Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[The Fly]

Working together we can achieve so much more than we can apart- okay we may lose a bit of our old identity, an identity based on differences rather than common ground- but we will create a new identity as one Irish team, stronger, more competitive, and most importantly, united.

Agreed, but only time will tell.

[EalingGreen]

However, the point you are making here, in relation to this discussion, would apply more to the UK and the Republic of Ireland, as political entities, deciding to combine to form one international football team.You are confusing two different issues.
Permitting one Nation State (eg UK, Denmark or China) to have more than international football team is not the same as requiring/permitting two independent Nation states (eg UK and ROI) to combine two international football teams to create one.
As regards the former, there is no doubt that certain Associations within FIFA resent that the UK has four teams (though I would guess that this resentment may be less marked currently than during the 1980's and 90's i.e. when Scot and NI were qualifying for the WC Finals, as well as England).
That said, in addition to the written guarantees which the 4 Home Nations secured in return for rescuing FIFA from bankruptcy after WWII, the politics (small "p") of football also ensure that we have strong backing in other quarters.
For with FIFA operating on a "One Member, One Vote" basis, the other Confederations frequently gang up on UEFA in votes at Congress etc, despite UEFA providing the overwhelming bulk of FIFA's revenues and also being the powerhouse of world football, at both club and country level.
Therefore UEFA is only too pleased to have an extra three Member votes at FIFA. This explains why, for instance, on a busy international football evening in March last year, of all the matches Michel Platini might have attended, he picked a NI friendly with Georgia(!) at Windsor. Ostensibly, this was to present David Healy with a UEFA Goalscoring Award, but I have no doubt the real reason was to allow Platini to "press the flesh" with the recently elected IFA President, Raymond Kennedy.
By the same token, therefore, with just 53 UEFA Members out of 208 in FIFA, UEFA would likely be reluctant to lose even one extra Association's vote by merging the IFA and FAI.
And as I argued earlier, FIFA would also likely be hostile to such a move, albeit for reasons of principle, rather than "politics".
Therefore, I feel an all-UK Team poses a (marginally) greater threat to the IFA's independence than an all-Ireland team, but I'm not losing any sleep over either, tbh.

[EalingGreen]

Hopefully Darron Gibson and Marc Wilson do make a big impression for the Republic. This may encourage young Duffy at Everton to play for the republic.
As an NI fan, I would make a clear distinction between those players.
Duffy has a parent from the ROI and Wilson a Grandparent, so both should be perfectly entitled to play for the FAI team.
Whereas Gibson has neither, nor has he ever resided there; therefore, notwithstanding that FIFA permit it, imo he should not be allowed to represent the FAI team as a matter of principle.


So long as it is within the rules I see nothing wrong with players taking their choice.If you believe that the likes of Gibson should be allowed to choose to represent "his" country (ROI), can we take it that the likes of Steven Davis or Jonny Evans should equally be allowed to represent their country?

That is, you would oppose the enforced abolition of the NI team, whether by merger with the FAI team, or by some other mechanism?

Or, like most of the other posters on this Board who would do away with my team, do you blithely ignore this glaring inconsistency in the argument, even at the risk of being shown up to be a hypocrite?

[EalingGreen]

This is an interesting point EG and something those calling for an united team should consider. Indeed the current application of the eligibility rules with respect to the island of Ireland highlights the concept of footballing nationhood as it permits NI born players to play for the team representing their nation. Given your understanding of the footballing nationhood concept, it's somewhat amusing to think back to your stance on the eligibility rules thread.In your haste to score petty points, you once again confuse two separate, if related, issues.
That is, the independence and integrity of any given National Football Association is not the same as the eligibility of a player to represent one Association as against another.

But for the record, when discussing this latter issue (i.e. in the context of Gibson), until the matter was finally adjudicated by FIFA, I never once claimed that the IFA would win their case.

Rather, in common with the likes of Gspain and one or two others, I consistently argued that there were two ways FIFA could go with their interpreatation of the Statutes etc, since the matter was never so clear-cut as some people made out. Moreover, my opinion as to which way it would go changed several times, as the debate raged. I remember, for instance, being encouraged by the remarks made to an RTE Reporter at Dublin Airport by John Delaney, as he (JD) flew back hurriedly* from meeting FIFA: i.e. "We [FAI] have won the battle [Gibson], but lost the war [eligibility]"

Alas, something occurred to change this prediction - perhaps a late delivery to Switzerland of a large gift of FAI-brand Fudge?

Anyhow, you clearly made a common mistake of the ineffably partisan of reading into my posts what you wanted/expected to see, rather than what was actually written. Oh well.

* - To sack Steve Staunton

[osarusan]

Whereas Gibson has neither, nor has he ever resided there; therefore, notwithstanding that FIFA permit it, imo he should not be allowed to represent the FAI team as a matter of principle.


Let's not go down this road again. We've been over all this before, and if it happens again on this thread, any kind of debate will be lost.

[osarusan]

If you believe that the likes of Gibson should be allowed to choose to represent "his" country (ROI), can we take it that the likes of Steven Davis or Jonny Evans should equally be allowed to represent their country?

That is, you would oppose the enforced abolition of the NI team, whether by merger with the FAI team, or by some other mechanism?

Or, like most of the other posters on this Board who would do away with my team, do you blithely ignore this glaring inconsistency in the argument, even at the risk of being shown up to be a hypocrite?

Absolutely spot on. Remember the fight (correct in my opinion, but obviously not Ealing Green's) to allow players who don't feel represented by the IFA and NI team the right to play for the ROI team. Remember the argument that these players were effectively being forced to either play for a national side they didn't want to play for, or to have no international career at all.

By merging the IFA and FAI, the exact same situation would be created - a number of players would be forced to either play for a team which they felt was not representative of them, or have no international career at all.

The difference being, that this time it's "them" who have the problem, not "us". And that makes it ok.

[Crosby87]

As of now, argueably how many players from the NI team would start for the ROI team?

[EalingGreen]

And whilst I don't agree with EG, his 'new improved more mellow' approach states a position far more eloquently in one post re.the IFA 'situation', than his 'countrymen' (Are they 'British' or 'Irish' today??) :rolleyes: have managed in 50 or more....
[/i]
In the post to which you refer, I outlined my opinion why I feel FIFA could not countenance the merger of the two Irish Associations (before any political unity, at any rate).
Whereas NB and GR between them outlined all the reasons why FIFA (or any other body) would not merge the two Associations.
As such, I am in complete agreement with both of them, since their case augments, rather than contradicts my case (and v.v.) - another example of the united and unanimous determination of NI fans to reject any proposal to do away with our team!

P.S. Re your question to NB and GR whether "they are 'British' or 'Irish' today", i imagine that both would answer that they are (proudly) both - today and every other day. In that respect, I am also entirely at one with them!

[EalingGreen]

Does the fact that FIFA recognises the right of NI born players to represent the ROI (and vice versa?) not suggest that they may be sympathetic to two associations (consensually) merging, perhaps recognising unusual if not unique circumstances?
Actually if you think about it, it suggests the opposite (imo).
For it was (I suspect) a tacit acknowledgement by FIFA that their interpretation of their Statutes over Gibson had the effect of favouring one of their Members (FAI), to the direct disadvantage of another (IFA) and they hoped to "compensate" us, by means of this contrivance.
Otherwise, if they were unconcerned to keep the two Associations distinct and independent, why bother allowing each to pick players from the other's jurisdiction? Why not take this to its logical conclusion and simply merge the two?
Answer: They were neither prepared to, or wanted to, since that would open a much greater "can of worms".



Just because they've never done so in the past doesn't mean they never would. My granny's 95 and hasn't died yet, but it doesn't mean she never will.
Yet another example of someone trying to be clever, but only achieving the opposite*!


* - In case you don't get it, your granny's death is inevitable, whereas a merger of the two Associations, or even of a United Ireland, is not.

[geysir]

Are you sure about that? I had it in my mind that it was offered, but the IFA turned it down as wanted to continue to argue against the idea of the FAI getting players from IFA jurisdiction.

So actually, "offered and refused" would be right!

Or am I mistaken?

Offered yes but refused as if to indicate some high ground?

We all know that NI will play players born outside the IFA territory.
All we know is that the 2 associations (the FAI and the IFA) did not come to an agreement on that FIFA compromise. Both associations refused to believe they were anything but 100% correct. Both thought their position in interpretation of FIFA statutes were right and were sure of their position to even discuss a compromise.
Even when FIFA spelled out for the IFA in black and white in the rule book, they refused to believe they were wrong. They kept claiming victory on their website long after the pennies had dropped elsewhere.

In the FIFA view of the world, the GFA clause that related to automatic citizenship for all born on the Island and the acceptance of that GFA agreement by the people in NI, made all the difference.
Previous to the GFA, citizenship to NI born was a right but not an automatic right. An aspiring Irish citizen from NI had an extra requirement to satisfy the Dept. of Foreign Affairs, namely to declare an oath of allegiance to the Irish constitution. After the GFA this extra requirement no longer applied.

IMO, FIFA would have no problem in recognising an AI team if there was football association unity even before political unity was realised. Political unity would not be a requisite. As the IFA has a vastly higher % of naysayers than are present in the general population of NI, the prospects of football unity happening before political unity are not realistic.

[EalingGreen]

an AI team was less about agreement with the IFA (though that would be preferred) and more about such a 'notional' team having improved chances of qualifying....
In theory, such a team might be expected to have improved chances etc.
Yet in practice, experience suggests no such thing.
For example, Germany has, if anything, declined as a world footballing power since West and East reunited.
By contrast, how do the records of Russia and Ukraine compare with that of the former USSR? I don't notice any great decline, tbh, either at club or international level.
Ditto the fortunes of Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia etc, since the break-up of Yugoslavia.
And if you look at the Czechs and Slovaks, both are managing separately to qualify for tournament Finals, at least as comfortably as when they were one country*

Anyhow, when it comes to international footballing success, having larger numbers of potential players (China? India? Indonesia?) is much less important imo than having a genuinely united team, led by a decent manager. As such, I fear that any all-Ireland team would actually be diminished re. unity of purpose, whilst in no less danger of being managed by a McIlroy or even a Staunton :eek:


* - And before anyone mentions Euro 1976, I don't think you can compare an 8 team knockout finals with the present challenges, nor overlook the fact that 9 of the winning XI in 1976 were Slovaks i.e. Slovakia alone might just as easily have won the trophy.



And yes we know the majority of certain sports fans are against it. Fair enough. Though sounding less like a :rolleyes: broken record might help.I think you'll find it is never NI fans who produce this record from their collection, but invariably ROI fans - usually after they have been frustrated/disappointed/embarrassed by the efforts of their team. Again.
So if you can't bear to witness our defending ourselves, stop attacking us in the first place.

[Not Brazil]

Previous to the GFA, citizenship to NI born was a right but not an automatic right. An aspiring Irish citizen from NI had an extra requirement to satisfy the Dept. of Foreign Affairs, namely to declare an oath of allegiance to the Irish constitution. After the GFA this extra requirement no longer applied.


Are you 100% sure about that?

Article 2 of The Constitution of the Irish Republic, pre GFA, would infer differently.

The Constitution (then) didn't recognise Northern Ireland - why then did it have "special" Citizenship requirements for Irish Citizens born in Northern Ireland?

[third policeman]

If you believe that the likes of Gibson should be allowed to choose to represent "his" country (ROI), can we take it that the likes of Steven Davis or Jonny Evans should equally be allowed to represent their country?

That is, you would oppose the enforced abolition of the NI team, whether by merger with the FAI team, or by some other mechanism?

Or, like most of the other posters on this Board who would do away with my team, do you blithely ignore this glaring inconsistency in the argument, even at the risk of being shown up to be a hypocrite?


I think that you guys (EG, GR and NB) fundamentally misunderstand the proposition. We are talking about MERGER. In this sense ROI fans who advocate this idea are equally suggesting that the ROI team be "abolished." Can you explain why it is that no ROI fan has reacted to the suggestion in these terms, as if this represented some profound threat to their very sense of personal and national identity. I think you are actually making my point. Your argument has nothing to do with football, but everything to do with a Unionist siege mentality, where the NI team is one of the few remaining embelms of seperateness. As someone who was brought up supporting NI first, this is eaxctly what makes me uncomfortable. If the NI team is nothing more than Orangism at play, then quite frankly it probably should be abolished.

[Stuttgart88]

Yet another example of someone trying to be clever, but only achieving the opposite*!

* - In case you don't get it, your granny's death is inevitable, whereas a merger of the two Associations, or even of a United Ireland, is not.No, just an example of someone trying to approach this issue from a light-hearted, fair and non-antagonistic approach.

[geysir]

Are you 100% sure about that?

Article 2 of The Constitution of the Irish Republic, pre GFA, would infer differently.

The Constitution (then) didn't recognise Northern Ireland - why then did it have "special" Citizenship requirements for Irish Citizens born in Northern Ireland?

If I wasn't sure, I would have stated so ;)

The rights to citizenship for NI born pre GFA was spelled out by the
Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956
Irish Nationality and Citizens Act1956 (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/ConsolidationINCA.pdf/Files/ConsolidationINCA.pdf)

Explnations of this act can be found on Wikipedia.
The key difference for NI born was that they were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic.
I did read once upon a time on the Dept of Foreign affairs, the requirement for NI Born pre GFA and the only difference I could see for passport application was that a NI born had to declare an oath to uphold the Irish constitution.
Much anecdotal evidence from NI born that they had to go through this extra process pre gfa, supports this

[Not Brazil]

We are talking about MERGER. If the NI team is nothing more than Orangism at play, then quite frankly it probably should be abolished.

No thanks with the "merger" thingy bud.

You comment about "orangism at play" is, frankly, ridiculous....and somewhat ironic on more than one level.

Why would you want our Association "abolished"?:confused:

Do you not see how such outright hostility lessens your, erm, arguement?

(Not much "merger" in abolishment:rolleyes:)

[Not Brazil]

If I wasn't sure, I would have stated so ;)

The rights to citizenship for NI born pre GFA was spelled out by the
Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956
Irish Nationality and Citizens Act1956 (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/ConsolidationINCA.pdf/Files/ConsolidationINCA.pdf)


Really?:eek:

Where, exactly, does that "spell out" the requirement for a Northern Irish born person to "declare an oath of allegiance" to the Constitution of the Irish Republic, in order to become an "Irish Citizen"?

[Not Brazil]

Much anecdotal evidence from NI born that they had to go through this extra process pre gfa, supports this

That's strange - both my late parents (Northern Irish born) held Irish Passports. I can assure you neither of them "declared an oath of allegiance" to the Constitution of the Republic Of Ireland.;)

[janeymac]

EalingGreen - you are not comparing like with like when comparing Ireland with the fortunes of teams that have been split / combined. Ukraine has a population of about 50 million. Czech Rep. has about 10 m and Slovenia approx. 6 m to select from. Choosing from approx. 6m seems to be about the number where you have a bit of a chance.

Elsewhere you have made comments about the IFA's voting power (influence?) with FIFA/EUFA and Michael Platini visiting the new IFA president (I seem to remember him coming down to Dublin to visit as well!). What use was that when you needed to be able to exert influence over the Gibson eligibility. IFA have about as much influence with EUFA/FIFA as the FAI. Contrast the blazer influence on sport that the IFA with the IRFU. Internat. Rugby Board / ERC headquarters in Dublin and an Ulsterman (Syd Miller) just stepped down from being IRB chairman (having previously been IRFU President). More than likely why Irish people do well in these organisations is that we are not England and are seen to be neutral, whereas the IFA are just about hanging in there because of the English influence. Without English support, I'd say no notice whatsoever would be taken of the Home Nations.

[Not Brazil]

Offered yes but refused as if to indicate some high ground?


No - refused to protect our autonomy.

Good move, for once, by the IFA.;)

[janeymac]

James Connolly? :rolleyes:

And look at what happened to him for his trouble! (though perhaps he considered himself to be Irish anyway).

[geysir]

That's strange - both my late parents (Northern Irish born) held Irish Passports. I can assure you neither of them "declared an oath of allegiance" to the Constitution of the Republic Of Ireland.;)

I don't know what your evidence is supported by.
My evidence is supported by the text of the 1956 ACT, the interpretations of this act by the highest legal minds and its unchallenged application up to the time of the GFA.

Irish Statute Book (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0026/index.html)

Citizenship (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0026/sec0006.html#zza26y1956s6)

6.—(1) Every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth.


Formalities to be complied with in certain cases (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0026/index.html)

7.—(1) Pending the re-integration of the national territory, subsection (1) of section 6 shall not apply to a person, not otherwise an Irish citizen, born in Northern Ireland on or after the 6th December, 1922, unless, in the prescribed manner, that person, if of full age, declares himself to be an Irish citizen or, if he is not of full age, his parent or guardian declares him to be an Irish citizen. In any such case, the subsection shall be deemed to apply to him from birth.
(2) Neither subsection (2) nor (4) of section 6 shall confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if the father or mother through whom he derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland, unless—
( a ) that person's birth is registered under section 27, or
( b ) his father or mother, as the case may be, was at the time of his birth resident abroad in the public service.

As can be read, a declaration of citizenship had to be made. In this declaration was the text to uphold the constitution. In the Dept of For. Affairs, in the application for passport for NI born, this extra requirement was mandatory.

[Not Brazil]

As can be read, a declaration of citizenship had to be made. In this declaration was the text to uphold the constitution. In the Dept of For. Affairs, in the application for passport for NI born, this extra requirement was mandatory.

Have you access to a copy of the said declaration?

[geysir]

No - refused to protect our autonomy.

Good move, for once, by the IFA.;)

That may be your interpretation. But autonomy was not challenged by the FIFA compromise. At best, you could claim in a mistaken belief that the autonomy was under attack and that was the reason for the IFA rejection of the compromise.
However, my interpretation that the 2 associations had a stubborn belief in their position re the statutes of eligibility carries much more gravitas :)
The belief of the IFA was not based on autonomy, it was based on (mistaken) interpretation of the eligibility statutes. It was based on protecting on what they regarded as the pool of players available to be selected for the NI team.

As has been demonstrated, the IFA have been proved very willing to apply the rules of eligibility as they exist, to the selection of players for their team without any threat coming to the autonomy of the IFA.

[geysir]

Have you access to a copy of the said declaration?
Check your grandparents, surely once upon a time they would have had a copy framed and displayed :D
I have had no personal need to declare citizenship or apply for a passport under those circumstances.

It is surely enough for the purposes of my main point, to accept the central point of how the subtle changes that came about in the GFA affected FIFA´s position re eligibility.
The significance of that subtle change was missed by me for quite some time until somebody I knew kept pointing it out and observed how it was mentioned by the FIFA legal head (Herrera?).

[Not Brazil]

That may be your interpretation. But autonomy was not challenged by the FIFA compromise.

With two Associations picking from exactly the same pool of players, throughout the 32 Counties, creating, de facto, Ireland "A" and Ireland "B" teams, you think that would have continued long?:eek:

[Not Brazil]

It is surely enough for the purposes of my main point, to accept the central point of how the subtle changes that came about in the GFA affected FIFA´s position re eligibility.
The significance of that subtle change was missed by me for quite some time until somebody I knew kept pointing it out and observed how it was mentioned by the FIFA legal head (Herrera?).

In reality, the "subtle changes" are largely irrelevant, in the context that anyone born in Northern Ireland who wanted to "declare" themselves an Irish Citizen pre GFA could and did.

In essence, nothing important changed.

IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA, there could be many interesting twists long into the future.

[Gather round]

It seems you cannot detect tone in people's posts
Maybe not. But remember this is the internet, not a face-to-face conversation. You- and I, and everyone else- need to explain what we mean...


Once again, for which party do you expect those people to vote for? Which party presents a viable alternative at this time? Does a 'Northern Ireland Nationalist Party' exist GR? I'll resist answering for you

I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.


you do post a lot more on foot.ie than you do on your own supporters website - OWC

True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.


In addition to this, if you believe that the SDLP and SF are "basically single issue parties", then I'll assume, quite reasonably, that you believe the UUP and DUP to be likewise

Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?


Change happens in increments, not in one foul swoop! I recommend that you read the works of Edmund Burke

I have thanks, at school, university and since. It's one FELL swoop btw.


It's not the same in England, I'll ask you again; are you being deliberately dense? The assembly here in NI does not operate on the 'first past the post' system, unless you have forgotten. It is based on the principle of power-sharing under the D'Hondt method to ensure that Northern Ireland's largest political communities, the Unionist and Nationalist communities both participate in governing the region

Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.


The only 'substantial' cross-community party in Northern Ireland is the Alliance Party, which officially designates itself as 'Other'. Despite this, it has remained a minnow in NI politics. Are you keeping up this time GR?

Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?

If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?


Does the fact that FIFA recognises the right of NI born players to represent the ROI (and vice versa?) not suggest that they may be sympathetic to two associations (consensually) merging, perhaps recognising unusual if not unique circumstances?

Quite possibly. The consensus, obviously is the stumbling block. And recent events suggest we can hardly rely on FIFA to act reasonably in every case...


An AI league could easily happen without an AI team, no?

Aye, I could see it happening mid-term IF the Setanta Cup was a sustained success.


In the longer term however, it may prove to be a good thing for the future of football in NI - if it promotes a certain self-examination within the IFA and Northern Ireland footballing circles in general

I'd agree with the broad point- self-analysis is no bad thing- and the specific. We should have dropped the case a lot earlier than we did. What's needed, I think, is a mutual agreement with the FAI that once a player has represented internationally as an adult- over 18- he should be tied. U-19, U-21, friendlies as well as qualifiers.


Those who leave Ireland realize the divisions are ridiculously superficial once they go to a place like Canada or the U.S. where the cultural makeup is amazingly diverse

Ask any of your mates in say, Detroit if they ever visit the nearby town of Windsor (no pun intended) over the river. You know what separates them? That's right, a border...


Working together we can achieve so much more than we can apart- okay we may lose a bit of our old identity, an identity based on differences rather than common ground- but we will create a new identity as one Irish team, stronger, more competitive, and most importantly, united

Nice slogan. But you've already got a united Ireland team, without abolishing our team.


I think that you guys (EG, GR and NB) fundamentally misunderstand the proposition. We are talking about MERGER. In this sense ROI fans who advocate this idea are equally suggesting that the ROI team be "abolished"

No, we understand it perfectly well. You can call it what you like, but we'll continue quite reasonably to see it as a planned takover which we oppose totally. Whether or not you regard your own team and FA as having been abolished at the same time.


Your argument has nothing to do with football, but everything to do with a Unionist siege mentality

Don't be absurd. It's about abolishing the NI team!


where the NI team is one of the few remaining embelms of seperateness. As someone who was brought up supporting NI first, this is eaxctly what makes me uncomfortable

I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable, we will continue to try to make you and others feel welcome. But...


If the NI team is nothing more than Orangism at play, then quite frankly it probably should be abolished

It clearly isn't, so equally frankly there's a limit to the extent to which any reasoned discussion with you on the issue is possible.


Slovenia approx. 6 m to select from

Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?


More than likely why Irish people do well in these organisations is that we are not England and are seen to be neutral, whereas the IFA are just about hanging in there because of the English influence. Without English support, I'd say no notice whatsoever would be taken of the Home Nations

Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.

[geysir]

In reality, the "subtle changes" are largely irrelevant, in the context that anyone born in Northern Ireland who wanted to "declare" themselves an Irish Citizen pre GFA could and did.

In essence, nothing important changed.

Whether you regard that as irrelevant is in fact irrelevant.
The subtle change to entitlement to automatic citizenship was not irrelevant to FIFA as demonstrated by the mention of this clause in the GFA by FIFA legal department - automatic equal right to permanent citizenship no matter where born.
It is questionable whether FIFA would have continued to support the rights of NI born to declare for the FAI, if their permanent citizenship rights were less automatic because of place of birth.


IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA,there could be many interesting twists long into the future
"IF" and "could" being the operative words in that piece.
There is no such Irish eligibility solution. The FIFA statutes on eligibility were framed before there was "Irish problem" and reworded afterwards to support previous stated interpretations. The text of the GFA is that part of the Irish constitution re citizenship, which satisfies FIFA statutes.
It does not take a brain surgeon to work out that should the Irish constitution change re citizenship then the FIFA eligibility requirements may not be met.
But FIFA will not be changing their eligibility statutes based on the that.


My point is that association unity is a much more important factor (ahead of political unity) should an All Ireland team be up for consideration.

[Not Brazil]

Whether you regard that as irrelevant is in fact irrelevant.
The subtle change to entitlement to automatic citizenship was not irrelevant to FIFA as demonstrated by the mention of this clause in the GFA by FIFA legal department - automatic equal right to permanent citizenship no matter where born.
It is questionable whether FIFA would have continued to support the rights of NI born to declare for the FAI, if their permanent citizenship rights were less automatic because of place of birth.


On the contrary, in fact, the fact that I consider the "subtle changes" irrelevant, is, in fact, relevant in the context of what you are saying.

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was inferred from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

[Not Brazil]

My point is that association unity is a much more important factor (ahead of political unity) should an All Ireland team be up for consideration.

I was thinking of something completely different to you viz a viz Citizenship and Eligibility ie. British Citizens (which is how many born in Northern Ireland would remain in a "Unified" Ireland, for generations), and whom they could play for.

Anyhow - for another day that one.

For the umptenth time, there IS an All Ireland team - that doesn't need to be "considered" - it's here, it's now. It represents the FAI.

The other Association on the island, the IFA, has no intentions whatsoever of "unifying" with any other Association. Neither do the supporters of the IFA's International representative sides.

Those wishes should be respected, and the principle of choice (as clarified by FIFA in their deliberations over Irish Citizens in Northern Ireland) upheld.

[dantheman]

Don't post here much. I am a northern nationalist who supports the Republic, and do so for a number of reasons. All my family are from Wicklow or Kerry and I am living & working in Dublin, and intend to remain. I consider NI to be my 2nd team (I also would cheer for Scotland), and would like to have seen both teams qualify for the world cup. NI were my joint favorite team (ie I had no preference) until November 1993, but that's another (well-documented) story.

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself.
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault) that alienates people like myself from supporting NI. I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?:rolleyes: ha ha ha etc" but there is no real desire on the ground for any action in this regard.

There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty (http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=27736) up there (and as such I find his early statement here (http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p=1289897&postcount=644) that he was not posting here "Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity" to be somewhat hypocritical):

"You put your left hand in,
You put your left hand out
In, Out, In, Out,
Shake it all about,
You hand the ball to Gallas,
Who gives it a clout,
And that put the Beggars Out!

Oh Terry Terry Henry
Oh Willy Willy Gallas
Oh Dopey Swedish Linesman
Oh they put the Beggars Out, Out, Out!"

Charming. Despite this prevailing attitude there is a silent minority who avoid the politics and for them as such I give some support for the team, in the same sense that NI's leading goalscorer went to school in the same town as me. Many coaches work tirelessly for the IFA coaching kids in rough areas of Belfast and other Northern towns/cities, and great credit must be given to them for the time and effort spent.

As regards bringing the two associations together again, I do not think this should happen in the near future. It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really. With the Darren Gibson case being rightly resolved in favour of the FAI, northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team.

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

Indeed with a similar blinkered approach, you can understand the FAI poaching argument. Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that. In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

The IFA launched a football for all campaign during the last few years which has addressed some of the minor, but sadly few of the major, issues regarding the perception of the international team throughout Northern Ireland.
With this in mind, their actions regarding the Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career. They need to either:

-Drop the Darren Gibson case and opposition to northern nationalists play for the Republic and they can quitely shelve the pretense of Football For All. I think they will end up doing this.

or

-Embrace the anthems issue once and for all, and implement the recommendations of the report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/dec/11/northernireland.football) that they commissioned (Sunday football has since been permitted) and face down the predictable Unionist opposition to this.


Independently, I woud like to see an all-Ireland league. I think comments people would make about the hooligan element increasing are somewhat mistaken, most trouble to me seems to happpen in Linfield/Glentoran or Rovers/Bohs matches (i.e city derbies) and as such there would be little difference in this context. Whether it would improve the quality of the LOI immediately I doubt at the moment, but it would certainly improve interest over a number of years.

[geysir]

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was inferred from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

You do not understand the meaning of infer
Pre GFA
one could not infer that a person, proven born in NI, was an Irish citizen. Whereas one could infer that a person proven born in the Republic was an Irish citizen.
The removal of that subtle difference between the rights of those born in the Republic and NI, took on value once the IFA challenged the right of NI born to declare for the FAI.

Just like we can infer that anybody born in NI is eligible to play for NI without any documentation of UK citizenship because the inference is based on the automatic rights contained within the UK Nationality act. Proof of birth is enough to support that inference.

[Not Brazil]

You do not understand the meaning of infer
Pre GFA
one could not infer that a person, proven born in NI, was an Irish citizen. Whereas one could infer that a person proven born in the Republic was an Irish citizen.
The removal of that subtle difference between the rights of those born in the Republic and NI, took on value once the IFA challenged the right of NI born to declare for the FAI.

Just like we can infer that anybody born in NI is eligible to play for NI without any documentation of UK citizenship because the inference is based on the automatic rights contained within the UK Nationality act. Proof of birth is enough to support that inference.

We'll try again:

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was applied from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

[The Fly]

Maybe not. But remember this is the internet, not a face-to-face conversation. You- and I, and everyone else- need to explain what we mean...


The answer is definately not. I have already explained numerous times the meaning in my posts, mostly I might add, for your benefit alone. Other posters seem to be able to grasp them quite easily



I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.


Viable in a Northern Ireland context - I don't think so!
As your posts have already displayed how obtuse you are, your reactions to how people vote in NI doesn't surprise me.




True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.


Recently?.......hmmm.......you joined OWC on the 2nd of April, 2005. In this time you have posted 298 times. You joined foot.ie in April 2006, in this time you have posted 589 times - almost twice as much in considerably less time! OWC contains many more threads on the NI v ROI theme than foot.ie does, yet you are not compelled to post with the anyhere near the regularity with which you do here. This tells it's own story!

There isn't a regular thread saying 'lets abolish the NI side' on foot.ie.
On occasion, a thread appears which puts forward the idea of having one amalgated all-island side. Technically speaking this would also abolish the ROI side, or has that, along with clarity of thought and perception, escaped you as well.




Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?


It's hard to tell with you GR.





Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.


I did not mention d'Hondt to tell you how it works, I mentioned it to reiterate that the NI political system works along 'tribal' lines.
You're a bit dense in fairness.




Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?


The Alliance Party, as you know, has existed in NI for quite some time and has remained a minnow/fringe party ever since. Why?...because for the vast majority of the NI electorate it doesn't represent a 'viable' alternative. It's intentions may be laudable, but it doesn't reflect NI society.

The issue that sparked off this was not the IFA, but a lack of Northern Irish statehood/national identity.
You stated that:
"It follows from the tangible evidence that hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who don't 'identify' with it (probably the majority of them) demonstrate that lack of identity by by voting in every election for parties whose main political program is that, er Northern Ireland shouldn't exist."

Please clarify how you would expect the nationalist population of NI, and indeed the entire electorate of NI, to demonstrate their 'Northern Irish' identity.

Also, please explain how the SDLP's main political program is that NI should not exist. Were all those years under John Hume merely a front, masking his true intentions? :rolleyes:



If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?


I don't think that it is literally possible to be patronised by you GR.

[Riddickcule]

Wow, this thread really is getting out of hand.

[Not Brazil]

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949


Good shout that dantheman.

We have a Northern Ireland Supporters Club in Donegal.

Is someone born in Donegal entitled to British Citizenship as an automatic right?

Are they eligible to play for Northern Ireland - as I'm sure the sons of our SC members there would aspire to?

If not, does that make him/her "different" to a guy born in Derry?

If so, what's your point?:confused:

PS: Thon Irish Citizenship Act (1956) geysir posted earlier is very sexist indeed - remarkable, given the legal brains that must have gone into it's construction. Probably an illegal document, if it existed today.;)

[geysir]

We'll try again:
Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was applied from birth?

After you questioned the extra declaration needed for NI born needed pre GFA to obtain Irish citizenship, I took the time to provide exact relevant links and not a word of thanks was received for my efforts,
instead you resorted to a statement of its irrelevance anyway
So do your own research.
GFA 1998, check out what the FIFA statutes were at that time.

Under the 2004 statutes, citizenship was enough,
That citizenship eligibility issue was challenged by the IFA,
FIFA legal dept. copped onto the automatic rights to citizenship contained with the GFA, referred a number of times to automatic right to citizenship.
Conditional right to citizenship has a lesser value and could easily have fallen into the other FIFA statutes of eligibility where Association territory is referred to. Read up on it yourself

.

[Not Brazil]

After you questioned the extra declaration needed for NI born needed pre GFA to obtain Irish citizenship,


Yes - I'm curious to know what (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" entailed.

I do thank you for posting the link to the Act - it was informative, to a point.

In context of current discussions, I contend that it is largely irrelevant.

Edit:

I have discovered that (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" was never defined by the Govt of the Irish Republic, pertaining to Part 7 (1) of the 1956 Act - in other words, those from Northern Ireland, post 1956 Citizenship and Nationality Act, didn't have take any "oath of allegiance" in order to be an Irish Citizen.

[Not Brazil]

Under the 2004 statutes, citizenship was enough,
That citizenship eligibility issue was challenged by the IFA,
FIFA legal dept. copped onto the automatic rights to citizenship contained with the GFA, referred a number of times to automatic right to citizenship.
Conditional right to citizenship has a lesser value and could easily have fallen into the other FIFA statutes of eligibility where Association territory is referred to. Read up on it yourself


That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.

[The Fly]

That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.

Nothing, as you know my good man.

Geysir, the only thing that precluded a player born in Northern Ireland from declaring for the Republic of Ireland pre GFA, was the 'Gentleman's Agreement' that existed between the two associations.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't post here much. I am a northern nationalist who supports the Republic, and do so for a number of reasons. All my family are from Wicklow or Kerry and I am living & working in Dublin, and intend to remain. I consider NI to be my 2nd team (I also would cheer for Scotland), and would like to have seen both teams qualify for the world cup. NI were my joint favorite team (ie I had no preference) until November 1993, but that's another (well-documented) story.

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself.
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault) that alienates people like myself from supporting NI. I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?:rolleyes: ha ha ha etc" but there is no real desire on the ground for any action in this regard.

There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty (http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=27736) up there (and as such I find his early statement here (http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p=1289897&postcount=644) that he was not posting here "Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity" to be somewhat hypocritical):

"You put your left hand in,
You put your left hand out
In, Out, In, Out,
Shake it all about,
You hand the ball to Gallas,
Who gives it a clout,
And that put the Beggars Out!

Oh Terry Terry Henry
Oh Willy Willy Gallas
Oh Dopey Swedish Linesman
Oh they put the Beggars Out, Out, Out!"

Charming. Despite this prevailing attitude there is a silent minority who avoid the politics and for them as such I give some support for the team, in the same sense that NI's leading goalscorer went to school in the same town as me. Many coaches work tirelessly for the IFA coaching kids in rough areas of Belfast and other Northern towns/cities, and great credit must be given to them for the time and effort spent.

As regards bringing the two associations together again, I do not think this should happen in the near future. It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really. With the Darren Gibson case being rightly resolved in favour of the FAI, northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team.

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

Indeed with a similar blinkered approach, you can understand the FAI poaching argument. Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that. In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

The IFA launched a football for all campaign during the last few years which has addressed some of the minor, but sadly few of the major, issues regarding the perception of the international team throughout Northern Ireland.
With this in mind, their actions regarding the Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career. They need to either:

-Drop the Darren Gibson case and opposition to northern nationalists play for the Republic and they can quitely shelve the pretence of Football For All. I think they will end up doing this.

or

-Embrace the anthems issue once and for all, and implement the recommendations of the report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/dec/11/northernireland.football) that they commissioned (Sunday football has since been permitted) and face down the predictable Unionist opposition to this.


The best post to date on the topic.

The Hypocrisy is depressing but predictable. If only if it because it makes a mockery of the IFA's laudable aims to embrace their wider populace.

Unsurprisingly I guess (& certainly not on here) the silent minority of fans of the North of which you speak and especially those involved directly in coaching, who have neither the time or resources to show such overt levels of prejudice, must feel so frustrated about such raw hatred.
The fellow who designed the 'alternative' Ulster flag on that other forum, who I know of via a mutual acquaintance, was ridiculed for advocating change, but that's what he & that minority are up against.

One small crumb of comfort though, from the marginally younger generation from someone who should support the North (he played for them in schoolboy trials), was a sincere message of consolation re. recent events....
If the same ever happened to 'his' lot, it's one person to whom it'd be reciprocated.

[Not Brazil]

The Hypocrisy is depressing but predictable.

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

[janeymac]

=Gather round;1290494

Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?

Yes - but you get the gist that there is a critical mass and after that is reached it doesn't make too much difference.


Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.

No, the IFA are between a rock and a hard place. Within FIFA/EUFA, the IFA are stuck hanging onto the coat tails of England (within the Home Nations). In the meantime every other country will be doing their best to put one over on England/Home Nations. You are probably also resented by most other nations because that effectively one country, the UK has four teams & somewhere like the Peoples' Republic of China with a population of 1.2 bn (with 48 different nationalities within its borders) with potential for real potential, has one Association, not to mention a country like Monaco cannot get FIFA/EUFA recognition.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

Except that the likes of Michael Walker have never made any comments about choice. Purely about improving the pool of potential players and thus the strength of any notional team, as has happened in numerous other sports. Which are happy enough to call themselves :rolleyes: Ireland!!!

And we know you don't want it, but we can at least query other discrepancies raised by 'dtm' amongst others, about certain other 'ethics' highlighted.
Which aren't necessarily to deny 'choice', though you wouldn't think it from the level of paranoia on here or elsewhere, everytime someone suggests a UI team.

[janeymac]

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

The whole Gibson episode has been very educational really - when you actually see how the NI fans resist even minor change (ie., flags & anthem) the best solution has been reached.

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.

[Not Brazil]

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.

No need to feel sorry for Mr Evans - he's as proud as punch to play for Northern Ireland, as will his kid brother be in the near future.

[Not Brazil]

Except that the likes of Michael Walker have never made any comments about choice. Purely about improving the pool of potential players and thus the strength of any notional team, as has happened in numerous other sports. Which are happy enough to call themselves :rolleyes: Ireland!!!

And we know you don't want it, but we can at least query other discrepancies raised by 'dtm' amongst others, about certain other 'ethics' highlighted.
Which aren't necessarily to deny 'choice', though you wouldn't think it from the level of paranoia on here or elsewhere, everytime someone suggests a UI team.

This "improvement" (currently that would be Evans and who else?) in the pool of players would ultimately result in many, many, players from Northern Ireland denied the opportunity to play International football.

As Northern Ireland fans, we accept we are underdogs - with a bite.

Players who wouldn't get near a, singular, Irish team, playing International football, and boxing above their weight. That's a joy.

Being patriotic is not "paranoia".

I have no real affinity with players from the Republic Of Ireland - they don't stir my International football passions.

Discussions like these are intersting on many levels - on a personal level, they serve to confirm why I could only ever support one team in International football - Northern Ireland.

[Gather round]

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself

Aye, I think anyone trying to persuade NI fans that the NI team should be abolished is wasting their time. I doubt the second group you mention is much larger (ie much more than 50% of the football-supporting population in NI), but if you've got some actual evidence to back your claim, let's see it?


Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault)

Some will, some won't. I'm reasonably content with the existing flag, although I'd prefer no crown on it as I'm not a royalist. I'd prefer a distinct anthem not shared with England, Britain as a whole or Liechtenstein.


I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?"

Again some think that, many don't. There are plenty of alternatives- nonn-partisan folk instrumental, pop tune, new composition by Coulter or whoever. It may change in future.


There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there

Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI. Sometimes inevitably this will be demonstrated at football matches or on the web. But a ****-take version of the Hokey cokey's hardly blatant hatred, any more than other fans enjoying others' defeats. Bit exaggerated, don't ye think?


It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really

Good man. As you've seen, the genuinely Irish NI fans ain't interested. So it won't happen.


northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team

Take that chip off your shoulder, Dan. Northern Ireland is an equally proper international team, regularly beats stronger countries and too occasionally challenges to qualify. But as a generally third-ranked/ mediocre achieving squad, it's actually quite similar to the South.


The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers

One doesn't need to view with blinkers, or go off on a tangent about an Act of Parliament from 60 years ago. Many posters on this thread are saying the NI team should be abolished, even if they use the euphemism 'merged'. NI fans- 100% of them, self-evidently by definition- don't want this to happen. It's quite simple.


Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that

I'd welcome anyone in NI or out who wants to support the team. Similarly those who, even without supporting it and/ or preferring another, will at least tolerate it as they would any other. It's only the RoI fans who constantly have a go at NI that bother me, and who I feel the need the answer on threads like this one.


In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

I'm glad the hostility is receding, this is a positive step. As a further anecdotal example, I go to NI matches regularly with two Roman Catholics. I know others. Not sure about the proportion of the support from nationalist backgrounds, but as above if they prefer to support other teams that's fine.


Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career

Come on, it doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort- everyone knows the NI side has- as well as an admittedly minority nationalist support- plenty of players, coaches etc. from nationalist backgrounds.

I felt we- NI, IFA, fans- handled the Gibson case badly. He wanted to play for the South's youth teams, made the choice early, has progressed and good luck to the guy. I'd be more iriated if someone like Shane Duffy, who's already played regularly for our u-19 and u-21, then went off to play for the South. To prevent that, I want the IFA to seek a deal with the FAI that any adult player- over 18- who turns out for one of those teams, qualifier or friendly, is thus thereafter.


I have already explained numerous times the meaning in my posts, mostly I might add, for your benefit alone. Other posters seem to be able to grasp them quite easily

Sorry Fly, you haven't. You've repeated how dense I am, without much reference to anything I've said here let alone any detailed explanation. You raised, for example, the d'Hondt system and Edmund Burke's theories on the slowness of political change. I don't actually disagree with much of your analysis of them; they're just irrelevant to an argument about why the NI team should be abolished. It just looks like shoehorning in a slew of random facts, just for the sake of it.

I'm actually quite flattered at your obsessive interest in where I live and how often I post. As I'm sure most others on the thread realise, they're largely irrelevant. If you diasagree with what I say, just reply to it. To correct a few points- I've been reading and contributing to OWC since it started (as a mailing list) in 1999 I think. Similarly, on foot.ie since September 2003. I've used various names- including my real name originally- changing for various reasons including OWC regularly needing re-registration as it moved to larger servers, and a ban from foot.ie when a row about Luis Aragones and racism at Spanish international games got out of hand. OWC doesn't tend to feature threads about the NI side being abolished; they get deleted (I zapped one or two when I was a moderator myself some time back). Unfortunately, this thread on foot.ie is just the latest in a depressingly predictable series. They all say basically the same thing: 'let's take over the Nordies even though their team's rubbish and the fans a bunch of orange bigots'. I see the mods have renamed this one to reflect its predictability.


Within FIFA/EUFA, the IFA are stuck hanging onto the coat tails of England (within the Home Nations). In the meantime every other country will be doing their best to put one over on England/Home Nations. You are probably also resented by most other nations because that effectively one country, the UK has four teams & somewhere like the Peoples' Republic of China with a population of 1.2 bn (with 48 different nationalities within its borders) with potential for real potential, has one Association, not to mention a country like Monaco cannot get FIFA/EUFA recognition

Sorry Janey, this makes no sense. Other international teams playing NI will do their best to put one over NI. Unless England are in the same group the other teams are unlikely to give them a second thought. I know of no evidence whatever that other countries are that bothered about Britain having four teams, just as there's no real fuss about Denmark having to or somwhere like Andorra (which is basically a duty-free and ski resprt jointly run by France and Spain) appearing in every FIFA/ UEFA competition. Nobody in Spain or China is particularly upset about there being a NI or Wales team- they're much more likely to use it as a justification for getting they're team (if, say, they're a Basque or Galician or one of those 48 nationalities you mentioned). Or they're insistent that autonomous regions aren't allowed to set up their own teams. Nobody- apart from a few stirrers in Ireland- gives a flying fcuk about abolishing any exisiting teams against their fans' wishes. Monaco's club side seems to do well enough in UEFA competitions. Are they really that bothered about not playing the World Cup? I think not.


I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United

Football's a precarious career, but a player good enough to feature regularly in the Champions' League later stages at 21 has a better chance than most. Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.

[geysir]

Yes - I'm curious to know what (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" entailed.

I do thank you for posting the link to the Act - it was informative, to a point.

In context of current discussions, I contend that it is largely irrelevant.

Edit:

I have discovered that (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" was never defined by the Govt of the Irish Republic, pertaining to Part 7 (1) of the 1956 Act - in other words, those from Northern Ireland, post 1956 Citizenship and Nationality Act, didn't have take any "oath of allegiance" in order to be an Irish Citizen.

You have discovered? Well that is absolute isn't it :rolleyes:

Do some proper research before coming out with your discovery statement, you just might find that part of the passport application for NI born was a declaration of citizenship.