Where to from now....

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but a lot more money sloshing about there always draws them in.

[osarusan]

.
I still think the most elegant solution to everything is for Ireland to develop 2, maybe 3or 4 at a stretch, fully professional teams that would gain virtually automatic entry into the Europa League and UEFA would change the Europa League so it becomes regionalised with our teams in the "North West Europe Zone" giving local derby type status to many of the games but also allowing for the Evertons / Sunderlands / Fulhams (or whoever) a chance to field waeker teams midweek and with relatively low travel complications - so they'd support the change too. My hunch (and that;'s all it is - I don't have a crystal ball) is that gate money would go up, sponsorship would go up and TV money would go up. Facilities and wages can be upgraded and a better all-round product would be offered.

The logistics of divvying up European football into enough zones would be hard but not impossible. Alternatively UEFA could look at allowing for a trans-European league not involving the Big 5 so Ireland might be able to enter a team (max two) into a "best of the rest" structure so X and Y teams from Ireland can play the Portos, Anderlechts, Ajaxes etc. The bigger teams in the smaller European leagues would be able to play against teams of similar financial standing.

Something along the above lines is the only way I can envisage the top professional tier of irish football being viable and being a credible alternative to our better (but not best) players playing in the Championship and below.

My first reaction to this is to quote you earlier in your own post:

.
It would also stand firmly against what all of us football fans believe in.
For me, the success of Limerick FC is far more important than success of the National team. I don't expect many people to like that, but that's how it is. So I'm only going to be supportive of change which has as its primary goal the improvement of the LOI (with better players for the national team being a positive side effect). Any idea to break up the top tier of domestic football and put it back together only with a view to improving the role it plays in producing players for the national team is going to run into opposition from LOI fans (which isn't to say it wouldn't happen).

If the first part of your idea happened, I can see two problems. First, when not involved in europa league games, where would these teams be playing in? The LOI? Are you in favour of just giving a bucketload of cash to carefully selected teams to ensure their yearly qualification into Europe, and nothing for the rest? Secondly, just because we'd have better teams doesn't mean they'd all have Irish players. To ensure competitiveness in Europe while maintaining a theme of developing players is very difficult. A look at Sunderland's squad tells me that just over half are not English, while 16 of Everton's squad are not English, and at fulham, the number of non-English players is 20/26. I know these are only examples you used, but the point I'm making is that we could very easily fall into the trap of thinking that having a good standard of football in our league means we'll have a good national team. England has been at a loss for years to explain the disappointing performances at the WC and Euros of the players from 'the best league in the world'. Wouldn't the Irish 'super-clubs' similarly be forced into buying non-Irish players to remain competitive?

I think that your second suggestion of the transnational league would have the same problems, except with only 2 teams, the opportunities for young Irish players would be even more limited.

[Charlie Darwin]

My first reaction to this is to quote you earlier in your own post:

For me, the success of Limerick FC is far more important than success of the National team. I don't expect many people to like that, but that's how it is. So I'm only going to be supportive of change which has as its primary goal the improvement of the LOI (with better players for the national team being a positive side effect). Any idea to break up the top tier of domestic football and put it back together only with a view to improving the role it plays in producing players for the national team is going to run into opposition from LOI fans (which isn't to say it wouldn't happen).

If the first part of your idea happened, I can see two problems. First, when not involved in europa league games, where would these teams be playing in? The LOI? Are you in favour of just giving a bucketload of cash to carefully selected teams to ensure their yearly qualification into Europe, and nothing for the rest? Secondly, just because we'd have better teams doesn't mean they'd all have Irish players. To ensure competitiveness in Europe while maintaining a theme of developing players is very difficult. A look at Sunderland's squad tells me that just over half are not English, while 16 of Everton's squad are not English, and at fulham, the number of non-English players is 20/26. I know these are only examples you used, but the point I'm making is that we could very easily fall into the trap of thinking that having a good standard of football in our league means we'll have a good national team. England has been at a loss for years to explain the disappointing performances at the WC and Euros of the players from 'the best league in the world'. Wouldn't the Irish 'super-clubs' similarly be forced into buying non-Irish players to remain competitive?

I think that your second suggestion of the transnational league would have the same problems, except with only 2 teams, the opportunities for young Irish players would be even more limited.
Definitely. The smaller leagues in Europe that are producing the elite sides are doing so with domestic players and resources. No amount of investment will disguise the fact we aren't producing the requisite standard of technical players.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course a simple alternative objective might just be to improve the LOI and make sure its financially viable (mainly by cutting costs rather than increasing wages) but to give up the objective of providing a particularly high quality football product. We could aim at developing better players from a young age and if they go to England in their teens so be it. In due course with England now finally introducing small sided games, a national academy, transferring elite coaching responsibility to the big clubs etc. our players will have to be developed similarly even to preserve our current model.

If some form of cross-border solution was pursued I understand the revenue disparity that would exist so some form of downstream subsidy would have to be in place - possibly necessitating a closed league.

I fully respect your favouring Limerick over Ireland. I've always believed there is no one best way. This mad game pulls on all our hearts in different ways.

I still think Irish players would be favoured simply because they'd now earn a wage that would probably keep them at home but that wage level might not be enough to attract players from abroad. I think the Irish rugby players benefit from a tax break that means they get an income tax rebate if they spend most of their careers in Ireland. It's a tricky issue because you can't prevent EU clubs from hiring EU players. Leave the EU!

I understand that change might not be accepted by many. I'm a traditionalist myself but equally I'm frustrated that Ireland can't offer its public a football product that captures the public imagination.

[Stuttgart88]

Remember this - from 2005?

http://foot.ie/inc/pdf/genesis.pdf

This is what they thought was "possible and a realistic vision of success" in 5 years:

Ranking:
• Top 20’s in the UEFA League rankings
• League clubs are consistently competitive in Europe and competing in the
Champions League group stages

Attendances:
• 1 million per annum with an average 4,000-5,000 per game
• Successful clubs in all major population centres

Facilities:

• Range of 5,000/10,000 all-seater stadia throughout the League
• High quality facilities including corporate hospitality, catering and
conference with the stadia working 7 days a week
• Facilitate the creation of ‘an event’ around game night
• Pitches meet International standard and high quality training facilities

Licensing:
• All clubs adhere to licensing requirements
• Range of high criteria set for participating clubs

Club Management:
• Professional management & administration in clubs with a long-term
planning focus
• Clubs stable, solvent and investing in infrastructure and development
• Clubs managing within their means (Wage/turnover ratio 65% or less)

Media Coverage:
• High profile coverage across all media (TV, Radio, Print, Digital)
• Weekly live and highlights TV coverage of games
• Players recognised and personalities created

Playing Standards:
• League players regularly in International Squad
• All coaches fully qualified
• High quality, competitive football, with full time professional squads

Marketing:
• League is ‘sexy’ and ‘cool’
• High quality branding and marketing, attracting premium sponsors/partners

Pyramid:
• League is the pinnacle of the football pyramid with a clear pathway from
under-age, youth, senior leagues and partnership with all of football
• Young players aspiring to play in the league and the clubs developing their
own talent with successful National underage leagues in place

Community:
• Strong identity between clubs and their communities
• All clubs/schools in the area are attached to their local ‘league’ club
• Club is the focal point for the community it serves

League Management and control:
• Long-term, strategic focus
• Strong, decisive, independent and direct guarantor of excellence
• Detailed participation agreement/contract in place and adhered to

Financial Strength and Stability:
• League generating significant revenues - €5-10m
• Attracting investment form Government, Private Investment
• Top League clubs with annual turnover of €3m+ and financially stable

[Junior]

How much of the gap between the above and reality is a result of......

(a) Poor Management and implementation of the gensis findings by the FAI / Clubs
(b) The economy in general
(c) Genisis talking through its consultancy ***hole!!!

In the last 7 years has the league stoodstill, gone backwards or forwards?

[Stuttgart88]

Can you format text with the strikeout option here?

In absence of that formatting option I have highlighted in bold those areas where better execution / planning / management can make improvements.

Anything else costs money that ain't likely to be found. Of course there's a lot of "chicken and egg" - better sponsors, better product etc. will lead to better turnover, and hence better quality, but which comes first?

Ranking:
• Top 20’s in the UEFA League rankings
• League clubs are consistently competitive in Europe and competing in the
Champions League group stages

Attendances:
• 1 million per annum with an average 4,000-5,000 per game
• Successful clubs in all [ or most] major population centres

Facilities:

• Range of 5,000/10,000 all-seater stadia throughout the League
• High quality facilities including corporate hospitality, catering and
conference with the stadia working 7 days a week
• Facilitate the creation of ‘an event’ around game night
• Pitches meet International standard and high quality training facilities

Licensing:
• All clubs adhere to licensing requirements
• Range of high criteria set for participating clubs

Club Management:
• Professional management & administration in clubs with a long-term
planning focus
• Clubs stable, solvent and investing in infrastructure and development
• Clubs managing within their means (Wage/turnover ratio 65% or less)

Media Coverage:
• High profile coverage across all media (TV, Radio, Print, Digital)
• Weekly live and highlights TV coverage of games
• Players recognised and personalities created

Playing Standards:
• League players regularly in International Squad
• All coaches fully qualified
• High[er] quality, competitive football, with full time professional squads

Marketing:
• League is ‘sexy’ and ‘cool’
• High[er] quality branding and marketing, attracting premium [better] sponsors/partners

Pyramid:
• League is the pinnacle of the football pyramid with a clear pathway from
under-age, youth, senior leagues and partnership with all of football
• Young players aspiring to play in the league and the clubs developing their
own talent with successful National underage leagues in place

Community:
• Strong identity between clubs and their communities
• All clubs/schools in the area are attached to their local ‘league’ club
• Club is the focal point for the community it serves

League Management and control:
• Long-term, strategic focus
• Strong, decisive, independent and direct guarantor of excellence
• Detailed participation agreement/contract in place and adhered to

Financial Strength and Stability:
• League generating significant revenues - €5-10m
• Attracting investment form Government, Private Investment
• Top League clubs with annual turnover of €3m+ and financially stable

[Stuttgart88]

(c) Genisis talking through its consultancy ***hole!!!

In the last 7 years has the league stoodstill, gone backwards or forwards?

I love the consultant quip.

I think some of the league has gone forwards, much of it backwards.

[SkStu]

Backwards. Undoubtedly.

[Acornvilla]

Were eh.. 7 years closer to a solution.

[Noelys Guitar]

Professional football is going to go the way of Professional boxing (multitude of belts) and cricket under Kerry Packer (and failry soon too). Especially the Premier League. Your are going to see Premier league games being played in various cities around the world. It will be pure franchising and watch as the owners start flexing thier financial muscle. There might be an opening here for the top teams in the LOI when/if it does happen. A type of second tier European type league.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm pretty sure the EU will flex its muscle and disallow such a move - or at least make it difficult. Centralised selling of TV rights is typically seen as monopolistic behaviour and breach of dominant position, both clear breaches of EU competition rules. However, the EC has allowed leagues and UEFA to collectively sell their rights because it raises more money for the game which is channelled downwards. The EU has a favoured vision of sports structure and kind of tuns a blind eye to breaches of antitrust rules if it can be shown that the objective is justifiable, legitimate and proportionate. A Super League or franchised league doesn't fit this vision and I believe the clubs would find it hard to get it through. Individual TV rights selling would make many clubs very uneasy. That said, the contract between UEFA and the major clubs (where the clubs agree to be bound by UEFA's rules) expires in 2014 I think. As long as UEFA continues to give ground with regard to fewer international dates, compensation for players injured on international duty etc. I think we'll see the current model stay for some time.

Anyone else got a view?

[geysir]

I concur with Stutts.

[Junior]

Great post geysir - bang on the money.

[Stuttgart88]

Just to correct the above (too late to edit) that should have read 'abuse of dominant position'.

[elroy]

The LOI is always going to struggle to compete with the EPL, in fairness a comparison is even unfair. We should not be trying to build an EPL style league here. The EPL is huge in Asia and they are thousands of miles away, what chance have we so close to it!!

The only way we will be involved in a "big style" league is if there is a creation of a European wide elite league and we may get one (Dublin) and max two participants (Dub and Belfast). next best thing is a Celtic style league, between NI, Scots, Welsh and ourselves with perhaps two or three entries from ROI.

The FAI need to make a concentrated and deliberate effort to develop the game here. Look at the most well attended sport in the country - GAA, even they struggle to get solid regular attendances. But they have sound local support in alot of counties. Thats what we need to develop. We're not talking big numbers here - if each club had a solid following of 5k plus, then that would be a success.

New clubs should be developed in areas that can support such teams - it will take time and investment. But when watching some gaa yday I was thinking that there are some strong sporting counties in this country that have zero LOI involvement and arent even close to it. I would propose a first tier of Irish football comprising teams from Kerry, Limerick City, Cork City, Mayo (Castlebar, W'port or Ballina), Galway United, Silgo Rovers, Derry City, Waterford United, Drogheda United/Dundalk, two teams from Dublin, Tipperary (Clonmel). There may well be scope for one or two more.
But the main points from such a plan would be
1. To have a team in areas of the country such that wherever you are, you are not very far from a LOI club.
2. Each LOI club has a strong catchment area that can support 5k plus regular attendance and
3. (with the exception of Dublin) there is no more than one team in each catchment area - i.e so that the support that is there is not diluted (example being three teams in Galway at one point when only one at best is sustainable.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, I think a good outcome for the LOI would be clubs that have crowds of 3-5k regularly and that have up-to-date stadia and playing surfaces to match. A key ingedient is for them to be rooted in the community and seen as a complement rather than a competitor to intermediate clubs.

You're right that the EPL shouldn't be a benchmark. My guess is that some EPL players earn more in a week or a few weeks than a LOI club turnsover in a full season. So the strategy choice is whether to push for some solution that would allow for a higher (but not top drawer) professional product to be presented to the public, or whether to pare down expectations and have a nice tidy sustainable, mutual model but which ultimately is unlikely to rank much higher than low 30s / high 20s in European coefficient.

[ifk101]

How about a €5 LOI tax on international ticket sales?, ie if you don't hold a LOI season ticket you pay a €5 extra charge for international tickets. The money made from this tax can be re-distributed to the LOI clubs in terms of stadium grants/ youth development projects etc etc.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Tickets to international games are all ready overpriced as it is. That would just mean less people filling the Aviva. Would probably also embitter supporters of English clubs against the LoI, not encourage them.

[Stuttgart88]

But what about the ROI attendees who are openly competing with the LOI - the various intermediate clubs for example, or the schoolboy clubs? Why are LOI clubs more worthy of infrastructure grants? It all goes back to the issue of "joining up" the whole game.

Also, pricing of tickets appears to be a deterrent at the moment and will be for some time. Would a surcharge on existing tickets to finance a part of the game many see as either competing or a basket case might just reduce ROI crowds further.

[ifk101]

Would probably also embitter supporters of English clubs against the LoI, not encourage them.

That ship has sailed.


But what about the ROI attendees who are openly competing with the LOI - the various intermediate clubs for example, or the schoolboy clubs? Why are LOI clubs more worthy of infrastructure grants? It all goes back to the issue of "joining up" the whole game.

Sure, the benefits are the tax don't necessarily need to be restricted to LOI clubs.


Also, pricing of tickets appears to be a deterrent at the moment and will be for some time. Would a surcharge on existing tickets to finance a part of the game many see as either competing or a basket case might just reduce ROI crowds further.

Sure but the domestic game needs funding if it's to improve.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the FAI is a less healthy version of Man United in a way - any money in pays off the debts first. In FAI's case there seems to be flip all left after that!

[Supreme feet]

Haven't been on here in a while; now that the dust has settled a bit after the Euros, here are my thoughts. And I'm sorry to digress from the very interesting grassroots and LOI debate...

I think the biggest indictment of Trapattoni from this tournament was that the starting line-up against Italy contained nine players who started against Italy in Croker in 2009. Given that Duff was injured for that Croker game, and it looks like the only change Trap has made in three years has been to replace Kilbane with Ward - a forced change, in many respects. Italy, by contrast, had only four survivors from 2009 in their starting line-up (Buffon, Chiellini, Pirlo, De Rossi). Statistically, we had the oldest squad in the tournament. We now have a stagnant team in dire need of change, which has been an underlying fear despite our commendable results in the qualifying campaign.

Since 2009, we have had 14 friendlies to try out new players, and given out 14 new caps (Fahey, Green, McCarthy, Cunningham, Sheridan, Clark, Wilson, Walters, Cox, Ward, Coleman, Treacy, Forde, McClean), which doesn't exactly point to an unwillingness to try new talent. Unfortunately, some of our better up-and-coming players had to pull out of squads at times when they had a real chance to cement their places. Also, Gibson and Foley were given opportunities to push on into the starting XI, but they both 'fluffed their auditions' to an extent at home to Macedonia, and they weren't given much of a chance thereafter. It's not like Trap hasn't tried to reshuffle, but it just hasn't worked out for a number of individual players. On the other hand, Trapattoni has also been guilty of misjudgement of players in a number of positions; McCarthy as a 'free role' player, Clark and Wilson being ignored as utility options, Foley in CM, O'Shea at RB, unwillingness to drop Whelan or Andrews even when hideously out of form, picking Keogh as the midfield/forward utility option instead of trying Hoolahan, and keeping faith with Green and McShane in the squad. In this campaign, there will be no margin for error in our team selections. If we have players out of form or out of position while better alternatives are left on the bench or out of the squad completely, we will be punished.

As for the system, well, as has been pointed out on this and other threads, we have the same problem with Robbie Keane as England have had with Wayne Rooney; how do you leave out the top goalscorer? With 12 goals in 18 games in 2010/11, he had to be fitted in somewhere, and as he proved at Liverpool, he isn't well-suited to a lone striker or AM role in a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 variant. Keane's presence has certainly dictated the shape of the team; Trap mused about using Keane in the 'Totti' role, but Keane's natural game is to play on the shoulder of the last defender - Keane has often looked confused when attempting to drop deep (Bulgaria away is a good example of this). Our last win against a mid-to-high seeded team was against Slovakia in 2007, when Keane was suspended and Staunton accidentally stumbled upon his best team; 4-5-1 with Duff, Ireland and McGeady playing behind Kevin Doyle. The extra man in midfield compensated for the fact that we had limited players in CM (Carsley and Kilbane) who both struggled in a 4-4-2 in that campaign. The change in formation is definitely workable for Irish players, and can pay dividends. Now that Keane is winding down his career, it's an ideal time to look at alternatives.

Where to from now? We can write Euro 2012 off as a bad experience. Sweden and Denmark had awful Euro 2000 campaigns, but qualified for most of the tournaments in the following twelve years. I'd be more than happy if we could do the same. The formation needs to change, and the squad needs some fresh blood; that's absolutely clear now. The current starting XI has stayed together for too long, and grown stale. We have a much wider pool of talent than what was available in 2008/9, and the likes of Wilson, McCarthy, Gibson, Hoolahan, McClean and Long should be central to the team's development, after having good seasons last year - not just fringe players. If Clark, Coleman, Meyler, McCann, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham and others make better headway at club level, it should be recognised and rewarded.

The next squad/team announcement is going to be very interesting, and could well define our campaign. If Trap keeps faith with 4-4-2 and fails to shake things up at full-back and central midfield, and continues to ignore club form, it'll be a long two years. I'm just hoping for change, and for the right changes to be made, and that our young players can step up to our expectations. Are the FAI right to keep Trap on? I would say a cautious and partly resigned 'yes'. As Sanchez and McLeish/Smith showed with NI and Scotland, a good club job is far more attractive these days than a mid-ranking international job. If the FAI are, as expected, to return to modest wage packets, our next manager will probably be someone with very little top-level experience, or someone with significant blotches of failure or mediocrity on their CV. Giving Trap the sack after qualifying for our first tournament in 10 years would make the Irish job seem like an extremely unattractive and thankless proposition, even for an accomplished and ambitious manager. Either way, it'll be a risk, and I suppose it's a case of 'better the devil you know' for the time being.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the biggest indictment of Trapattoni from this tournament was that the starting line-up against Italy contained nine players who started against Italy in Croker in 2009. And 8 (or 7 but Duff was injured) that started the campaign away to Georgia.

Great stuff above, welcome back.

[geysir]

How about a €5 LOI tax on international ticket sales?, ie if you don't hold a LOI season ticket you pay a €5 extra charge for international tickets. The money made from this tax can be re-distributed to the LOI clubs in terms of stadium grants/ youth development projects etc etc.
Rather than raise the ticket price, have a mandatory 10% of total ticket income put aside for the above. Have it regarded as a compulsory duty to cover this obligation.
Possibly designate one friendly for this purpose.

[elroy]

Where to from now? We can write Euro 2012 off as a bad experience. Sweden and Denmark had awful Euro 2000 campaigns, but qualified for most of the tournaments in the following twelve years. I'd be more than happy if we could do the same. The formation needs to change, and the squad needs some fresh blood; that's absolutely clear now. The current starting XI has stayed together for too long, and grown stale. We have a much wider pool of talent than what was available in 2008/9, and the likes of Wilson, McCarthy, Gibson, Hoolahan, McClean and Long should be central to the team's development, after having good seasons last year - not just fringe players. If Clark, Coleman, Meyler, McCann, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham and others make better headway at club level, it should be recognised and rewarded.

The next squad/team announcement is going to be very interesting, and could well define our campaign. If Trap keeps faith with 4-4-2 and fails to shake things up at full-back and central midfield, and continues to ignore club form, it'll be a long two years. I'm just hoping for change, and for the right changes to be made, and that our young players can step up to our expectations. Are the FAI right to keep Trap on? I would say a cautious and partly resigned 'yes'. As Sanchez and McLeish/Smith showed with NI and Scotland, a good club job is far more attractive these days than a mid-ranking international job. If the FAI are, as expected, to return to modest wage packets, our next manager will probably be someone with very little top-level experience, or someone with significant blotches of failure or mediocrity on their CV. Giving Trap the sack after qualifying for our first tournament in 10 years would make the Irish job seem like an extremely unattractive and thankless proposition, even for an accomplished and ambitious manager. Either way, it'll be a risk, and I suppose it's a case of 'better the devil you know' for the time being.


Agree that it would be nonsensical to get rid of Trap after he qualified us for the Euros - a competition that is higher in standard per team than the WC. Trap made alot of mistakes at the Euros but he deserves another shot.

Change is an absolute must at this stage. At the start of his reign, Trap brought in plenty of new players and was more than willing to mix it up when needed. He needs to do the same now again - whatever about the formation, at least five or six new players need to be drafted in. For me and in order of priority I want to see McCarthy, Long, McClean, Gibson, Wilson, Duffy and Clark brought into the squad for the Serbia match and given a good run out in the match.

Question is does anyone believe Trap will make such radical changes for the friendly?!? I for one am not optimistic. I think we will see a squad that mirrors what he brought to the Euros. If that happens and he has a poor start to the campaign, he will be in danger of going the same way as McCarthy did in the Euro 2004 campaign.

[Junior]

Good post supreme.

What makes you say that the FAI are expected to return to modest wage packets? I've not seen the accounts yet were there any comments in there about salaries? Or are you just basing that on the fact that traps and JD's salaries far outweigh the role and performance to date and it's morally what should happen!!

[Supreme feet]

Good post supreme.

What makes you say that the FAI are expected to return to modest wage packets? I've not seen the accounts yet were there any comments in there about salaries? Or are you just basing that on the fact that traps and JD's salaries far outweigh the role and performance to date and it's morally what should happen!!

Just an assumption really, given the expenses associated with the Aviva, and the uncertainty of further backing from Denis O'Brien.

[elroy]

The next donation from Denis O'Brien will be used to support JD's salary. :rolleyes:

I think I am getting more and more angry about his salary every day.

[Bungle]

I feel that LOI clubs will never be able to attract really big crowds in the current climate, unless very wealthy Irish businessmen invest in the league, like has happened with clubs like Shakthar Donetsk etc. I could see how a city like Dublin has great potential to invest in and develop a club, but I think the downside is that such people would have little interest in dealing with the small time FAI. I do think that if there was a regional league with the North, Scotland and maybe Norway, like a Magnier's League, it would attract more investment and it would become a more attractive league for fans. Alot of this is pie in the sky stuff because UEFA might not be keen on the idea. Even if it was approved, it might not happen for 10-15 years.

However, I feel that a league with good facilities, clubs that have their own academies with excellent coaches and in the cases of clubs like Sligo Rovers and Cork are regional hubs for the best young players in their areas is very attainable. These clubs could have links with all the schoolboy clubs in the area and be able to identify the very promising players and get them in to their set-up. In return, they would give local clubs top level coaching. I understand that when the likes of Liverpool or Man United come knocking the very best youngsters would be likely to leave, but at least such youngsters would be in the club's academy and the club would be able to receive compensation.

[paul_oshea]

I think your second paragraph is a far more attainable and realistic goal, than the first. In the first there are too many external factors, and decisions out of our control. Sligo rovers do seem to be doing good work with underage camps and stuff like that but if they were to train up more coaches or join up with the top division/clubs in the district leagues around them and offer coaching or help in whatever way they can it would be a good start. I think maybe the FAI should look to join up a few District leagues with certain(perhaps permier division) clubs within their area. That way you could have 3/4 leagues attached to one club. All with the hope as acting as direct feeders through to the clubs and ensuring that coaching and standards are at the required standard within the junior clubs. What people seem to forget is the schoolboys are very demographically biased and only in certain areas. There are underage leagues all over the country that are acting almost independent of anything else, if you could organise them through clubs to LOI clubs then this would be the best possible approach all round.

[Charlie Darwin]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

[elroy]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

Simple and maybe stupid question but why is that in rovers case? They are arguably one of the better models for LOI teams, a good catchment area, reasonably well run club, successful etc. Is it as simple to put it down to the recession and the attractiveness of foreign leagues versus our own?

[Charlie Darwin]

Probably everything, but I think it's mainly because the results and style of football have been poor.

[Mr A]

I always thought there was a likelihood that Rovers crowds would drop a bit after the initial surge in Tallaght- especially since ye won the league so quickly- you spoiled the people far too quickly :)

[geysir]

Are the hopes that the LOI will grow and that Shamrock Rovers descend to mid table anonymity, mutually exclusive?

[Bungle]

I think your second paragraph is a far more attainable and realistic goal, than the first. In the first there are too many external factors, and decisions out of our control. Sligo rovers do seem to be doing good work with underage camps and stuff like that but if they were to train up more coaches or join up with the top division/clubs in the district leagues around them and offer coaching or help in whatever way they can it would be a good start. I think maybe the FAI should look to join up a few District leagues with certain(perhaps permier division) clubs within their area. That way you could have 3/4 leagues attached to one club. All with the hope as acting as direct feeders through to the clubs and ensuring that coaching and standards are at the required standard within the junior clubs. What people seem to forget is the schoolboys are very demographically biased and only in certain areas. There are underage leagues all over the country that are acting almost independent of anything else, if you could organise them through clubs to LOI clubs then this would be the best possible approach all round.

That's the key thing really. There's some great schoolboy clubs in the country that are linked in with cross channel clubs. I mean Liverpool are linked in with St Kevin's and St Joseph's. However, wouldn't it be so much better if those clubs were linked in with the Bohemians or Shamrock Rovers etc.

I do believe that ultimately the very best young players would leave regardless (the top clubs in England get academy players from the Zagrebs and Copenhagens of this world etc), but maybe good LOI set ups would mean that they would leave at a later age, rather than go at 15/16 and those clubs would get good compensation.

I also believe that the league needs to be re-organised. For example, there are too many teams in Dublin. Would it be better to amalgamate some clubs? I mean I know for fellas that love their club it might seem a terrible idea, but it might make sense in the long run, through bigger crowds and bigger revenue.

[Stuttgart88]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

[Bungle]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

Hopefully, Rovers can get their attendances back up. I really feel that they and Sligo Rovers seem to have a model that the league could follow. Would it be an idea to offer tickets for 2-3 euro to local secnondary school kids to try and get the numbers up? It gets them in to the habit of going to their local team and if there's gangs of friends going, it means they might be more likely to keep attending games, because they'll be having the craic.

I remember when I lived in Liverpool, there was loads of my mates who got the bug for football from the old kids pens in Goodison and Anfield. A huge part of being a football supporter is atmosphere and having the craic. If clubs could get youngsters to get the bug early, then they will be the paying supporters 10-15 years down the line.

[Bungle]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?

I feel that the FAI need to get people involved in the game at all levels and seriously trash out how we can take football forward. The hard questions need to be asked and nothing should be off the table, even if it means upsetting alot of people.

[Charlie Darwin]

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?

I feel that the FAI need to get people involved in the game at all levels and seriously trash out how we can take football forward. The hard questions need to be asked and nothing should be off the table, even if it means upsetting alot of people.
Well you brought up Liverpool yourself - Anfield is half a mile from Goodison Park. Last time I checked those clubs weren't doing so badly. Finn Harps and Sligo are two hours apart. Bray is 10 miles and 45 minutes from UCD.

There may be too many clubs in Dublin but that doesn't mean amalgamating them would do any good whatsoever. You'd just be erasing the history of two clubs. When people talk about there being too many clubs in Dublin, they usually mean clubs like UCD and Bray who have exhibited exemplary conduct in the past, not clubs like Bohs, Shels and Rovers who have brought themselves to the brink of extinction.

[ped_ped]

Creating a sustainable professional game in Ireland needs to be viewed as importantly as respecting the histories and traditions of the current league teams (the Bohs, Shels, Droghedas). With the right amounts of money a sustainable Munster / Leinster / Connaught / Ulster could be created and possible garner support but that would be artificial and effectively destroy the history of domestic Irish soccer in one fell swoop.

A Finn Harps / Sligo amalgamation is a smaller example of this.

The League of Ireland as it is now needs to be improved and restructures, not simply replaced.

[paul_oshea]

Some very interesting points here brought up in the last few posts. And I don't think you can just demolish clubs with roots for years, but I also don't think the current model is working beyond perhaps Cork/Sligo/SRFC. And cork have only been out of trouble a short while. The thing is with Sligo, back in the 90s Athlone town when they were in the 1st division and competing for honours they were getting attendances in the 1000s, but as their performances and competitiveness began to slide so too did their attendances. I fear the same for sligo, like any other club, across any code really. I dont think you can erradicate clubs, but having them in the first division based on a number of factors, would seem to be the way to go, it doesn't mean you cant change the face of the teams in the Premier Division. Arsenal and Spurs arent that far from eachother either, but id argue the population base is far greater, with little or no competition from other sports. Its not just simply a case of geogrpahic location or distance from one another. In my very limited opinion its a pity there isn't a north and south dublin, with say UCD and Bray plying their trade in a lower league, an amalgamation of Shels and bohs, both strong footballing territories, and PATS and rovers. But say by doing this, do you permanently put off fans, or do they try and create another club and gradually build it up again? A little like FC United.

I don't think there is any 1 glove fits all solution, but compromise and ensuring stakeholder buy in, is imperative. The structure doesn't work at the moment, its working better than years gone by, coincidentally when we are in a recession, and their is less money in the economy and football clubs, but it can be improved. Geographical centres, based demographically in footballing strongholds surely is the way forward, how you acheive that, without alienating or upsetting traditions and history, is the problem.

[Charlie Darwin]

Dublin clubs have amalgamated before, albeit I think it's never taken place between two professional teams. Drumcondra and Home Farm merged in the 70s, effectively destroying one of the Ireland's greatest clubs.

[Junior]

Hopefully, Rovers can get their attendances back up. I really feel that they and Sligo Rovers seem to have a model that the league could follow. Would it be an idea to offer tickets for 2-3 euro to local secnondary school kids to try and get the numbers up? It gets them in to the habit of going to their local team and if there's gangs of friends going, it means they might be more likely to keep attending games, because they'll be having the craic.

I remember when I lived in Liverpool, there was loads of my mates who got the bug for football from the old kids pens in Goodison and Anfield. A huge part of being a football supporter is atmosphere and having the craic. If clubs could get youngsters to get the bug early, then they will be the paying supporters 10-15 years down the line.

You would like to think that sort of stuff was being done as a mater of course but I have my doubts. Going to primary school in Manchester, we used to get given tickets to one match a year at Maine Road. It was a school outing and all the lads from footie in the playground went with the headmaster and we loved it!! The buzz from the crowd, the smells and noises - as a 7-8 year old you just cant beat it (Most were United fans but that didnt matter - all enjoyed it). 7-8 year olds in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI game, generally they wouldnt have anything to compare against as Im assuming most of them wouldnt have been to an SPL or EPL game at that stage in their lives. You then build on that with giving those kids that went with the school, vouchers for free tickets / 50% off tickets Parent/Child etc....etc....

Then the kids move to secondary school and at 13/14/15 he (or she) is off with their mates and they can go to games without the supervision. Secondary schools could do outings also or indeed just get the discounted u16 priced tickets out there so the kids can go with their mates - This should/could probably be on the back of some coaching from the said club to the school team(s) etc.etc...

All very obvious stuff I know - but its from these small acorns...........

[Stuttgart88]

14 out of 16 Uruguayan clubs are in Montevideo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.

[Stuttgart88]

7-8 years in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI gameI certainly did but when I was sklightly older I brouyght many friends to Milltown, dalyer, harolds Cross and Belfield and most never went back. wheraes I used to lovel the smell of the deep heat, the "you're going home in an effing ambulance" chants. the net bulging, yellow and red crads, my mates just never bought it at all. It was just too small time compared to what yiou could watch on the telly.

Every now and again a possible game changer came along - the huge crowds at Rovers' first game back on the southside (RDS) - utterly rubbish game, the Derry City phenomenon of the late 80s. I remember in about 92 or 93 a Bohs v Rovers FAI Cup tie went to a second replay and for some mad reason it got loads of attention - 15-20k on a Weds night at Dalyer - and again, not much to write home about.

People spend their leisure money in clubs and pubs and bars and restaurants now. Dalyer and Tolka just aren't viable competing products in my opinion. Leinster rugby probably is - but wouldn't be if it was a 500 man audience at Donnybrook.

[paul_oshea]

14 out of 16 Uruguayan clubs are in Montevideo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.

I wouldn't be using uruguay(im not saying you are, i think you are trying to point out, but its been used before as an example by CD or someone else and then you consumed it as your own) as a good example, montivideo holds about 2-3/5 of the overall population in Uruguay, its sparse to the north and east. Its along the coast where most people live.

When creating arguments, like goodison and anfield, uruguary and montevideio, try to provide some background with the argument not just pull out one fact to back up your overall argument. It goes on far too often on hear, especially as a one line response. For those not in the know, will remain ignorant.

[Bungle]

Well you brought up Liverpool yourself - Anfield is half a mile from Goodison Park. Last time I checked those clubs weren't doing so badly. Finn Harps and Sligo are two hours apart. Bray is 10 miles and 45 minutes from UCD.

There may be too many clubs in Dublin but that doesn't mean amalgamating them would do any good whatsoever. You'd just be erasing the history of two clubs. When people talk about there being too many clubs in Dublin, they usually mean clubs like UCD and Bray who have exhibited exemplary conduct in the past, not clubs like Bohs, Shels and Rovers who have brought themselves to the brink of extinction.

I respect what you say. However, I don't think you can compare Liverpool to Dublin. In Liverpool, there is essenitally only football. In Dublin, there is GAA and increasingly Rugby that competes with soccer. Secondly, for most scousers, their club is their national team, in the way in which the Boys in Green are for me. They have little or no affinity for Enlgand. I was in Liverpool during 88 and 90 and I can honestly say at least 80 percent of the people went bersek when Razor and Sheeds scored in the respective games in the pubs I was in.

Despite this, even on Merseyside, there has been talk of a ground share between the two clubs. It is unlikely to happen, but it is still an idea that is being floated.

Every club, whether LOI or schoolboy, big or small has a history, which has to be respected. I appreciate where you are coming from and your viewpoint. However, I do think for the league to move forward, these are the very questions that we need to be asking. Ultimately, if we want a league that can be sustainable, which can compete to a decent level in Europe with good facilities and offer young lads the chance to progress at a local club, rather than go to England at 15/16, change has to happen and lots of it.

[Stuttgart88]

Having a down day today Paul? Do you honestly think I was holding Montevideo as a model for the LOI? Jesus H.