Where to from now....

[geysir]

This is from Trap in the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/irish-news/trapattoni-to-take-lessons-of-dismal-euro-2012-into-the-quest-for-brazil-in-2014-3144637.htm

He said: "There are many names. We have three, four, five - McClean, for example, James McCarthy is another, and he would allow us to change the system.
"McCarthy plays in a different position. We have also Gibson, who is already here. We have others at this moment and we follow them.
"Now we can try another system because I need to know they can play in this system."

He has mentioned McCarthy in this manner before and looks like he is suggesting building the midfield around him and probably changing to a 5 man midfield. Also, it shows how relucatant he was to change the system during the last campaign.
I think if he can introduce this system it will also allow him to have the 4-4-2 system as a fall back so we are not so one dimensional.

A lone striker such as Long or Walters, with McCarthy behind and any two of Gibson/Whelan/Andrews holding with MacLean and McGeady/Coleman on the flanks might work. We need some ball players in the middle of the park.

What I've understood from Trap is that he sees McCarthy as an advanced midfielder, that he would have to change the system to allow James to function in that role. And that was the role he asked James to play against Uruguay(?).
But what I've observed from Martinez is that he plays McCarthy more in a holding role, I think Martinez sees McCarthy for what he is, a developing rounded midfielder.

[jbyrne]

until the powers that be, FAI and local authorities etc, start to take the provision of appropriate playing facilities in this country seriously we will continue to produce players far more comfortable with a non technical non passing game that will only ever bring us so far. most public pitches in this country are an absolute disgrace.

prime example.... the pitch I play on gets no grass cutting from mid october until mid march each season. the reason given is that resources need to be diverted elsewhere during the winter and the council cant afford to look after pitches all year round. unbelievably they then go and build us dressing rooms that are far far bigger and brasher than we will ever need at a cost of well over €500k while the pitch we play on is bumpy, bare through the middle with long grass in the wide areas for most of the year. re-grassing and regularly cutting the grass doesnt make the local papers but cutting a ribbon on a new club house facility in the run up to an election does!

until our players have the use of good pitches to train and play on we will always struggle.

why are we still waiting on the long mooted academy in abbotstown??

[paul_oshea]

What I've understood from Trap is that he sees McCarthy as an advanced midfielder, that he would have to change the system to allow James to function in that role. And that was the role he asked James to play against Uruguay(?).
But what I've observed from Martinez is that he plays McCarthy more in a holding role, I think Martinez sees McCarthy for what he is, a developing rounded midfielder.

I believe the same, he sees Mccarthy for some sort of player that he has not shown to be at all, and was not good enough in that position against Uruguay, and why would he be? THe realist/cynic in me saw that as an exercise in PR as much as anything else, a way of bluffing the public. Or perhaps Trap just doesn't watch enough in the main, or at the game, to see where Mccarthy has excelled.

Had he done so with other players he would have seen their positional sense - which you don't get on TV - was woeful and may have realised the need for change before we got to the Euros and were disgraced.

Good point JB, i also think weather plays a big part in this also, but of course if hte pitches were in better condition then the weather wouldn't effect them as much.

[ArdeeBhoy]

ArdeeBhoy, sure, you get good and bad and I'm not actually in the camp that believes there is a crisis (unless I can be convinced by proper reasoned argument that there is) but I think a poor showing at a tourney is as good a time as any to ask pertinent questions and examine where we can make improvements.

Aye, amen to that.

[Stuttgart88]

I've been reading the Irish Sports Council's website where it relates to the FAI and the FAI's own website wrt developmental issues.

The ISC allocates money based on objectives of increasing participation and making sure participation is diverse, rather than on some target of elite performance. The FAI seems to have met these goals.

The FAI's own website seems to have left few stones unturned and places a lot of emphasis on futsal as a technique development tool. Again, it seems to be saying all the right things.

I'm confused Ted.

[BonnieShels]

until the powers that be, FAI and local authorities etc, start to take the provision of appropriate playing facilities in this country seriously we will continue to produce players far more comfortable with a non technical non passing game that will only ever bring us so far. most public pitches in this country are an absolute disgrace.

prime example.... the pitch I play on gets no grass cutting from mid october until mid march each season. the reason given is that resources need to be diverted elsewhere during the winter and the council cant afford to look after pitches all year round. unbelievably they then go and build us dressing rooms that are far far bigger and brasher than we will ever need at a cost of well over €500k while the pitch we play on is bumpy, bare through the middle with long grass in the wide areas for most of the year. re-grassing and regularly cutting the grass doesnt make the local papers but cutting a ribbon on a new club house facility in the run up to an election does!

until our players have the use of good pitches to train and play on we will always struggle.

why are we still waiting on the long mooted academy in abbotstown??


As an employee of a local authority I can tell you that it is more than the Cllrs that are at fault here. There is zero joined up thinking in any aspect of public life in this country. I mean I only have to look at the cinder running track up the road from me that turns the lights off at 7pm in winter.

I went for a promotion with in my LA for a job with the sports partnership. (I was hoping to use it as a stepping stone for future plans)
Anyway, during the interview I was asked zero sports related questions. Not one. Nada. Zilch. Despite my involvement with Clontarf CC or the little bit I may do for Shels or my brothers' soccer team. or my interest in running and cycling. Nothing.

Administration seemed to be key. Infuriating bull plop.

[Stuttgart88]

If we were to set ourselves up like Germany who'd play the Ozil role? Ireland, Hoolahan or McGeady?

Who'd play the other roles? They don't really use width, but Long would find a role in our version and probably Doyle.

[Stuttgart88]

until the powers that be, FAI and local authorities etc, start to take the provision of appropriate playing facilities in this country seriously we will continue to produce players far more comfortable with a non technical non passing game that will only ever bring us so far. most public pitches in this country are an absolute disgrace.Geysir, what's the story with municipal facilities up your way?

I remember going outdoor swimming in a 50m pool Reykjavik, with a super gym complex overlooking it. Our mutual friend told me that almost every town has good municipal facilities.

[geysir]

Geysir, what's the story with municipal facilities up your way?

I remember going outdoor swimming in a 50m pool Reykjavik, with a super gym complex overlooking it. Our mutual friend told me that almost every town has good municipal facilities.
I never noticed those gyms when I'm at the pool, I can't say I'm a man for the gyms, I'm naturally tall, fit and handsome, I don't need them like some people do.

Football facilities in Iceland have improved in the last 10 years, especially with a number of full sized indoor pitches built by clubs. You just can't credit the difference that makes. Football use to be a 6 month thing, now schools/ clubs have access to those indoor facilities to play and train football all year round. The indoor pitch can be split into 2 pitches (across the main pitch) and is used from 9am to 12pm each day in the cold weather.
All clubs are member owned, the land is provided by the municipality in trust, facilities are built on the land by the clubs, financed by club members/municipality. They just take the bank loan, build it and the rest falls into place. The Municipality is mandated to offer financial support (50 to 60%) to help build sports facilities etc for the people that live there.
The clubs organise their own summer coaching courses, the FA also provides coaches and some finance for the courses to train coaches. The quality of the coaching has radically changed in the last 6 years, it use to be dire, nowadays there is a cohesive strategy to coach football which is applied methodically to most every coaching course in every club. The result of all this is a radical transformation in way the game is played here. Not that Iceland will be getting to any Finals but at least they are losing while playing the 'right type' of football :) Though the u17's will be playing at the Euro finals later this summer.

[Stuttgart88]

Rugby team loses 60-0. Cricket team loses 2 wickets in first 3 balls this morning. Our football team is starting to look good by comparison today.

It's weeks like this I wish I was Argentinian.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Argentina has a cricket team?

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not overly fussed about cricket but they've got great chicks, countyside, steak and I think they're just generally cool.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, my pal raves about there.

But you could say much the same about Polska...
:)

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, but Argentina are better at football and rugby, not to mention their great kit.

[ArdeeBhoy]

There is that. Though prefer their change kit(s)...

Prefer somewhere better at cricket;rugby less important!

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, but that really only leaves England.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Or S.Africa and Australia....

[Stuttgart88]

But they're not that good at football

[ArdeeBhoy]

Neither are we...

[Stuttgart88]

Yes but that's why at times I wish I was Argentinian. They are. That's the whole point.

[Crosby87]

You would have gotten kidnapped at gun point and sold on the sex- slave market long ago if you were from Argentina, Stutts. I think thats fairly obvious.

[Junior]

All u can eat meat buffets for around $2-3, I'm talking steak and the works plus Quilmes at 40p a bottle/glass - the place and people and football are just quality. Would be a great backup if you weren't Irish!!

[Stuttgart88]

You would have gotten kidnapped at gun point and sold on the sex- slave market long ago if you were from Argentina, Stutts. I think thats fairly obvious.Crozzer, I'll take me chances.

[Stuttgart88]

Richie Sadlier's take on things this morning (I added the emboldened bits as those I found most pertinent). Interesting.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/irish-news/were-up-the-creek-without-a-paddle-or-a-plan-3147501.html

If you were asked to devise and implement a strategy to identify and develop the best young football talent in Ireland, and you suggested anything like what is currently in operation, you would be laughed out of the room.

If your proposal for domestic football resembled the existing model of the Airtricity League, you would be met with the same response. You would never be asked for any football-related input ever again. It would be assumed, with some justification, that you had no understanding of the task assigned to you.

The senior international team has just equalled the worst performance by any country in the history of the European Championships. The domestic Premier Division is a club down following Monaghan United's withdrawal from the league last week, and the FAI's international high performance director has left for a post in India. There is no money there to make the necessary changes, but finances are not all that is lacking. A cohesive plan would be a start.

There is currently no national strategy of any kind for players under the age of 14 in Ireland, despite it being a critical stage in their development as footballers. Some leagues have representative squads for players aged 11 to 14, but it is entirely up to them if they do. Identification of elite players does not occur until they are 14, and even then they are only brought together once a week. Kids in the UK, for example, are training up to four nights a week with academies from the age of seven and eight. Ireland is also one of the few countries in Europe where there is no formal link between the top schoolboy academies and the top senior clubs.
So what about underage international level? Wim Koevermans was appointed international high performance director in September 2008, "to produce a consistent supply of better quality players for the senior international teams over the long term". He decided from the off that all underage international teams should play the same system in every game. It makes sense when you think about it. If all teams play the same way, then regardless of changes in coaching personnel or promotion to an age-group above their own, players are equipped to perform at their best. His vision was to play a 4-3-3 formation and nothing else.

At the same time, Giovanni Trapattoni was taking the reins of the senior team and adopted the strictest interpretation of a 4-4-2 system to be seen in a long time. As recently as last week, Marco Tardelli explained how he and Trapattoni evaluate players. Put simply, they are interested only in whether that player would suit their style of play. Unless they could see the player performing in their formation, he would be ignored. Koevermans' legacy will be that he prepared the youth internationals of Ireland to play in a way that prevents them from being selected for the senior team.
And what now for the senior team? The need for Trapattoni to adapt to the realities of modern international football is abundantly clear, but his willingness to embrace the necessary change is harder to detect and impossible to envisage.

Former Ireland international Mick Martin spoke on radio after last week's defeat to Italy about his role as scout for Trapattoni in the UK. I asked him what the situation was with Wes Hoolahan of Norwich City, one of the players mentioned as a possible contender for a call-up. He said he has never been sent to look at any individual player by Trapattoni, but was highly complimentary of Hoolahan. He went on to point out, however, that Hoolahan's position is to play in the hole behind a striker. Many would see that as a solution, but Martin saw that as the problem. Hoolahan

looks set to remain in the international wilderness a little longer, albeit while playing regularly in the Premier League.

And the domestic game? The majority of league clubs have neither the finances nor the vision to implement a long-term strategy for youth development. Requirements to do so under the FAI licensing process are seen as nothing more than box-ticking exercises. A lot of clubs limp from season to season focusing solely on staying afloat. The big Dublin derbies involving Shamrock Rovers and Shelbourne on Thursday and St Patrick's Athletic and Bohemians on Friday attracted a combined audience of 3,500 people. There are too many clubs in Dublin and not enough interest for any to be fully professional. Actually, the same could be said of the whole country.

So from childhood right the way through, the elite players of Ireland have it tough. The conversation about Ireland's performance in Poland should not be about the quality of the resources at Trapattoni's disposal but whether they were put to the correct use. If that review was extended to football all over Ireland, the same conclusion would be reached. Change is needed and it's needed now. But there's no sign that those in charge are capable of delivering it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Reasonable article, but apart from calling for change don't see any solid proposals.

Though I firmly believe those running Irish soccer are incapable of making any...

[tetsujin1979]

Will there be any post-tournament evaluation by an external auditor, as with Genesis after World Cup 2002?

[Noelys Guitar]

Will there be any post-tournament evaluation by an external auditor, as with Genesis after World Cup 2002?
No (money or lack of being the reason I assume). The points made by Sadlier have been depressingly made many times before. We badly need a Dr Tony O'Neill type running football again and not the current crew at the FAI. I said it on another thread but I would have Niall Quinn and Roy Keane running things. Serious people who are capable of making real changes.

[Stuttgart88]

I said it on another thread but I would have Niall Quinn and Roy Keane running things. Serious people who are capable of making real changes.Me too.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Quinny maybe but not the other lad.

[boovidge]

Niall Quinn, the same man who put so much time and effort into Sunderland instead of a LOI club? Roy Keane who seems to denigrate anything remotely Irish? All that needs to happen for a decent league standard is for people to stop being customers for EPL clubs and start supporting Irish clubs. They won't do that so realistically it will remain very difficult for us to develop players.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We can develop players, just we'll have to rely on clubs the other side of the Irish Sea to do this, mainly...

[boovidge]

But it's not the 1980s anymore, when English clubs were mainly limited to young players from Britain and Ireland. Now these clubs attract players from across the globe. That we can't give our players a viable domestic platform on which to develop is shameful.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I know but is a domestic professional league even commercially viable?

You'd like to think so but even the biggest clubs have struggled financially.

[geysir]

I don't know what qualities Keane and Quinn have to be coaching directors, even if they were willing.

Now that Koevermans is gone, FAI would do alright if they hired somebody like Andy Roxburgh, who was the technical director hired by the Swiss FA to oversee the development of a coaching strategy and implemented it using the clubs as a conduit, all clubs - professional and amateur. The coaches (80 or 90 of them) are employed by the FA, spend their time working with the national youth teams, assisting clubs in coaching and then they are involved with the elite centres which the top 40 clubs run by themselves. Sadlier referred to too many LOI clubs being a problem, but he also pointed out where the established LOI clubs should be the obvious focus for the elite academies.

[Noelys Guitar]

I take your point about Roxburgh but it didn't produce the players in Scotland when he was in charge of coaching. I would approach Quinn and Keane because not only have they played at the higest level they have good knowledge of the LOI and underage football in Ireland. The Germans, Dutch, French and others use personalities ie Beckenbauer along with thought out good coaching that suits their national character. Who determines good coaches/coaching? John Delaney or Quinn/Keane.

[geysir]

When Roxburgh was coaching director of the Scot's youngsters, he did very well.
As coach to senior team he wouldn't have had much to do with directing coaching.

[Stuttgart88]

Niall Quinn, the same man who put so much time and effort into Sunderland instead of a LOI club?

Niall Quinn did actually play for Sunderland and had set down roots there. I'd sooner criticise the Irish developers / publicans who poured millions into Sunderland rather than a LOI club. In general I think it'd be good if senior players of earlier vintages got back involved in Irish football. Quinn (especially) and Keane would remove any complacency that exists in the FAI. I think Quinn would be a good CEO. I don't see either getting his hands dirty on development - that's for coaches - but if those in charge of development were accountable to people like that I think we could rest assured that stuff will actually get done.

[Noelys Guitar]

One of the first things Quinn would do is market the LOI to a worldwide Television audience. Delaney should have been knocking down the door of Foxsoccer, Aussie TV, Chinese TV a long time ago to sell the TV rights. It will happen and it will bring in much needed extra revenue for the clubs. If I can watch any number of national Leagues on cable (many of them inferior to the LOI) then that is something that needs to be addressed.

[Stuttgart88]

One thing the FAI could do, in conjunction with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs, is to charge non-EU clubs for them to plant some players in the LOI for a season to get them a EU work permit, allowing for more lucrative transfers to the big leagues. It needn't be widescale but would be a neat little earner.

I'm sure the Asian gambling market could have appetite for televised LOI football because of its timing, but then the whole realm of match fixing / spot fixing would need tight policing.

[AlaskaFox]

One thing the FAI could do, in conjunction with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs, is to charge non-EU clubs for them to plant some players in the LOI for a season to get them a EU work permit, allowing for more lucrative transfers to the big leagues. It needn't be widescale but would be a neat little earner.

This is a decent idea. If it only took 3 years for sportspeople to become a naturalised Irish citizen, then you'd see big clubs having Irish affiliate clubs to help with work permit regulations, rather than the likes of Antwerp in Belgium for Man Utd

[Stuttgart88]

CEO of Athlone Town's view of Koeverman legacy

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/8371/koevermans-departure-should-not-stop-progress/

[tetsujin1979]

Probably the most information I've read about what Koeverman did while working for the FAI

[mypost]

I can warm to Kerr when he's being humble and balanced in the way he expresses his views.

How many tournaments did he qualify for?

Where was the full-flowing attacking football in Tel Aviv? Or in Nicosia? Or at home to an understrength France? Or even at home to the Swatches needing a goal to get a play off?

The only balance about him is the way we're playing now. The way that got us further than he did.

[tetsujin1979]

Kerr's only being balanced when he remembers he has a chip on both shoulders.

[Stuttgart88]

Indo highlighting some key issues, without adding much in the way of detail.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/irelands-summer-of-discontent-3147777.html

[paul_oshea]

Great article. Hopefully people like him are involved with underage football in ireland.

I am getting worried with our showing and general state of the game at home, for the younger generation. I feel in 10 years time at international level we could be in a very bad way both at senior and youth level.

[geysir]

If FAI dysfunction was an issue for Koevermans and he is now going to India where dysfunction is an art form, does that tell us anything about the FAI or Koevermans?
Perhaps he suffers from codependency?

[Stuttgart88]

More money I'd guess.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Get the Germans in!

Excepting a Herr Vogts.

[Stuttgart88]

In amongst the mess of recent days, poster of the moment Tricky Colour actually made a good point. Whereas I think we're producing players more or less of the same standard as in the past, bar the occasional exceptional talent, the rest of the game has moved on - especially in terms of technique. The technical capability of most players these days at the top level is superb. Teams are also set up to utilise this technical capability.

We've stood still, many others have moved on.