Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[ArdeeBhoy]

Nothing "bizarre" about it - some of your language and ideals are straight out of the school of BNP thinking.:rolleyes:

Except you're clearly suffering from amnesia as I defined earlier the broad difference between the exclusionist, racist nationalism of the BNP and the vastly more inclusiveness of Irish nationalism.
However, you want to be British, so by definition can't be Irish, but we don't mind. We'd accept you anyway.
Somehow you & yer ilk would be liable to complain about it more than us. And some of them would go looking to the BNP, seeing they share the same phobia, not to mention similar tastes in colour scheme and music, about losing 'identity'.....

[Not Brazil]

Well I only know two, my sisters. Though to be fair they only ever have had Irish citizenship and never received such forms AFAIK.

If they wish to denounce their British Citizenship, they'll need to request the forms.;)

Let me know how they get on.:D

[Not Brazil]

Except you're clearly suffering from amnesia as I defined earlier the broad difference between the exclusionist, racist nationalism of the BNP and the vastly more inclusiveness of Irish nationalism.
However, you want to be British, so by definition can't be Irish, but we don't mind. We'd accept you anyway.
Somehow you & yer ilk would be liable to complain about it more than us. And some of them would go looking to the BNP, seeing they share the same phobia, not to mention similar tastes in colour scheme and music, about losing 'identity'.....

But for me to be "Irish", in your warped worldview, I have to give up my "Britishness".

Your definition is fine and dandy - i'll use an Internationally recognised Agreement as my source of reference - as overwhelmingly supported by the people of the Republic Of Ireland at the ballot box.;)

You're crackers.

[JohnB]

Once again GSTQ has no official status in Northern Ireland.

It does! It's the NA of the host nation, that being NI, which is part of the UK. It has the same status in the other three countries in the UK and, since you like the Welsh and Scottish examples, their sporting anthems are not official. Their NA is GSTQ.


I have already stated that I would be against GSTQ being used to represent the Irish rugby team. If the sporting anthem ('Ireland's Call'), were to be used solely, I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's despite my dislike for it as a song, but then what do you expect when you ask Phil Coulter to write one

And I suspect this official status thing is a red herring for those against the playing of GSTQ at Ireland rugby games. I quite like Ireland's Call as it goes, at least it's free of the usual old ****e about god and queens and battles and monocultural ideas of national identity.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If they wish to denounce their British Citizenship, they'll need to request the forms.
But how can they denounce something they never had, wanted or needed???

As for being crackers;suggest you look at what you're saying and the various contradictions which are so typical of unionism.
We started jokely talking about an AI team, but then you claim to be have to be Irish & British. As yer man said, at best you can be half-and-half. Which is fair enough.
But despite maybe some changing views, most people still want to be one way or the other. The 'both' nonsense doesn't come into it. And if you don't believe me, look at how 95% minimum vote in the North.
If you went round with literature with a UJ/Tricolour on there, it'd be a long time before anyone takes you seriously....

Anyway, the bigger picture is that we're more accepting of you, than you are of us. Even though you claim to be 'Irish'....Maybe by geogragraphical location, but not by nature or disposition!
And all that 'Agreement' is an agreement to disagree!

[ArdeeBhoy]

It does! It's the NA of the host nation, that being NI, which is part of the UK. It has the same status in the other three countries in the UK and, since you like the Welsh and Scottish examples, their sporting anthems are not official. Their NA is GSTQ.

And I suspect this official status thing is a red herring for those against the playing of GSTQ at Ireland rugby games. I quite like Ireland's Call as it goes, at least it's free of the usual old ****e about god and queens and battles and monocultural ideas of national identity.

You're right about official status. But so last century.
It's very average IC (Personally Id' prefer The Sash & SS one after another) but otherwise, yes.

[JohnB]

You are talking < 100 people surely, even in Rossnowlagh who are willingly Irish citizens?
But don't worry, we don't mind them, nor them us!

I've no idea about numbers of prods/OO types in the RoI, but I have been surprised by the depth of their feeling. Some do mind very much about how they've been treated and how they're perceived in the RoI.


As for TQ song, it's a terrible dirge. Why doesn't the North at least come into the 20th century and go for 'Danny Boy' (or similar) as a sporting anthem? At least it mentions the green Glens and you don't have to share it with the worst kind of moronic England fan....

Even 'The Sash' or something to the tune of 'The Billy Boys' would make more sense and be a dammed sight more rousing than that and the 'No Surrender' add-on! ;)

I'd like a new anthem and flag for NI, but we've only recently emerged from several decades of murder, so things are still very sensitive. The recent murders aren't helping either. I don't see us getting rid of GSTQ for a while yet, but I think it will come once the country is feeling a bit more confident.

[-lamb-]

But I'll give you the benefit for now and read those questions/answers properly when I have time.
Again I'd be be interested in the methodology.
it's not you'll "give me the benefit", as you so condescendingly put it, rather that you have nothing else to offer in argument to it. even now you are ONLY interested in the methodology because it is your only argumental option. if the figures had suited your opinion methodology wouldn't even have crossed your mind.
you've been trolling pretty much the whole way through the thread throwing out unsubstantiated, incorrect and stereotyped images that you obviously believe but can't back up.
do us all a favour and give it a rest.

[The Fly]

It does! It's the NA of the host nation, that being NI, which is part of the UK. It has the same status in the other three countries in the UK and, since you like the Welsh and Scottish examples, their sporting anthems are not official. Their NA is GSTQ.

The UK is not being represented, Northern Ireland is. That is why the Scots and Welsh use their own anthems, as well as for obvious nationalistic reasons. The English use GSTQ, as we all know, but then Englishness and Britishness have always been one and the same thing - or at the very least, Britishness has always been seen, both domestically and certainly internationally, as Englishness writ large.

Here's a question for you JohnB;
If England chooses to have it's own anthem, which is gathering momentum there, with 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Jerusalem' being the two preferred candidates, would you still expect Northern Ireland to use GSTQ as it's 'official anthem'?



And I suspect this official status thing is a red herring for those against the playing of GSTQ at Ireland rugby games. I quite like Ireland's Call as it goes, at least it's free of the usual old ****e about god and queens and battles and monocultural ideas of national identity.

That's fair enough.

[Not Brazil]

But how can they denounce something they never had, wanted or needed???


Were your sisters born in Northern Ireland, and continue to live in Northern Ireland?

[Not Brazil]

As for being crackers;suggest you look at what you're saying and the various contradictions which are so typical of unionism.
We started jokely talking about an AI team, but then you claim to be have to be Irish & British.

No contradictions at all - my identity is multi faceted.

I don't understand what the gibberish in the second sentence above means, or what point you are attempting to make?:confused:

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've no idea about numbers of prods/OO types in the RoI, but I have been surprised by the depth of their feeling. Some do mind very much about how they've been treated and how they're perceived in the RoI.

I'd like a new anthem and flag for NI, but we've only recently emerged from several decades of murder, so things are still very sensitive. The recent murders aren't helping either. I don't see us getting rid of GSTQ for a while yet, but I think it will come once the country is feeling a bit more confident.

5% Prods in the Free State and of that 1-2% max. would have any feelings for the OO.
But seriously have no problem with anyone, except certain 'Flat-Earthers', at both ends of the Prod/RC extremes who're nearly as demented as each other.

As for your colleague from Larne;wasn't me who came on an 'opposing' MB shouting the odds and accusing me of trolling. You know nothing about me, or my experiences, yet you claim everything I say is unsubstantiated.
Well you're wrong. I make a point of talking to and asking people, of all religions and persuasions. You should try it sometime.

Admit still get fired up by all this, but have my own personal reasons.
If people are willing to move on as HS and you (without the conciliatory tone) suggest, then all well and good.
I sincerely hope so. And that all those who've died unnecessarily in Ireland under British interference, wasn't in vain.
Just accept that people have different experiences before saying their images and stereotypes are wrong;have spoken to certain Northern politicians and believe me, as HS says, they are very very clear in what they stand for. And don't currently see it any other way.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Were your sisters born in Northern Ireland, and continue to live in Northern Ireland?
They were born there, but left when they were children. We used to joke they had 'dual' citizenship, but they weren't so keen on the idea!

[Not Brazil]

If England chooses to have it's own anthem, which is gathering momentum there, with 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Jerusalem' being the two preferred candidates, would you still expect Northern Ireland to use GSTQ as it's 'official anthem'?


I'm sure JohnB will answer for himself, but I'm supportive of a Northern Irish "sporting" anthem to be brought in asap.

England can do what they like.

My National Anthem, is, and will remain, GSTQ.

[The Fly]

No contradictions at all - my identity is multi faceted.


Exactly!

[Not Brazil]

They were born there, but left when they were children. We used to joke they had 'dual' citizenship, but they weren't so keen on the idea!

So, they don't live in Northern Ireland any longer?

[The Fly]

I'm sure JohnB will answer for himself, but I'm supportive of a Northern Irish "sporting" anthem to be brought in asap.

England can do what they like.

My National Anthem, is, and will remain, GSTQ.

Fair Enough NB.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So, they don't live in Northern Ireland any longer?

Hence the word 'left'. But you only mentioned Irish citizens born in the North.....

[Not Brazil]

Hence the word 'left'. But you only mentioned Irish citizens born in the North.....

So they were born in Northern Ireland, and left?

What year were they born?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd like a new anthem and flag for NI, but we've only recently emerged from several decades of murder, so things are still very sensitive. The recent murders aren't helping either. I don't see us getting rid of GSTQ for a while yet, but I think it will come once the country is feeling a bit more confident.

To answer properly, or more so, Good Luck with the most inclusive choices possible.
Seen the flags and very know vaguely one of the designers....

[ArdeeBhoy]

So they were born in Northern Ireland, and left?

What year were they born?

Not going to discuss the nuances of my family history on a public MB. If it's really that fascinating PM me and I'll respond tomorrow night.

[Not Brazil]

Not going to discuss the nuances of my family history on a public MB. If it's really that fascinating PM me and I'll respond tomorrow night.

That's fair enough BB...I think you were right in slagging them about their "Dual Nationality" though.;)

If they read the British Citizenship laws, they'll have a fit.:D

The Republic Of Ireland affords me "Dual Nationality" as a birthright....kinda messes up your arguement a bit.:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

PM me a link, with relevant legislative dates and we'll see.

But they neither want to be or are 'British' AFAIK. ;)

[peadar1987]

Aye, but yer average unionist would want to be :rolleyes: 100% Brit !


I met the average Unionist. He sends his regards.

[Not Brazil]

PM me a link, with relevant legislative dates and we'll see.

But they neither want to be or are 'British' AFAIK. ;)

You can google it all.

What they want to be, and what they are, might be two different things.

How they "identify" is an entirely different matter - and I uphold and respect their right to identify as solely "Irish".

[JohnB]

Here's a question for you JohnB;
If England chooses to have it's own anthem, which is gathering momentum there, with 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Jerusalem' being the two preferred candidates, would you still expect Northern Ireland to use GSTQ as it's 'official anthem'?



In the absence of anything else I don't think we have a choice. For lots of reasons, I dislike GSTQ. In fact I dislike national anthems in general and I stand and stare at my shoes when GSTQ is played at NI games. But for me it's a case of fairness. I have stood in Dublin for the SS and I think it's fair to expect that gesture to be reciprocated in Belfast. And also GSTQ means a lot to some in NI, in the same way that the SS means a lot to some in NI and the RoI. In an all-Ireland set up, I don't think those feelings should just be dismissed.

[Scooby Doo]

Not so. You've responded to the NI supporters telling you thanks, but we're not interested in joining your football team- by just repeating it, over and over and over again. It's not an argument, just a cliched slogan.



Who's bitter? I'm relieved you didn't make it, no more. If you're going to repeat the same sneers as above, you can hardly be surprised when they're occasionally returned.



Don't be daft. How would either of us know what the typical fan in Africa or Asia or wherever thinks? Even if you did, you (and they notionally) are getting carried away by righteous indignation. Not conceding one dodgy goal didn't mean you'd have won overall, as I explained; conceding it doesn't make you particularly deserving. You lost unluckily, best get over it.



Guilty as charged, son (I assume you're an adult male, apologies if not). Only coming down to your level.



Spare us the pseudo-science, Dr Freud. It's got fcuk all to do with schizophrenia (which is distinct from multiple personality disorder). You're just a bigot who won't accept unionists as equally Irish. I'd change my psychiatrist if I were you.
Fair enough GR keep going. Your pedantic, weak and frankly juvenile diatribe has amazed and amused me all day. I've often been hesitant to subscribe fully to the notion that NI is infected by a siege mentality. You sir have somewhat eroded that hesitation. Thank god for some rational NI posters like NB. And you're relieved we didn't make it to the WC? Add deplorable pettiness to the list above.

[-lamb-]

As for your colleague from Larne;wasn't me who came on an 'opposing' MB shouting the odds and accusing me of trolling. You know nothing about me, or my experiences, yet you claim everything I say is unsubstantiated.
Well you're wrong. I make a point of talking to and asking people, of all religions and persuasions. You should try it sometime.

Admit still get fired up by all this, but have my own personal reasons.
If people are willing to move on as HS and you (without the conciliatory tone) suggest, then all well and good.
I sincerely hope so. And that all those who've died unnecessarily in Ireland under British interference, wasn't in vain.
Just accept that people have different experiences before saying their images and stereotypes are wrong;have spoken to certain Northern politicians and believe me, as HS says, they are very very clear in what they stand for. And don't currently see it any other way.
you've likely already pidgeon holed me, and no doubt wrongly, but now it's in your head you will fight to make it right.
do you still think your little "walk and talk" sessions are actually representative of almost 2 million people and will still purport them to be so to everyone? even when you are shown to be incorrect you still persist holding on to what on the surface appear to be, at the least, pretty uninformed views and make unwarranted, disparaging remarks. isn't that trolling?
i should try gathering my views the way you do sometime? no thanks, i prefer to try using facts over the coloured bitterness of wherever your opinions came from.
i've met a builder from ardee, maybe everyone in ardee is a builder?
i've met a junkie in dublin, maybe all dubliners are junkies?
i've met a ukrainian who was a chef, maybe all ukrainians are chefs?
i've met a protestant bigot in northern ireland, maybe all protestants in northern ireland are bigots?
no matter, there doesn't seem any point telling you things aren't all as you see them because you will probably revert back to the view you wish were reality anyway and continue spouting garbage.
open your eyes sometime ardeebhoy and stop letting others fill your head full of prejudice.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You can google it all.

What they want to be, and what they are, might be two different things.

How they "identify" is an entirely different matter - and I uphold and respect their right to identify as solely "Irish".

But you know I won't look at any link re. Brit.citizenship !
Though in a wider context, maybe....
And I'm sure they'd respect your right to be British, though would be more confused about any 'Irish' bit....
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

But you know I won't look at any link re. Brit.citizenship !
Though in a wider context, maybe....
And I'm sure they'd respect your right to be British, though would be more confused about any 'Irish' bit....
:rolleyes:

Another bizarre interjection.

It would pay you to understand what you're talking about re: British Citizenship.

And..the Constitution of Ireland, affords me the birthright to be an Irish Citizen.

[The Fly]

In the absence of anything else I don't think we have a choice. For lots of reasons, I dislike GSTQ. In fact I dislike national anthems in general and I stand and stare at my shoes when GSTQ is played at NI games. But for me it's a case of fairness. I have stood in Dublin for the SS and I think it's fair to expect that gesture to be reciprocated in Belfast. And also GSTQ means a lot to some in NI, in the same way that the SS means a lot to some in NI and the RoI. In an all-Ireland set up, I don't think those feelings should just be dismissed.

There is a certain rationale in what you say JohnB. Your point about fairness is one that I understand, i.e; you want there to be/think there should be, an anthem that caters for the Unionist people from Northern Ireland who attend Irish rugby matches. This is, crucially, different from an anthem that represents NI as a whole, and it represents a catch-22 situation for the IRFU.

It is my view that using GSTQ to represent the Irish rugby team is no way appropriate. Obviously, the IRFU also know this, certainly strategically and probably by a majority belief within the organisation. If the IRFU did allow GSTQ to played before a match at Ravenhill, there would be an uproar in the Republic and the team would haemorrhage support. The IRFU is not going to go down that route, so, what should it do?
The fairest and most equitable way, would be, to just play Ireland's Call. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Alternatively, in the event that an official Northern Ireland anthem does come about, that would be then be used. This is the more likely outcome, in my view.

The central problem of course, as it pertains to NI, is that there is no collective Northern Ireland identity.
(but maybe the clock is ticking on that one........who knows)

[Not Brazil]

The fairest and most equitable way, would be, to just play Ireland's Call

That's the answer for Rugby.

None of this one for the Unionists, one for the Nationalists ballicks...Ireland's Call (crap as it is), and get on with the game.

And..if Mary is in attendance in Dublin...no problem with the "Presidential Salute".

[ArdeeBhoy]

To Lamb,
If you dont engage with people how else do we find out their views....
May not agree with NB, but at least we get a view of sorts.
Whereas all you want to do is say I'm 'wrong' !

Obviously from the 'reasoned' line of argument !

[ArdeeBhoy]

It would pay you to understand what you're talking about re: British Citizenship.

And..the Constitution of Ireland, affords me the birthright to be an Irish Citizen.


Well, did ask you to send a link....am still waiting!
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Well, did ask you to send a link....am still waiting!
:rolleyes:

Have you heard of google?

[peadar1987]

i've met a junkie in dublin, maybe all dubliners are junkies?


You could have a point there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEAyPcezEGA

[Gather round]

Fair enough GR keep going. Your pedantic, weak and frankly juvenile diatribe has amazed and amused me all day. I've often been hesitant to subscribe fully to the notion that NI is infected by a siege mentality. You sir have somewhat eroded that hesitation. Thank god for some rational NI posters like NB. And you're relieved we didn't make it to the WC? Add deplorable pettiness to the list above

Always glad to help, old boy ;)

[Shilts]

I don't know whether this has been covered yet but you can't just decide to join up football federations willy nilly. FIFA has very strict criteria for this type of thing. All countries must be real countries (politically). That is everyone of more than 200 members. The only exceptions are the 4 'countries' of the UK who are allowed to remain as they are because they were the original countries who played soccer.

You cant just say an All-Ireland team works for the rugby so lets have one of those for the soccer too. It wouldn't be allowed until we have a united Ireland politically.

[Gather round]

IAll countries must be real countries (politically). That is everyone of more than 200 members. The only exceptions are the 4 'countries' of the UK who are allowed to remain as they are because they were the original countries who played soccer

Not quite. Faeroes are a member of UEFA and FIFA while remaining an autonomous part of Denmark.

[Shilts]

Not quite. Faeroes are a member of UEFA and FIFA while remaining an autonomous part of Denmark.

Not quite sure how that situation works - they have a form of home rule and are NOT in the EU, unlike Denmark. But I can see that different possibilities might be accepted by FIFA.
However, I dont know of any composite teams (as they call them in rowing) being allowed by FIFA

[Shilts]

Except for Bosnia and Herzagovina or Trinidad and Tobago??? :ball:

[Fixer82]

if the argument is on anthem alone then the teams/associations will be merged much sooner than I thought.

Look at how it's done in rugby. I personally despise Ireland's Call, but if that's what it takes to have the 6 counties players join our rank then make it so....

Everything is cross-border now. I reckon the football teams will probably be among the last things to be cross-border. But I think it will happen.
I'm with George Best. Unite the teams!

FIFA I think would look at each case individually. In much the same way they dealt with Darron Gibson etc. specific case...

[Not Brazil]

if the argument is on anthem alone then the teams/associations will be merged much sooner than I thought.

Look at how it's done in rugby. I personally despise Ireland's Call, but if that's what it takes to have the 6 counties players join our rank then make it so....


It's not about the Anthem.

The IFA will not be giving up it's autonomy.

People need to accept that fact, and move on.

Some "6 Counties" players will choose to play for the ROI - others (the vast majority) are proud to wear the Nortrhern Ireland shirt.

You have your "All Ireland" team. Leave us who want nothing to do with it to get on with supporting our team.

[Gather round]

if the argument is on anthem alone then the teams/associations will be merged much sooner than I thought

It isn't. Read (any random page of) the thread.


Look at how it's done in rugby. I personally despise Ireland's Call, but if that's what it takes to have the 6 counties players join our rank then make it so....

It isn't. NI-based based players and fans supported the team for decades before the IRFU belatedly became (slightly) more welcoming to them.


Everything is cross-border now. I reckon the football teams will probably be among the last things to be cross-border. But I think it will happen.

It isn't and they won't. Two different countries, we're not interested .

FIFA I think would look at each case individually. In much the same way they dealt with Darron Gibson etc. specific case...

The specific case is that Northern Ireland fans don't want to merge with your football team, so it isn't going to happen. FIFA aren't and won't be interested.

[Fixer82]

Well there's a surprise. Two Ulster men saying NO! NO! NO! :)

[Gather round]

Go away and stop stirring, you numbskull.

[kingdomkerry]

Id love to see it happen. However NI fans are of a unionist nature. Unionists are sectarian. Therefore NI fans are sectarian. Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons. Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth.

[Gather round]

However NI fans are of a unionist nature

Not all of them.


Unionists are sectarian

Only some of them.


Therefore NI fans are sectarian

That's illogical captain.


Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons

Most reasonable people would agree that those trying to close down another team against its fans' wishes are the real bigots.


Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth

It isn't. Go away and stop stirring.

[Not Brazil]

Id love to see it happen. However NI fans are of a unionist nature. Unionists are sectarian. Therefore NI fans are sectarian. Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons. Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth.

I'm sure all rational poster on this site - the vast majority - will agree that your comments say more about your mindset, than that of any "Unionist".

Get it into your skull - we do not wish to see our team gobbled up by ANYONE - be that into an All Ireland set up, or, All UK set -up.

To throw around lazy, broadbrushed, labels, insinuating NI fans are all sectarian, is, frankly, pathetic.

I don't care where you, or anyone else for that matter, (least of all Northern Ireland players) say their prayers.

[O'Shea's Boot]

Id love to see it happen. However NI fans are of a unionist nature. Unionists are sectarian. Therefore NI fans are sectarian. Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons. Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth.
Pretty shallow post KK - I have many friends from Northern Ireland who would be Unionists and are not in the least sectarian. All unionist means is they want to maintain the Union between GB/NI .....you and I might not agree (or in my case not very interested) but that doesnt make them sectarian