Where to from now....

[BonnieShels]

Hopefully

[Murfinator]

Upon reflection I think the spine of our team isn't as diabolically bad as it may seem. The stats for Duff, McGeady and Doyle are actually quite good but they weren't in positions on the pitch where they could do some damage frequently enough. Thinking realistically along the assumption that Trap isn't going to overhaul his system to a 4-5-1 there are some simple chances he could make to the current formula which would make it a lot better.

The 3 key changes we need to make are in two areas of the pitch. Full backs and centre mid. Our problems begun and ended here. O'Shea and Ward cannot distribute adequately from the back and were the prime culprits for losing possession. The other is centre mids never showing for the ball, particularly Whelan who was both rarely a receiver for forward passes and had a poor passing rate in general. His presence is paradoxical in that he's supposed to break up dangerous attacking situations and yet the pressure he puts on FBs for not being an outlet and his poor passing in general means he's causing more danger then preventing.

I have no idea who the solutions are but if we change nothing else we need alternatives to JOS, Ward and Whelan. If we start a) retaining possession after distributing from out back 4, b) retain possesion for longer periods and c) actually play our front 4 into the game to give them a chance we'll be doing something positive.
Coleman, Clark and Gibson come to mind (if Gibson can play in a 2). I hope nobody retires, we need to create competition for positions. Retirements and replacing them with younger players is just switching the chosen 11 to different people, same problem. Involve them all, rotate and pick on form.

[tricky_colour]

Just been watching some of the first half again, we did really well a lot of the time, we were actually looking
like a pretty decent side, I mean my God we were in the Italian half!! (must have been a few nose bleeds for some that far up the pitch).
There was a dreadful cross-field back pass from Whelan which got cut out and lead on to the goal.
I am always against back passes generally and also passing across your own goal, it has to be a 100% certainty.
There was another option on an attacking ball to Andrews in the centre, but we were just to negative to even try it.
Too defensive in mentality and of course knocking the ball around in front of your own goal is not really my idea of
good defence. Even if the ball to Andrews had came to nothing at least it is in their half and time to press and get it back.
Maybe we just got tired? Also we could actually have gone on and got a goal from a forward pass instead it was a back
pass and a goal against us. Make the opposition run back, not yourselves!!
The ref was also biased. We were not that bad really, just few incidents changed the game.
I'd put Wes Hoolahan in midfield he is a good short passer, and it doesn't matter if you are only 5'6 in midfield.

[tricky_colour]

Wes Hoolahan pass success 86.1 only beaten by Duff, but he has twice as many goals and assist as Duff.
Naturally he never got a game.
Give him a sun tan and he woudl not look amiss in the Spanish side!!

[samhaydenjr]

I see Enda Kenny is calling for an AI team, using the flawed logic that because our rugby team is a top 8 team then our footy team is bound to improve markedly too (OK, maybe a slightly over cynical interpretation of what he said). Here's something for him though: successive governments have never shown any interest in funding or supporting Irish football. Maybe you should start there before spouting rubbish about something you know little about.

I thought that between Gibson, Wilson, Duffy and McLean, we already had created an AI Team - we just did it by stealth

[geysir]

Just been watching some of the first half again, we did really well a lot of the time, we were actually looking
like a pretty decent side, I mean my God we were in the Italian half!! (must have been a few nose bleeds for some that far up the pitch).
In the 30c heat, Prandelli let us burn out, he kept Pirlo deep. Italy allowed us the space/played a game where we would burn out.

There was a dreadful cross-field back pass from Whelan which got cut out and lead on to the goal.
I am always against back passes generally and also passing across your own goal, it has to be a 100% certainty.
Italy put more pressure after 30 minutes when we were starting to wilt, forced us to make mistakes and/or be ready to pounce when we made the mistake.
Italy's first goal was the result of 30 minutes of football, not just one or five mistakes in a row.



I'd put Wes Hoolahan in midfield he is a good short passer, and it doesn't matter if you are only 5'6 in midfield.
If you have a player like Hoolahan in front of midfield (and I wouldn't have him anywhere else) then you would also need to have a player like Gibson/Fahey in your team to get the ball to him and we'd need to play with only one winger,with Duff fading out - one of McClean or McGeady. Adopt a new principle of sacrificing a good player in one position in order to play a decent player in another position.

[brine3]

It wasn't anywhere near 30 degrees in Poznan, I don't think.

[geysir]

Let's say, I have not seen an Italian sweat so much after 5 minutes. Players were gulping water, dripping with sweat in the early stages.

[brine3]

Some numbers:

F12 A12. Our goal difference record at major tournaments up to last month.

F13 A21. Our current goal difference record at major tournaments.

1969. The last time an Ireland team was beaten by four goals in a competitive match.

The one thing the Ireland team always had going for it is that we were difficult to beat. We had some pride. Nobody wanted to play us. People will be lining up to play us now.

Our captain was on TV saying quite casually that "we have to just hold up our hands and accept that we were beaten by a better team." I can't imagine previous Ireland captains talking such crap.

A total sea change in mentality, tactics and personel is required. Nobody is asking us to beat Spain. Our to even get out of groups like these. We just don't want to be whipping boys of the tournament. Croatia are out of the tournament, but at least they played some football.

[Murfinator]

We don't have a team of particularly strong figures anymore to really inspire our teams into that kind of resistance. Richard Dunne comes to mind, Keith Andrews stood up as well but who else? Hamann spoke about the Dutch side as too many chiefs, not enough indians. I think we had the same problem in reverse. Could have done with Kilbanes presence and experience in retrospect.

[Wolfie]

A new team / squad can be built around Westwood, Henderson, St. Ledger, Pearce, Coleman, Cunningham, Wilson, Clark, Gibson, McClean, Meyler, Hoolahan, Doyle, Long, Walters, McCarthy and some others and with a ballsy manager - right now I'm going all nostalgic for Mick.

Above all we really need a few U21s to break into EPL first teams. Mason, Hendrick, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham, Henderson - I'm talking about you!

Chris McCann could be given a chance within Midfield also?? Weren't Swansea linked with some interest in him recently enough?? Sometimes, its the way of things that players are only considered when they make the move to a bigger club.

[the bear]

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------Wolves

[Diarmo]

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------Wolves

Very true. And the changes we need will read clubs like: Wigan, Norwich, etc.

[Wolfie]

Sweeping change can't and won't happen between now and the Autumn.

That said, I'd be interested to see if Stephen Reid could be brought back into the fold at Full Back, as opposed to Midfield. Straight away, he's a viable and experienced option who won't be afraid to supply midfield - if he's permitted.

Coleman should be blooded with priority.

Whelan needs to make way - as mentioned, I'd tentatively like to see McCann get a chance in August.

You'll remember, Whelan himself was fast tracked into the First eleven (as was St Ledger, Lawrence and Ward at certain points).




I'd start McClean on the left wing and I'd switch Duff to right wing. He rotates wings in games already so could cope with right wing deployment.

[Stuttgart88]

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------WolvesMost better than Denmark though?

[Wolfie]

Some technical difficulties there. Where was I???

Ah yes, as mentioned sweeping change won't happen. McCarthy needs to be finally utilized to the full in the course of this campaign.

Up front - Keane to be replaced by Long. Form player starts between Walters and Doyle if we persist with 4-4-2.

[the bear]

would denmark not have lots of champions league experience and title winners from FC copehagen. kjarr at roma, eriksen at ajax, does bendtner still belong to arsenal?

anyway they were knocked out as well

[SkStu]

Danes starting 11 v. Holland. Put it in as a 442 but the principle remains. Far superior in my opinion...

-------------------------Evian

Roma------Liverpool------AZ Alkmaar-----FC Copenhagen

VfB Stuttgart---------Ajax------Club Brugge-------Brondby

---------------Arsenal------Brondby

Almost every player playing regular European footie and for good teams in a wide variety of top divisions.

[the bear]

from what ive heard of them kjaer and eriksen are tipped to become worldclas as well

[SkStu]

I also think Krohn-Dehli will make a move. He was a joy to watch at times.

[CraftyToePoke]

would denmark not have lots of champions league experience and title winners from FC copehagen. kjarr at roma, eriksen at ajax, does bendtner still belong to arsenal?

anyway they were knocked out as well

Compare and contrast at your leisure : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012_squads#Denmark

I think overall our squads club stature compares favourably with the Danes, and when you compare how they actually played, they came within 15 mins and one goal of progressing in a group with Germany, Holland & Portugal in it, and they type of football they played, clever and entertaining, well, there is no comparison at all, sadly.

[the bear]

I would say that denmark have better clubs for their first 11 than us. The remainder of their squad is not as strong as our remainder then. This doesn't necessarily even out though as only 11 men can play at a time.

1 thing that stood out there though is they have 7 homebased players in their squad. Could a few LOI players have been included in our squad? The rovers lads even had european experience which not a lot of our squad have this year. It would certainly give the league a lift if nothing else. Why not bring a few lads along to every squad even if there is no intention of playing them initially? Especially homebased matches where all the FAI would be forking out would be bus fare to Malahide.

[CraftyToePoke]

You say stronger starting eleven, and I'd agree broadly, just. However, take their Portugal encounter, when they played their way back in from 2-0 behind, their midfield naturally being key in this and they had in the middle, an FC Midtjylland a Club Brugge a Brondby and briefly NEC Nijmegen (albeit he will be an Ajax player for the coming season, but he came on on 90 mins) players, knocking it properly around in the middle third.

Yet our Spartak Moscow, Fulham, Stoke and West Brom (three mid table or above EPL clubs) quartet cant even come get it from the full backs, or our full backs roll it into them for that matter. I struggle to accept this.

Their younger players, the less heralded home based ones are probably their best young talent, their future, and fair play they brought them along for the exposure if not game time. It will stand to them. Our long term future players are somewhere in the E.P.L. academy system, and consequently it's in the lap of the Gods as far as influence on them goes. This is where the Danes really trump us.

In any event, players we will come to depend on almost immediately, and will be seen as vital of we make the next world cup were nowhere to be seen in our squad, we had room for people like Hunt, Green and McShane though.

[DotTV]

The big difference for us though is that most of our players not only play with teams in the lower end of the English Premier, they are not even regular starters!

[theworm2345]

I have tried to hold off commenting and tried to put this tournament in perspective. Prior to this June, through four major tournaments we'd only lost 4 matches with a goal difference of -5 in those matches (I don't count Spain in '02). To have suggested two weeks ago what just happened would occur would have seemed beyond pessimistic. I don't want to rush to a judgment, but our record and performances under Trap against teams ranked higher than us in a group leaves me with dread for the upcoming campaign. Yes, we've got 7 points from 8 matches against those teams (and perhaps should've had more away to Slovakia and at home to Italy, though for Italy that match was pretty much academic), but when you see the likes of Cyprus, Montenegro, and Armenia performing similarly well it takes the gloss off. Even Stan got results against Germany and the Czechs at home and we actually beat Slovakia under him (and like those aforementioned teams results against the "lesser" teams let him down). I don't really recall the away match in Germany -- just Podolski's deflected goal -- but I don't believe we were dominated nearly as bad as we were in Moscow or any of the past three matches. I don't know that Trap needs to go, but if not I think the team needs a complete overhaul (which I'm not sure Trap is willing to do) because, to be blunt, our performance at Euro 2012 was a disgrace.

[geysir]

The big difference for us though is that most of our players not only play with teams in the lower end of the English Premier, they are not even regular starters!
It's one difference but it doesn't explain everything, e.g. why players from similar and lower standard clubs that play for other national teams like Norway/Sweden/Denmark can play at Euro finals and be technically proficient, comfortable and acquainted with their role in the team

[brine3]

Their younger players, the less heralded home based ones are probably their best young talent, their future, and fair play they brought them along for the exposure if not game time. It will stand to them. Our long term future players are somewhere is in the E.P.L. academy system, and consequently it's in the lap of the Gods as far as influence on them goes. This is where the Danes really trump us.

Yep, James McCarthy's strides forward as a player and the fact that he's playing under Martinez are probably related. Imagine if he had ended up playing for somebody like Neil Warnock instead.

We are too dependent on the EPL and have little control over the development of our players.

[legendz]

If Trap was to walk away, only way with the contract he is on as the FAI won't pay up, it'd be interesting to see if Redknapp would take on the job as Dunphy suggested.

[DotTV]

This is from Trap in the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/irish-news/trapattoni-to-take-lessons-of-dismal-euro-2012-into-the-quest-for-brazil-in-2014-3144637.htm

He said: "There are many names. We have three, four, five - McClean, for example, James McCarthy is another, and he would allow us to change the system.
"McCarthy plays in a different position. We have also Gibson, who is already here. We have others at this moment and we follow them.
"Now we can try another system because I need to know they can play in this system."

He has mentioned McCarthy in this manner before and looks like he is suggesting building the midfield around him and probably changing to a 5 man midfield. Also, it shows how relucatant he was to change the system during the last campaign.
I think if he can introduce this system it will also allow him to have the 4-4-2 system as a fall back so we are not so one dimensional.

A lone striker such as Long or Walters, with McCarthy behind and any two of Gibson/Whelan/Andrews holding with MacLean and McGeady/Coleman on the flanks might work. We need some ball players in the middle of the park.

[DotTV]

It's one difference but it doesn't explain everything, e.g. why players from similar and lower standard clubs that play for other national teams like Norway/Sweden/Denmark can play at Euro finals and be technically proficient, comfortable and acquainted with their role in the team

I think the technical proficiency comes from the football philosophy they grow up with in those countries. (maybe not Norway, but Sweden and Denmark for sure).
Good to see the FAI using Dutch coaches now. Think we need to move away from our reliance on the British football system and look more to the continent.

Look at rugby. The IRFU brought in coaches from the southern hemisphere to develop the game and over time Irish coaches have learned from them, adapted their own style and it's brought success.

[Stuttgart88]

Are the FAI using Dutch coaches?

We'll all be a bunch of technically gifted egotistical ar$eholes in 10 years' time!

Has the IRFU hired kiwis at grass roots level or at professional level?

[bennocelt]

Just a note of warning that Dutch doesnt always exactly equal quality. Could be more Dick Ad than Johan Cryuff. I was in China when they splashed out on Arie Haan, was a total disaster, ignoring quite a few players on a very promising under 21 team

[Paddy Garcia]

On Monday night the Metro had a preview of the season to come and picked a star player for each Premiership team- I was surprised as many as 4 Irish players were identified:

McClean
Pilkington
Walters
Pearce

[Kingdom]

from what ive heard of them kjaer and eriksen are tipped to become worldclas as well

Kjaer is an excellent centrehalf, and his partnership with Agger is the template all countries should have at centre back. Eriksen has the potential to be an excellent player on the European stage.

[DotTV]

Are the FAI using Dutch coaches?

We'll all be a bunch of technically gifted egotistical ar$eholes in 10 years' time!

Has the IRFU hired kiwis at grass roots level or at professional level?

They've been involved at every level. And yes, the Dutch influence may not be the way to go!

[brine3]

Having played under many Dutch coaches myself I wouldn't say they were great. We have our own good Irish coaches in Ireland, but they never get listened too.

Interesting that Denmark is mentioned. They appointed Morten Olsen (good manager, I remember him at Ajax) as manager in 2000, and he's had 12 years in charge now. He has them playing 4-3-3 at all levels and has been given free reign to rebuild their international setup from youth to senior levels.

He failed to qualify for 2006 and 2008 but they trusted him to do the job. Now they reap the rewards.

Olsen is essentially doing twice the work that Trap is being asked to do, and you can be sure he is being paid less money than Trap. But he does it because he is Danish and loves to do it.

What Irishman do we have who is patient (possibly rules out Keane), a good manager, likes good football, is devoted to the Irish cause and is willing to rebuild the youth and international football from the bottom up? I would say Kerr, but maybe he doesn't have the authority. Olsen has 100+ caps for Denmark so has the authority.

The other question is if the FAI would ever hand over so much power. The FAI are probably the biggest enemy to the development of Irish football.

[Murfinator]

I have tried to hold off commenting and tried to put this tournament in perspective. Prior to this June, through four major tournaments we'd only lost 4 matches with a goal difference of -5 in those matches (I don't count Spain in '02). To have suggested two weeks ago what just happened would occur would have seemed beyond pessimistic. I don't want to rush to a judgment, but our record and performances under Trap against teams ranked higher than us in a group leaves me with dread for the upcoming campaign. Yes, we've got 7 points from 8 matches against those teams (and perhaps should've had more away to Slovakia and at home to Italy, though for Italy that match was pretty much academic), but when you see the likes of Cyprus, Montenegro, and Armenia performing similarly well it takes the gloss off. Even Stan got results against Germany and the Czechs at home and we actually beat Slovakia under him (and like those aforementioned teams results against the "lesser" teams let him down). I don't really recall the away match in Germany -- just Podolski's deflected goal -- but I don't believe we were dominated nearly as bad as we were in Moscow or any of the past three matches. I don't know that Trap needs to go, but if not I think the team needs a complete overhaul (which I'm not sure Trap is willing to do) because, to be blunt, our performance at Euro 2012 was a disgrace.

Looking at our team that night in 2006 I think the key difference was who we had as fullbacks and in our midfield. Carr and Finnan could distribute and Steven Reid could pass. We've missed players like those and they would have made a huge difference for us last week. I'd have sympathy with Trap though since while I'd happily identify Ward, Whelan and O'Shea as the main problems in our team its not an easy task to come up with replacements for them.

[Murfinator]

On Monday night the Metro had a preview of the season to come and picked a star player for each Premiership team- I was surprised as many as 4 Irish players were identified:

McClean
Pilkington
Walters
Pearce

2 of them have plenty of question marks over their intent to represent Ireland, I should point out....

[RiffRaff]

I'm still gutted about the championships,. Never mind us having the joint worst record, we were in my mind, easily the worst team ever at the championships. We were outclassed and against spain, we could have been luxemburg or malta, we were so poor. More that that though, I have been really disappointed to hear players say "we're not good enough" "qualifying was an achievement" "tactics and players wouldnt make any difference against those teams" - the attitude is totally defeatist. By that logic, if by any chance we do qualify for Brazil 2014, we should just pull out to save the FAI and fans money. Players should NEVER be making those comments, even if they privately feel that. O'Shea, Dunne, Given,Keane and Duff may all retire now, but even if they dont, I think we should leave them out. I'd work on developing the defence around Wilson, Clark, Duffy, Coleman, Kelly and maybe Ward and St Ledger if they get good transfer moves, and let them develop together over the next 4-5 years. The most importan thing will be to replace the defeatist attitude.

[Stuttgart88]

I've heard no excuses or defeatism from Dunne whatsoever. I don't think Keane said "we're not good enough" he said "we were not good enough", i.e., we didn't play well enough.

I think Dunne is needed still in the near term.

[Stuttgart88]

Crafty and I have been talking to each other about the merits of the Danish (population 5.5m) and Uruguayan (population 3.3m) models.

Both are of comparable population and are surrounded by giants of the world game.

As mentioned by XXX, Morten Olsen has completed control over the national teams of all ages. What other differences are there - and if there are only going to be churlish cranky remarks please refrain.

One thing that strikes me as almost unique is the number of clubs in Dublin competing for an audience. Is this holding us back? How many top flight pro clubs are in Montevideo or Copenhagen?

[paul_oshea]

Crafty and Stutts as usual talking sense. I feel the exact same, they could all retire save dunne. He is who we really need to play on as we are weakest at the back with no real leaders or experience, as was shown in the Euros.

I remember a couple of us pointed out in the past, that Trap has no real plan B. Interesting point here from Given
"“That put us back and everything you train and work for, game plans and things, kind of go out the window."
So basically he is saying our training and perparation and leetle details all came down to ensuring we didn't concede early and if that didn't happen then it all goes to pot. What a bloody joke. Seriously.

Also what is it with the Irish psyche and the arrogance to be unable to accept any responsibility whether its the recession or owing money or players not admitting individual mistakes. Given was woeful and cost us a couple of goals, Ward also. Why cant they put up their hands and say look we were well beaten around the field, but had individual mistakes not cost us a few goals, it would have been a lot tighter. And thats the fact of the matter.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't forget though Ireland also has the distraction of various other team sports as 'competition', so has a more limited pool to choose from.

And don't forget Denmark and Uruguay have also had 'naff' tournaments in the past. It's not always about punching above yer weight...

[seanfhear]

Napoleon said that no plan survived its first encounter with the enemy.

Napoleon won more battles than loads of the big names put together in his time. Admittedly it did'nt go well at Waterloo !

Anyway the Irish team having no strategy to dealing with going a goal down is comical. Any team can go a goal down sometimes due to farcical circumstances.

Trappatoni : For the sake of Horses all over Ireland say arrivividecci (?)

Horses all over Ireland are becoming nervous wrecks !

[OwlsFan]

Anyway the Irish team having no strategy to dealing with going a goal down is comical. Any team can go a goal down sometimes due to farcical circumstances.

I thought we equalised against Croatia when we went a goal down but I must have imagined that.

In the other games he had no successful strategy when going a goal down against the world champions and the former world champions but he did have a strategy. Against Spain he changed the system at half time and then conceded 3 more and against Italy he tried having 3 forwards. So forget this no Plan B rubbish which is touted everywhere. He does have a Plan B and C. They're just not successful plans :(

[Stuttgart88]

No, but being technically and tactically up to date improves chances of success / reduces chances of underperformance.

ArdeeBhoy, sure, you get good and bad and I'm not actually in the camp that believes there is a crisis (unless I can be convinced by proper reasoned argument that there is) but I think a poor showing at a tourney is as good a time as any to ask pertinent questions and examine where we can make improvements.

[paul_oshea]

. So forget this no Plan B rubbish which is touted everywhere. He does have a Plan B and C. They're just not successful plans :(

Its just the players aren't aware of any of them either :) he did change it against Italy,the system not the players, when he brought long on, and I thought it made a huge difference, and wondered why we had to wait till the end of the first third of the second half of our last game, to play some football, create some chances, and hold onto possession. That was another of my big gripes.

I think soccer in the country for now at least, still takes priority over Gaelic(plenty of examples in the current setup) when a player is good enough, and hopefully still rugby, as the smaller type players will always go towards soccer before rugby too.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure a big lad like a Jamie Heaslip is necessarily a loss to Irish football but someone like Richard Dunne could easily have been an asset to rish rugby. In some sense there's a threat.

My mate's 8 year-old had a trial at Arsenal recently. My mate is a very well polished white collar guy with a posh accent and all that and has a very good job. His son was not taken on, despite Millwall for example, being all over him.

He asked the coach why not. The coach said, look, he's good enough but I can tell from talking to you that you won't want your son to have the upbringing we'd provide him. You'd want more and better education than he'd be able to get in our system, even though we do make sure they get some.

My point here is that Jonny Sexton was never going to be a footballer but some of our footballers could be rugby players in future.

[paul_oshea]

Blame the parents thats what I say.

[geysir]

They've been involved at every level. And yes, the Dutch influence may not be the way to go!
In my lifetime, Netherlands came from nowhere to go to the top with a bullet, since then they have been in 3 WC finals and won 1 Euro cup. Not a bad record.
Is it their football coaching that turns some of their footballers into egomaniacs who on occasion bottle it, or other occasions the team totally self destructs? I doubt it. Though that doesn't mean we have to import the egomaniac coaching administrator.
I use to be astonished, for decades, that councillors, public service employees etc would go to other European countries, supposedly to observe and learn how some of the basic practical methods of public transport work. Even simple things like ticketing, a bus ticket that lasts an hour within a zone. And yet for decades nothing was actually done.
The Irish struggle with practicalities whereas countries like Denmark/Sweden/Norway can implement the necessary structures and coaching philosophies without too much fuss. Maybe some fuss and opposition from the top clubs in those countries, but eventually a common agreement was found.