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osarusan
07/12/2009, 10:39 AM
There are no positives in it for NI fans who are not in favour of a united Ireland team, but for those NI fans (including prospective NI fans) who are in favour, there are positives.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?

Predator
07/12/2009, 10:42 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?
This is going on the assumption that there are a small number (Not Brazil says under 5%) of NI fans who would be perhaps in favour of an all-Ireland team.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 10:47 AM
This is going on the assumption that there are a small number (Not Brazil says under 5%) of NI fans who would be perhaps in favour of an all-Ireland team.

That would be to say that greater than 95% of Northern Ireland fans OPPOSE any merger with anyone.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 10:53 AM
I'm in favor of the Setanta cup or similar (it would be a shame if it petered out before Crusaders' recent mini-revival). If it attracted sustained interest (large crowds, new sponsors and the rest) over say five years, then we could consider expanding it into a league structure. Until then, as you say, let's concentrate on improving the existing leagues.

I've been a supporter of the Setanta Cup - unfortunately, it has not harnassed anything like the degree of interest some would have thought it might.

Whether that's the set up of the competition, I don't really know.

However, it does nothing to suggest that a LOI + two or three IL Clubs will be the saiour of Club football on this island.

Best to concentrate on improving the existing leagues as you, quite rightly, say.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 10:58 AM
That would be to say that greater than 95% of Northern Ireland fans OPPOSE any merger with anyone.

Except no-one has ever put your equivocal statement to the test....;)
And there's no reason why we can't try to re-educate them.
As you keep telling us they're :rolleyes: 'Irish'. Except the majority would say they're not.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 10:59 AM
As I've said, I acknowledge that there is an effective united Ireland team, but it's not the same as having one international football entity, as you obviously know.


This is at the crux of the matter.

Why do you wish to trample all over the desire of the overwhelming majority of Northern Ireland fans' to see our International side retain it's autonmomy, especially against a background of the FAI having the pick of the 32 Counties players?

Can you see that this can be perceived as an aggressive attitude, which completely disrespects the right of choice?

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:00 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?

A team that represents them and qualifies for Finals periodically. As opposed to once a generation or less. And there should be a mutual benefit hopefully.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:06 AM
Except no-one has ever put your equivocal statement to the test....;)
And there's no reason why we can't try to re-educate them.
As you keep telling us they're :rolleyes: 'Irish'. Except the majority would say they're not.

You put it to the test all to the test all you like - why don't you organise a survey of Northern Ireland block bookers?

Rather than use wee winky smilies (as if I haven't got the mood of Northern Ireland fans bang on the money on the issue) would that not be more practical, and, perhaps, prove me wrong?

You can try and "re-educate" all you like - I would respectfully suggest that attitudes like that expressed in the very first post on this thread, and your subsequent labelling of Unionists (and by your inference, Northern Ireland fans) isn't going to do much "re-educating".

To correct you, I have stated that I'm Irish (and British) - how others amongst the Northern Ireland fan base identify themselves is a matter for their choice.

I refuse to denounce my Irishness because of the myopic view of what that means, espoused by some - I am, afterall, a supporter of the IRISH Football Association's International representative teams.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:08 AM
A team that represents them and qualifies for Finals periodically. As opposed to once a generation or less. And there should be a mutual benefit hopefully.

I would much rather Northern Ireland never qualified again, but still competed as Northern Ireland, than disappear.

I am wholly represented by a team called Northern Ireland - no tweaking of that neccessary, thanks all the same.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:11 AM
Looks like you'll get your wish then. ;)

Though I'm glad you speak for the whole population of N.E. Ulster. They would be very :rolleyes: proud.

osarusan
07/12/2009, 11:14 AM
Though I'm glad you speak for the whole population of N.E. Ulster. They would be very :rolleyes: proud.
With all respect, he's given what he approximates as the percentages of people who would be opposed to or in favour of a merger. You've not given any figures at all.

And I'd say the onus is on you to try and show that there are a significant number of fans who are in favour of the merger, rather than on him showing the number in favour of the status quo.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:17 AM
Though I'm glad you speak for the whole population of N.E. Ulster. They would be very :rolleyes: proud.

I certainly don't speak for the whole population of Northern Ireland.

I do speak, with confidence, on the feelings of the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans on the matter.

You are right - we are very proud of our team (as I'm sure you are of yours).

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:22 AM
That's as maybe. But when the end comes, it'll be down to the machinations of their newly 'beloved' FIFA, not any polls done by me or him. Personally I'd love to see a poll in the Six counties or across the whole island, but doubtless the content would be seen as too frivolous by many. Perhaps rightly so.

Anyway, none of the other advocates of a UI team have proposed a poll. They've relied on the logic of the many other examples, a commodity not very prevalent in certain quarters. As opposed to paranoia.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:25 AM
Personally I'd love to see a poll in the Six counties or across the whole island, but doubtless the content would be seen as too frivolous by many. Perhaps rightly so.

Anyway, none of the other advocates of a UI team have proposed a poll. They've relied on the logic of the many other examples, a commodity not very prevalent in certain quarters. As opposed to paranoia.

You can have all the Polls you like - you don't seem to be able to grasp that any amount of Polls wont put a Company (the IFA) out of business.

To wish to hold onto something one cherishes, and see it progress, is not paranoia.

Gather round
07/12/2009, 11:26 AM
I do respect the choice of those people, but that does not preclude me from discussing a hypothetical situation, however ridiculous it might seem to some

Come on, you- and those who agree with you on this theme/ thread- aren't really putting anything new into the discussion. You're just repeating the same thing over and over again, which is why NB and I alone have replied to it by reflex 150 times on the thread. As Gerry Adams might say, there's an impasse in dialog ;)

Anyway, off the top of my head here's a ridiculous suggestion prompted by Ardee Bhoy and others on another thread. Your fans are obviously still sore about losing an unlucky goal to France, to the extent that some are even wondering aloud about boycotting future FIFA/ UEFA competitions. As an alternative- and bearing in mind you couldn't score a single goal in 180 minutes against the Black Mountain- why not set up a alternative competition where you can rack up wins against Cave Hill, Slieve Donard and the Glenshane Pass? Trebles all round!


As I've said, I acknowledge that there is an effective united Ireland team, but it's not the same as having one international football entity, as you obviously know

You've got what you want in practice; you don't need to argue for some extra principle which just winds up your neighbors. Stop stirring.


Seriously though, I still think it's an issue which should see the consultation of the population of Northern Ireland (as well as the Republic) as they are all prospective fans

I was being semi-serious. We already know what Northern Ireland fans think of the Northern Ireland football team think; 100% support it, self-evidently by definition. If you want to test what all others (RoI fans, people not bothered by football, that sort of thing) think, you need to stand for election, or get an existing party to do it for you. You can't just hide behind 'ah, but if we just assume what the silent majority thinks'.


but for those NI fans (including prospective NI fans) who are in favour, there are positives

There are no positives for any NI fan in there not being a NI fan after you've abolished it. I mean, d'uh.


Not Brazil says he would find it difficult to cheer on a united Ireland team as passionately, since he feels little to no affinity to the Republic of Ireland. You don't have that problem though

I support the Ireland cricket team because there isn't and hasn't been a NI side. Although I've lived in the Republic of Ireland (as well as Germany and England by choice as an adult), I've no affinity to any of their international football teams. Can't think where you got that idea from.


it could be avoided altogether if it wasn't given any credence whatsoever, which is what you and NB have been doing

It has about as much credence as the original Creedence (Clearwater Revival, I'm a long-time fan) getting together again. Alas they haven't spoken civilly since about 1983 ;)


Then again, maybe it will happen eventually and the lack of input from NI fans would encourage the 'takeover' attitude

I suppose if you can blithely ignore 150 posts on this thread alone telling you we're not interested, your perceived "lack of input" is hardly a surprise.


I still don't see why English and Scottish born players are relevent to the discussion. Any possible merger of the FAI and IFA would not have any bearing on eligibility rules regarding these players whatsoever

Let me put it slightly differently. Any possible availability of players from outside the Republic of Ireland doesn't necessarily have a bearing on a takeover of the IFA. Because, obviously, you already have plenty of such players, like.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:27 AM
I certainly don't speak for the whole population of Northern Ireland.

You are right - we are very proud of our team (as I'm sure you are of yours).

I was being sarcastic. In the good/bad years, given the fickleness of modern football fans (Of all shades!) there must be more fans of Ireland in the North's population than of the North, given there's a 3-way or more split....

Though I'd accept the North's support would have grown given their improvement in recent years but any relative success, like with Ireland, is generally cyclical.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:31 AM
To wish to hold onto something one cherishes, and see it progress, is not paranoia.

It'll be FIFA who'll vote you out of existence. And it certainly sounds like paranoia, if not ostrich-like! ;)

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:37 AM
I was being sarcastic. In the good/bad years, given the fickleness of modern football fans (Of all shades!) there must be more fans of Ireland in the North's population than of the North, given there's a 3-way or more split....

Though I'd accept the North's support would have grown given their improvement in recent years but any relative success, like with Ireland, is generally cyclical.

People who don't support Northern Ireland are not really my concern - yes, there are a sizeable number of people from Northern Ireland who support the Republic Of Ireland...that's entirely up to them. I doubt they are any more or less passionate about suppporting their team than Northern Ireland fans are ours.

All teams have fluctuations in support - at least in terms of those wanting to go to matches. That's the same the world over.

Gather round
07/12/2009, 11:39 AM
In the good/bad years, given the fickleness of modern football fans (Of all shades!) there must be more fans of Ireland in the North's population than of the North, given there's a 3-way or more split....

Of course I realise many football fans in NI support the Republic, and a smaller number England. I'd be very surprised if yours was the largest group. Put simply, there are more unionists than nationalists; you can't assume that none of the nationalists will support NI, England, or a combination of two or more; you aren't (as Osarusan says above) actually offering any evidence at all, are you?


It'll be FIFA who'll vote you out of existence. And it certainly sounds like paranoia, if not ostrich-like

In the unlikely event of FIFA voting out any Irish team, I'd be more worried if I supported the one which has recently been so aggressively critical of FIFA (not to mention exposing itself to Worldwide ridicule in the process).

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:40 AM
It'll be FIFA who'll vote you out of existence. And it certainly sounds like paranoia, if not ostrich-like! ;)

I don't see how they will.:confused:

Perhaps just wishful (and hostile) thinking on your part?

There is nothing either paranoid or "ostrich-like" about not wanting to see our team disappear.

You do understand the concept of being a "supporter", do you?:confused:

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 11:53 AM
In the unlikely event of FIFA voting out any Irish team, I'd be more worried if I supported the one which has recently been so aggressively critical of FIFA (not to mention exposing itself to Worldwide ridicule in the process).

To NB;Of course I understand the concept of support, but that's not what the likes of Michael Walker is suggesting. Maybe you need to re-read....

As for FIFA, for all their faults, corruption and crookedness(And that's an understatement!);they're more likely to vote out of existence teams not representing legitimate sovereign states, instead of representing archaic colonial entities.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 11:57 AM
To NB;Of course I understand the concept of support, but that's not what the likes of Michael Walker is suggesting. Maybe you need to re-read....

As for FIFA, for all their faults, corruption and crookedness(And that's an understatement!);they're more likely to vote out of existence teams not representing legitimate sovereign states, instead of representing archaic colonial entities.

I've read Walker's piece - same old...

I do not believe for one minute that FIFA will vote the four "home" Associations out of existance - if it were to come to pass, I would not be a passionate supporter of an All UK team - I doubt many (outside of possibly England fans) would.

Don't raise your hopes on that one!

Gather round
07/12/2009, 11:58 AM
As for FIFA...they're more likely to vote out of existence teams not representing legitimate sovereign states, instead of representing archaic colonial entities

And the evidence that they're planning this, or that they've done it- even once- in the past?

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 12:07 PM
It's part of Jack Warner's, er, agenda. And has some sympathy in other of the more obscure parts of FIFA's constituency.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 12:12 PM
It's part of Jack Warner's, er, agenda. And has some sympathy in other of the more obscure parts of FIFA's constituency.

Good luck to Jack with that.:D

Fine, upstanding, FIFA representative that he is.:D

AB pinning his hopes on the disappearance of the Northern Ireland team, to be gobbled up in an All UK team, on the evidence of a discredited Jack Warner's wishes....absolutely brilliant.:D

Gather round
07/12/2009, 12:13 PM
It isn't. If Jack Warner wants anything from the Irish FA at all, it's our vote if he runs for FIFA el Presidente. All he has to do is offer Kennedy and his family (or John Delaney and his) a nice free holiday in some Caribbean resort or other. There are no plans and no constituency for forcing any UEFA member countries out of the organisation, only some pressure to stop others getting in. For example, big centralised countries like Spain or Russia aren't too keen on Euskal or Chechnya, say, breaking away to organise their own teams.

Where are these obscure parts of FIFA's constituency, other than in your imagination?

PS to NB- I wasn't joking about Jack being a posible future presidente. He may have been discredited by the English media (until he changed his mind and said he'd vote for England 2018 after all), and more importantly the courts in his own country, but that's no bar to senior office in FIFA.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 12:19 PM
It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power.
But you people love to deny the facts as part of the paranoid agenda.

Though I would agree Warner/FIFA are discredited, though 'law of averages' I suppose that they'll eventually do something 'right'.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 12:19 PM
PS to NB- I wasn't joking about Jack being a posible future presidente. He may have been discredited by the English media (until he changed his mind and said he'd vote for England 2018 after all), and more importantly the courts in his own country, but that's no bar to senior office in FIFA.

Should Jack succeed in reaching the top, he'll find he's not in charge of a Dictatorship.;)

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 12:24 PM
It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power.
But you people love to deny the facts as part of the paranoid agenda.


There is a certain validity in the arguement that the four Home Associations carry to much power - that is a whole different arguement as to whether they should be denied the right to exist autonomously.

Would an All UK team compete more effectively on the world stage? Using your logic, probably.

Why do you think the overwhelming majority of supporters of the four Home Association's International representative teams are steadfastly oppossed to such a move?

What is this "paranoid agenda" of which you speak?:confused:

Gather round
07/12/2009, 12:24 PM
It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power. But you people love to deny the facts as part of the paranoid agenda

As I mentioned above, NI like the other three has a seat on the International Board. It's just a committee. If anyone is that bothered- you need to show some independent evidence- all they need do is argue for the committee to be entirely elected without ex-officio members. It's just not an issue.

geysir
07/12/2009, 12:30 PM
It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power.
What kind of power are you referring to?

They occupy 1/2 the seats on the committee to rule on the laws of the game as it is played on the pitch. Is that a bone of contention for other members of FIFA?

Ronan85
07/12/2009, 12:43 PM
I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team. If the majority of Northern Ireland fans (note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens) would prefer to retain their own team rather than opt for an All-Ireland team, that is their right to do so.

Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team. Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe. When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties. Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 12:58 PM
I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team. If the majority of Northern Ireland fans (note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens) would prefer to retain their own team rather than opt for an All-Ireland team, that is their right to do so.

Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team. Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe. When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties. Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population.

Spot on with the first bit.

You have an All Ireland team currently - you do play your games in Dublin, with Amhran na bhFiann. There are no objections whatsoever to that.

When the "inevitable" happens in 20-25 years (as you forecast), will you be upholding the right of any player born in Northern Ireland to elect to play for any one of the the other "British" Associations, on account of them having British Citizenship?

third policeman
07/12/2009, 1:02 PM
GR (Sorry to confuse you with your comrade in arms EG) what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football. I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent (unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA) dont actually support it. You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs, and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team. Well I might possibly be persuaded to accept this uniquely Irish accomodation, but things of course are not quite so hunky dory. The two Irish teams are not divided along lines of national jurisdiction, but along predominantly religious lines.(Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc. I am referring to the overwhelming split in the support base for both teams inside NI) The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity. Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance.

I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come. Maybe the political implications of the proposition are just too sensitive and complicated to resolve, But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team. This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone.

bholg
07/12/2009, 1:03 PM
Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe.

Jeees... dont know about that one. Very optimistic time scale I feel.

I dont think it will simply be a question of straight forward religious/ethnic demographics...

Probably a debate for a different forum

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:05 PM
(unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA)

That's exactly who it represents.

Gather round
07/12/2009, 1:06 PM
I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team

Thanks. Not much to ask.


note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens

Just like those in every other country- not everyone supports the country they live in, not everyone is interested in football.


Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team

You've got it already, read the thread.


Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away

You're either looking at the wrong statistics, or misinterpreting them. In the last NI Assembly election in 2007 (past electoral behavior being the best, if hardly a 100% reliable indicator of future voting intention), nationalist parties got 42% of the vote. That's a long way behind the 58% who vote non-nationalist. You'd have to rely on some combination of

a) up to 8% of the voters changing to become nationalists later in life

b) lots of potential nationalist voters suddenly deciding to vote after previously staying at home (such people do exist, but on the unionist side as well, which would counter the effect)

c) nationalist voters having more children (by and large they haven't for some time now), and then those children becoming nationalist voters in 25 years time. Being registered as Catholics at birth/ communion (the oft-quoted I think you're referring) isn't the same thing.


It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe

It isn't. Commentators in the RoI and more so among nationalists in NI have been claiming this inevitability for decades- but you're no closer to it now than in 1925, 1939 or 1972, just to pick three examples. There's no guarantee that the man on Bray Esplanade will vote for it (as opposed to daydreaming when there's no real chance of it happening).


When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties

You already do that for your team, even though many of your team come from outside the 32 counties. You don't need to feel guilty either now or notionally in the future.


Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population

True, you can overdo the guilt trip. Incidentally there are far fewer UJs at NI games nowadays, and many like me would prefer a distinct anthem that we don't share with England, Britain as a whole and Liechtenstein. And which would, I hope, be suffiiciently stirring (or even bland) to appeal to all existing and potential fans.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:10 PM
The two Irish teams are not divided along lines of national jurisdiction, but along predominantly religious lines.(Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc. I am referring to the overwhelming split in the support base for both teams inside NI)

Not sure about the Republic's fanbase, but the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans I know aren't regular worshipers - in fact, a lot of them are atheists.

If I want to worship my maker, I go to Church - not a football match.

It is fair to say that the majority of Northern Ireland fans are "Unionist" in outlook - no surprise there really, given that Nationalists would prefer there to be no such thing as Northern Ireland.

I would guess the whole of the Republic Of Ireland fanbase is nationalistic in outlook - again, no big surprise.

bwagner
07/12/2009, 1:17 PM
What players are catholic at the moment in the Northern team ? Mc Ginn, Mc Court, Baird , Clingan ...any others guys?? Just outa interest
I must admit I love seeing them do well and i even have a 1982 jersey i bought in Lisburn

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:19 PM
Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance.


Seems thje FAI are pretty happy with it too - compounding it by targeting and selecting players from one side of the community in Northern Ireland to bolster their squads.

However the right of choice was established in the eligibility debate - do the same rules apply for us, or is the hypocricy just hanging out of you?

Why is it unreasonable, or unnatural, for someone proudly born in Northern Ireland to want to play for Northern Ireland or support Northern Ireland?:confused:

For those who oppose the place called Northern Ireland, they can elect to play for the FAI team, and support it's representative sides.

Beyond that, what we are witnessing in this discussion is outright hostility to the right of the IFA to remain autonomous, in line with the wishes of the vast majority of it's International representative teams' supporters.

That is wholly unacceptable, and unreasonable.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:21 PM
What players are catholic at the moment in the Northern team ? Mc Ginn, Mc Court, Baird , Clingan ...any others guys?? Just outa interest
I must admit I love seeing them do well and i even have a 1982 jersey i bought in Lisburn

Who cares where they say their prayers, or if they even bother?:confused:

osarusan
07/12/2009, 1:21 PM
I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent dont actually support it.
By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.

bwagner
07/12/2009, 1:27 PM
Just a question Not Brazil
It interests me how catholic irish paople couls play under those banners and songs

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:36 PM
Just a question Not Brazil
It interests me how catholic irish paople couls play under those banners and songs

Because they are professional footballers who aren't hung up on theological interpretations perhaps?

Gather round
07/12/2009, 1:40 PM
GR (Sorry to confuse you with your comrade in arms EG)

No problem. Hopefully the big man from Fermanagh will revisit the thread soon.


what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football

Come again? I don't think, and have never suggested nor implied here or anywhere else, indifference to demographics and their relation to football support in Northern Ireland. But as Raymond Kennedy would say, we are where we are.


I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent...dont actually support it

I can. Was talking to an English friend of mine the other day, who lives in Transylvania with his Romanian wife and their kids. 90% of people in their town speak Hungarian at home, school and work, and many support Hungarian sports teams. This example is hardly unique in Europe, let alone anywhere else. There are many more Hungarian speakers in Romania than nationalist voters in Northern Ireland, btw.


unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA

I wouldn't- haven't- put it in exactly the same terms, and I'm not really interested in the corporate status of the IFA. Did NB mean the team "merely" represented the IFA, ie just a few people in Windsor rAvenue ather than thousands of fans?


You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs

Aye, pretty much. And why not? Doesn't harm the horses, similar precedents in other countries. Although even if there weren't such precedents, I'd still support NI, like.


and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team

Got it in one, good man.


Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc.

I won't- I don't. I don't care how the players and fans vote, or worship, or antything else off-field, as long as they play for and support the shirt.

The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity

Don't be so melodramatic. There's a political divide in NI mainly because of the way the border was drawn in the 1920s, wider political issues, population drift since and so on. That divide would exist if international football and both the Irish teams disappeared up Blatter's hole next Tuesday.


Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue

I have recognised it, merely disagreeing with the conclusions you've drawn from it.


rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance

Thanks (for the reasonableness bit), but I haven't undermined anything by not doing what you're accusing me of. Sectarian intolerance (which I abhor) isn't umbilically linked to football, as I say above.


I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come
Good man, we're agreed after all.


But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team

I've said nothing dishonest on this thread or the issue generally- can you back that up, if not withdraw it please?


This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone

It's a simple argument (which doesn't mean quite the same as facile, you know) and not at all disingenuous.

ArdeeBhoy
07/12/2009, 1:43 PM
By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.

Unlike :rolleyes: the current situation....

paul_oshea
07/12/2009, 1:44 PM
That's exactly who it represents.

And who do they represent?

osarusan
07/12/2009, 1:53 PM
Unlike :rolleyes: the current situation....

Yes, unlike the current situation where everybody has a national team which they can feel is representative of them.

The merger would undoubtedly leave a sizeable number of NI citizens without any team which they feel represents them. You, apparently, have no problem with that.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:54 PM
And who do they represent?

It's members.

Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 1:57 PM
Unlike :rolleyes: the current situation....

It's not as if those in Northern Ireland who don't support Northern Ireland (largely on account of their political opinions) don't have a team they identify with - it's called the Republic Of Ireland, and it is a ,de facto, All Ireland team.