Where to from now....

[paul_oshea]

No but you have used it before as an example, its not just you, its a general point on here when people respond or reply to anothers post. I'm in great form Stutts, dont get upset over a little constructive criticism.

[Bungle]

You would like to think that sort of stuff was being done as a mater of course but I have my doubts. Going to primary school in Manchester, we used to get given tickets to one match a year at Maine Road. It was a school outing and all the lads from footie in the playground went with the headmaster and we loved it!! The buzz from the crowd, the smells and noises - as a 7-8 year old you just cant beat it (Most were United fans but that didnt matter - all enjoyed it). 7-8 year olds in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI game, generally they wouldnt have anything to compare against as Im assuming most of them wouldnt have been to an SPL or EPL game at that stage in their lives. You then build on that with giving those kids that went with the school, vouchers for free tickets / 50% off tickets Parent/Child etc....etc....

Then the kids move to secondary school and at 13/14/15 he (or she) is off with their mates and they can go to games without the supervision. Secondary schools could do outings also or indeed just get the discounted u16 priced tickets out there so the kids can go with their mates - This should/could probably be on the back of some coaching from the said club to the school team(s) etc.etc...

All very obvious stuff I know - but its from these small acorns...........

Yeah hopefully it is happening. I think if it is done right, it is the very thing that could endear local kids to their local team. People love atmosphere and for many this stands over the quality of sport on offer - it was evident in Poland. Stuttgart88 mentions Leinster rugby and I do think that people go to see them, not just for the excellent rugby they play, but because there is a packed house and a good atmosphere at all their games. They wouldn't be as attractive for fans if there was 400 people watching their games imo.

[ifk101]

.... and offer young lads the chance to progress at a local club, rather than go to England at 15/16, change has to happen and lots of it.

You should have a look at the age profile of teams competing in the LOI - they can't get any younger than they are. The top scorer in the First Division is only 18, for example.

[bennocelt]

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?
.
You are right, awful idea!!!!

[Uncle_Joe]

I think the comparison with Uruguay isn't too far off with regard to the number of clubs in the capital. Montevideo has roughly 50% of the population of the country and 87% of the football clubs. Dublin has roughly 25% of the population and 60% (post Monaghan) of the clubs. If you look at Argentina, Buenos Aires it has 37% of the population and 66% of the clubs. Dublin is on the high end but the ratios are pretty similiar.
Dublin might have too many clubs but going down to just two clubs (north & south) isn't a good idea in my opinion. It makes sense that football would be more popular in urban areas and as a result more clubs should be sustainable.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.
Well it wasn't a direct comparison - I was just saying proximity doesn't pose a massive conundrum to kids trying to decide which club to support.

The number of Dublin clubs is not the problem. We live in a country with one major population centre - no disrespect intended to Cork, Limerick or Galway. If the number of Dublin clubs was pared down, all that would happen would be we'd have less teams. There would no commensurate growth.

[Stuttgart88]

No but you have used it before as an example, its not just you, its a general point on here when people respond or reply to anothers post. I'm in great form Stutts, dont get upset over a little constructive criticism.It was intended as a joke, not for some pedant to get all uptight about.

[Stuttgart88]

I was just saying proximity doesn't pose a massive conundrum to kids trying to decide which club to support. In Liverpool you're either a blue or a red family, almost like in Glasgow you're green or blue. Most families in Dublin have no affiliation whatsoever and there's simply nothing about any of the clubs that "hook" people, bar the recent attempts at community outreach.
I think Rovers and Pats have a firm catchment area, maybe with some overlap. Bohs have generally been seen as the club of DNS, but Shels are at risk from a pure "branding" perpective I'd say.

[osarusan]

Most families in Dublin have no affiliation whatsoever and there's simply nothing about any of the clubs that "hook" people, bar the recent attempts at community outreach.

I don't see how fewer clubs would change this at all.

[elroy]

Yeah hopefully it is happening. I think if it is done right, it is the very thing that could endear local kids to their local team. People love atmosphere and for many this stands over the quality of sport on offer - it was evident in Poland. Stuttgart88 mentions Leinster rugby and I do think that people go to see them, not just for the excellent rugby they play, but because there is a packed house and a good atmosphere at all their games. They wouldn't be as attractive for fans if there was 400 people watching their games imo.

There is the "cool" element as well of course. Leinster rugby is very much in right now - so people like to be associated with it, to say I was at the game etc. Munster rugby used to have that vibe and have lost it somewhat in recent years. It is a hard thing to sustain and it will be interesting to see if Leinster can maintain these levels of interest when they inevitability have a few bad years on the field again.


On the Liverpool example. It is an interesting analogy to Dublin, however one point that I dont think has been noted is the level of 'outside' attendance at Liverpool and Everton games. I would suggest a significant percentage of the fans at a Liverpool and indeed Everton home match are from an area greater than an hours travel from the ground. Even from Ireland alone, there must be hundreds if not thousands at each Liverpool home game. The EPL would not be what it is without that market. Unfortunately, LOI does not have such a market.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't see how fewer clubs would change this at all.Not by itself it wouldn't. That's where marketing and community work comes in and even then other factors would have to be aligned such as a general uplift in quality and facilities etc.

I think the point is that there is a large market for football spectators in Dublin and having 6 clubs competing for it makes less sense than having 2. But you have to have a product that appeals to these potential customers anyway and my guess is that the product that would draw most appeal is a decent level of fully professional product against other clubs representing big regions, possibly also from outside the country. As a Rovers fan I used to love the Bohs rivalry - biggest southside club versus biggest northside club - but I never saw Pats or Shels as anything other than another game even if they were geographically closer rivals. Home Farm and UCD were an irrelevance (until 1984! - and until I went to UCD). Cork should have been a more glamorous opponent but never had their act together, likewise Limerick. Outside of Bohs I used to get properly excited about Athlone and Dundalk because they had both been very good.

Part of the problem is that if these teams aren't taken seriously by their own fans then why should I bother about them? My big regret is that Rovers were in the wilderness during the early Derry years.

I don't know if I'm making this point well but if I felt, say, Cork City fans were as much up for a game against Rovers as the GAA team would be if they were playing the Dubs, then the whole context changes and the whole thing comes more interesting. Local football teams don't speak to the broad community like county GAA teams do.

I'm going to stop now, I'm not happy with how I'm articulating this!

[Junior]

Paul - your wanted over here - Can you get this sorted please!

[Charlie Darwin]

Not by itself it wouldn't. That's where marketing and community work comes in and even then other factors would have to be aligned such as a general uplift in quality and facilities etc.

I think the point is that there is a large market for football spectators in Dublin and having 6 clubs competing for it makes less sense than having 2. But you have to have a product that appeals to these potential customers anyway and my guess is that the product that would draw most appeal is a decent level of fully professional product against other clubs representing big regions, possibly also from outside the country.
Reducing the number of clubs would dilute the product. Potential 'customers' might not have 6 teams to choose from but they'd have a stronger inclination to choose none.

[Stuttgart88]

Other things being equal, maybe you're right. But I'm saying other things have to change too.

I posted a big rant about marketing and the 4Ps on another thread recently. People hate football and football clubs being described as "products" and "brands" but they most certainly are. There's a pull from being associated with a strong identifiable and distinguishable brand - Leinster rugby fans experience this. Of course, there's no way on earth there'll ever be a continent-leading football product in Dublin.

The question is what degree of product improvement is required to improve attendance and commercial metrics, and do the existing Dublin brands stand in the way of this or form part of the improvement?

Context is everything in sport. What sense of context can be developed to make things better?

[Charlie Darwin]

The point is that the problem isn't too many Dublin clubs, it's too few non-Dublin clubs. UCD and Bray are only in the Premier Division because they are better run and have more fans than clubs elsewhere.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't agree with amalgamating/merging sides, our clubs should be the base from which progress is charted and schemed. Granted some would no longer be at the top table and may find themselves in a regional rather than national arena, with a semi pro set up and a route back up should they merit it.

I base this on one thing, the tradition of each side, the roots it has in its community are to be treasured, imperfectly run as many have been. The identity of these clubs is a very dangerous thing to cast aside as all that has kept many of the sides going is the stubborn refusal of those who identify with it to let it die. I can see Cobh Ramblers and Galway playing L.O.I. again. Kildare County, Dublin City, and Sporting Fingal less so.

Now apply that across a league, or several components of the league if the new entity hits turbulence, you could turn an egg timer round on its remaining time. These are big dice to roll, a lot can be lost in an irretrievable manner, for a shiny new product the Irish soccer public may still ignore en masse.

[Stuttgart88]

Merging or collapsing existing clubs is not in my thoughts whatsoever. You hit the nail on the head - it may be that some clubs just no longer have a place at the top table, but they're all proud clubs in their own right and should remain so.

I actually have offered very few dogmatic proposals whatsoever. I've just asked the questions that I think ought to be asked.

[paul_oshea]

Ya i think there has been an established structure over the last couple of pages, that its who is at the top table, as opposed to eradicating clubs completely. But of course the option should always be there to get to the top table.

[Junior]

Just a little anecdote. The lad at casarebelde (football fans casual wear shop) recently contacted all Dublin based LOI clubs offering to sell tickets for their matches, commission free. His bit to help the league I suppose.

Prime location in Temple Bar, presumably plenty of foot traffic daily from Dubs and Irish and Non Irish tourists, stag do's etc..etc...

After a few weeks, Bohs are the only club to take up the offer.

An example of clubs not helping themselves?

[DannyInvincible]

Just a little anecdote. The lad at casarebelde (football fans casual wear shop) recently contacted all Dublin based LOI clubs offering to sell tickets for their matches, commission free. His bit to help the league I suppose.

Prime location in Temple Bar, presumably plenty of foot traffic daily from Dubs and Irish and Non Irish tourists, stag do's etc..etc...

After a few weeks, Bohs are the only club to take up the offer.

An example of clubs not helping themselves?

Unfathomable. What would the other clubs have had to lose? The price of a stamp and envelope?

[SkStu]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

Id love if Bohs subsumed Shels ;) (just kidding) but playing devils advocate - you would be driving away fans from the league without any guarantee whatsoever of attracting fans to the League. Its fair to say there would be a sizeable nett negative result. There are far more important obstacles than the number of teams in Dublin. It certainly shouldnt be the starting point for reformation of the league.

[Stuttgart88]

What does Airtricity do to activate its sponsorship - i.e., to get the benefits of the league association? Does it ever do promotional work?

Does it ever have draws for tickets or anything like that?

[Stuttgart88]

Just as a related aside, I see Southgate has quit his FA elite development role, where he was tipped to become technical director. The Times is suggesting it's because the EPL has too much control over youth development still. It's almost the opposite to our situation where the bottom of the game has the power, but in each instance the national association is emasculated.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought this was interesting in the rugby world. There's some risk to the H-Cup due to English and French demanding change (though you'd think a compromise is likely).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-at-risk-from-doubts-over-heineken-cup-future-201503.html

This shows how even a successful product is at risk from the politics of the club game across Europe. I think it highlights the risk associated with a franchise model especially if it is only in context of a few potentially flighty associations rather than a full European-wide breakaway league.

[Stuttgart88]

Laim Brady saying we need to change to 433 and will tell Trap next time they meet

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0731/1224321154414.html#

[paul_oshea]

because i knew you stutts, i came in here before i posted a new thread, but you haven't posted the independent article so i qill create a new thread.

[Charlie Darwin]

Glad I won't be in that room when Trapattoni puts a Liam Brady-shaped hole in the wall.

[p2011]

Would be nice if this was the start of some sort of heave against the present set-up. I have lost faith and it would be a pity to wait until qualification for 2014 is out of reach before shaking things up. Brady might not be the perfect manager, but he is in touch with modern football and young players and always sounds like he gives a damn.

[Stuttgart88]

because i knew you stutts, i came in here before i posted a new thread, but you haven't posted the independent article so i qill create a new thread.Actually I very nearly started a new thread on Brady's views on 433.
I hadn't seen the Indo article about schoolboy football at that stage.

[Stuttgart88]

Meanwhile Paul Doolin has agreed a contract extension to remain as Ireland Under-19 manager for another two seasons. The Dubliner will retain his current portfolio for the upcoming UEFA U19 qualification campaign which begins with a mini-group pre-qualification phase in October when Ireland face Germany, Macedonia and hosts Luxembourg.

Plans to appoint a successor to Ireland U17 boss John Morling are advanced with Donegal native Tom Mohan understood to be favourite.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/st-ledger-injury-worries-trap-202950.html

I don't know much about Mohan. Any of the Harps boys here got an opinion??

[paul_oshea]

Tom Mohan of TCG?

[SwanVsDalton]

Tom Mohan, a firm favourite of mine from his Derry City days and even after he moved over to Harps. Great player. Haven't followed his coaching career but great to see him pop back up.

[Mr A]

I don't think Tom Mohan is from Donegal.. He was from Fermanagh.. Enniskillen I think.. could be wrong.

In any case he was a super hard working player and an absolute gentleman. Know nothing about him as a manager or coach.

[SwanVsDalton]

I don't think Tom Mohan is from Donegal.. He was from Fermanagh.. Enniskillen I think.. could be wrong.

In any case he was a super hard working player and an absolute gentleman. Know nothing about him as a manager or coach.

Yup definitely Fermanagh, think Enniskillen is right.

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across this piece by Emmet Malone and going to post it here as UEFA's possible stance-shift could have implications for the future of the game in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0901/1224323462066.html


CROSS-BORDER LEAGUES: UEFA PRESIDENT Michel Platini said yesterday that depending on how an experiment with the women’s senior game in Belgium and the Netherlands turns out, the organisation could change its stance on cross-Border leagues over the coming seasons, something that could have enormous implications for the future of the Airtricity League.

A shift in policy would open the door to initiatives like the Celtic League proposal, a competition involving leading clubs from the likes of Ireland (North and South), Scotland and Wales, that was floated a few years ago but which failed to gain the necessary support, in part because of the lack of Uefa approval and fear that the status of the participating countries’ separate national teams might be undermined.

Now, however, with an increasing number of leagues struggling due to the international financial climate and many lacking the depth required to make them genuinely competitive, Platini has said a major change in policy might be only a few years away.

As part of their attempt to assess the implications of permitting difficult leagues to merge at the highest level, Uefa has sanctioned the women’s senior league in Belgium and the Netherlands to be played on a cross-border basis, with the leading teams from each country at the end of the campaign progressing to the Champions League.

At present the BeNe League project is intended to run for three years after which, Platini says, it will be assessed and a wider discussion can take place on the desirability of merging leagues elsewhere across Europe.

[gastric]

Just came across this piece by Emmet Malone and going to post it here as UEFA's possible stance-shift could have implications for the future of the game in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0901/1224323462066.html

This policy excites me and could give domestic football the shot in the arm it needs so badly. While many will criticise me for making the comparison, rugby was dragged kicking and screaming into the professional age and nearly despite itself has become an example for what is possible in sport in Ireland, in terms of marketing and financial stability.

Hopefully, the FAI will learn from this and ensure that football in Ireland has a long and successful future.

[Stuttgart88]

I still think rugby is an unfair comparison, although it's obviously a successful and commendable model. Our rugby players earn as good a living here as they could virtually anywhere, especially given the tax breaks they get by playing here for a long time. In football, there are dozens of levels in close proximity where pay is higher so the temptation is always there for LOI clubs to overpay. The sheer scale of the money and ecosystem of football is almost guaranteed to breed financial instability, and at all levels. Marketing is easier too when you have Europe's best players on your doorstep.

Anyway, the FAI - if they have any staff left - should be calling a meeting next week to devise an idea of how they'd respond to this opportunity and start contingency planning.

It's a fascinating discussion point. What would happen to domestic clubs not involved in the new-look league, how would clubs qualify for European competition etc...

Here's an interesting artiucle from 2009 when Platini was talking about a Belgian / Dutch merger and a Balkan-wide league.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/mar/23/leander-schaerlaeckens-dutch-belgian-leagues-merge

[gastric]

I still think rugby is an unfair comparison, although it's obviously a successful and commendable model. Our rugby players earn as good a living here as they could virtually anywhere, especially given the tax breaks they get by playing here for a long time. In football, there are dozens of levels in close proximity where pay is higher so the temptation is always there for LOI clubs to overpay. The sheer scale of the money and ecosystem of football is almost guaranteed to breed financial instability, and at all levels. Marketing is easier too when you have Europe's best players on your doorstep.

Anyway, the FAI - if they have any staff left - should be calling a meeting next week to devise an idea of how they'd respond to this opportunity and start contingency planning.

It's a fascinating discussion point. What would happen to domestic clubs not involved in the new-look league, how would clubs qualify for European competition etc...

Here's an interesting artiucle from 2009 when Platini was talking about a Belgian / Dutch merger and a Balkan-wide league.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/mar/23/leander-schaerlaeckens-dutch-belgian-leagues-merge

Stutts, I completely agree with you about how fascinating a discussion such a possibility creates. In terms of the rugby model, the point I was making was that rugby was successful more by chance than by any plan by the IRFU, and the FAI needs to ensure it is more professional in approach ( and as you alluded to, this may not happen!) What the FAI can learn from the IRFU is that effective marketing is essential in the Irish market and that financial stability should be at the heart of any future plans. TBH, I don't feel confident that the present regime have the necessary nous to make this happen and this certainly worries me.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought this recent Paul Rowan piece was very good:

Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City are all in action today and not a single Irish player is to be found in their ranks. John Devine, who was part of the Arsenal team in the early 1980s that had seven regulars who were either Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland internationals, was remembering those days last week. "We'd be looking at each other across the pitch and there would be three or four on each side and you would be playing for Ireland with them the following Wednesday night. We'd in the players' lounge after the game and we would be discussing going home to play for our country."

Thankfully, Devine doesn't have too much time for nostalgia and instead is trying to do something about the problem. For a start, while he accepts that the Premier League boom means that clubs have inevitably expanded their horizons beyond these islands and into Europe and beyond, he will not countenance any talk that Ireland is no longer capable of producing players of the calibre of Ronnie Whelan, Liam Brady and Frank Stapleton.

We cling on to the hope that the Manchester United starlet Robbie Brady can make the grade, but if he does that may only succeed in masking the problem further.

"The markets have opened up, but that is no excuse for not developing technically good players," Devine says. "It's very obvious that having no Irish participation in those major games means there is something radically wrong. We are not producing players with the right technical skills to prosper at the higher levels of the game.

"The one thing I would like emphasise, there will always be somebody who will mention Robert Brady or somebody. I remember working with Robert as a 10-year-old, but these guys are the exception to the rule. They have the natural ability. The [Damien] Duffs of this world will come through in spite of, rather than because of the system."

As well as tuning into Arsenal's game against Manchester City this afternoon, Devine has just set up a pilot scheme for the South Dublin Football League with three v three and four v four non-competitive games for seven and eight-year-olds. Non-competitive means scores aren't kept or points won.

By having three of these games on a normal-sized seven-a-side pitch, it allows 30 children play football as opposed to the normal 14, with subs not getting games. The emphasis is on passing, control, dribbling and awareness.

Devine successfully introduced this format when Manchester United''s Academy Director of youth development in Ireland in the 1990s for 10 years, but up till now his methods have been shunned by the powerful Dublin schoolboy leagues.

"We are screaming and shouting at kids from the sidelines at the age of seven, eight and nine, which is a form of child abuse," Devine says. "I respect the volunteers, but the powers-that-be have to change the structures. It has to come from the top. We need age-appropriate games for children to produce technically gifted players. If we embraced it for four or five years with the Irish spirit that we have we would compete with anybody and the kids will make a big impact on the British game as well."

Some other changes are afoot. The North Dublin Schoolboys League, in which about 12,500 children play in every week, is also taking tentative steps towards adopting the models which Germany and Spain have proven works and which the English FA are also now rolling out nationwide. In the NDSL's case they have introduced non-competitive football up to the age of 12, with five-aside for eight-year-olds graduating to nine-a-side for 12-yearolds, playing on smaller pitches with smaller goals.

"It is just a pity that maybe the SFAI don't take that on board up to the age of 12 years of age. It's still win at all costs," says the NDSL secretary Tony Gaines.

It is the Dublin & District Schoolboys League which has been most resistant to meaningful change and given that they pride themselves on being the largest schoolboy league in Europe, with 20,000 playing members, that represents a serious problem.

Their under-12s still play 11-a-side on full-size pitches with competitive football kicking in at under-nine level. They play seven-a-side from under eight to under 10 level, with three substitutes who must get game time, but abuses of that rule are reported as widespread by some coaches who prefer to notch up a victory rather than give all the children a chance. The "rule" is only a guideline.

What's clear is the lack of any central policy towards the schoolboy league structure in Dublin and around the country. When he tried to tackle this issue Wim Koevermans, the former FAI High Performance Director met a wall of resistance from a league which jealously guards its independence and still has a strong constituency amongst parents and coaches for maintaining its competitive structure.

Some of those who come from the street football school of hard knocks will also be resistant to change. But the street model was never a bad one; two against two, five against five, you name it, it was played. Clearly though the way forward now that children's football is more formalised and restricted is towards smaller teams, smaller goals and smaller pitches and if competitive football doesn't kick in till children are 13 or 14, then that is more than time enough.

What happened in the summer in Poland clearly showed the need for schoolboys' football to emerge from its survival of the fittest mentality and if it didn't, for some sort of national structure to be imposed. "It was mindboggling," says Devine. "It hurt to watch."

The show moves on further today and it's about time to start catching up.

[Bungle]

I thought this recent Paul Rowan piece was very good:

Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City are all in action today and not a single Irish player is to be found in their ranks. John Devine, who was part of the Arsenal team in the early 1980s that had seven regulars who were either Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland internationals, was remembering those days last week. "We'd be looking at each other across the pitch and there would be three or four on each side and you would be playing for Ireland with them the following Wednesday night. We'd in the players' lounge after the game and we would be discussing going home to play for our country."

Thankfully, Devine doesn't have too much time for nostalgia and instead is trying to do something about the problem. For a start, while he accepts that the Premier League boom means that clubs have inevitably expanded their horizons beyond these islands and into Europe and beyond, he will not countenance any talk that Ireland is no longer capable of producing players of the calibre of Ronnie Whelan, Liam Brady and Frank Stapleton.

We cling on to the hope that the Manchester United starlet Robbie Brady can make the grade, but if he does that may only succeed in masking the problem further.

"The markets have opened up, but that is no excuse for not developing technically good players," Devine says. "It's very obvious that having no Irish participation in those major games means there is something radically wrong. We are not producing players with the right technical skills to prosper at the higher levels of the game.

"The one thing I would like emphasise, there will always be somebody who will mention Robert Brady or somebody. I remember working with Robert as a 10-year-old, but these guys are the exception to the rule. They have the natural ability. The [Damien] Duffs of this world will come through in spite of, rather than because of the system."

As well as tuning into Arsenal's game against Manchester City this afternoon, Devine has just set up a pilot scheme for the South Dublin Football League with three v three and four v four non-competitive games for seven and eight-year-olds. Non-competitive means scores aren't kept or points won.

By having three of these games on a normal-sized seven-a-side pitch, it allows 30 children play football as opposed to the normal 14, with subs not getting games. The emphasis is on passing, control, dribbling and awareness.

Devine successfully introduced this format when Manchester United''s Academy Director of youth development in Ireland in the 1990s for 10 years, but up till now his methods have been shunned by the powerful Dublin schoolboy leagues.

"We are screaming and shouting at kids from the sidelines at the age of seven, eight and nine, which is a form of child abuse," Devine says. "I respect the volunteers, but the powers-that-be have to change the structures. It has to come from the top. We need age-appropriate games for children to produce technically gifted players. If we embraced it for four or five years with the Irish spirit that we have we would compete with anybody and the kids will make a big impact on the British game as well."

Some other changes are afoot. The North Dublin Schoolboys League, in which about 12,500 children play in every week, is also taking tentative steps towards adopting the models which Germany and Spain have proven works and which the English FA are also now rolling out nationwide. In the NDSL's case they have introduced non-competitive football up to the age of 12, with five-aside for eight-year-olds graduating to nine-a-side for 12-yearolds, playing on smaller pitches with smaller goals.

"It is just a pity that maybe the SFAI don't take that on board up to the age of 12 years of age. It's still win at all costs," says the NDSL secretary Tony Gaines.

It is the Dublin & District Schoolboys League which has been most resistant to meaningful change and given that they pride themselves on being the largest schoolboy league in Europe, with 20,000 playing members, that represents a serious problem.

Their under-12s still play 11-a-side on full-size pitches with competitive football kicking in at under-nine level. They play seven-a-side from under eight to under 10 level, with three substitutes who must get game time, but abuses of that rule are reported as widespread by some coaches who prefer to notch up a victory rather than give all the children a chance. The "rule" is only a guideline.

What's clear is the lack of any central policy towards the schoolboy league structure in Dublin and around the country. When he tried to tackle this issue Wim Koevermans, the former FAI High Performance Director met a wall of resistance from a league which jealously guards its independence and still has a strong constituency amongst parents and coaches for maintaining its competitive structure.

Some of those who come from the street football school of hard knocks will also be resistant to change. But the street model was never a bad one; two against two, five against five, you name it, it was played. Clearly though the way forward now that children's football is more formalised and restricted is towards smaller teams, smaller goals and smaller pitches and if competitive football doesn't kick in till children are 13 or 14, then that is more than time enough.

What happened in the summer in Poland clearly showed the need for schoolboys' football to emerge from its survival of the fittest mentality and if it didn't, for some sort of national structure to be imposed. "It was mindboggling," says Devine. "It hurt to watch."

The show moves on further today and it's about time to start catching up.

Thanks for that piece. Really interesting and alot of valid points.

It's funny but after the Spain game, one of my mates who has been a schoolboy coach said to me that while the 4-0 drubbing might have a massive effect on the self-esteem of our players at all levels in the short-medium term, it might be the best thing for the long-term growth of the game to have us shown up so badly. Maybe he will be proved right, but it is sad that the DDSL are not willing to listen to suggestions from guys who have played or have been involved at a high level.

[bawn79]

This policy excites me and could give domestic football the shot in the arm it needs so badly. While many will criticise me for making the comparison, rugby was dragged kicking and screaming into the professional age and nearly despite itself has become an example for what is possible in sport in Ireland, in terms of marketing and financial stability.

Hopefully, the FAI will learn from this and ensure that football in Ireland has a long and successful future.

I'm kinda surprised this hasn't got more coverage. This pretty much gives the green-light to a Celtic League. I think this is the only way to go forward with a professional model in Ireland.

Should this article be a thread in it own right?

[Stuttgart88]

Another article on the same theme as John Devine, www.thecoachdiary.com etc.

http://footblogball.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/dion-fanning-irelands-lost-generations/

[DannyInvincible]

A recent Futbol Mundial feature on the state of the game in Ireland:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pnX48JoA_Pk

[DannyInvincible]

Thought I'd post this here; an insightful article on the League of Ireland's "conveyor belt" of talent in spite of the many hurdles its clubs have to overcome: http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/sport/irishfootball/4733542/Conveyor-belt.html


IF Giovanni Trapattoni is to be believed, ‘there is no league in Ireland’.

Any manager in Britain worth his salt knows better because the domestic game has provided a conveyor belt of talent across the Irish Sea.

SunSport has trawled through the squad lists of the 92 English league and 12 SPL clubs to assess just how big an exporting market the League of Ireland has been.

And our figures show there are a staggering SIXTY-ONE players on the books of 48 different clubs.

....

Irish exports

PREMIER LEAGUE (11)

ASTON VILLA: Enda Stevens (UCD/St Pat’s/ Shamrock Rov).

EVERTON: Séamus Coleman* (Sligo Rov), Ben McLaughlin (Dundalk).

NORWICH CITY: Wes Hoolahan* (Shelbourne).

QPR: Brian Murphy (Bohemians).

READING: Noel Hunt* (Shamrock Rov/Waterford Utd), Karl Sheppard (Galway Utd/Shamrock Rov), Pierce Sweeney (Bray Wands).

SUNDERLAND: James McClean* (Derry City).

WEST BROM: Shane Long* (Cork City).

WEST HAM: Sean Maguire (Waterford Utd).

CHAMPIONSHIP (17)

BIRMINGHAM CITY: Keith Fahey* (Drogheda Utd/St Pat’s).

BRIGHTON & HOVE ALBION: Gary Dicker (UCD).

BURNLEY: Daniel Lafferty** (Derry City).

CHARLTON ATHLETIC: Kevin Feely (Bohemians).

CRYSTAL PALACE: Damien Delaney* (Cork City).

DERBY COUNTY: Conor Sammon (UCD/Derry City).

HULL CITY: David Meyler* (Cork City), Stephen Quinn (St Pat’s).

IPSWICH TOWN: Daryl Murphy* (Waterford Utd).

MILLWALL: David Forde* (Galway Utd/Derry City).

NOTTINGHAM FOREST: Stephen McLaughlin (Finn Harps/Derry City).

PETERBOROUGH UTD: Daniel Kearns (Dundalk).

SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY: Paul Corry (UCD).

WOLVES: Matt Doherty (Bohemians), Kevin Doyle* (St Pat’s/Cork City), Aaron McCarey (Monaghan Utd) Stephen Ward* (Bohemians).

LEAGUE ONE (13)

BRENTFORD: Jonathan Douglas* (Monaghan Utd).

COVENTRY CITY: Roy O’Donovan (Cork City).

DONCASTER ROVERS: Paul Keegan (Drogheda Utd/Bohemians).

LEYTON ORIENT: Leon McSweeney (Cork City), David Mooney (Shamrock Rov/Longford Town/Cork City).

MK DONS: Shaun Williams (Drogheda Utd/ Dundalk/Finn Harps/Sporting Fingal), Jay O’Shea (Bray Wands/Galway Utd).

PRESTON: Graham Cummins (Cork City).

SCUNTHORPE UTD: Jordan Keegan (St Pat’s/Monaghan Utd).

SHREWSBURY TOWN: Dave McAllister (Drogheda Utd/Shelbourne/St Pat’s).

STEVENAGE FC: Don Cowan (Shamrock Rovers/Longford Town).

YEOVIL TOWN: Paddy Madden (Shelbourne/Bohemians), Kevin Dawson (Sporting Fingal/Shelbourne).

LEAGUE TWO (9)

ACCRINGTON STANLEY: Padraig Amond (Shamrock Rov/Kildare County/Sligo Rovers).

BRADFORD CITY: Carl McHugh (Dundalk).

BRISTOL ROVERS: Mark McChrystal (Derry City).

BURTON ALBION: John McGrath (Limerick).

CHELTENHAM TOWN: Alan Bennett* (Cork City).

EXETER CITY: John O’Flynn (Cork City), Jimmy Keohane (Wexford Youths).

ROCHDALE: Brian Barry-Murphy (Cork City).

SOUTHEND UTD: Graham Coughlan (Bray Wanderers).

SPL (11)

ABERDEEN: Niall McGinn** (Derry).

CELTIC: Paddy McCourt** (Shamrock Rov/Derry City).

DUNDEE UTD: Sean Dillon (Longford/Shelbourne), Richie Ryan (Sligo Rov).

HIBERNIAN: Gary Deegan (Shelbourne/ Kilkenny City/Longford Town/Galway Utd/Bohemians), Eoin Doyle (Shamrock Rov/Sligo Rov).

INVERNESS CT: Richie Foran (St Pat’s/Shels/Home Farm), Conor Pepper (St Pat’s).

ROSS COUNTY: Sam Morrow (Derry City).

ST JOHNSTONE: Alan Mannus** (Shamrock Rov).

ST MIRREN: Graham Carey (Bohemians).

TOTAL: 61.

* Ireland internationals; ** Northern Ireland internationals.

TOP EXPORTERS:

11: Cork City (old club & new). 9: Derry City (old club & new), Shamrock Rovers. 8: Bohemians, St Pat’s. 7: Shelbourne. 4: Drogheda Utd, Dundalk, Galway Utd*, Longford Town, Sligo Rovers, UCD. 3: Bray Wanderers, Monaghan Utd*, Waterford Utd. 2: Finn Harps, Sporting Fingal. 1: Home Farm*, Kildare County*, Kilkenny City* Limerick FC, Wexford Youths. *no longer a league club

[tetsujin1979]

Fair point, but some of those are a stretch, at best. Pierce Sweeney hasn't played a game at senior level for Reading, apart from a friendly against Bray that was part of the transfer deal. The numbers of those that would be considered genuined international standard players is much, much shorter.
Did Graham Carey start at Bohemians, or was he only on loan there?

[osarusan]

Not sure if John McGrath played for Limerick and if he did, it was his first time at an Irish senior club, when he was about 27. Alan Mannus had 10 years at Linfield before coming to Rovers.

It's a list of players with English clubs that at some point played/were on the books at LOI clubs. It might come as a surprise to non-LOI fans that there are this number of ex-LOI players, but what's being implied (in my opinion) is that the players on the list all learned their trade in the LOI, which isn't the case for all of them.

[tetsujin1979]

Not sure if John McGrath played for Limerick and if he did, it was his first time at an Irish senior club, when he was about 27.He did - http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/irish/2005/0830/195851-limerickfc/ - but he only played a handful of games before moving back to the UK.

Alan Mannus had 10 years at Linfield before coming to Rovers.

It's a list of players with English clubs that at some point played/were on the books at LOI clubs. It might come as a surprise to non-LOI fans that there are this number of ex-LOI players, but what's being implied (in my opinion) is that the players on the list all learned their trade in the LOI, which isn't the case for all of them.
sorry, that's what I meant to, reading back through the original post, I could have meant anything!

[SkStu]

Fair point, but some of those are a stretch, at best. Pierce Sweeney hasn't played a game at senior level for Reading, apart from a friendly against Bray that was part of the transfer deal. The numbers of those that would be considered genuined international standard players is much, much shorter.
Did Graham Carey start at Bohemians, or was he only on loan there?

He was on loan from Celtic and played a lot of games for us. He made his first start in competitive senior football for Bohs.

[Charlie Darwin]

Fair point, but some of those are a stretch, at best. Pierce Sweeney hasn't played a game at senior level for Reading, apart from a friendly against Bray that was part of the transfer deal. The numbers of those that would be considered genuined international standard players is much, much shorter.
Did Graham Carey start at Bohemians, or was he only on loan there?
Does it matter if they're not international-standard? I don't know how many Irish players there are in the same leagues who bypassed the LOI and succeeded in England, but I'd be willing to bet it's lower than 61.

[tetsujin1979]

Does it matter if they're not international-standard? I don't know how many Irish players there are in the same leagues who bypassed the LOI and succeeded in England, but I'd be willing to bet it's lower than 61.
There isn't 61 players in that list that you can say have succeeded in England either. Sweeney and McLaughlin, for example.