Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[backstothewall]

Belfast Celtic aren't going to be re-formed.

There already is a "Celtic" Club, based in West Belfast, playing in the IL.

Quite apart from anything else, why should a Club spring up out of nowhere, to take it's place at the top table - that's insulting to every other Club on the island.:rolleyes:

So basically, we're down to two IL Clubs - Linfield and Glentoran - in an AI Premier League...Derry City are a LOI Club.

So you think that the effective addition of Linfield and Glentoran to the current top tier in the LOI is going to be the saviour of Club football on this island?:eek:

Considering AI leagues outwith a "Premier" league is a complete non-starter.

How would a mid table clash, in a second tier, between say Institute and Waterford, benefit either Club?:confused:

The end of Belfast Celtic was the death of football in the north. The point of isolating the Belfast teams from the others is that it turns everyone in counties Down, Antrim and Armagh of potential fans.


why would larne go amateur, or want to? i should point out larne were never relegated on the pitch and have 2 senior cup finals and a few semis under their belts in the last 7 years.
what about the likes of distillery, dungannon, newry and institute? do they go amateur as well or is there space in your 2 leagues for them?
can derry city play in the same league as linfield etc? according to other posts on this forum and others there might be trouble (rolls eyes).
and belfast celtic to come back and straight into a top ail??
coleraine, crues, ballymena and the ports all in a second division? behind who in a top league? (i think you previously mentioned c'ville down there too, not to mention you would probably turf glenavon in there).
so basically you picked 2 of the biggest teams on the whole island, plus another who say they still can't play with the first 2 and some historical society thats not even a football club to fill the NI spaces in a fantasy AIL?

i think you've been on the funny pills tbh.

Whats the average attendance? Given the town has a population of 18228 (according to the last census), and is well within Linfelds catchment area, it simply can't support a professional team. And in time it will go the same way as Omagh did if they continue to try to pay their players.

http://new.u.tv/Sport/Larne-FC-Ltd-wound-up/c32b96cc-6be0-49ce-8c98-b059bb2cffca

Take the hint. Remember Omagh Town, and the ongoing fiasco that is the slow death of Ards FC

[backstothewall]

One of the main reasons I'm against a merger is because there's no one in the NI team I want in our team. And we'd be on pressure to play some NI players, who aren't up to it.

Such a merger doesn't do any good for either country, and we've both come close to qualifying this time around so we don't need it anyway.

Brilliant. We came close. :rolleyes:

You obviously haven't watched much of George McCartney, Johnny Evans, Kyle Lafferty or Steve Davis

[Not Brazil]

The end of Belfast Celtic was the death of football in the north.

I disagee.

Like in the South, wall to wall TV coverage of English/Scottish/European football, and the emergence of the budget airlines, has done a lot of damage to the domestic game.:(

[-lamb-]

The end of Belfast Celtic was the death of football in the north. The point of isolating the Belfast teams from the others is that it turns everyone in counties Down, Antrim and Armagh of potential fans.



Whats the average attendance? Given the town has a population of 18228 (according to the last census), and is well within Linfelds catchment area, it simply can't support a professional team. And in time it will go the same way as Omagh did if they continue to try to pay their players.

http://new.u.tv/Sport/Larne-FC-Ltd-wound-up/c32b96cc-6be0-49ce-8c98-b059bb2cffca

Take the hint. Remember Omagh Town, and the ongoing fiasco that is the slow death of Ards FC
actually, crowds in the il were still very high for decades after belfast celtic disappeared.
the reasons for declining crowds in general is a mish mash of lots of reasons, sky tv, cheap flights, troubles, standard of football, mismanagement at the top (?), etc, etc.

i never said larne could support a professional team. it would take a lot more available income for 95% of il teams to be able to do that, hence why they don't. even linfield and glentoran don't feel it is beneficial at the minute. linfield are probably the only team who could do it without killing themselves today, and only then due to the ifa rental income for windsor park. it would be unlikely that the likes of coleraine, ballymena, glenavon etc could manage it without really stretching themselves to the limit.

larne's current situation is, in all honesty, unreadable to an outsider, and many insiders. it's a legal matter whether the debt from the ltd co that ran the club until 2 years ago will affect the football club itself and there is no way ANYONE knows unless it goes to a lenghty court case.
larne's crowds aren't good at the minute....internal splits and second tier football taking their toll, but crowds while in the top tier were on average more than at least 4 other clubs that are there at the minute. larne is almost exactly the same size as wexford, but with a much bigger football base and history. it is certainly much larger than dungannon, limavady etc.
the town itself isn't really in the linfield catchment area at all. it never has been either. while carrickfergus, bangor, lisburn etc are awash with big 2 fans, larne is just outside the "easy belfast commute" suburban zone and has stayed relatively free of big 2 intrusion.

anyway the point is that larne can quite happily run a paid team of part timers, as they have for many many years. in fact their wage budget in the top tier was higher than at least one of the teams you would place in your 2nd tier league.

the omagh town disaster has nothing to do with larne or ards. they had little support in the town, were up to all sorts and ultimately were well above their own safe level.

ards are slowly getting their act together after bad management and bad luck (the parent company who were to build their new ground went bust after castlereagh park was sold, not exactly ards's doing to be fair). there are plans for a new stadium with an expected completion date of 2011, though i suspect it could be a year or so later as it is council backed. if all goes well ards will be back playing in ards with a new stadium and their support will undoubtedly increase again.

[micls]

That's true, but I just get the impression that there would be quite a few people within the 6 counties who would not take too kindly to supporting an All-Ireland team.

I'd imagine not. I still dont see why that would be 'bigotted' though.

There'd be plenty of cobh people that wouldn't take too kindly to supporting an All-Cork team either. Most Cork City fans wouldn't care once we got to keep the name cos we're the bigger team and it would be Cobh being swallowed up into us in a practical sense.

I'd see that as a very similar scenario to the international one, and a very valid reason that NI fans would have no interest, and there's nothing bigotted about it.

[JohnB]

[QUOTE=micls;1279651]I'd imagine not. I still dont see why that would be 'bigotted' though.
[QUOTE]

Me neither. Being bigoted? Pretty much every time someone from NI has an opinion that doesn't fit with a particular view of Irishness, there's an accusation of bigotry. The irony is of course, completely lost on the accuser.

Also, the antipathy that many NI fans have for the RoI team is put down to bigotry. In some cases that's true. But it's also to do with discussions such as this. I was out of my bed very early to watch and cheer on the RoI's last WC campaign, but I've found it increasingly difficult to feel well disposed towards the team. Every time we do badly, and now it seems, even when the RoI do badly, we have calls for an all-Ireland team. That team would no doubt play home games in Dublin and would probably take on a similar feel to the Irish rugby team, in which players from NI 'guest' as honorary RoI players. I follow the rugby and go to the internationals, but it has become increasingly difficult because Belfast has been deemed an 'away' venue by the IRFU. I'd hate to see similar happen in football. If effect it would signal the end of the team I've supported since childhood. I'd have thought any football supporter would recognise this.

[Fixer82]

Ah the league of Ireland and the Irish League. The People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front!

[irishultra]

I disagee.

Like in the South, wall to wall TV coverage of English/Scottish/European football, and the emergence of the budget airlines, has done a lot of damage to the domestic game.:(

There has never been wall to wall coverage of European footbal(other than two british leagues) in Ireland. That is why you never really get Real Madrid fans here like irish people who support english clubs.

[backstothewall]

actually, crowds in the il were still very high for decades after belfast celtic disappeared.
the reasons for declining crowds in general is a mish mash of lots of reasons, sky tv, cheap flights, troubles, standard of football, mismanagement at the top (?), etc, etc.

i never said larne could support a professional team. it would take a lot more available income for 95% of il teams to be able to do that, hence why they don't. even linfield and glentoran don't feel it is beneficial at the minute. linfield are probably the only team who could do it without killing themselves today, and only then due to the ifa rental income for windsor park. it would be unlikely that the likes of coleraine, ballymena, glenavon etc could manage it without really stretching themselves to the limit.

larne's current situation is, in all honesty, unreadable to an outsider, and many insiders. it's a legal matter whether the debt from the ltd co that ran the club until 2 years ago will affect the football club itself and there is no way ANYONE knows unless it goes to a lenghty court case.
larne's crowds aren't good at the minute....internal splits and second tier football taking their toll, but crowds while in the top tier were on average more than at least 4 other clubs that are there at the minute. larne is almost exactly the same size as wexford, but with a much bigger football base and history. it is certainly much larger than dungannon, limavady etc.
the town itself isn't really in the linfield catchment area at all. it never has been either. while carrickfergus, bangor, lisburn etc are awash with big 2 fans, larne is just outside the "easy belfast commute" suburban zone and has stayed relatively free of big 2 intrusion.

anyway the point is that larne can quite happily run a paid team of part timers, as they have for many many years. in fact their wage budget in the top tier was higher than at least one of the teams you would place in your 2nd tier league.

the omagh town disaster has nothing to do with larne or ards. they had little support in the town, were up to all sorts and ultimately were well above their own safe level.

ards are slowly getting their act together after bad management and bad luck (the parent company who were to build their new ground went bust after castlereagh park was sold, not exactly ards's doing to be fair). there are plans for a new stadium with an expected completion date of 2011, though i suspect it could be a year or so later as it is council backed. if all goes well ards will be back playing in ards with a new stadium and their support will undoubtedly increase again.

Would Larne gain anything from promotion? With respect, they are never going to win the Irish League. When Larne fans go to the top of the mountian, is getting hammered a couple of times a year by Linfield and the Glens what they see in the promised land?

Would there not be more fun in a provincial division without teams they can never hope to compete with, which they might win on a good year?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Also, the antipathy that many NI fans have for the RoI team is put down to bigotry. In some cases that's true.
But it's also to do with discussions such as this. I was out of my bed very early to watch and cheer on the RoI's last WC campaign, but I've found it increasingly difficult to feel well disposed towards the team. Every time we do badly, and now it seems, even when the RoI do badly, we have calls for an all-Ireland team. That team would no doubt play home games in Dublin and would probably take on a similar feel to the Irish rugby team, in which players from NI 'guest' as honorary RoI players. I follow the rugby and go to the internationals, but it has become increasingly difficult because Belfast has been deemed an 'away' venue by the IRFU. I'd hate to see similar happen in football.

That's fair enough. If it helps, even someone like my good self would be more than happy to go to Belfast for every match for an UI team!

Though part of the problem with the rugby in Beal-feirste, is the inevitable issues with flag and anthem, not to mention the stadium!
Though you don't find may Irish people complaining about Stormont (apart from the weather!) for a UI cricket team or people from greater Ulster going to Casement for GAA Finals !

After all, as many Nordie fans keep parroting the FAI broke away from the IFA. And we'd mainly agree, at best are both full of well-meaning incompetents. So you'd better get on and build the Pairce de Maze or whatever..... ;)

And just to appease Mr.Lamb or whatever, Good luck to Larne FC.
Hopefully one day we'll see you in an AI-Lge??

[peadar1987]

There has never been wall to wall coverage of European footbal(other than two british leagues) in Ireland. That is why you never really get Real Madrid fans here like irish people who support english clubs.

We're seeing this more and more now. Ask a classroom of kids who they support, and there'll be the usual Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Celtic but I'll bet there's at least one who claims to be a Barcelona, Real Madrid, or AC Milan fan as well. And we didn't have that 10 years ago when I was starting secondary school.

[-lamb-]

Would Larne gain anything from promotion? With respect, they are never going to win the Irish League. When Larne fans go to the top of the mountian, is getting hammered a couple of times a year by Linfield and the Glens what they see in the promised land?

Would there not be more fun in a provincial division without teams they can never hope to compete with, which they might win on a good year?

there's no way that would that be more appealing, not to any club i don't think.
i've never gone along with the view of playing it safe in a lower league just for wins. a football team should always strive to be at as high a level as they possibly can be. how many teams in the loi or il will never win it? there are plenty without any chance, yet they still plug away and try. if you aren't in, you can't win.
pretty much any team going into a top league would benefit with larger crowds and, if they are sensible, their added income from gates, sponsorship and league money should cover their added wage outgoings.
i should also point out that while larne were in the top league both glenavon and crusaders were relegated and c'ville narrowly escaped relegation through a playoff.
see? picking teams for leagues isn't as clearcut and easy as it seems.

[JohnB]

That's fair enough. If it helps, even someone like my good self would be more than happy to go to Belfast for every match for an UI team!

Fair play to you, but I doubt you're representative of the main body of support. Do you live in Belfast?


Though part of the problem with the rugby in Beal-feirste, is the inevitable issues with flag and anthem, not to mention the stadium!
Though you don't find may Irish people complaining about Stormont (apart from the weather!) for a UI cricket team or people from greater Ulster going to Casement for GAA Finals !

As far as I know, major Ulster-based games in GAA take place in Monaghan. Cricket? They play in Belfast and Dublin, but I think rugby is a much better comparison, given that very few people go to cricket, bar the times e.g. Australia visit. Rugby? I think Ravenhill is perfect for the smaller games, but the decision by the IRFU to treat Belfast as an away venue sends out a very strong message.


After all, as many Nordie fans keep parroting the FAI broke away from the IFA. And we'd mainly agree, at best are both full of well-meaning incompetents. So you'd better get on and build the Pairce de Maze or whatever..... ;)

Yip, we're both hamstrung by a bunch of ****wits at the FAs. I think though thankfully we're sticking with Windsor, rather than going with an out-of-town stadium. A few pints in south Belfast and a stroll down the hill to the ground is hard to beat ,even if the ground is a bit of a dump.:)

[The Fly]

Rugby? I think Ravenhill is perfect for the smaller games, but the decision by the IRFU to treat Belfast as an away venue sends out a very strong message.


Come on now - be serious!
Do you really expect the Irish rugby team to stand for 'God Save the Queen.'

[-lamb-]

but its ok to ask players from northern ireland to stand for the solider's song under a tricolour? our players have the decency to do it when a game is in dublin, but it can't be expected to return the gesture when the game is in belfast?
can't you see the irony of that? and here i was thinking the irish rugby team represented EVERYONE on the island........only when it suits, only when it suits........

[The Fly]

but its ok to ask players from northern ireland to stand for the solider's song under a tricolour? our players have the decency to do it when a game is in dublin, but it can't be expected to return the gesture when the game is in belfast?
can't you see the irony of that? and here i was thinking the irish rugby team represented EVERYONE on the island........only when it suits, only when it suits........

You are applying the insular 'logic' of Northern Ireland, to the island as a whole.

If Northern Ireland had it's own distinct anthem, then that should be played before Ireland's Call. The idea that the UK national anthem should be played for an Irish team - in any sport, is ridiculous. It would be completely farcical for the Irish rugby team to stand for GSTQ - the anthem of the English rugby team.

Even people in Britain would find it hilarious, and just a little strange!

[-lamb-]

so it's fine to play the soldier's song when an international rugby game is played in dublin as a courtesy to the host, yet not ok to play god save the queen as a courtesy to the host when an international rugby game is played in belfast?
wow, the hypocrisy in that is palpable. can you genuinely not see how one sided that is for what is supposed to be for all?

[The Fly]

so it's fine to play the soldier's song when an international rugby game is played in dublin as a courtesy to the host, yet not ok to play god save the queen as a courtesy to the host when an international rugby game is played in belfast?
wow, the hypocrisy in that is palpable. can you genuinely not see how one sided that is for what is supposed to be for all?

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.

The Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are both, obviously, within the jurisdiction of the IRFU.
The tricolour and the Soldier's Song are representative of the Republic of Ireland as a whole and are not in the least bit contentious. The Ulster Banner and God Save the Queen are not representative of the 'Northern Irish' population (or as you put it - 'the host') and are most certainly contentious.
Leaving the above aside, neither have any official status in Northern Ireland. In other words, 'the host' has no flag or anthem.

My view is clear and simple, if Northern Ireland had it's own distinct flag and anthem, they should be respectively flown and played.

[JohnB]

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.

The Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are both, obviously, within the jurisdiction of the IRFU.
The tricolour and the Soldier's Song are representative of the Republic of Ireland as a whole and are not in the least bit contentious. The Ulster Banner and God Save the Queen are not representative of the 'Northern Irish' population (or as you put it - 'the host') and are most certainly contentious. Leaving that aside, neither have any official status in Northern Ireland.

My view is clear and simple, if Northern Ireland had it's own distinct flag and anthem, they should be respectively flown and played.

For better or worse GSTQ is the anthem of NI. I don't like it but there it is. You can't pick and choose according to your prejudice. Well, I say that, but the IRFU clearly do.

The SS not contentious? All national anthems are contentious and although players from NI don't make anything of it, don't you think they'd like a level playing field when it comes to these old fashioned symbols? By the way, we've more than a few NI supporters fron Donegal who have very real issues with the anthems. OK they're not huge amounts of people, but then there are very few of that type of person left in the RoI.

[The Fly]

For better or worse GSTQ is the anthem of NI. I don't like it but there it is. You can't pick and choose according to your prejudice. Well, I say that, but the IRFU clearly do.

The SS not contentious? All national anthems are contentious and although players from NI don't make anything of it, don't you think they'd like a level playing field when it comes to these old fashioned symbols? By the way, we've more than a few NI supporters fron Donegal who have very real issues with the anthems. OK they're not huge amounts of people, but then there are very few of that type of person left in the RoI.

God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!

On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.

[Scooby Doo]

I'd rather never see an All-Ireland team than give up my national anthem in the place of a P.C. abomination like 'Ireland's Call'. Although i agree with the concept of a one-island team 'Ireland' i feel that we would have to concede too much ground to insular Nordie demands. The Ireland national football team should represent those that are proud to call themselves Irish and not those who would rather be anything but. And just to add, the appropriation of the concept of 'Ulster' by the Unionist population seriously pi$$es me off(granted it has been going on for over a century). Ulster is the historical mecca of Irishness and Celticness. To suggest that it is somehow a symbol or creation of the Unionist psyche is ridiculous. Anyway leave the Nordies to themselves and get behind the true Irish team. I'd prefer to forsake the talents of Pat Mc Court and Jonny Evans if it means not compromising the core ideals of my national team.

[JohnB]

[QUOTE]God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!

Ah, that old chestnut. There are many things in the UK that are not in the (very disparate) constitution and therefore not official. By convention, GSTQ is the anthem of NI and also the UK. The IRFU should respect local convention. By the way, I think the decision by the IRFU has little to do with questions about official status; it's closer to your previous post about expecting players from the RoI to stand for GSTQ.


On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.

No need to apologise, I got your point. I was merely pointing out that the anthem issue is contentious to some of your fellow countrymen and women. We've quite a few of them posting on OWC;).

[JohnB]

Ulster is the historical mecca of Irishness and Celticness.

May I ask what Irishness and Celticness are?

[Scooby Doo]

May I ask what Irishness and Celticness are?
Although it would make a great (and lengthy) discussion, I'd prefer not to get into a major sociological/historical debate at four in the morning ;). But i believe that the Ulster cycle is the archetypal mainstay of historical Celtic culture that the majority of Irish people today would claim allegience to and identification with. The suggestion that the concept of Ulster is representative of the portion of the population that would describe themselves as being anything but Irish is farcical imo.

[-lamb-]

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.
nonsense. it's plain logic, not insular or biased.
facts are facts, when the ireland rugby team play in dublin the hosts are treated to different protocols than when the ireland rugby team play in belfast. i can't see any particularly valid reason why that should be the case since the rugby team is SUPPOSED to equally represent both the republic of ireland and northern ireland, yet there seems to be conditions put on this equal representation....

.....only when it suits.

[The Fly]

Ah, that old chestnut. There are many things in the UK that are not in the (very disparate) constitution and therefore not official. By convention, GSTQ is the anthem of NI and also the UK. The IRFU should respect local convention. By the way, I think the decision by the IRFU has little to do with questions about official status; it's closer to your previous post about expecting players from the RoI to stand for GSTQ.

Hardly a convention, certainly not nowadays anyway. The fact remains that is not the official anthem of Northern Ireland, nor is it representative of it. I live in Northern Ireland and am very contented that the IRFU do not respect the local 'convention' you speak of. Once again, if NI had it's own official/cross-community anthem that should be played.



No need to apologise, I got your point. I was merely pointing out that the anthem issue is contentious to some of your fellow countrymen and women. We've quite a few of them posting on OWC;).

Those posters on OWC, of which I am one, I'd say are simply sensitive to a somewhat delicate situation, like myself. Most may also live in Northern Ireland JohnB. (and be fairly enlightened)
For the record - I have always had much sympathy for players and supporters from Northern Ireland at Irish rugby matches

[The Fly]

nonsense. it's plain logic, not insular or biased.
facts are facts, when the ireland rugby team play in dublin the hosts are treated to different protocols than when the ireland rugby team play in belfast. i can't see any particularly valid reason why that should be the case since the rugby team is SUPPOSED to equally represent both the republic of ireland and northern ireland, yet there seems to be conditions put on this equal representation....

.....only when it suits.

lamb - once again, Northern Ireland or 'the host' has no official anthem or flag, the Republic of Ireland does. Once again - GSTQ has no official status and besides that, is not representative of Northern Ireland as a 'state' or entity. When 'the host'(NI) has an official, cross community anthem, that should and would be played.

[-lamb-]

The suggestion that the concept of Ulster is representative of the portion of the population that would describe themselves as being anything but Irish is farcical imo.
actually a 2008 survey states that 42% or protestants primarily called themselves some form of either northern irish, ulster or irish (57% british), whereas 34% of catholics called themselves primarily northern irish, british or ulster (61% irish). there's a lot of middle ground in there, though i understand your annoyance about using the term "ulster".


ps. to the fly. i agree with you that northern ireland should have it's own anthem (and properly official flag for that matter), but the fact is it doesn't (and highly unlikely to for many years, considering those clowns in stormont). the only one that covers it is right now also happens to cover the rest of the uk, gstq, and the only flag that covers it is the union flag, so by default logic and simple courtesy gstq should have been played and the union flag flown.

[The Fly]

ps. to the fly. i agree with you that northern ireland should have it's own anthem (and properly official flag for that matter), but the fact is it doesn't.

I know it doesn't - I have already stated that many times. We will have to wait until it does. Hopefully sooner rather than later!



the only one that covers it is right now also happens to cover the rest of the uk, gstq, so by default logic and simple courtesy it should have been played.

GSTQ doesn't 'cover it right now.' Please explain to me in what way it does.
The IFA may use it right now and will probably continue to for some time.........but that's it. The only reason it is used to represent the Northern Ireland football side is because the IFA chooses to use it.

[-lamb-]

well, it does, being the national anthem for the uk it also covers northern ireland.

[The Fly]

well, it does, being the national anthem for the uk it also covers northern ireland.

That's a tenuous argument lamb. By extension then, the Scot's and Welsh should also use it, whether that be before or after their own distinct anthems - I'm not sure. :rolleyes:

To continue this tenuous vein - the IRFU does not cover the UK.

For the record, if the IRFU decided not to play the Irish national anthem, I wouldn't have huge problem with that.
(well - maybe just a niggle) ;)

[Gather round]

I'd rather never see an All-Ireland team than give up my national anthem

Good. Not sure what you're getting so agitated about, one unlistenable dirge about fighting with your neighbors is much like another?


i feel that we would have to concede too much ground to insular Nordie demands

You don't have to concede anything; if you want to get on that high horse, all we're asking is parity of esteem; what else would an all-island team be but 'insular' ;)


The Ireland national football team should represent those that are proud to call themselves Irish and not those who would rather be anything but

Don't be a dick. We're just as Irish as you, Gibson, Kilbane or McGeady.


And just to add, the appropriation of the concept of 'Ulster' by the Unionist population seriously pi$$es me off

Why not ignore it if it upsets you so much?


For the record, if the IRFU decided not to play the Irish national anthem, I wouldn't have huge problem with that. (well - maybe just a niggle) ;)

Don't be so insular and illogical.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You are applying the insular 'logic' of Northern Ireland, to the island as a whole.

If Northern Ireland had it's own distinct anthem, then that should be played before Ireland's Call. The idea that the UK national anthem should be played for an Irish team - in any sport, is ridiculous. It would be completely farcical for the Irish rugby team to stand for GSTQ - the anthem of the English rugby team.

Even people in Britain would find it hilarious, and just a little strange!

God save the old German wan is the anthem of the whole 'Ugly K';even England have taken to using 'Jerusalem', whilst Scotland and Wales have a lot more credibility in that department!

For a 'nation' that can't choose its own anthem, what's wrong with 'Danny Boy', or if it's for an Irish rugby match at Ravenhill, 'A Nation Once Again', complete with Four Provinces flag ?? ;)
Then everyone's happy....

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't be a dick. We're just as Irish as you, Gibson, Kilbane or McGeady.


Don't be so insular and illogical.

Hmm.

Don't think the DUP, IKP & vast majority of unionist voters would agree with you....
Though bizarrely they seem more receptive to the idea of AI rugby & cricket teams. Now If they'd just do the soccer.... ;)

[Not Brazil]

Hmm.

Don't think the DUP, IKP & vast majority of unionist voters would agree with you....
Though bizarely they seem more receptive to the idea of AI rugby & cricket teams. Now If they'd just do the soccer.... ;)

IRISH Fooball Association might be a clue.;)

I've no intention of ever denouncing my Irishness, as part of my overall identity - I refuse to concede to the myopic viewpoint of "Irishness" espoused by some.

The rugby and cricket was always one side.

Football is different - there was a split.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe for you, but the majority of unionist voters don't feel this way.....they're very quick to espouse 'Britishness'. And don't seem to be in the mood to be contradicted! :rolleyes:

[micls]

Maybe for you, but the majority of unionist voters don't feel this way.....they're very quick to espouse 'Britishness'. And don't seem to be in the mood to be contradicted! :rolleyes:

Have you asked them?

Plenty of them that I know, consider themselves both British and irish i.e. Northern Irish.

[Scooby Doo]

Don't be so insular and illogical.[/QU
[QUOTE=Gather round;1279985]Good. Not sure what you're getting so agitated about, one unlistenable dirge about fighting with your neighbors is much like another?[QUOTE]

A matter of opinion Gather. I'd prefer to call it a rousing celebration of Irish unity, a yearning for freedom and a defiance against the centuries-long oppression and dictation of one of the world's oldest nations. Now if you want 'dirge' about fighting as you call it, have a listen to La Marseillaise, widely considered to be the world's most stirring and patriotic national anthem. Ámhrán na bhFiann pales in comparison in terms of violence.

You don't have to concede anything; if you want to get on that high horse, all we're asking is parity of esteem; what else would an all-island team be but 'insular' ;) [QUOTE]

Okay thats a way of looking at it.:o

Don't be a dick. We're just as Irish as you, Gibson, Kilbane or McGeady.[QUOTE]

Missing the point here Gather. If you're proud to call yourself Irish then the Irish national team is representative of you. And i doubt the trio you refer to would consider themselves anything but Irish. Kilbane in particular. Btw, hold off on the name-calling.


Why not ignore it if it upsets you so much?[QUOTE]

Find it a little difficult to ignore when Ulster rightly should epitomise the ancient celtic values and traditions that most Irish people identify with. Ulster is the birthplace of a mythology and ancient literature that is arguably only second to that of ancient Greece and to see it being used to actually separate those who would vehemently choose not to refer to themselves as Irish is a little grating to say the least.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Have you asked them?

Plenty of them that I know, consider themselves both British and irish i.e. Northern Irish.

No, but they've told me! Which was 'nice'.

You can be British or Irish, but not both! No rational person, unless they're from a mixed heritage, would be claiming multiple nationalities??
That's one thing, Gerry, Ian, Peter & Martin would all agree on. Not to mention the vast majority of the population there. Or elsewhere.
.

[Scooby Doo]

No, but they've told me! Which was 'nice'.

You can be British or Irish, but not both! No rational person, unless they're from a mixed heritage, would be claiming multiple nationalities??
That's one thing, Gerry, Ian, Peter & Martin would all agree on. Not to mention the vast majority of the population there. Or elsewhere.
.
Oh no..you've opened the floodgates!!!:eek:

[micls]

No, but they've told me! Which was 'nice'.
All of them? fair enough


You can be British or Irish, but not both! No rational person, unless they're from a mixed heritage, would be claiming multiple nationalities??
That's one thing, Gerry, Ian, Peter & Martin would all agree on. Not to mention the vast majority of the population there. Or elsewhere.
.

Rubbish.

Being Northern Irish and British are in no way contradictory, they are from Northern Ireland and are proud of their British heritage, which is their right.

'Irishness' is not simply the Gaeilge speaking, Gaa playing stereotype that some people like to claim.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Look at who Unionists vote for.
And their political ethos of what they stand for.

Just let's say there 'ain't' too many mentions of 'Irishness', apart from the recognition that they live there.


If you can find any, answers on the back of a postage stamp are welcome.
;)

[Not Brazil]

Have you asked them?

Plenty of them that I know, consider themselves both British and irish i.e. Northern Irish.

Exactly.

[Not Brazil]

You can be British or Irish, but not both! .

Totally inaccurate - but no point going there.

[Not Brazil]

Being Northern Irish and British are in no way contradictory, they are from Northern Ireland and are proud of their British heritage, which is their right.

'Irishness' is not simply the Gaeilge speaking, Gaa playing stereotype that some people like to claim.

Nail on the head - you talk sense.

[ArdeeBhoy]

OK, look forward to a cogent unionist political declaration of their 'Irishness'.......:rolleyes:
You can't deny something which doesn't, er, exist!

[Gather round]

A matter of opinion Gather...now if you want 'dirge' about fighting as you call it, have a listen to La Marseillaise, widely considered to be the world's most stirring and patriotic national anthem. Ámhrán na bhFiann pales in comparison in terms of violence

No, I'm not a big fan of tuneless, bellicose national anthems period. I'm not really interested in whether one's arguably more violent than another.


Missing the point here Gather. If you're proud to call yourself Irish then the Irish national team is representative of you. And i doubt the trio you refer to would consider themselves anything but Irish. Kilbane in particular

No, I understand your point perfectly well. It simply ignores reality: there are two international football teams from Ireland. As a proud Irishman, I support only one, the other isn't representative of me.

And no need to be defensive- I'm not suggesting anyone isn't properly Irish. But you are.


Btw, hold off on the name-calling

My apologies. Replace with "don't be a sh*t stirring wind-up".


Ulster rightly should epitomise the ancient celtic values and traditions that most Irish people identify with

As someone from there I'll choose what I identify with and want my home country to epitomise, thanks.


Ulster is the birthplace of a mythology and ancient literature that is arguably only second to that of ancient Greece and to see it being used to actually separate those who would vehemently choose not to refer to themselves as Irish is a little grating

Look, if you think ancient Ulster is comparable to the civilizations of Sumer, the Egyptian Pharaohs and Classical Antiquity that's fine- if a tad eccentric or dare I say it insular. But do stop claiming that your fellow islanders aren't Irish. It's repetitive, mildly offensive and ultimately infantile.

[seanfhear]

It may happen (an all Island team) sometime but i would say its at least 10 years away.

But for the developement of football on the Island we certainly need an all-Ireland league.

Two of the biggest clubs on the Island are Linfield and Glentoran and one of the things holding them back is some serious competition.

The new Derry club would certainly benefit from competing against them and 3/4 clubs from Dublin, 1 from Cork, Limerick ?, Galway ?, Waterford ?, Sligo ? and what about a revived Belfast Celtic or Cliftonville.

The status quo is certainly not working North or South.

It is certainly worth giving an all-Ireland league a go and its just a pity some TV broadcaster does not put money into developing an All-Ireland league.

If it were stuck at for 5/8 years then perhaps 1/2 of the Clubs could get to the group stages of the champions league and the investors could get payback for their investment.

Its a bit of a long shot in these economic times though I am sorry to say.

[Scooby Doo]

Nail on the head - you talk sense.
Okay, fair enough. But let me ask you (and i'm not trying to wind you up), lets say that an All-Ireland team came into existence. What would your opinion be on the issue of
1. Flags and emblems
2. Anthem
3. Player selection
4. Venue

Although in theory i think an All-Ireland team would be quite strong, there would be so much behind the scenes disruption and politically correct bullsh!t going on that i think all parties could regret it and the team itself could go backwards.

[Not Brazil]

Okay, fair enough. But let me ask you (and i'm not trying to wind you up), lets say that an All-Ireland team came into existence. What would your opinion be on the issue of
1. Flags and emblems
2. Anthem
3. Player selection
4. Venue


I'm not tring to wind you up either, but I'm simply not interested.

There IS an All ireland team - it represents the FAI. You keep your flags, anthems etc.

I'll be continuing to support those who play for Northern Ireland.