.

3 decisions why I think Trap's position would be untenable if the FAI had the money to get rid of him:
- Cox on for McGeady on the left wing V Croatia. WTF? Inexplicable. I genuinely felt sorry for Cox out there. It wasn't his fault to have been place in such a position.
- Cox in midfield V Spain. Don't get me started.
- Green on in front of Gibson V Spain. The actions of a mad man.

In the short term, it has been great. We luckily qualified for a tournament. However, it was just short term gain. On the back of being found out badly at the Euro's and being absoultely humiliated, the long term future is not looking bright for Ireland with this mad man in charge, and ultimately this man could set us back a number of years.

Trap Out.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Is that supposed to be a joke?

I have just had a look at his 'pedigree' and it does not read very well apart from a brief spell at Benifca.

"However, during his 20 games at the helm, Stuttgart produced poor results. Denmark internationals Jon Dahl Tomasson and Jesper Grønkjær openly criticized their coach, claiming he was afraid to attack."

Sounds fairly credible!!

That was a sarcastic reference to Roy Keane.

As for Trapattoni, it's his club record in Italy that marks him out, not one season at Benfica.

[magicman]

Have a question for ye: I'm not saying this would be the right way to go or anything but if we were to get rid of Trap everyone knows money would be close to non existent. What are people's opinions of the following:

Appointing Mick McCarthy. Tell him that it is a very low paying job for the next two years as we are broke but if he brings the team on, replaces the old guard and performs well then he would be given a decent contract to take him to Euro 16.

Asking Marco to stay on, tell him that we haven't the resources to improve whatever contract he may be on but offer the same terms as above.

Or what about Brian Kerr? After that we'd be looking at (shudder.....) O'Leary, Keane and the likes.

Personally I would give it to McCarthy. When he talks about Ireland you can tell he has a real passion for the team. Only a couple of the players were around in 2002 and those that were will be starting to leave now.

[CraftyToePoke]

Appointing Mick McCarthy. Or what about Brian Kerr? After that we'd be looking at (shudder.....) O'Leary, Keane and the likes.


Or Harry Redknapp is looking for a job, bet he would like to show England what they could have had. Liverpool must be kicking themselves. Imagine Harry during Amhrán na bhFiann, I'd be there for that alone.

[rebelmusic]

Interestingling if you remember the Uruguay match when Tardelli was in charge, Ireland playing the best passing game we have in the last 4 years. Fair enough we lost, but against the 2nd best team in the world (apparently).

Given was for me the biggest dissapointment last night. In both games the early goals killed the team spirit and frankly Given in his prime wouldn't have broken a sweat to save them. The second goal last night was mainly his fault as well imo, rule no 1 for a goalkeeper, don't parry the ball into the middle of the box.

What scares me the most is our backline. We actually have a lot of quality available for the midfield, wings and forward positions. But we don't have a one decent CB ready to come in. Duffy will be i believe, but he's a couple of years away. And although i like O'Dea, i think he's already reached his peak.

For full back positions i actually find it hilarious how many people were ranting about how disgraceful it was that Killer was starting and Ward wasnt getting his game. Killer would have been a better option in the end sadly enough. All we can do is pray that Cunningham really comes through.

What made the irish teams great historically was we always had a world class players in midfield...Whelan and Andrews simply don't cut it. McCarthy/Gibson would be such a better option it's frightening.

[mypost]

Let's call a spade a spade regarding Trap. I'm not going to pretend that we would have gotten anything out of that game today because we just can't pass the ball. It was worse than embarassing and I don't know what commentators / analysts most people heard but I was listening to Michael Ballack describe Ireland as inferior players (and he was being kind). Trap couldn't do anything about the players in his team because they're woegous most of them.

But Trap must shoulder some amount of blame for sticking with clearly inferior players - Whelan, Andrews, O'Shea, Ward, (Robbie as a striker instead of midfield). He is not blameless and if I had a penny for every time I got sick of hearing about Trap's system during the qualifiers I'd be a rich man. Some system eh?

Since when was Ballack an expert on Irish players?

Our players are inferior, a blind man can tell you that. But most teams players are inferior in relation to what Spain have. They're not champions for nothing.

By rights, that squad shouldn't be playing at this level. The players are not good enough for it. The fact we are there is down to Trap, and his system. We paid him enormous amounts of cash so we got the chance to compete at this level. It will stand to the players that remain as we move on over the following campaigns.

[Colbert Report]

4-2-3-1

Given
Coleman-Dunne-Duffy-Wilson
McCarthy-Gibson
McGeady-Ireland-McLean
Long

I hope Given doesn't retire, he still has four years left on his Villa contract if I'm not mistaken, so I reckon he could last another qualifying campaign at least. Two bad games where he's obviously carrying an injury doesn't make him a bad player overnight.

Coleman looks great for Everton but we'll find out if he can actually play right back or if he is indeed better further up the pitch. If he doesn't cut it, I can't see him getting into the team ahead of McGeady or McClean, but we'll see I guess. O'Shea is over the hill, Ferguson rarely gets rid of a player before he's past it and O'Shea is no exception. I'm not sure how many other options we have here really, open to suggestions.

Dunne - he's immense, our next captain, I hope and pray that he doesn't retire. I don't think that he will, I reckon he's good for one more campaign.

Duffy - I'll admit, I know almost nothing about him but he seems to be highly regarded, hopefully he can break into the team. St. Ledger is a good honest player but let's be honest, as one guy on here said today, he can't get a game in the Championship. 'Nuff said, this is international football.

Wilson - best young player we have, I still can't figure out what he did to get Trap to hate him so much. He plays left back week in and week out for Stoke so I don't see any reason he can't do it for us. Great passer of the ball and very versatile also.

[Closed Account 2]

Pick a system that works and find 22 players that can fit it, or pick your best players and get a system to suit them. We did neither.
Discount the old brigade - it is time to move on.
Identify the four best centre halves, and the best two up and coming centre halves. Repeat for all positions. Break down all the old barriers - fresh start for everyone. Trap give the loyalty to those who got us to Poland and it didn't work.

A real alternative needs to be found at full back, centre midfield, and the off-the-striker role.

The guts of a decent squad is there:
Gk: Westwood, Randolph, Henderson
Rb: Kelly, Foley,
Lb: Cunningham, Ward, White
Cb: O'Dea, St Ledger, Duffy, Wilson

RM: McGeady, Coleman
LM: McClean, Brady
Cm: McCarthy, Gibson, Fahey, Meyler, McCann, Hendrick

Am: Carruthers

FW: Long, Walters, Doyle, Mason,

That group of players could pass a football.

I'd add Ciaran Clark and maybe Best and Scannell to that

[Kingdom]

I'd add Ciaran Clark and maybe Best and Scannell to that

I had Clark in at cb, but took him out to put in at dm, but then forgot. I'd agree with Best. Scannell will disappoint us eventually I think

[PatJR]

A fair few have commented on players that should be "discarded" and included Andrews. That is incredibly unfair as I think he has two fine games and the only Irish player to come out with any credit. Set up in a midfield three with a couple of better ball players he would be even better.

Also there is some fantasy land suff going on naming players like Carruthers\White\Meyler\Hendrick - these lads are going to have to do more at club level.

Lets just hope that Trap reflects on what he has seen at 2012 and makes some changes. We play a very static 4-4-2, even at home against lesser teams our full backs don't push on for example.

[dong]

I have never seen so many international players so afraid to pass or receive a pass.
UCD would have made a better fist of it. I ****ing kid you not.

[Closed Account 2]

A fair few have commented on players that should be "discarded" and included Andrews. That is incredibly unfair as I think he has two fine games and the only Irish player to come out with any credit. Set up in a midfield three with a couple of better ball players he would be even better


I agree, if all out players had put in the same level of effort as Andrews we might have picked up a point against Croatia, and we certainly wouldnt have shipped 7 goals in the two games.

[Real ale Madrid]

Also there is some fantasy land suff going on naming players like Carruthers\White\Meyler\Hendrick - these lads are going to have to do more at club level.


Yeah - they are going to have to work hard over the next season or two to match Paul Green's glittering career in England's lower divisions.

[PatJR]

Yeah - they are going to have to work hard over the next season or two to match Paul Green's glittering career in England's lower divisions.

Nice glib comment but where did I say Green is the answer? And where the logic is saying Green is out but we want Villa\Sunderland reserve players and two lads who have never played above Championship level. In my opinion to oust players like Whelan\Andrews\Hunt from the squad they will have to do more.

[Real ale Madrid]

Nice glib comment but where did I say Green is the answer? And where the logic is saying Green is out but we want Villa\Sunderland reserve players and two lads who have never played above Championship level. In my opinion to oust players like Whelan\Andrews\Hunt from the squad they will have to do more.

Chillax the kacks - I was being sarcastic not Glib.

Jebus.

[PatJR]

Chillax the kacks - I was being sarcastic not Glib.

Jebus.

Fair enough. My high horse is back in the stable.

[mark12345]

Since when was Ballack an expert on Irish players?

What kind of expert do you need to be to know that a fish out of water is just that?

And you fall into the trap of comparing Spain to Ireland. Just compare the Irish players to the standard they should be judged by. And for reference use your own job as a yardstick. You are expected to do certain basic things by your boss. Right? And if you don't you're out the door.

Many of the Irish players can't do the basic things.

[mark12345]

I agree, if all out players had put in the same level of effort as Andrews we might have picked up a point against Croatia, and we certainly wouldnt have shipped 7 goals in the two games.

People keep talking about effort. Effort is a given. You would expect that of any player who pulled on a green shirt. It's the ability to play proper football using the correct technique that is needed.

[the bear]

What kind of expert do you need to be to know that a fish out of water is just that?

And you fall into the trap of comparing Spain to Ireland. Just compare the Irish players to the standard they should be judged by. And for reference use your own job as a yardstick. You are expected to do certain basic things by your boss. Right? And if you don't you're out the door.

Many of the Irish players can't do the basic things.

your assuming mypost doesnt work in a bank?

[Closed Account 2]

But the effort hasn't been there at all in the last two games, it seems it's no longer a given. No one closed down Modric at all on Sunday, again last night hardly any pressure on Xavi, Silva, Iniesta etc (often even in our own penalty area). In both games (with maybe the exception of the last 5 mins in Poznan) no players have really made runs into space, no players have presented themselves as an option for the man in posession. The players have shrunk it seems all is not well in the camp the belief and confidence has gone and they seem to have given up the fight.

I'm not saying we'd have have won or maybe even draw either game with more effort, but I dont think we'd have been outclassed in such a way. Ignore the fact we were playing Spain last night, any top 20 European team would have scored those goals, it wasn't a question of being outclassed as it was basic errors, sloppyness that caused our undoing in both games. Normally we go to tournaments and put out a team that plays to a level above the sum of it's parts, but so far we've been well below the sum of our parts (which arent even that great).

[ifk101]

Get rid of St Ledger from the team. Green should never be included in a squad again. No point picking Cox if the gameplan is kick the ball long and high.

Don't see Trapattoni changing his tactics (not even for the WC qualifiers) but if I got to pick the team for Italy, I go as follows;

Given
Kelly, O'Shea, Dunne, Ward;
Whelan
McGeady, Andrews, Gibson, Duff;
Long.

[the bear]

Get rid of St Ledger from the team. Green should never be included in a squad again. No point picking Cox if the gameplan is kick the ball long and high.

Don't see Trapattoni changing his tactics (not even for the WC qualifiers) but if I got to pick the team for Italy, I go as follows;

Given
Kelly, O'Shea, Dunne, Ward;
Whelan
McGeady, Andrews, Gibson, Duff;
Long.

I'd drop oshea before st.ledger. What would the doc say if he read that. There must be no wifi in the team hotel.

[nigel-harps1954]

Roy Keane for manager. At least he'll take no sh**e and will get rid of the dead wood from the team.

[barney]

Roy Keane for manager. At least he'll take no sh**e and will get rid of the dead wood from the team.

I'd rather Roy Walker. Keane isn't the answer and there is nothing in his track record to suggest that he is - quite the contrary. There is no point just "not taking any sh!t" if you do it the wrong way and everything I've seen says Keane does it the wrong way.

I'd stick with Trap but if we were to look elsewhere then I'd be looking at McCarthy, Hughton or (and it's probably pie in the sky) Harry Redknapp.

[nigel-harps1954]

I'd rather Roy Walker. Keane isn't the answer and there is nothing in his track record to suggest that he is - quite the contrary. There is no point just "not taking any sh!t" if you do it the wrong way and everything I've seen says Keane does it the wrong way.

I'd stick with Trap but if we were to look elsewhere then I'd be looking at McCarthy, Hughton or (and it's probably pie in the sky) Harry Redknapp.

I'd stay well away from someone who has no interest in at very least looking at our own national league and Harry Redknapp is most certainly not the answer to our problems. I'd have Roy Keane 50 times over before Harry Redknapp.

[barney]

I'd stay well away from someone who has no interest in at very least looking at our own national league and Harry Redknapp is most certainly not the answer to our problems. I'd have Roy Keane 50 times over before Harry Redknapp.

The national team manager's job is to get results - not develop the league. That's for the FAI to do. There is nobody I've seen in the LOI that is better than we have in Poland at the minute. Redknapp is a liar and a chancer but he's a good manager that plays great football. We won't get him anyway - he'd probably cost too much.

[Closed Account 2]

I don't think we'd get him from Reading, maybe in two years we might, but Brian McDermott has said, in no uncertain terms, he'd love to manage Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd rather Roy Walker. Keane isn't the answer and there is nothing in his track record to suggest that he is - quite the contrary. There is no point just "not taking any sh!t" if you do it the wrong way and everything I've seen says Keane does it the wrong way.

I'd stick with Trap but if we were to look elsewhere then I'd be looking at McCarthy, Hughton or (and it's probably pie in the sky) Harry Redknapp.
Redknapp would cost far too much - he's got offers on the table from Dubai that he'd be mad to turn down for a hodge-podge of technically-deficient Irishmen.