Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[Not Brazil]

You have discovered? Well that is absolute isn't it :rolleyes:

Do some proper research before coming out with your discovery statement, you just might find that part of the passport application for NI born was a declaration of citizenship.

Oh, I have done "proper research".

The "prescribed manner" was never defined, nor was there "an oath of allegiance", was there geysir?;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI.
Hardly a shock, but in direct contradiction of the IFA's 'Football For All'.
If they must be Hypocrites, why not come out and admit it?


it's actually quite similar to the South.
Huh? The South seas? Are you aware of Malin Head?

Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.
Not only is there no grasp of geography, but the Brits.not teach education in N.E. Ulster?
It's two finals in 15 years;1994 & 2002, as opposed to None in 23 years and counting.....
Johnny Evans had better win a lot of club medals!!
;)

[Not Brazil]

Hardly a shock, but in direct contradiction of the IFA's 'Football For All'.
If they must be Hypocrites, why not come out and admit it?


Funny enough, I was at a "Football For All" awards Dinner a couple of weeks ago - seems they're doing all right, given the amount of "nationalists" there, who enjoyed the evening.

It was magnificant to see such a diverse gathering of over 300 people involved in the sport in Northern Ireland - and none of the "nationalists" who received awards for their contribution refused their award.;)

GR made a point about Northern Irish society generally - equally, there are "nationalists" from Northern Ireland who hate the Northern Ireland team, and "unionists".

"Football For All" is about a heck of a lot more than attracting support from the "nationalist" community for the Northern Ireland team - but, hey, you carry on....

[ArdeeBhoy]

Being patriotic is not "paranoia".

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.


Funny enough, I was at a "Football For All" awards Dinner a couple of weeks ago - seems they're doing all right, given the amount of "nationalists" there, who enjoyed the evening.

It was magnificant to see such a diverse gathering of over 300 people involved in the sport in Northern Ireland - and none of the "nationalists" who received awards for their contribution refused their award.;)


"Football For All" is about a heck of a lot more than attracting support from the "nationalist" community for the Northern Ireland team
So what is it about then?

Bully for you also. Seems from their main 'public' interface and that quote above, you have a long way to go in re-educating some of your fellow fans.....
If you feel so inclined, good luck.

[Not Brazil]

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.

So what is it about then?



Nothing "paranoid" about telling something for what it is - in this case, denial of choice.

"Football For All" is about exactly what it says on the tin - people from Northern Ireland (whether they be nationalist, unionist, neither, male, female, young, old, disabled, from whatever ethnic or religious background etc, etc, etc) enjoying the game of football.

[Not Brazil]

If you feel so inclined, good luck.

I do, and thank you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But where does Walker in his article 'deny' choice?

And FFA is anti-discrimination. As in the anti-Irish & Ireland sentiments portrayed by some on that MB. Who clearly don't believe themselves to be Irish!

[geysir]

That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.

That is a very confused and irrational question, beyond repair.

With some reasonable guesswork, I think you mean to ask
'what part of the FIFA statutes of ELIG 2008 would have precluded a NI born player from declaring for the FAI in the times pre GFA?
If so
Afaics nothing, I never claimed there was.

I have only claimed that the terms of automatic citizenship equally available to all people on the Island, as was in written in the GFA and accepted into law by was influential in FIFA's position right from the beginning of the time of IFA objections.
I do believe, referring to the few quotes from FIFA legal dept at the time that such was the certainity about the equality of citizenship as was impressed upon the FIFA legal dept that the main article of eligibility did not use the term "territory of the Association" but used the all important term 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence' in article 15. The other articles of eligibility drafted in, referred to "territory of the association". Now the likes of Alex Bruce would not qualify.

Who knows how the FIFA legal department would have approached the IFA objections should the conditions of citizenship for NI born not been automatic, equal and voted upon by the people of Ireland. All I claim is that it was an important factor in drafting into the statutes 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence'.

[geysir]

With two Associations picking from exactly the same pool of players, throughout the 32 Counties, creating, de facto, Ireland "A" and Ireland "B" teams, you think that would have continued long?:eek:


Here you are supporting your contention that the IFA rejected the FIFA compromise to protect IFA autonomy.
I have said, if that was the reason then it was mistaken and claimed that the IFA rejected the compromise because they stubbornly believed they were 100% right.

Considering that part of the compromise over which the IFA have little or no control is already in practice, what autonomy have the IFA lost?

Considering now, the other other part of the compromise that is not in practice, namely that the IFA would be able select any Irish national, a part that the IFA would have total control of, what autonomy do you think the IFA would have lost?

[Not Brazil]

And FFA is anti-discrimination. As in the anti-Irish & Ireland sentiments portrayed by some on that MB. Who clearly don't believe themselves to be Irish!

It is their absolute right to define themselves as they see fit - same for me.

Unfortunately, they have capitulated to the myopic notion, expressed by many (including yourself) of what constitutes "Irish".

Equally, it isn't too hard to find "Anti Northern Ireland and British" sentiment on message boards.

Ironically some myopic thinkers claim to be "uniters". Bizarre.

[Not Brazil]

Considering that part of the compromise over which the IFA have little or no control is already in practice, what autonomy have the IFA lost?

Considering now, the other other part of the compromise that is not in practice, namely that the IFA would be able select any Irish national, a part that the IFA would have total control of, what autonomy do you think the IFA would have lost?

1. None - I believe it has strengthened it.

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

[dantheman]

First of all GR, as stated I have no hatred of the NI team and was disappointed this year that they threw away the lead in Poland and then balls-ed up against Slovakia. I do not wish to see it abolished either.


Some will, some won't. I'm reasonably content with the existing flag, although I'd prefer no crown on it as I'm not a royalist. I'd prefer a distinct anthem not shared with England, Britain as a whole or Liechtenstein.

The last time England and NI played, just the one anthem was used. Which is a bit strange for a competitive international fixture, no?
I agree that many people share your views. I don't actually think that the NI flag (not the Union Jack as the UK isn't playing) is anything to do with the IFA and all criticism here is unjustified. Leadership is required from Stormont, including nationalist politicians.
But as regards the anthem, I have to ask you honestly where is the leadership on this issue from either the Amalgamation of NISC or the IFA? As stated the IFA commissioned a report on this issue, and the recommendation was to change the anthem and they IGNORED it.
So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?


Again some think that, many don't. There are plenty of alternatives- nonn-partisan folk instrumental, pop tune, new composition by Coulter or whoever. It may change in future.

It MAY change? When would it change? You have no idea because it is not being genuinely considered. The could implement Danny Boy tomorrow were there a real desire, and work on something better in the short term.


Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI. Sometimes inevitably this will be demonstrated at football matches or on the web. But a ****-take version of the Hokey cokey's hardly blatant hatred, any more than other fans enjoying others' defeats. Bit exaggerated, don't ye think?

That was some of the milder stuff that has been posted. It was chosen as an example because one of the posters on this forum was complaining about lack of objectivity on this forum yet was posting stuff like this.
As regards lack of objectivity, by you own admission, you have deleted topics on your forum about this very issue. Is that not taking lack of objectivity to a bit of an extreme?


Good man. As you've seen, the genuinely Irish NI fans ain't interested. So it won't happen.

This makes no sense. You are only a proper Irish NI fan if you wish to have nothing to do with other Irish football fans?


Take that chip off your shoulder, Dan. Northern Ireland is an equally proper international team, regularly beats stronger countries and too occasionally challenges to qualify. But as a generally third-ranked/ mediocre achieving squad, it's actually quite similar to the South.

No chip on my shoulder, I am not stating that the NI team is not established with a history at this point. By proper international team I meant one with which players from my community can associate. That is up to the supporters/IFA to sort out.


One doesn't need to view with blinkers, or go off on a tangent about an Act of Parliament from 60 years ago.

60 years ago or not, that Act is still applicable in the UK. Acts have to applied at some stage, and it is still in force. People from the ROI are not foreign in the UK, inculding NI.


Many posters on this thread are saying the NI team should be abolished, even if they use the euphemism 'merged'. NI fans- 100% of them, self-evidently by definition- don't want this to happen. It's quite simple.

Well that I agree on and makes perfect sense. Could you provide some clarification to someone from NI what exactly meets the description of a proper "NI fan"?


I'd welcome anyone in NI or out who wants to support the team. Similarly those who, even without supporting it and/ or preferring another, will at least tolerate it as they would any other.

There are mixed views on this. There are people in the nationalist community who actively want to see the NI team beat in every match. This is not a very intelligent way of creating a consensus or arguing the case for a unified team.


It's only the RoI fans who constantly have a go at NI that bother me, and who I feel the need the answer on threads like this one.

That is not true. The last time I heard your fellow UK fans from Wales and Scotland thought little of the anthem/trappings of your team either. It was booed in both Cardiff and Glasgow.
With respect, do you not think it is a little strange that the two places where your (UK) anthem has received the worst reception are in fact in the UK itself?


I'm glad the hostility is receding, this is a positive step. As a further anecdotal example, I go to NI matches regularly with two Roman Catholics. I know others. Not sure about the proportion of the support from nationalist backgrounds, but as above if they prefer to support other teams that's fine.

I hope your two friends enjoy supporting NI. I have two who do likewise.


Come on, it doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort- everyone knows the NI side has- as well as an admittedly minority nationalist support- plenty of players, coaches etc. from nationalist backgrounds.

Players/coaches yes, fans yes. IFA no. See the sweet heart deal with Linfield and the attitude taken to Belfast Celtic/Derry. It has covered ground from its darkest days, but still has some ground to go.


I felt we- NI, IFA, fans- handled the Gibson case badly. He wanted to play for the South's youth teams, made the choice early, has progressed and good luck to the guy. I'd be more iriated if someone like Shane Duffy, who's already played regularly for our u-19 and u-21, then went off to play for the South. To prevent that, I want the IFA to seek a deal with the FAI that any adult player- over 18- who turns out for one of those teams, qualifier or friendly, is thus thereafter.

Something arrangement needs to be made about future switches, as they will certainly happen.
Ii is not right that the IFA train a player and then he declares for the FAI without either compensation from the FAI to the IFA, or the FAI taking over the training of the player at an earlier age (ie getting directly involved with schools/clubs in NI).

But I have to take issue with the term 'poaching' that is constantly applied to NI players declaring for the ROI. You would swear reading the OWC website that Delaney was travelling up at night and abducting the likes of Gibson/Duffy/Wilson/Ger Crossley from their beds! The players have enough intelligence to make up their own minds as to which path to choose. I don't think you need to be reminded of the reasons for this.
I also concede that a lot of NI fans disagreed over the Darren Gibson case. I think it is settled now, and rightly so. It is time for the FAI to step up the plate and make sure that the IFA is sorted out adequately.


I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.As someone born just up the road from me, I wish Johnny Evans the best of luck playing for Man Utd and NI.


"Football For All" is about exactly what it says on the tin - people from Northern Ireland (whether they be nationalist, unionist, neither, male, female, young, old, disabled, from whatever ethnic or religious background etc, etc, etc) enjoying the game of football.A lot of good work has been done by coaches/players divorced from the decision making process of teh IFA. They just get that anthems issue sorted out and it'll be nearly there.

They have to decide, "Do we wish to bring more nationalist fans in at the expense of losing a few Loyalist knuckle draggers?" I hope they make the right decision.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....

As for being 'Irish', people only react to what they see as anti-Irish, much it emanating from certain persons in N.E.Ulster, which could be more :rolleyes: more prevalent on an, er, Irish MB!
Nothing to do with Myopia, but knowing better! ;)

[dantheman]

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

This is certainly true, if the IFA had done this they may as well have basted themselves, stuck a holly in their ass and jumped in the oven!

[geysir]

1. None - I believe it has strengthened it.

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

That defies rational scrutiny. The part you have no control over strengthens autonomy the part that you would have total control over weakens IFA autonomy
But I can perceive some logic if I attempt to look at it from from an exclusively political Unionist perspective.

[Not Brazil]

Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....


That's interesting.

Maybe you should tell the FAI.

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=276

They have a first class relationship with the FFA folk at the IFA.

Unfortunately, whilst we share things like disabilities and ethnic minorities with the good folk of the Irish Republic, we have a problem with divided religious and cultural issues - you may have noticed, over the years.:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

That defies rational scrutiny. The part you have no control over strengthens autonomy the part that you would have total control over weakens IFA autonomy
But I can perceive some logic if I attempt to look at it from from an exclusively political Unionist perspective.

I look at it from a Northern Ireland supporter perspective.

Do honestly think that having two Irish International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would strengthen the autonomy of either Association?:eek:

[gspain]

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.


So what is it about then?

Bully for you also. Seems from their main 'public' interface and that quote above, you have a long way to go in re-educating some of your fellow fans.....
If you feel so inclined, good luck.

I really wanted to stay out of this one.

However taking delight and making fuin of a rival's defeat does not negate the excellent work done in Football for All.

I daresay even one or two Irish fans might take delight at an England defeat. Indeed there is a song that has been sung in pubs across Europe and elsewhere to the tune of Harry Belefonte's banana boat song celebrating another famous handball goal in the World Cup. I don't think we'll be singing that one again.

As for the arguments in favour of a single International football team on this island it is just not going to happen for a whole number of reasons incl political as well as naked self interest. If you are really concerned about giving Johnny Evans the chance to play in a major finals then why not a single UK team or worse still one team for both of these islands. It happens in rugby.

[Not Brazil]

Hold on - you are on foot.ie, where the overwhelming majority of posters are nationalist/republican with a Linfield avitar expressing surpise that the sentiment is one for a unitited Irish team and league?

Pull the other one mate, you know exactly whats happening. You might not like or agree with it, but save the surprise.... Myopic?

No, I'm not surprised - in the slightest.

Not sure what avatars have to do with anything - had you been following, you'd had known that I tentatively support the concept of an AI "Premier" League.

Myopic? Yeah - look it up in the dictionary.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's interesting.

Maybe you should tell the FAI.

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=276

They have a first class relationship with the FFA folk at the IFA.

Unfortunately, whilst we share things like disabilities and ethnic minorities with the good folk of the Irish Republic, we have a issue with divided religious and cultural issues - you may have noticed, over the years.:rolleyes:

That's primarily for disabled people which is great.

But not formed out of guilt because a majority of fans were religious & ethnic bigots. Though don't think most of our fans have any special religious issues....
;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

However taking delight and making fuin of a rival's defeat does not negate the excellent work done in Football for All.

It's all about the tone of that mocking though. As in being quite hateful and prevalent throughout that MB. So much so, that much of it can not be read by just 'anyone'.

Still the IFA must be very proud of such fans. And embarassed in contrast to their FfA.

[Not Brazil]

Yes, of the main one, the FAI.

What a stupid question.....

Would it weaken or strengthen the original one - the one you broke away from?

[Not Brazil]

That's primarily for disabled people which is great.

But not formed out of guilt because a majority of fans were religious & ethnic bigots. Though don't think most of our fans have any special religious issues....
;)

Yes, it is great - as is the FAI's and IFA's work with ethnic minorities.

The IFA's FFA programme was not formed out of "guilt", and a "majority" of Northern Ireland fans are not "religious & ethnic" bigots.

[Not Brazil]

It's all about the tone of that mocking though.

Isn't it just.:D

[Not Brazil]

Weaken of course.

What a stupid question.....

geysir will be in shortly to challenge you on your answer to my "stupid question".

According to him, your answer defies "rational scrutiny", and he'll think you have an "exclusively political Unionist perspective".

:D

Oh, by the way, in case you didn't know, Northern Ireland fans want nothing to do with anything that weakens the autonomy of the IFA.

Just thought I'd clear that up for you.

[Gather round]

Not only is there no grasp of geography, but the Brits.not teach education in N.E. Ulster? It's two finals in 15 years;1994 & 2002

They obviously didn't teach you basic arithmetic. Else you'd realise that the 1994 World Cup was more than 15 years ago.


But where does Walker in his article 'deny' choice?

The lazy ****-stirrer suggests the NI team be abolished. Which would obviously, er deny choice to fans who want to support it.


Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....

You (personally and with many others on this thread) clearly aren't in favor of football for all. If you were, you wouldn't be suggesting abolishing the NI team.


Hold on - you are on foot.ie, where the overwhelming majority of posters are nationalist/republican with a Linfield avitar expressing surpise that the sentiment is one for a unitited Irish team and league?

Whoa, Mr Acronym. While the overwhelming majority on foot.ie obviously support the Republic of Ireland as you'd expect, the same can't be said for united Irish leagues, let alone national teams. Many posters on the thread have pointed out that, variously

a) adding a few teams from Northern Ireland wouldn't necessarily improve standards in the League of Ireland

b) an all-Ireland team able to select from the population throughout Ireland and beyond wouldn't necessarily do any better than the existing all-Ireland team able to, er select from the population throughout Ireland and beyond

c) there's nothing in either suggestion for NI fans or those of most IL clubs.

[Not Brazil]

Of course, but like lots of things going on in your part of the world, I think history will take its own course and your opinions will have SFA to do with it.

I am more than happy to let history take it's course.

The thing about history taking it's course though, there are always people behind the wheel taking it there.

[Not Brazil]

As for c, I accept the 10,000 odd paying punters of the NI side would lose out.

Funnily enough, we have no desire whatsoever to "lose out".

Mixed vibes from IL Clubs on the AIL thingy - Setanta Cup dying it's slow death (will there be one next year??) is a set back in that regard.

[Gather round]

I have no hatred of the NI team and was disappointed this year that they threw away the lead in Poland and then balls-ed up against Slovakia. I do not wish to see it abolished either

Good man. I was in Chorzow and thought it a fair result, we hardly threw away a win.


The last time England and NI played, just the one anthem was used. Which is a bit strange for a competitive international fixture, no?

Aye, like I said it's used by three UEFA members- NI, Liechtenstein and England.


So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?

Yes, there's a will- shared by me personally. No, it isn't a majority will or a high-priority issue at present. I hope that will change.


That was some of the milder stuff that has been posted. It was chosen as an example because one of the posters on this forum was complaining about lack of objectivity on this forum yet was posting stuff like this

Come on, either it's mild- little more than banter really- or you could have posted something that really was blatantly hateful. You can find that easily on most web boards, including this one.


As regards lack of objectivity, by you own admission, you have deleted topics on your forum about this very issue. Is that not taking lack of objectivity to a bit of an extreme?

You could argue whether it was objective or subjective, but when I was a moderator and Ardee Bhoy and co. turned up with their nonsense about planter paranoia, unionists not being really Irish and the like, I had a pretty easy decision. it was moronic and sectarian, so it got zapped.


This makes no sense. You are only a proper Irish NI fan if you wish to have nothing to do with other Irish football fans?

No, read it again more carefully. I said NI fans were genuinely Irish and don't want their genuinely Irish NI team to be abolished. Can't see where you get wanting nothing to do with other Irish football fans from that?


By proper international team I meant one with which players from my community can associate

An odd definition. Aren't the other 200-odd countries in FIFA not proper international teams then?


60 years ago or not, that Act is still applicable in the UK. Acts have to applied at some stage, and it is still in force. People from the ROI are not foreign in the UK

Look, there's still a current act on the Brit statute book that says shagging the heir to the throne's missus is treason punishable by death. Doesn't mean it's relevant to whether the NI team should be abolsihed. Pretty much everyone would agree that Britain and the Republic of Ireland are two separate countries, so each is foreign to the other. Maybe not as foreign as San Marino or Andorra, but still foreign.


Could you provide some clarification to someone from NI what exactly meets the description of a proper "NI fan"?

Ha ha. To be a NI fan you need merely support NI. If you think the team should be abolished, as many on this thread do, then pretty obviously you ain't a NI fan.


There are mixed views on this. There are people in the nationalist community who actively want to see the NI team beat in every match. This is not a very intelligent way of creating a consensus or arguing the case for a unified team

I won't comment on such people's intelligence. It's more likely that they don't actually want a unified team by consensus, is it not?


That is not true. The last time I heard your fellow UK fans from Wales and Scotland thought little of the anthem/trappings of your team either. It was booed in both Cardiff and Glasgow

Dan, I think you'll find there's a pretty fundamental reason why Welsh and Scottish fans wouldn't be too keen on NI no longer having a separate international side within Britain. Do I need to spell it out for you?

Aye, their fans barracked God Save the Queen, so we just sang it all the louder. It's just pantomime villainy anyway- only a minority in both Wales and Scotland in every election and poll want independence. In practice GSTQ isn't that big a problem for them either when they play NI or generally.


See the sweet heart deal with Linfield and the attitude taken to Belfast Celtic/Derry

The Linfield deal although probably distorting of competition within the Irish League, isn't really evidence of anti-nationalist bias, is it? The disgraceful treatment of Belfast Celtic and Derry City was decades, even generations ago. Let's move on.


It is time for the FAI to step up the plate and make sure that the IFA is sorted out adequately

I've suggested how, No need for any money to directly change hands, just stop picking players who've already played adult international football elsewhere.


They have to decide, "Do we wish to bring more nationalist fans in at the expense of losing a few Loyalist knuckle draggers?"

They're already doing both. I take your broad point.

[Gather round]

Of course, but like lots of things going on in your part of the world, I think history will take its own course and your opinions will have SFA to do with it

Big talk, Comrade BYC. How will you achieve that, by abolishing elections and sending in some tanks to close Windsor Park?


If you put a or b to the foot.ie public as a poll, 99% would say 'why not'?

Put it to a poll then- just ask Gustavo or one of the other mods and they'll set one up for you.

[Not Brazil]

But as regards the anthem, I have to ask you honestly where is the leadership on this issue from either the Amalgamation of NISC or the IFA? As stated the IFA commissioned a report on this issue, and the recommendation was to change the anthem and they IGNORED it.
So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?


On 2nd February, I will be participating in a cross community, advisory panel "workshop" that will ask the question "What are the remaining barriers to inclusion?" - this will be seperated into international and club football conclusions.

I have no doubt the Anthem issue will come up, and I've no doubt recognition will also be given to fact that many will never support the International side, given their political allegiances/beliefs.

I'm firmly in the "Anthem change" camp - I believe it strengthens the "Northern Irish" identity.

The chap who wrote the IFA commissioned report (someone who I have come to know very well through various FFA activities) will also be participating in the workshop - you never know, perhaps the question of why the recommendations re: anthem were not actioned will arise?;)

Anyway, the truth is the fanbase is divided on this - the IFA are not anti change per se, and if the fans wan it, it will happen.

It is an extremely contentious issue - splitting members of SC's right down the middle.

Numerous debates on OWC will confirm this.

It is a hot topic, and, you are absolutely correct, leadership is essential.

Leaders need to bring their people with them - sometimes that takes hard work, and effort...and a lot of persuasion and reasoning. It's doubly difficult when the leaders themselves are split.

Pro changers need to listen and understand why many fans wish to retain GSTQ - I cannot just simply dismiss those views as being a nuisance.

I'm not convinced that a simple change in anthem will attract many more from the nationalist community to Northern Ireland games -and, I don't believe that should be the primary reason for doing it.

Most "nationalists" that I know, and that is many, are happy to support the ROI - their support of the ROI is not because Northern Ireland play GSTQ.

Interestingly, if, hypotheticaly, there was a singular Irish team, the anthem issue would be an issue of contention, and a potential "barrier to inclusion" - ROI fans would have a contentious matter to deal with.

To some, losing the Tricolour, and ROI National Anthem wouldn't be a problem - to others, it would cause uproar.

[gspain]

It's all about the tone of that mocking though. As in being quite hateful and prevalent throughout that MB. So much so, that much of it can not be read by just 'anyone'.

Still the IFA must be very proud of such fans. And embarassed in contrast to their FfA.

Frankly there is a lot worse in the League of Ireland section here. Dundalk v Drogheda or Bohs v Rovers. It's called rivalry. Not to mention certain fans who celebrated a winking Portuguese winger or an Argentinian hand.

I know of at least 2 RC NI fans who actively want us to lose. One whom I brought to one of our games a few years surprised me by being clearly happy when we conceded and upset when we scored. Another whom I met with some of his mates prior to one of their away trips in a Dublin pub was clearly taking the p1ss about one of our recent results.

The IFA can be proud of their fans and their Football For All Campaign.

Why don't you pop up and take a look next time they are at home when we don't have a game?

[Not Brazil]

What are you talking about?

An AIL is a realistic possibility. Once that happens, anything is possible in terms of the national sides.

I don't think the 10,000 OWC paying punters are a big enough lobby to stop this momentum if it does in fact happen.

Dream on.

On what basis do you describe an AIL as a "realistic possibility"?

I'm curious to hear the substance to such an assertion - so far, I've got "you need to be positive".

The reason why there is no substance, is there is no evidence that it would make a marked, positive, difference to the domestic game.

It fact, it could harm many clubs.

I say that from a position of not being adverse to the concept, if it was properly thought out and articulated.

It will certainly not find favour with the majority of supporters of the two biggest Clubs in Northern Ireland, if it is perceived as a threat to the autonomy of the Northern Irish International side.

If you believe that an AIL would be a back door way to the eventual establishment of a, singular, Irish International side, you would need to think again.

It doesn't matter how many fans the IFA International representative side has - so long as the IFA wish to stay in business, they will stay in business.

It matters not a jot what the "momentum" is -the people that you need to convince are the IFA and supporters of it's international representative team.

There is no "momentum" whatsoever to merge amongst either.

Nobody, amongst the intelligensia on here, has been able to articulate one good reason why Northern Ireland fans should welcome the end of their team, to form part of something with which they would have little or no affinity.

[stiffler]

Any chance somebody summarising the last 40 pages into 1 paragraph? seems to be alot of guff talk from start to finish, with a few quality posts submerged somewhere amongst the bilge.

[janeymac]

Sorry Janey, this makes no sense. Other international teams playing NI will do their best to put one over NI. Unless England are in the same group the other teams are unlikely to give them a second thought. I know of no evidence whatever that other countries are that bothered about Britain having four teams, just as there's no real fuss about Denmark having to or somwhere like Andorra (which is basically a duty-free and ski resprt jointly run by France and Spain) appearing in every FIFA/ UEFA competition. Nobody in Spain or China is particularly upset about there being a NI or Wales team- they're much more likely to use it as a justification for getting they're team (if, say, they're a Basque or Galician or one of those 48 nationalities you mentioned). Or they're insistent that autonomous regions aren't allowed to set up their own teams. Nobody- apart from a few stirrers in Ireland- gives a flying fcuk about abolishing any exisiting teams against their fans' wishes. Monaco's club side seems to do well enough in UEFA competitions. Are they really that bothered about not playing the World Cup? I think not.

So, the sum total of the NI supporters ambitions is to be a thorn in the side of a 'big' team like Spain. I bet some of the smaller countries such as Lativa are thrilled to play against you - a ramshackle stadium that is falling apart and more importantly, an extremely limited interest in watching it on TV (less cash on the tv rights to develop or sustain their local game). Bet your bottom dollar they would prefer to be playing a country with a decent sized population at least.

And fyi, I remember reading that Monaco plays in some football tournament organised for those who are not accepted as members of FIFA - there are quite a few countries involved in it as far as I know, so it is obviously an issue. I'm sure FIFA love explaining to them why the Home Nations are a special case.


Football's a precarious career, but a player good enough to feature regularly in the Champions' League later stages at 21 has a better chance than most. Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.

Its not about developing his career - its about measuring himself up against those on the world stage. Its the one thing that is missing from Ryan Giggs cv which I think is a pity that he never played in a major tournament.

[Riddickcule]

Nobody, amongst the intelligensia on here, has been able to articulate one good reason why Northern Ireland fans should welcome the end of their team, to form part of something with which they would have little or no affinity.
And for the billionth time, it works in other sports, so why not football ?

[gspain]

They can be proud that Windsor Park is slightly less of a sectarian cess pit these days?

Credit where credit is due, things have improved, but the point remains that they needed a FFA campaign before stadium closures became an issue and the fans didn't self police the bile that spilled forth.

err Windsor Park is nothing like a sectarian cesspit.

I've been to Setanta Cup games, Irish league games cup finals and Northern Ireland games in recent years.

There was sectarian singing and comments in the late 80's/early 90's. The vents of November 1993 were totally blown out of proportion down here but notwithstanding that it was not a pleasant atmosphere. It is totally different now.

Why don't you go along and take a look?

[Not Brazil]

And for the billionth time, it works in other sports, so why not football ?

Once upon a time.....:rolleyes:

There never was a "Northern Ireland" in these other sports...unfortunately, from your perspective, there is in football. Didn't used to be 2 teams, but.....

I never had the choice to watch "Northern Ireland" play rugby etc.

Seeing most of the players I follow at International level denied the opportunity to play International football holds no appeal.

If you think the ROI + Evans would be world beaters, you're deluded.

Sorry - holding up "other sports" in such a way doesn't cut the mustard.

[Not Brazil]

Its the one thing that is missing from Ryan Giggs cv which I think is a pity that he never played in a major tournament.

If only Wales had merged with England eh?:rolleyes:

[dantheman]

Good man. I was in Chorzow and thought it a fair result, we hardly threw away a win.
2 point dropped when you are qualifying for the World Cup!



Aye, like I said it's used by three UEFA members- NI, Liechtenstein and England.
No. Liechenstein uses the same hymn, but NI and England use the same anthem (except the NI fans sing two more words than the English :D). This does not do your argument against a Team UK any favours, the fact that you choose to use the UK anthem as your own?


Yes, there's a will- shared by me personally. No, it isn't a majority will or a high-priority issue at present. I hope that will change.
Well hoping something will change doesn't really inspire any one with confidence!!
You can't really give off when people rightly criticise the IFA or the Amalgamation.


Come on, either it's mild- little more than banter really- or you could have posted something that really was blatantly hateful. You can find that easily on most web boards, including this one.
I can find much worse very quickly. As stated that particular example was against the hypocrisy of one particular poster.



You could argue whether it was objective or subjective, but when I was a moderator and Ardee Bhoy and co. turned up with their nonsense about planter paranoia, unionists not being really Irish and the like, I had a pretty easy decision. it was moronic and sectarian, so it got zapped.
A decision you made, but not engaging in debate is hardly a mature way to go. I acknowledge people will go on that website just to slate NI team. They dont last long, but genuine posters are also talked down or removed.

If you can't have a reasonable debate on issued like this on your main fans forum then there is little hope for FFA.


No, read it again more carefully. I said NI fans were genuinely Irish and don't want their genuinely Irish NI team to be abolished. Can't see where you get wanting nothing to do with other Irish football fans from that?

I take your point in theory, but that is hardly the practise on the ground. Going into Windsor Park with an Ireland T-Shirt would not be well received.


An odd definition. Aren't the other 200-odd countries in FIFA not proper international teams then?

Only NI and the ROI directly apply to people born in NI (as per the GFA).



Look, there's still a current act on the Brit statute book that says shagging the heir to the throne's missus is treason punishable by death. Doesn't mean it's relevant to whether the NI team should be abolsihed. Pretty much everyone would agree that Britain and the Republic of Ireland are two separate countries, so each is foreign to the other. Maybe not as foreign as San Marino or Andorra, but still foreign.
You stated the age of the act, that has nothing to do with its relevance. It is simply not true that say Donegal is foreign from Belfast. I don't see why you can't understand this.


Ha ha. To be a NI fan you need merely support NI. If you think the team should be abolished, as many on this thread do, then pretty obviously you ain't a NI fan.
No but if you support NI because it currently exists but would prefer an All-Ireland team then are you not a true NI fan. This hardly gives rise to producing a fan base representative of the wider NI community.



I won't comment on such people's intelligence. It's more likely that they don't actually want a unified team by consensus, is it not?
That I don't know.


Dan, I think you'll find there's a pretty fundamental reason why Welsh and Scottish fans wouldn't be too keen on NI no longer having a separate international side within Britain. Do I need to spell it out for you?

No need to spell anything out as you didn't read what I said! I never stated that Wales/Scotland wanted a Team UK. You also seem to think that the merging of the FAI/IFA would affect the scots or welsh teams. That would probably not be the case.
I said that the playing of GSTQ at their grounds was not received well. I can understand their bemusement of course, as they sensibly have anthems of their own. As does every team in the world except for two, England and NI. Of these two, only NI's is contentious. This is hardly a good place to be in.


Aye, their fans barracked God Save the Queen, so we just sang it all the louder. It's just pantomime villainy anyway- only a minority in both Wales and Scotland in every election and poll want independence. In practice GSTQ isn't that big a problem for them either when they play NI or generally.

Sweet Jesus. He who shouts loudest is not necessarily right.

As regards polls, this is misleading. The vote for independence does not translate into national identity, as you well know is the same in NI. Most Scots/Welsh identify themselves as Scottish/Welsh first.


The Linfield deal although probably distorting of competition within the Irish League, isn't really evidence of anti-nationalist bias, is it? The disgraceful treatment of Belfast Celtic and Derry City was decades, even generations ago. Let's move on.
As Linfield was an anti-Catholic club I suggest that it actually was. Linfield have dropped their sectarian signing policy, unique amongst IL clubs. Given that they were the favoured club of the IFA is hardly something to be proud of. We'll move on when the issues are dealt with (ie the deal stated).


They're already doing both. I take your broad point.
They're not really, as you anthem point above demonstrates. Sadly.

[dantheman]

The IFA's FFA programme was not formed out of "guilt"

This is true, the IFA would have continued on ad infinitum unless some fans made the effort to improve the atmosphere. They deserve credit

[dantheman]

Any chance somebody summarising the last 40 pages into 1 paragraph? seems to be alot of guff talk from start to finish, with a few quality posts submerged somewhere amongst the bilge.

This is the greatest thread of all time. On any forum!

[Not Brazil]

As Linfield was an anti-Catholic club I suggest that it actually was. Linfield have dropped their sectarian signing policy, unique amongst IL clubs

When did they drop that dan?

Did anybody tell Gerry Morgan about it?

You are aware that Linfield FC have one of the most "mixed " playing staffs on the island today ie. in 2009?

Moved on - as the saying goes.

[dantheman]

On 2nd February, I will be participating in a cross community, advisory panel "workshop" that will ask the question "What are the remaining barriers to inclusion?" - this will be seperated into international and club football conclusions.

I have no doubt the Anthem issue will come up, and I've no doubt recognition will also be given to fact that many will never support the International side, given their political allegiances/beliefs.

I'm firmly in the "Anthem change" camp - I believe it strengthens the "Northern Irish" identity.

The chap who wrote the IFA commissioned report (someone who I have come to know very well through various FFA activities) will also be participating in the workshop - you never know, perhaps the question of why the recommendations re: anthem were not actioned will arise?;)

Anyway, the truth is the fanbase is divided on this - the IFA are not anti change per se, and if the fans wan it, it will happen.

It is an extremely contentious issue - splitting members of SC's right down the middle.

Numerous debates on OWC will confirm this.

It is a hot topic, and, you are absolutely correct, leadership is essential.

Leaders need to bring their people with them - sometimes that takes hard work, and effort...and a lot of persuasion and reasoning. It's doubly difficult when the leaders themselves are split.

Pro changers need to listen and understand why many fans wish to retain GSTQ - I cannot just simply dismiss those views as being a nuisance.

I'm not convinced that a simple change in anthem will attract many more from the nationalist community to Northern Ireland games -and, I don't believe that should be the primary reason for doing it.

Most "nationalists" that I know, and that is many, are happy to support the ROI - their support of the ROI is not because Northern Ireland play GSTQ.

Interestingly, if, hypotheticaly, there was a singular Irish team, the anthem issue would be an issue of contention, and a potential "barrier to inclusion" - ROI fans would have a contentious matter to deal with.

To some, losing the Tricolour, and ROI National Anthem wouldn't be a problem - to others, it would cause uproar.

Well that's a bit more like it.
Any efforts to create a "Northern Irish" team and not a British "Northern Irish" team Should be welcomed. I am amazed that this report was not implemented. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

Hopefully some leadership from the IFA and the fans will emerge.

[Not Brazil]

This is true, the IFA would have continued on ad infinitum unless some fans made the effort to improve the atmosphere. They deserve credit

Perhaps it might have occured to people that many of us (Northern Ireland supporters) don't like sectarianism one little bit?

Perhaps the penny dropped that sectarianism was having a negative effect on the IFA, not least financially?

Maybe some smart people concluded that sectarianism is just plain, err, wrong?

Maybe those who care (both at the IFA and amongst the fans) should just say "fcuk this, why bother?"

[Not Brazil]

Well that's a bit more like it.
Any efforts to create a "Northern Irish" team and not a British "Northern Irish" team Should be welcomed.

I couldn't agree more - and, furthermore, I don't think that diminishes the "Britishness" of any individual.

[dantheman]

When did they drop that dan?

Did anybody tell Gerry Morgan about it?

You are aware that Linfield FC have one of the most "mixed " playing staffs on the island today ie. in 2009?

Moved on - as the saying goes.

They have not moved on! The deal is still there!

The deal that the IFA signed with the Linfield occured BEFORE Linfield changed their signing policy. That was my point.

[Riddickcule]

We all know it's gonna happen eventually so lets say we wrap it up eh?:rolleyes:

;)

[peadar1987]

Is this poo-flinging contest still going on?!

[Not Brazil]

They have not moved on! The deal is still there!

The deal that the IFA signed with the Linfield occured BEFORE Linfield changed their signing policy. That was my point.

By any stretch of the imagination, Linfield FC have certainly moved on, in terms of it's playing staff.

The current "deal" between Linfield FC and the IFA was overseen by another party - as I suspect you well know.

Anyway, the current contract will soon be renegotiated, as part of the redevelopment plan for Windsor Park - again, it'll be a condition of another party with a vested interest.

Can I ask when this "No Catholics policy" came into place at Linfield FC - was it in the Club rules?

I was reading recently about one of our players (he's named after a previous Pope) being the subject of bigoted abuse at the hands of local nationalists/republicans in the (not very unionist) area from which he hails.

I also recently found myself in the home of a relative of another of our players, in the heart of nationalist/republican West Belfast, who told me of the pride the player had in being a Linfield player.

Two years ago I went to speak with a youth group on the Falls Road - I asked why they wanted me to come talk with them.

The reason was that two local kids, members of the youth club, had recently signed for Linfield and were getting some abuse.

If someone had told me 10 years ago that I'd be standing on the Falls Road, with two kids in Celtic tracksuits with Linfield shirts underneath, I don't think I'd have believed them. The kids spoke of how welcome they felt at Linfield, and how they enjoyed playing for the Club.

I'm minded of a youth match a couple of years back between St Oliver Plunkett and Linfield - Jim Magilton was there (former SOP player?) - he spoke about his admiration for the kid playing centre forward for the Blues, and asked where he was from. When told "about three doors down from your ma's house Jim", he near choked.

I think of the Drogheda fans who were guests of Linfield supporters on the Shankill Road before a Setanta Cup game - I think of the friendships forged, and the respect shown for differences (That was captured on the local news, and is still on Youtube)

You see, these are the things that have the power to unite - to continue demonising serves only to destroy.

I have to say, I think things are moving on at Windsor Park.