Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[Metrostars]

Metrostars, the reason why the UK has 4 teams is that the game was invented there and the first international fixtures were between England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

So???

[boovidge]

So...FIFA's set up and says to the four associations..'oh..err yeah..you have to merge into one'

'fine..we won't join'

Another footballing "body" is set up which does allow the four UK sides and FIFA slips into history.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Boovidge,
FIFA are fools, but the pretext of preserving those 4 teams is hardly a reason to set up a rival organisation. And it would probably have less credibility than even FIFA!

[boovidge]

Boovidge,
FIFA are fools, but the pretext of preserving those 4 teams is hardly a reason to set up a rival organisation. And it would probably have less credibility than even FIFA!

In the early 20th century I'm not so sure.

[Not Brazil]

That was the point way up thread I made to NB, way over his head, about London or Yorkshire or Cork starting their own teams....which are as logical as a certain other side!
;)


I love the irony in that.:D

Once upon a time, there was only one football Association on the island of Ireland - the Irish Football Association.

Then, there was a breakaway Association formed.

That breakaway Association didn't like the Irish Football Association continuing to play players from throughout the 32 Counties.

They huffed and they puffed, and cried "it's not fair" in order to get it stopped.

The breakaway Association asked for a "Gentleman's Agreement" - they got it.

Many years later, the breakaway Association decided it wanted to pick players throughout the island of Ireland - the "Gentleman's Agreement" with the founding Association on the island was in tatters.

Supporters of the founding Association on the island got a tad ****ed off at this, but took the punch, and are moving on.

Now, supporters of the breakaway Association wish to see the very destruction of the founding Association.

They wonder why supporters of the founding Association want fcuk all to do with a "united" team.

:D

[Gather round]

How do you mean 'Irish involvement'? Management wise?

Er, I mean there'd be fewer Irish teams involved (as I've made clear in most of my 27 earlier posts on the thread). Or put another way, the likelihood of me having a team to support in future would fall from 100% to zero.


Arguably, the Yugoslavia teams were stronger as one and the same could arguably be said for the Soviet Union teams

Arguably indeed- although of course that wasn't my point. In the ****-taking spirit of the thread, I was suggesting that any fan supporting two or more of the Yugoslav successor countries now has up to six chances to see their teams progress. Before 1992, they didn't.


I still think our chances would be better as one, the 'reality' does not state otherwise

I've given you a real (if trite) example how it does- there are more teams from ex-Yugoslavia qualifying for competitions than there were from Yugoslavia. Doesn't your logic suggest that each of the successors would be weakened, and fall back to the level of smaller countries...like us?
More seriously, the cyclical nature of football applies more to smaller countries. In the last 10 years, Northern Ireland have produced ONE player (Jonny Evans) of the highest quality, ie good enough to play regularly at the sharp end of the Champions' League. There's no guarantee that we'll even match that in the next decade. So any notional all-Ireland side just isn't necessarily going to be significantly stronger than you are at the moment, is it?


And i would imagine the best players would be picked, regardless of what part of the island they're from

Hardly, you're likely to continue playing people from Glasgow, Birmingham, Preston and Retford, like you did last week.


I understand it's all hypothetical but it's not exactly in the realms of fantasy that Scots independence would throw up serious questions about Northern Ireland's future. I only mentioned it because NB seemed to be saying that N.I were part of the UK whether the rest of the union wanted them or not

As mentioned up-thread, William Hill have replied with odds for Scottish independence by 31.12.2012- 33/1 (ie, not happening anytime soon). There are constant serious questions about NI's future- inevitable when 42% vote for united Ireland parties. I take your point about support for the united Britain needing to be mutual, but in reality there hasn't been a single election here since 1921 in which kicking out NI was an issue- not even during 30+ years of the troublings.


But why should England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get special dispensation?

Apart from the historical precedent, when FIFA were skint after WW2, we bailed them out (with a Britain v Rest of the World game, inter alia). Part of the deal agreed with Stanley Rous (big cheese in both the English FA and FIFA at the time) was four sepearate teams in perpetuity, and ex-officio jobs in the committee that regularly reviews the laws of the game. Of course such deals can be renegotiated, and FIFA keep making noises about excluding non-sovereign countries- mainly to please Spain who are worried about losing Catalunya, Euskal and er Gibraltar). But in practice there's no threat. Hardly anyone outside the South's support cares.


I live in Connecticut. If set up the CFA and get if approved by FIFA, can I create my Connecticut team to compete in Concacaf?
Of course, although I think you may be slightly understating the difficulty in getting approval from FIFA, particularly their top man in the USA, Chuck Blazer (is that really his name?).


this COULD trigger NI seceding also, which would leave them no choice really but to unify...well, they wouldn't have to unify, be pretty daft not to though

Alternatively, we could remain united to England and Wales, or (less likely) become independent, perhaps even with the border re-drawn. There are plenty of other European countries of similar size, some of which have suffered even more political violence and economic decay in recent years. And with all due respect to the Republic, your ruined economy isn't any more of a draw to us than your football team.


I'd say you have about 15-20 years max before there is a nationalist majority.

http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.com/se...bel/Demography

The "NI" state will not exist long after that so a football team will be out of the question

As NB says above, nationalist commentators have been saying that for decades. Most analyses I've read recently suggest the population identifying themselves and their children as Catholic will peak at about 46% in the next 10 years. Not all of those people vote nationalist at the moment, who's to say what the next generation will do after that?

If there ever is a 51% nationalist-voting majority, I imagine the border would be redrawn. That's what Northern Ireland has always been for, after all.

In the 2007 assembly election Nationalists were only 42,000 votes off a majority

Nationalist parties got 41.3% of the poll, which means they were 17.4% behind non-nationalists (or about 124,000). You can't add up.

[Fixer82]

Hardly, you're likely to continue playing people from Glasgow, Birmingham, Preston and Retford, like you did last week.




you know what I meant: regardless of whether they feel more associated with the Republic or the 6 counties....

[dahamsta]

Off topic discussion moved here (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=128607). If you want to discuss something other than football, do it in the appropriate forum please. I won't be moving any further OT posts as it takes too much time, they'll be deleted.

Thanks,
adam

[livehead1]

If I was a N.I. fan I would be far more concerned at the amount of players the Republic seem to attract. Not just lads in the North who decide to play for us, but also those in England with Irish parents and grandparents.

I have a mate who was born in the North, and I think he made over 50 under-age appearances for the Republic. He was never even contacted by the North, that pretty much sums it up.

[Gather round]

If I was a N.I. fan I would be far more concerned at the amount of players the Republic seem to attract

Thanks for the concern, but I'm fairly relaxed about it for two reasons,

a) if Darren Gibson or whover has his heart set on playing for you, I'm comfortable with that (subject to the rule change which I keep suggesting, ie that playing for one national side after age 18 ties you to it thereafter)

b) I don't expect the number of players involved to be that high, for reasons previously detailed. Not least that any good schoolboy footballer's priority will probably be to get a professional contract, most likely in England. The best way to do that is to play for NI's repsresentative schools and then youth sides.


Not just lads in the North who decide to play for us, but also those in England with Irish parents and grandparents

Although personally I prefer NI players to be from the country, rather than descended from local grandparents, the reality is that we (like you) will get far more players from England than we lose to each other.


I have a mate who was born in the North, and I think he made over 50 under-age appearances for the Republic. He was never even contacted by the North, that pretty much sums it up

I don't think it does- all it sums up is an opportunity lost with one player. Just out of curiosity, who is your mate- 50 youth and U-21 is a hell of a lot, I'm assuming he went to school in NI and played for our representative sides?

Newryrep: I've sent you a PM as per Da Hamsta's posts above.

[kingdomkerry]

One United Ireland team.

Play in Dublin for next 2 campaigns (Euros and WC), play in belfast for the following campaign. ie Belfast gets every third campaign. Of course Belfast would have to build a decent stadium.

NI to develop an anthem and flag that is representative of the entire community.
When team play in dublin AnB played first followed by NI anthem.
When team play in belfast NI played followed by AnB.
Both flags flown in both cities.

Problem solved. Team will prob qualify for at least 2 WCs/euros per decade.

[livehead1]

I don't think it does- all it sums up is an opportunity lost with one player. Just out of curiosity, who is your mate- 50 youth and U-21 is a hell of a lot, I'm assuming he went to school in NI and played for our representative sides?



Don't quote me on this but I'm nearly certain his youth caps were for the Republic as I believe he was in England from around 15, I wouldn't be certain before talking to him. He's a lad who could still make it, although 26 years of age he's gone up 3 leagues this summer and was very close to becoming a regular in a championship side up until a week ago!

[Gather round]

One United Ireland team

You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.


Of course Belfast would have to build a decent stadium

We're happy to renovate our existing stadium, thanks. Alas it will only ever be a fraction the size of your two with insufficient room for your support- but as we regularly manage to beat higher-ranked teams in it, we're happy enough.


NI to develop an anthem and flag that is representative of the entire community

Ta. Got any suggestions?


Problem solved. Team will prob qualify for at least 2 WCs/euros per decade

How can you be so sure that a series of teams who've qualified ONCE for the last eight tournaments between them will improve that record four- or five-fold? It's deluded.


Don't quote me on this but I'm nearly certain his youth caps were for the Republic as I believe he was in England from around 15, I wouldn't be certain before talking to him. He's a lad who could still make it, although 26 years of age he's gone up 3 leagues this summer and was very close to becoming a regular in a championship side up until a week ago!

Tell you what, you tell us who he is and I'll tell you (from the FAI site and/ or googlepedia) how many youth caps he has.

My point was that 50 youth caps (or even youth and schools) is an impressive number. The highest I can think of off-hand is James Milner's 46 U-21 games in five years for the England side.

[gustavo]

One United Ireland team.

Play in Dublin for next 2 campaigns (Euros and WC), play in belfast for the following campaign. ie Belfast gets every third campaign. Of course Belfast would have to build a decent stadium.

NI to develop an anthem and flag that is representative of the entire community.
When team play in dublin AnB played first followed by NI anthem.
When team play in belfast NI played followed by AnB.
Both flags flown in both cities.

Problem solved. Team will prob qualify for at least 2 WCs/euros per decade.

Has you read anything the Northern guys have been saying? It would hardly be "problem solved" :rolleyes:

[dr_peepee]

Don't quote me on this but I'm nearly certain his youth caps were for the Republic as I believe he was in England from around 15, I wouldn't be certain before talking to him. He's a lad who could still make it, although 26 years of age he's gone up 3 leagues this summer and was very close to becoming a regular in a championship side up until a week ago!

Tell Saul Deeney we were asking for him!!!:D

[kingdomkerry]

[QUOTE=Gather round;1282561]You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.

Don't confuse 2nd generation Irish with their country of birth



We're happy to renovate our existing stadium, thanks. Alas it will only ever be a fraction the size of your two with insufficient room for your support- but as we regularly manage to beat higher-ranked teams in it, we're happy enough.

Sad


Ta. Got any suggestions?

No, anything that the entire community can identify with. Dont see it happen. Unionist attitude is our way or no way.


How can you be so sure that a series of teams who've qualified ONCE for the last eight tournaments between them will improve that record four- or five-fold? It's deluded.

Think about it. Everytime Ireland dont qualify they come really close. I mean if say we had evans instead of mc shane that alone could of made all the difference. Its called synergy 2+2=5 so to speak

[Gather round]

Don't confuse 2nd generation Irish with their country of birth

I haven't. All four I mentioned have grown up and spent their entire lives in Britain, have they not? As oft-repeated, I've no problem with them playing for the Republic, or anyone else they qualify for- but the point is you will presumably be able to continue playing them, and others like them, for the foreseeable future. You don't need Biggles McCartney to come on as a sub for Kilbane


Sad

Great comeback. And obviously wrong anyway. In the last two sets of qualifiers our results in our little stadium have been clearly better than yours. Size ain't everything.


Unionist attitude is our way or no way

Not so, I don't see any unionists saying 'let's abolish the South's football team'.


Everytime Ireland dont qualify they come really close

Are you on drugs? You failed to qualify for Euro 2008 by 10 points!


I mean if say we had evans instead of mc shane that alone could of made all the difference

Much as I admire Evans for both club and country, I suspect not. In our away game in Slovenia, he was at fault for both their goals in the last ten minutes, and still had time for a crude foul on their playmaker which might well have seen a red card. At home to Slovakia, he was run ragged by a man City reserve player who set up their first goal, having been one of the five senior players who broke curfew and went on the **** in Belfast before that game.

I mean, he's a good and potentially outstanding footballer. Just one. Not Cu Chulainn or Finn McCool :(


Its called synergy 2+2=5 so to speak

We've already established you can't manage basic arithmetic. I'd master that before waffling about synergies.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Gather round;1282561]
Think about it. Everytime Ireland dont qualify they come really close. I mean if say we had evans instead of mc shane that alone could of made all the difference. Its called synergy 2+2=5 so to speak

Evans is very proud to play for Northern Ireland, as will his kid brother be in the years to come.

Not surprisingly, that's because they're from Northern Ireland.

If Northern Ireland qualify for a major finals in the future - happy days.

If we don't - ah well.

Anyone from Northern Ireland who wants to take their chances of qualifying with the Republic Of Ireland - go right ahead.

[shakermaker1982]

You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.


Uncalled for. They are Irish and have the passport to prove it (assuming they are not another Tony Cascarino).

[Riddickcule]

If it works for other sports why can't it work for football?

( well riddickcule, don't you know footballs the hooligans game??)

[co. down green]

Uncalled for. They are Irish and have the passport to prove it (assuming they are not another Tony Cascarino).

Cascarino is more Irish than the North's goalkeeper Maik Taylor, at least Cas thought his grandfather was Irish :)


You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.

You would think from that comment that the North’s team was in some way different, now or in the past.

I presume you were happy enough supporting the English-German-Zambian 6 county select team that represented the North under ten years ago? No less than nine players born in England, Germany & Zambia played for the North in a European Championship qualifier in 99.

Was having 9 players born in other countries a problem for you and did you regard them as a glorified European/African select eleven?. Is it a problem for you that your current u21 side is made up of English born players like Norwood, Dudgeon, Magnay, Hodson etc…?

[Dassa]

They fear change, 1 Island = 1 Team and our prospects for qualification would be much greater. ;)

I dont fear change in the slightest, however changes that will be to my detriment am I supposed to sit back and let happen?

Everyone uses the rugby as an example but look at how its worked out,

all games in just 1 of the capital cities -Dublin

All symbols, Tricolours of one side

Anthem - Only one anthem used at home game for ireland team.

Is this realy an example of cross community unity or is it a case of this is how it is sit there and lump it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.

we regularly manage to beat higher-ranked teams in it, we're happy enough.


Er, they are all Irish citizens.

Over 50 non-Six Counties born players have represented the North since their last Finals appearance twenty-odd years ago (That must be Finals well into double figures they've missed out and counting.....), but so what.

They like numerous others, even England, have gone round casting for all and sundry.
Ade Adebola springs to mind! But at least soccer isn't as farcical as rugby and cricket in this respect where you only need 6 years residency!

As for regularly beating teams;what about all those years the North went without scoring? And once David Healy retires, where'll their goals come from? It's about consistency anyway. Iceland springs to mind!

[ArdeeBhoy]

I dont fear change in the slightest, however changes that will be to my detriment am I supposed to sit back and let happen?

Everyone uses the rugby as an example but look at how its worked out,

all games in just 1 of the capital cities -Dublin

All symbols, Tricolours of one side

Anthem - Only one anthem used at home game for ireland team.

Is this realy an example of cross community unity or is it a case of this is how it is sit there and lump it.

To be fair Dassa, people have suggested numerous ways round this, but in the main has been thrown back in our face, as If we're the IRFU or something??

Though could just be the usual 'whataboutery'.....:rolleyes:

[John83]

...But at least soccer isn't as farcical as rugby and cricket in this respect where you only need 6 years residency!...
Yeah, that could never happen in football.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D90GPSFO2.html (http://www.elhispanicnews.com/index.php?view=article&id=675%3Afifa-wants-tighter-rules-on-changing-citizenship&option=com_content&Itemid=79)

EDIT: 5 years residency in the past 9 years is enough for Irish citizenship. Then you're eligible to play for the national team. You know, like Kevin Hunt was asked about a few years back.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, that could never happen in football.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D90GPSFO2.html (http://www.elhispanicnews.com/index.php?view=article&id=675%3Afifa-wants-tighter-rules-on-changing-citizenship&option=com_content&Itemid=79)

EDIT: 5 years residency in the past 9 years is enough for Irish citizenship. Then you're eligible to play for the national team. You know, like Kevin Hunt was asked about a few years back.

Hmm. OK, but that's not widely broadcast. And wonder how many any other players would be deemed 'eligible' by such means. Currently this seems to be one of the very few things FIFA have got right, though if anyone can mess it up....

[Not Brazil]

As for regularly beating teams;what about all those years the North went without scoring? And once David Healy retires, where'll their goals come from? It's about consistency anyway. Iceland springs to mind!

Ah, the halcyon days.:D I was at every single minute of that (then) record breaking achievement. The sense of belonging was special - in the face of adversity.

Healy hasn't exactly been scoring prolifically for us for 2 years.

Whatever the solution to our goalscoring issues is, it'll be someone representing Northern Ireland that provides it.

You see, it's Northern Ireland for Northern Ireland fans - highs and lows.

The underdog tag suits us just fine. The minnow that can bite the best of them.

One day, I'll maybe see the "Holy Grail" of Northern Ireland qualify for a major Finals. I was blessed to be in Valencia in 1982, the night we beat the hosts.

Maybe, I won't see the likes again.

If we were obssessed about qualifying, we'd be prime movers for an All UK team - we're not. We vehemently oppose such a move.

Whatever our destiny, it will be as a Northern Ireland team - count on it.

Do you remember how exercised you got about "allowing choice" during the eligibility debate?

Right back at you now kid.:D

[Gather round]

Uncalled for. They are Irish and have the passport to prove it

Come on, it's hardly the elephant in the room we're not allowed to mention. I didn't claim they weren't Irish. And read back in the thread, where poster Fly claimed airily that some people (unionists, basically), WERE less Irish than others, as determined by his semi-coherent pseudo-scientific horsesh*t about quotients of Irishness and their relation to schizophrenia blah blah.

But enough of that; as oft-repeated above I've mentioned them mainly to illustrate the point that many on this thread have declined to answer, or maybe to grasp. You already have the chance to pick any player from Ireland or anyone else with one Irish grannny. You don't need to abolish our team to do it.


If it works for other sports why can't it work for football?

Pretty much for the same reason that although Bray has an esplanade, it'll never compete with Monto Carlo...


You would think from that comment that the North’s team was in some way different, now or in the past

You wouldn't if you'd bothered to read earlier in the thread. I said clearly that I prefer NI's players, as opposed to their grandparents, to have grown up here and come through school and youth sides. Mainly because having a majority of players in the side who haven't makes international football look a bit silly, in my opinion. So no, I wansn't particularly happy. Your presumption is wrong.

As also made clear above (and in other threads repeatedly) I don't see any real difference in principle between Darron Gibson playing for you, and Maik Taylor or Oliver Norwood for us.

[Predator]

More seriously, the cyclical nature of football applies more to smaller countries. In the last 10 years, Northern Ireland have produced ONE player (Jonny Evans) of the highest quality, ie good enough to play regularly at the sharp end of the Champions' League. There's no guarantee that we'll even match that in the next decade. So any notional all-Ireland side just isn't necessarily going to be significantly stronger than you are at the moment, is it?
Not significantly stronger I'll admit, but stronger nonetheless.



But enough of that; as oft-repeated above I've mentioned them mainly to illustrate the point that many on this thread have declined to answer, or maybe to grasp. You already have the chance to pick any player from Ireland or anyone else with one Irish grannny. You don't need to abolish our team to do it.The RoI team would be abolished along with the NI team in the event of an all-Ireland team. The chance is there to pick anyone from NI but obviously not everyone from NI would want to play for RoI, as you say. In the case of an all-Ireland team, people would only have one team to play for and the best players would be in the one team (bar Stephen Ireland of course!). Nothing political or tribal, just sport. It's that simple.




As also made clear above (and in other threads repeatedly) I don't see any real difference in principle between Darron Gibson playing for you, and Maik Taylor or Oliver Norwood for us.
Would you rather Taylor played for Germany and Norwood for England?

[Gather round]

The RoI team would be abolished along with the NI team in the event of an all-Ireland team

Ha ha. Do better, nobody seriously believes that. Your fellow fans both on this thread now, and if it ever happened in practice, would expect all the games in Dublin in your spanking new super-stadia, mass waving of tricolors and the Soldiers' song in honor of President Mary McNazi-hunter or successor. Just like rugby union. Not interested, thanks.


Nothing political or tribal, just sport. It's that simple

You're killing me now. Or course it's political, it's international sport. The clue's in the name.


Would you rather Taylor played for Germany and Norwood for England?

Aye, pretty much. Of course I realise this is possibly hypocritical- as I cheer them as much as the other players- and certainly eccentric, as even the biggest countries pick players who've only moved there as adults. But hey, I can live with that. With my team abolished such eccentricity would be irrelevant...

[co. down green]

Sorry Gather round, just to clarify my earlier point, you said


You've already got a united Ireland team, albeit with three Englishmen and a Scot included it's pretty much a glorified all-Britain select.

Does that mean you regard you team as being an English-German-Zambian 6 county select team during the late nineties?

[Gather round]

Aye, pretty much (although Jeff Whitley played all his schools and youth representative football in Wrexham and for the Man City academies). The difference is that I'm not suggesting abolishing England, Germany or Zambia's international sides, in the way you'd axe Northern Ireland's.

[Predator]

Ha ha. Do better, nobody seriously believes that. Your fellow fans both on this thread now, and if it ever happened in practice, would expect all the games in Dublin in your spanking new super-stadia, mass waving of tricolors and the Soldiers' song in honor of President Mary McNazi-hunter or successor. Just like rugby union. Not interested, thanks.
I've read the threads on OWC and I've seen all the mockery of the idea, don't worry. I've read some posts from posters who wouldn't expect such things to transpire in the event it happened, but Dublin has the superior infrastructure, why not make use of it?




You're killing me now. Or course it's political, it's international sport. The clue's in the name.Admittedly, I recognise that international sport is fundamentally political, but sport itself does not have to be politically driven. Would you support an all-Ireland team in the event of re-unification? Or would you boycott the idea and not support the team at all? (If you've mentioned it, forgive me for not caring enough to read back through the thread. I'm not religiously committed to foot.ie)




Aye, pretty much. Of course I realise this is possibly hypocritical- as I cheer them as much as the other players- and certainly eccentric, as even the biggest countries pick players who've only moved there as adults. But hey, I can live with that. With my team abolished such eccentricity would be irrelevant...Possibly indeed. It would be a shame if you were denied such a luxury and me, of course, who would also be denied such eccentricity with my team abolished, but I can live with that.

[co. down green]

your spanking new super-stadia, mass waving of tricolors and the Soldiers' song in honor of President Mary McNazi-hunter or successor.

I presume that is why you prefer your 'pigeon shed' ground at Windsor Park with its mass waving of union jacks & unionist flags, the English national anthem, no surrender chants & all looked over by the Orange Order president of the IFA?


. The difference is that I'm not suggesting abolishing England, Germany or Zambia's international sides, in the way you'd axe Northern Ireland's.

I wasn't aware that i suggested abolishing the North's team?

[Gather round]

I've read the threads on OWC and I've seen all the mockery of the idea, don't worry. I've read some posts from posters who wouldn't expect such things to transpire in the event it happened

I haven't (although like you I don't pretend to keep up with evey thread). If I did, I'd say as to you that they were mischievous or naive.


but Dublin has the superior infrastructure, why not make use of it?

Er...you are making use of it. You'll fill Lansdowne again as you have Croke in recent years. As an outsider and occasional visitor I'm impressed by both.


Would you support an all-Ireland team in the event of re-unification? Or would you boycott the idea and not support the team at all?

I don't expect the NI team nor country to cease to exist in the foreseeable future so the question doesn't arise However, I do support the Ireland cricket team and watch it regularly. I'd prefer if it was a Northern Ireland team (as you may know, there were twice as many NI as Southern players in the squad for the 2020 World Cup last year). Admittedly the two best Irish players (from Dublin and Bray respectively) currently play for England. I don't follow rugby union at all really, so cricket's the best parallel I can offer.


and me, of course, who would also be denied such eccentricity with my team
abolished, but I can live with that

Your team wouldn't be abolished.


I presume that is why you prefer your 'pigeon shed' ground at Windsor Park with its mass waving of union jacks & unionist flags, the English national anthem, no surrender chants & all looked over by the Orange Order president of the IFA?

You really should stop presuming without acknowledging what I've already said here, or based on your own prejudices. I want Windsor to be refurbed to a 20,000 modern stadium; I prefer distinct NI flags and would like a distinct anthem, not one shared with Britain as a whole, England and Liechtenstein; I've opposed the Orange Order and other organisations based on religious or other sectarian prejudice all my life. I don't take part in No Surrender chants, they're so 1980s.

Sorry about the McAleese gag, btw. We go back a long way, I remember having a row with her when I was a student and she the head of the law faculty at Dublin University ;)


I wasn't aware that i suggested abolishing the North's team?

My apologies, you didn't. I was confusing you with another poster ('Antrim Green' at #363 above).

[The Fly]

Come on, it's hardly the elephant in the room we're not allowed to mention. I didn't claim they weren't Irish. And read back in the thread, where poster Fly claimed airily that some people (unionists, basically), WERE less Irish than others, as determined by his semi-coherent pseudo-scientific horsesh*t about quotients of Irishness and their relation to schizophrenia blah blah.


Gather Round, go back and read my posts again on the subject that you refer to above, (you didn't at the time - I wonder why). Then, simply engage your brain and understanding will follow. It's not rocket science!

[Predator]

Er...you are making use of it. You'll fill Lansdowne again as you have Croke in recent years. As an outsider and occasional visitor I'm impressed by both.
I think you know I was speaking with reference to a theoretical all Ireland football team. Would Belfast be the preferred home venue? If so, why?


I don't expect the NI team nor country to cease to exist in the foreseeable future so the question doesn't arise However, I do support the Ireland cricket team and watch it regularly. I'd prefer if it was a Northern Ireland team (as you may know, there were twice as many NI as Southern players in the squad for the 2020 World Cup last year). Admittedly the two best Irish players (from Dublin and Bray respectively) currently play for England. I don't follow rugby union at all really, so cricket's the best parallel I can offer.Surely then, if you can support the Ireland cricket team (despite your preference for a NI team), you could support an 'Ireland' football team (theoretically speaking of course)? Would it really be that difficult?




Your team wouldn't be abolished.How so?




Sorry about the McAleese gag, btw. We go back a long way, I remember having a row with her when I was a student and she the head of the law faculty at Dublin University ;)
...you didn't! :eek:

[Not Brazil]

Surely then, if you can support the Ireland cricket team (despite your preference for a NI team), you could support an 'Ireland' football team (theoretically speaking of course)?

Was there ever a "Northern Ireland" cricket team?

[shakermaker1982]

Come on, it's hardly the elephant in the room we're not allowed to mention. I didn't claim they weren't Irish. And read back in the thread, where poster Fly claimed airily that some people (unionists, basically), WERE less Irish than others, as determined by his semi-coherent pseudo-scientific horsesh*t about quotients of Irishness and their relation to schizophrenia blah blah.

But enough of that; as oft-repeated above I've mentioned them mainly to illustrate the point that many on this thread have declined to answer, or maybe to grasp. You already have the chance to pick any player from Ireland or anyone else with one Irish grannny. You don't need to abolish our team to do it.




you called 3 of the players Englishmen which to me is a nice dig at second generation Irish men and I imagine would be fairly insulting to somebody like Kevin Kilbane.

I expect that you'd class Iain Dowie and Lawrie Sanchez as Northern Irish rather than a couple of English lads?

[Not Brazil]

The RoI team would be abolished along with the NI team in the event of an all-Ireland team. The chance is there to pick anyone from NI but obviously not everyone from NI would want to play for RoI, as you say. In the case of an all-Ireland team, people would only have one team to play for and the best players would be in the one team (bar Stephen Ireland of course!). Nothing political or tribal, just sport. It's that simple.


There's the rub.

Why not allow people who wish to play for Northern Ireland, the CHOICE to play for Northern Ireland?

Your FA have the CHOICE to pick players from throughout the island - why can't you afford others the CHOICE to represent Northern Ireland?

[ifk101]

I personally believe that both teams have developed strong and individual identities to the extent that a merger is not workable. The FAI has its pick of players from both sides of the border, so the merits of a merger on a purely sporting argument are very weak. As it is, there are very few current NI internationals that would start in our side - the only NI player that would get in our team is Johnny Evans as a replacement for Kilbane. A quick review of the past 20 years and there's no more than a handful of NI internationals that would have been good enough to make our team. So it's a strong no to any calls for a merger for my part.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Was there ever a "Northern Ireland" cricket team?

Er, No.

[Gather round]

Gather Round, go back and read my posts again on the subject that you refer to above, (you didn't at the time - I wonder why). Then, simply engage your brain and understanding will follow. It's not rocket science!

It's gibberish, not any sort of science, however many times I re-read it.


I think you know I was speaking with reference to a theoretical all Ireland football team. Would Belfast be the preferred home venue? If so, why?

Er, I don't have a preferred home venue for a notional all-Ireland team. The question doesn't arise.


Surely then, if you can support the Ireland cricket team (despite your preference for a NI team), you could support an 'Ireland' football team (theoretically speaking of course)? Would it really be that difficult?

As well as the above (repeated ad nauseam earlier in the thread), it's hardly comparing like with like. As NB says, there's never been a NI cricket team.


[Your team wouldn't be abolished] How so?

Don't play dumb, I've explained on the previous page how any notional team would seamlessly replace the current Southern team.


...you didn't! [go back way a long way with la Presidente]

Oh, aye. We spent many a happy hour discussing her briefs.


you called 3 of the players Englishmen which to me is a nice dig at second generation Irish men and I imagine would be fairly insulting to somebody like Kevin Kilbane

As digs go, it's pretty gentle. Note (as I've said repeatedly above) I'm not suggesting they aren't Irish as well, so I imagine it wouldn't be insulting at all. Every week I hear Mark Lawrenson, another (ex) RoI international from Kilbane's home town commentating on games and routinely describing England (and its national side, sometimes) as 'we' or 'us'. Why not? He's effectively of dual nationality even if he only carries one passport.


I expect that you'd class Iain Dowie and Lawrie Sanchez as Northern Irish rather than a couple of English lads?

No, they're Englishmen who qualified to play for NI. Incidentally Dowie's niece, Natasha Dowie, has just been called up to the England women's side.


the only NI player that would get in our team is Johnny Evans as a replacement for Kilbane. A quick review of the past 20 years and there's no more than a handful of NI internationals that would have been good enough to make our team

Hmm. Us producing only one player of the very highest class (ie, Champs' League regular) in 10 years, isn't quite the same as no-one else good enough to get in your team. Whose last outing included a player without a single top-league game in the position where we have a guy who's played well over 300.

[ifk101]

Hmm. Us producing only one player of the very highest class (ie, Champs' League regular) in 10 years, isn't quite the same as no-one else good enough to get in your team. Whose last outing included a player without a single top-league game in the position where we have a guy who's played well over 300.

In the case of Evans, he is clearly a better player than Kilbane for the left full position in our team. I suppose even George McCarthy is a better option than Kilbane. But the point I am making is there are very few NI internationals now and in the past 20 odd years that are clearly better than our options to the extent that you can say an unified team, on a purely sporting level, would be better and would have performed better than what we have done.

[third policeman]

EG I admire your missionary zeal on behalf of the continuing existence of the NI team, but this debate always seems to lapse into thinly disguised political sniping. You consistently claim the mandate of speaking on behalf of NI supporters, and have also upholded the principle of "choice." There is surely one way that this debate could be resolved once and for all. let's use The Good Friday principle and actually ask the people of both parts of Ireland whether they want one ot two football teams. Now I would be completely happy to accept the result, but I kind of suspect you wouldn't. I feel your argument might be that only real NI suppoters (ie those who would be opposed to this) should have a vote. Why should Northern nationalist ("most of whom dont support NI anyway") or non-football fans have a say in this. "Sure we're all have a great wee time at Windsor park so whats the problem?" Well maybe there isn't a problem, but football is bigger than the limited capacity of Windor Park, it is something with the power to divide or unite, to cause conflict or inspire reconcilliation. For that reason it's totally legitimate for everybody in both jurisdictions to have a say on this.

[Predator]

There's the rub.

Why not allow people who wish to play for Northern Ireland, the CHOICE to play for Northern Ireland?

Your FA have the CHOICE to pick players from throughout the island - why can't you afford others the CHOICE to represent Northern Ireland?
The FAI has its choice of players from the whole island, but as I've said, they wouldn't all want to play for the FAI (for whatever reasons, they're entitled to that), so we don't have an all-island team really. Both teams would cease to exist with an all-island team.

See, I'm not trying to force anything and this is a discussion forum and it's all theoretical. I'm well aware of the widespread lack of desire among NI fans and indeed some RoI fans for the merging of the two international teams on the island, but why not actually consider the realistic positive possibilities of such a thing happening? I see no harm in discussing the merits and vices of the idea.



Er, I don't have a preferred home venue for a notional all-Ireland team. The question doesn't arise.
I think that's a bit of a cop-out GR. Back in the thread I think you said Belfast (I think I thanked that post actually)? If so, why?


As well as the above (repeated ad nauseam earlier in the thread), it's hardly comparing like with like. As NB says, there's never been a NI cricket team.Yeah, it isn't exactly the same, but still, you can support an Ireland cricket team with some objections.



Don't play dumb, I've explained on the previous page how any notional team would seamlessly replace the current Southern team.Who knows what would happen? NI fans and officials should make a strong case for the people they represent in the theoretical event of an all-Ireland team instead of flatly denying such an idea the space to grow. The RoI team would still cease to exist too.


Oh, aye. We spent many a happy hour discussing her briefs.Glad to hear that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

EG I admire your missionary zeal on behalf of the continuing existence of the NI team, but this debate always seems to lapse into thinly disguised political sniping. You consistently claim the mandate of speaking on behalf of NI supporters, and have also upholded the principle of "choice." There is surely one way that this debate could be resolved once and for all. let's use The Good Friday principle and actually ask the people of both parts of Ireland whether they want one ot two football teams. Now I would be completely happy to accept the result, but I kind of suspect you wouldn't. I feel your argument might be that only real NI suppoters (ie those who would be opposed to this) should have a vote. Why should Northern nationalist ("most of whom dont support NI anyway") or non-football fans have a say in this. "Sure we're all have a great wee time at Windsor park so whats the problem?" Well maybe there isn't a problem, but football is bigger than the limited capacity of Windor Park, it is something with the power to divide or unite, to cause conflict or inspire reconcilliation. For that reason it's totally legitimate for everybody in both jurisdictions to have a say on this.


Good shout and even unionist politicians might be persuaded at face value, though all they'd get out of it would be a few brownie points from the wider community.
However, something 'political', under the auspices of sport, would doubtless see the paranoia machine kick into action big time.

Interestingly, on a slight tangent, note Graeme McDowell & Rory McIlroy (of Antrim & Down respectively) are both playing in golf's equivalent of the World Cup, for some place called, er, Ireland.

You might have heard of it? ;)

[Not Brazil]

The FAI has its choice of players from the whole island, but as I've said, they wouldn't all want to play for the FAI (for whatever reasons, they're entitled to that), so we don't have an all-island team really. Both teams would cease to exist with an all-island team.


Perhaps it's because they wish to play for Northern Ireland?:eek:

Why don't you stick to players who wish to play your, de facto, 32 County side, and leave those who wish to play for Northern Ireland to make up their own minds?:eek:

We hear of Jonny Evans being an integral part of a, singular, fantasy island, team - does it occur to you that Jonny Evans might just be very proud to play for Northern Ireland (as he stated on BBC NI last night), and puts pride in wearing the shirt of his country (Northern Ireland) before qualification?

Interestingly, Evans is a great upholder of his friend, Darron Gibson's, right to play for the Republic - Jonny is a patriotic Northern Irishman, who wishes to play for (and Captain) Northern Ireland.

You guys squealed blue murder when some Northern Ireland fans suggested that if Northern Ireland born players didn't want to play for Northern Ireland, they shouldn't play for anyone.

Now, you're suggesting that if someone doesn't want to play for a fantasy island team, they should be denied the right to have a team at all.:eek:

Make your mind up.

[Predator]

NB, I wonder has the question ever been put to Jonny Evans on the topic of an all-Ireland team?


Now, you're suggesting that if someone doesn't want to play for a fantasy island team, they should be denied the right to have a team at all.:eek:I didn't say that.

I don't deny his or anyone else's desire to play for NI, but I wonder if they'd approve of an all Ireland football entity if it were to transpire? I'd imagine a lot of the current players would approve of the idea.

[ifk101]

Who knows what would happen? NI fans and officials should make a strong case for the people they represent in the theoretical event of an all-Ireland team instead of flatly denying such an idea the space to grow. The RoI team would still cease to exist too.

A merger would never be supported by all interest groups. We need to evalute if the merger idea is worth the hassle and to what real benefit. IMO it's not worth the hassle and it offers no real or tangible benefits.

There clearly is quite an anti-merger stance amongst the NI support. We should respect that and realise this is a non-runner.