Rugby Union 2009

[Stuttgart88]

I wasn't impressed by Earls under the high ball at all last night, admittedly in poor conditions. I think he's way too rough around the edges still for Test rugby but if something special is needed late on he has the pace and the sidestep that Sth Africa looked vulnerable to in the first test.

I'd like to see Shaw in for the next game and the Welsh front row changes mooted earlier. I thought Mears's throwing in was very nervy in the first test.

I honestly think ROG is the most relaible 10 on this tour. He's less fluent than Jones but he has presence and is commanding. His kicking for territory is the best we have and, inexplicable miss last night aside, will be worth a few points over Jones with the boot. As Pete says, Hook can only be a plan C. He made one superb Hollywood kick for touch last night but looked uncertain right from the start and his Rob Saunders-like kick at the end cost the Lions the win.

I think Kearney should start at 15 even if Byrne is fit. He looked like he was born for this situation when he came on last week. I don't think I've ever seen a better fielder of a high ball at this level. He returns kicks well too and is sound defensively.

I'm not sure Fitzgerald has done enough. Monye is safe under a high ball, returns it well, I haven't noticed him being weak in the tackle and he runs aggressively - it's just his finishing lets him down. It's a tough call. Could Williams' cameo at 11 last night signal a change in thinking for the coaches? Or was Fitzgerald being protected?

I don't think I know as much about the technical aspects of the game as others here but that's my slightly Irish biased view.

[Superhoops]

Here's my XV:

15 Kearney
14 Bowe 13 BOD 12 Roberts 11 Fitzgerald
10 Jones 9 Phillips;
1 Jenkins 2 Rees 3 Jones
4 Shaw 5 POC
6 Croft 7 Williams 8 Heaslip
Subs: Mears, Vickery/Hayes, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Ellis, O'Gara, Byrne

[shakermaker1982]

what time is the team announced? 12.30 or 2.30?

[endabob1]

Stuttgart, I can't convey in words how sh!t the weather was at Newlands, 70-80km winds with gusts of 100km+ & driving torrential rain, Newlands gets more rain than anywhere else in SA (foothills of the mountain you see) but it's been torrentiall for the last week so it was very soft underfoot as well as the wind & rain.
To put it in context when we stopped to get a burger on the way home, it was so windy I couldn't shut the door of Nando's without help, when I got back to the car there was a film of sand on the windscreen that had blown from the beach 300+ metres away in the space of 10 minutes!
I think I read that ROG said it was amongst the worst conditions he's ever played in, & that coming from someone who plays their club rugby in Limerick, I've seen Angelas Ashes it rains a lot :D

[pete]

what time is the team announced? 12.30 or 2.30?

12.30 i believe.

Earls was ok under the high ball as he competed for all of them & did not seem to make any obvious errors. The high balls the boks sending in were very good & they chased them them well.

I now think Hook will be on the bench as out half & centre cover as he offers a plan C option. It will also make no sense to have Hook & O'Gara on the bench together.

Edit: 5 changes announced, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Shaw, Rees, Adam Jones.

R Kearney (Leinster and Ireland);
T Bowe (Ospreys and Ireland),
B O'Driscoll (Leinster and Ireland),
J Roberts (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
L Fitzgerald (Leinster and Ireland);
S Jones (Scarlets and Wales),
M Phillips (Ospreys and Wales);

G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
M Rees (Scarlets and Wales),
A Jones (Ospreys and Wales),
S Shaw (Wasps and England),
P O'Connell (Munster and Ireland, capt),
T Croft (Leicester and England),
D Wallace (Munster and Ireland),
J Heaslip (Leinster and Ireland).

Replacements:
R Ford (Edinburgh and Scotland), A Sheridan (Sale Sharks and England), A-W Jones (Ospreys and Wales), M Williams (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
H Ellis (Leicester and England), R O'Gara (Munster and Ireland), S Williams (Ospreys and Wales).

Surprised to see Fitzgerald start & O'Gara & Shane Williams on the bench.

[joeSoap]

I see no sense in having Alun Wyn Jones on the bench. Nor Shane Williams for that matter. Williams is very badly out of form, and Earls, Monye or D'Arcy would all have been better options than him in my book.

I predict a 20 plus point defeat.:(

[Dodge]

I predict a 20 plus point defeat.:(

On the basis of the bench?

[joeSoap]

On the basis of the bench?

Partially. I think Shane Williams inclusion and that of Wyn Jones won't exactly scare the Boks. Harry Ellis hardly inspires anybody and Ross Ford is a decent Magners League hooker.

I believe the altitude will be a strong factor, and one which is worth a few scores to the Boks, particularly Steyns ability to drop goals from 60m.

Also, the Boks will strip fitter for last weeks run out. They hadn't played a meaningful game in 7 months prior to that, and they will improve and not tire in the last 20 like last week.

Add the three of them together, and thats how I get my 20 point plus SA win.

[OneRedArmy]

If the Boks do win by a blowout (and it's very possible), it won't be because of this team. It will be because they are an all around superior unit than the Lions.

The Lions task is simple. Get within 10% of even in the forwards and the backs will win the game. Unfortunately that will require all 8 to play their best games all season to even get close to parity and that's a big ask.

Jones also needs to up his game by a huge amount.

[Real ale Madrid]

Gutted that O'Callaghan is not even in the squad but I suppose 7 irishmen starting a lions test has to be a record? Hope they can do the business now.

OneRedArmy is sopt on - gain parity up front and the backs can win the game.

Lions to win it 21 - 17.

[shakermaker1982]

I think the Lions have a decent chance (again). Keep the penalty count down, get in front early and see what happens. The scrum cannot get any worse.

Shaw might even steal the odd lineout and will add considerable bulk to the scrum.

I'll go against the trend here and tip the Lions to win. I'm hoping POC makes his critics eat their words by having a stormer.

[joeSoap]

The Lions task is simple. Get within 10% of even in the forwards and the backs will win the game. Whats simple about that??:rolleyes:

[Dodge]

Whats simple about that??:rolleyes:

He didn't say it was easy...

[Mr A]

Teams named:

Lions: R Kearney (Leinster and Ireland); T Bowe (Ospreys and Ireland), B O’Driscoll (Leinster and Ireland), J Roberts (Cardiff Blues and Wales), L Fitzgerald (Leinster and Ireland); S Jones (Scarlets and Wales), M Phillips (Ospreys and Wales); G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues and Wales), M Rees (Scarlets and Wales), A Jones (Ospreys and Wales), S Shaw (Wasps and England), P O’Connell (Munster and Ireland, capt), T Croft (Leicester and England), D Wallace (Munster and Ireland), J Heaslip (Leinster and Ireland).

Replacements: R Ford (Edinburgh and Scotland), A Sheridan (Sale Sharks and England), A-W Jones (Ospreys and Wales), M Williams (Cardiff Blues and Wales), H Ellis (Leicester and England), R O’Gara (Munster and Ireland), S Williams (Ospreys and Wales).

South Africa: F Steyn (Sharks); JP Pietersen (Sharks), A Jacobs (Sharks), J de Villiers (Stormers), B Habana (Bulls); R Pienaar (Sharks), F du Preez (Bulls); T Mtawarira (Sharks), B du Plessis (Sharks), J Smit (Sharks), B Botha (Bulls), V Matfield (Bulls), S Burger (Stormers), J Smith (Cheetahs), P Spies (Bulls).

Replacements: C Ralepelle (Bulls), D Carstens (Sharks), A Bekker (Stormers), D Rossouw (Bulls), H Brussow (Cheetahs), J Fourie (Lions), M Steyn (Bulls).

[OneRedArmy]

Whats simple about that??:rolleyes:

You insinuated that the selection of the bench will play a material role in the Lions losing the game heavily.

I really don't think so. The pack is not far of the best 8 left out there, my only misgiving is Croft and Wallace are too similar. In the absence of a Ferris or a Worseley that's 5 years younger, there aren't many other options.

Whilst it's easy to see how the game can be won, as I said, it will require the unlikely event of all the pack playing a blinder.

[IsMiseSean]

Im happy with the starting 15 but I dont see how Wyn Jones got ahead of O'Callaghan on the bench. DOC done well when he came on and shaw will only have 50mins, 60 max.... So then its back to Wyn Jones and O'Connell and we all saw how that went for 60mins on saturday.
As for Shane Williams how he got in ahead of Earls is beyond me....

Does anyone else think that Gatland is making a bit of a tit of himself on this tour??
First he says after tuesdays game that he doesn't expect to be many changes...
He also says Earls impressed but yet Williams gets in ahead of him
He had to notice early on in the 1st test that Vickery was struggling but yet he didnt come off until the 45min
As Forwards coach, is it not his job to do the research on the Boks front-row... Sadly I cant put all the blame on him for that. Rowntree has to put his hand up too.

[joeSoap]

Gatland and Rowntree have a lot to answer for. The homework on 'The Beast' or whatever moniker they give him obviously wasn't done. Again, I'm not going to slate Vickery too much cos I don't believe it all to be his fault, but its down to these guys to see these problems from their lofty perches in the stands and rectify them. Gatland is a pompous, arrogant man...well he is a Kiwi, and has done himself no favours on this tour. Politics came into this team selection it saddens me to say, and I have lost a lot of respect for McGeechan for allowing it to do so. Wyn Jones in particular, and Shane Williams clearly have not had better tours than their Irish counterparts in O'Callaghan and Earls. Yet they get selected. Why? Because there's already 8Irishmen in the squad and Gatland and Gerald Davies are selectors. I know Woodward made an arse of his chance but his philosophy of having total control of selection policies is a good one. 'Accept the praise when you win, take the criticism when you lose' was his philosophy and its one I believe in. I know hindsight is a great thing, but players like Ryan Jones, Nick Easter, Tom Rees, Rory Best, Dwayne Peel and a few others would represent the jersey a lot better than some that are down there.

[shakermaker1982]

Gatland and Rowntree have a lot to answer for. The homework on 'The Beast' or whatever moniker they give him obviously wasn't done. Again, I'm not going to slate Vickery too much cos I don't believe it all to be his fault, but its down to these guys to see these problems from their lofty perches in the stands and rectify them. Gatland is a pompous, arrogant man...well he is a Kiwi, and has done himself no favours on this tour. Politics came into this team selection it saddens me to say, and I have lost a lot of respect for McGeechan for allowing it to do so. Wyn Jones in particular, and Shane Williams clearly have not had better tours than their Irish counterparts in O'Callaghan and Earls. Yet they get selected. Why? Because there's already 8Irishmen in the squad and Gatland and Gerald Davies are selectors. I know Woodward made an arse of his chance but his philosophy of having total control of selection policies is a good one. 'Accept the praise when you win, take the criticism when you lose' was his philosophy and its one I believe in. I know hindsight is a great thing, but players like Ryan Jones, Nick Easter, Tom Rees, Rory Best, Dwayne Peel and a few others would represent the jersey a lot better than some that are down there.

Ryan Jones was called into the squad but pulled out as soon as he landed! I agree with you on Peel and Rory Best. Two major omissions once O'Leary and Flannery had to pull out of the squad.

Did you see the Gatland interview straight after the match on Tuesday? I thought he was gonna go for the Sky Sports interviewer because he had the cheek to ask some questions about the first test.

[OneRedArmy]

ROG got what he deserved.

Cowardly not to jump, and he knew it.

Lions ran out of steam with 20 to go and Paulie's decision to go for the posts was a bit conservative for me.

Big question over the future of the Lions. Moral victories doesn't do it.

[IsMiseSean]

I dont really blame ROG. That penalty was harsh. He never tried to tackle the player or use a shoulder. Bull**** penalty!!!

[DmanDmythDledge]

I dont really blame ROG. That penalty was harsh. He never tried to tackle the player or use a shoulder. Bull**** penalty!!!
He turned his shoulder into it. Definitely penalty even though there wasn't much contact.

[IsMiseSean]

He turned his shoulder into it. Definitely penalty even though there wasn't much contact.

He turned away I dont think there was much intent... Maybe im wrong :confused:

[Stuttgart88]

I disagree, I thought it was the dumbest penalty I've ever seen conceded - in the context of its importance. If he jumps and misses it's not a penalty. He didn't jump because it wasn't there to be won so with his experience (and even without it) he should have had the commom sense to wait for the player to land. Stonewall penalty and totally moronic on O'Gara's part.

ROG also missed his tackle for the boks' last try. Bad day at the office though in fairness it looks like he had taken a battering.

They were up against it once the two front rowers and the two centres went off. Unlucky in that regard.

Kearney is the best fielder of a high ball I've ever seen. What a player he's going to be.

R5 Live said afterwards that gouging is a mandatory straight red so on that basis it's an easy decision for the officials. Big turning point giving Schalk Berger (spelling ?) only a yellow.

[OneRedArmy]

He turned away I dont think there was much intent... Maybe im wrong :confused:Yeah, you're wrong. He needed to jump. He took his eyes off the ball which is always a teller.

[DmanDmythDledge]

ROG also missed his tackle for the boks' last try. Bad day at the office though in fairness it looks like he had taken a battering.

R5 Live said afterwards that gouging is a mandatory straight red so on that basis it's an easy decision for the officials. Big turning point giving Schalk Berger (spelling ?) only a yellow.
I don't think there's much he could have done there in fairness as he took a cut to eye and his vision was obviously obscured.

Completely forgot about that. Ridiculous decision for reason stated above.

[OneRedArmy]

I don't think there's much he could have done there in fairness as he took a cut to eye and his vision was obviously obscured.

Completely forgot about that. Ridiculous decision for reason stated above.Agree re Burger, ref bottled it.

No excuse re O'Gara, once a non-tackler, always a non-tackler.

Fair play to Kearney and Shaw, legends the pair.

[IsMiseSean]

Agree re Burger, ref bottled it.

No excuse re O'Gara, once a non-tackler, always a non-tackler.

Fair play to Kearney and Shaw, legends the pair.

Shaw played good put gave away 2 penaltys for stupid high tackles...:mad:
Kearney was excellent alright!!

I was looking at Fourie's try again...
Everyone is blaming O'Gara but take a look at Bowe's effort to stop him... He could have done alot better!!!
Fitzgerald also shot out of the line..
We can play the blame game but we'll be playing all night!!:rolleyes:

[joeSoap]

Well I got it very wrong....I thought they were going to get a pasting, and I'm glad to admit I was wrong.

This was heartbreaking. It was a ludicrous penalty to concede....no excuses. I'll bet that dressing room was very very silent for a while afterwards. I have sympathy with him though, because I can only imagine how he must be feeling now. Shaws post match interview said it all...When asked how he felt about finally getting a test start after 18 Lions appearances, he couldn't reply...20 seconds of silence followed by one sentence; "I really wanted to win today" after which he walked away with tears in his eyes.

Shaw was immense. Kearney too. We finally saw a nasty streak in Drico....Roussow didn't know where he was going off after that hit. We needed more of it.I thought Fitzgerald was poor, Jones very good, with Phillips that little bit too hesitant for me. Bowe and Roberts did their jobs well.

Game changed when we had to revert to non contested scrums. It gave Spies too much of a platform and enabled them to get vital scores. Sheridan and Adam Jones were immense. Paulie was Paulie, and Wally did well. Croft is a little out of his depth at this level and Heaslip was like a rabbit in the headlights all day. Can someone please tell me what the f**k Alun Wyn-Jones was doing out on that pitch?

Injuries wil see the Bull get a test place next week, and probably Earls. I hope they start ROG next week to show a bit of faith and give him the chance to restore his confidence.

Terrible, terrible way to lose a game...still sick!!:(

Burger and Botha both cited....Burger should have seen red. That ref can kiss big games bye bye for the forseeable future.

[OneRedArmy]

O'Gara was the last man I'd blame for Fourie's try.

[OneRedArmy]

Start ROG for "his confidence"?! He'll get what a 32 year old bottler deserves.

Hook will start, and rightly so, he's the future.

I'm sickened by the Munster bias on here.

[Réiteoir]

Start ROG for "his confidence"?! He'll get what a 32 year old bottler deserves.

Hook will start, and rightly so, he's the future.

I'm sickened by the Munster bias on here.

No doubt you'll get the usual red-necked suspects all over trying to defend their golden boy, biy

[endabob1]

ROG was stupid beyond belief, an absolute penalty, no contest but wtf was he doing kicking possession away in the last minute of a tied test match in the first place???

It might sounds bitter but I think every close call has gone the Boks way in the 2 tests.
Plus all respect I had for John Smit went out the window when he came waving an imaginary card to the ref, does he think he's f--king Ronaldo

[joeSoap]

Start ROG for "his confidence"?! He'll get what a 32 year old bottler deserves.

Hook will start, and rightly so, he's the future.

I'm sickened by the Munster bias on here.

I never had you down as a narrow minded idiot, but you're slowly changing my mind. The point I was making was that it would be a good opportunity to pick himself back up straight away. I am in no way biased in my posts in this thread... I am a Lions supporter here, not a Munster one.

I'm not overly optimistic about the future if James Hook is it...terrible decision maker, his brains not quick enough and he doesn't have it in him to change a game for the better.

[Superhoops]

ROG was stupid beyond belief, an absolute penalty, no contest but wtf was he doing kicking possession away in the last minute of a tied test match in the first place???

It might sounds bitter but I think every close call has gone the Boks way in the 2 tests.
Plus all respect I had for John Smit went out the window when he came waving an imaginary card to the ref, does he think he's f--king Ronaldo

Not sure if I would call ROG's decision to kick to try and force the issue from deep in his own half stupid, they had to try something. However, what is inexcusable was how he bottled out of the challenge to gather his own kick. If he had shown even a small proportion of the commitment and bravery that Rob Kearney showed all game in going to gather the high ball and challenged for the ball, he would never have been penalised.

Stupid - No, Windy - Yes.

Agree about John Smit. Could not believe how the Sky panelists bigged him up after his post match interview but never mentioned the disgraceful imaginary card incident.

[pete]

Lions were superb in the 1st half but offered nothing for pretty much the entire second half. If SA could have taken their penalties it would not have been so tight.

Am I the only one you thinks it was not a try for SA? You could see from behind the goal that the ball was level with his head & then when put together with the other angle his foot is out of touch.

Touch judge really the ref down. He tells him it is at least a yellow (what does that mean) so presumably he saw the incident. Ludicrous decision. Burger should miss Tri-Nations for that.

For a long time I have wondered what touch judges do. They never make a call for try decisions often when clearcut & use the TMO too much.

[DmanDmythDledge]

The foot that was in touch was definitely the player behind him. I think the right call was made.

[shakermaker1982]

The injuries killed them but they also went into their shell a little in the second half as the Boks started to go up the gears. It was a great game of rugby and it's such a shame that the third test doesn't have anything riding on it.

Kearney was outstanding and Shaw justified his selection.

O'Gara? I don't know what to say really.

[IsMiseSean]

There is no munster bias on my part... Im not a Munster supporter, im not Connacht, Leinster or Ulster. These teams are just feeder teams into the Irish squad to me (well not really connacht).
ROG is an Irish legend and deserves respect for what he has done for the Irish team since his debut in 2000. Without him Ireland would NOT have one the Grandslam or the triple crowns over the past few years. It doesnt matter how good our outside backs are or our forwards, without a quality FH no team will win anything of any meaning in world rugby. No ROG would have mean't Paddy Wallace playing FH for the last few years, that would not have brought us any success.
Im disgusted by the lack of respect show to him.... I expect it from English and Welsh fans but not fellow Irishmen.
Yes he made a mistake but it could have been anyone to have a rush of blood like that... Because its ROG people are quick to jump on him, its pathetic!!

[Superhoops]

.....Yes he made a mistake but it could have been anyone to have a rush of blood like that... Because its ROG people are quick to jump on him, its pathetic!!
If ROG had been as quick to jump for the ball then people would not be jumping on him at all.

There is a difference between making a mistake and turning your back on a ball you has hoisted instead of jumping to contest it. He lost his bottle and pulled out of the contact.

How do you respect a player who is not prepared to put himself on the line?

[OneRedArmy]

I never had you down as a narrow minded idiot, but you're slowly changing my mind. The point I was making was that it would be a good opportunity to pick himself back up straight away. I am in no way biased in my posts in this thread... I am a Lions supporter here, not a Munster one.

I'm not overly optimistic about the future if James Hook is it...terrible decision maker, his brains not quick enough and he doesn't have it in him to change a game for the better.Narrow minded? Your team for the second test picked every Munster player apart from O'Gara.

You had Earls in over Fitz, despite Earls being a weaker kicker, tackler and passer and wing being his least recognised position.

I was harsh on O'Gara because I was angry that he cost us the game. Superhoops post sums up my view. I've no idea why he kicked possession away in the last minute anyway.

But in terms of the last test, I'm not sure bringing someone in who won't tour again is the right thing to do. Now is the time to play Hook, Earls etc.

[jbyrne]

Start ROG for "his confidence"?! He'll get what a 32 year old bottler deserves.

you obviously havent seen ROG play too much if you think he's a bottler

[drummerboy]

I think Hook is a better option against the physicality of the Springboks. However I thought Philips decided to kick possession away continuously in the second half and that was the main problem. ROG had a nightmare performance in what will probably be his last appearance in a Lions shirt.

[endabob1]

I think Hook is a better option against the physicality of the Springboks. However I thought Philips decided to kick possession away continuously in the second half and that was the main problem. ROG had a nightmare performance in what will probably be his last appearance in a Lions shirt.

It seemed to me to be a change in tactics at half time, we kicked a lot more ball away, which in dry warm conditions perfect for teams to run seemed a strange decision.

In ROG's defence he was brought in at centre where he would be very very unfamiliar territory for him, no excuses for his rush of blood for the penalty though.

[Dodge]

In ROG's defence he was brought in at centre where he would be very very unfamiliar territory for him, no excuses for his rush of blood for the penalty though.

I thought he played out half and Jones went into centre. His re-starts indicate this too

[pete]

Im disgusted by the lack of respect show to him.... I expect it from English and Welsh fans but not fellow Irishmen.
Yes he made a mistake but it could have been anyone to have a rush of blood like that... Because its ROG people are quick to jump on him, its pathetic!!

I agree. He had a really bad 12 minutes & suddenly he is & always has been a rubbish player. When he put the kick up he was looking for the player next to him to run too but that player made no effort. I would fault ROG for not jumping but can't fault him for kicing the ball he did. Incidently if Jones had kicked the free kick into touch it would never have happened.

Been reading a bit on BBC website 606 & comments lack any perspective. People also queuing up to slate Earls after game 1 but latee on suggesting he be on the bench for test 2.


I thought he played out half and Jones went into centre. His re-starts indicate this too

Correct. Jones went to outside centre I believe with Bowe inside him.

It is easy to debate in hindsight but I think there were some poor decisions related to the bench. I would have Earls instead of Williams as offers more options. I thought it was trange to substitute Wallace for Williams as already had 3 second rows on the pitch. Shaw had a very good game but he was tiring & taking him off would have been better option.

[Stuttgart88]

De Villers' comments were a disgarce too. As brillliant a spectacle as top class rugby union is, I still can't help feel that there's a reluctance high up to take on some of the worst aspects of the game. Burger gets 8 weeks - a joke of a suspension. I can't imagine he'll lose much sleep over yesterday's headline in The Observer - "5 Lions in Hospital, Burger Takes The Blame" . If anything he'd cut it out & show to his grandchildren :)

Still, imagine if the ball sailing through the posts with the clock already run down was at Cardiff. Such a fine line and all that. What was it Kipling said about defeat & victory?

[rambler14]

Correct. Jones went to outside centre I believe with Bowe inside him.



I think it was Fitzgerald with Bowe and Williams in the wings.

[endabob1]

If ROG did go fly half I take back my defence of him ;) from his positioning for the try I thought he was where I'd expect my centre to be.

[pete]

De Villers' comments were a disgarce too. As brillliant a spectacle as top class rugby union is...

I agree. His comments about Burger incident not deserving even a yellow card was disgraceful & if it was football probably would be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. The other incidents were just part of the game & the Lions gave as good as they got but gouging is completely different. How does Quinlan get 12 weeks & Burger 8 weeks? :confused:


"I don't believe it was a card at all," stated De Villiers. "In the first minute already there had been a lot of needle and if you watch the whole game you will see how many yellow cards they were let off.

[Real ale Madrid]

First time on here since Saturday. O'Gara getting a lot of slagging which i suppose is fair enough. That belt on the forehead must have done some damage tho. I mean watching O'Gara over the years I can't help but wondering if he hadn't got that bang in the head when he came on, would he have just kicked the ball into the stand when he recieved it in the 22 in the last minute - i'm almost certain he would.

I think the selectors got it wrong again - they messed up big time again by picking poor subs - i don't think any substitue made an impact - and you need to pick 2 props in the subs IMO. Uncontested scrums were a big factor against them, and was avoidable.

I don't think the concept is dead tho - think this tour has done a lot for the credibility of the lions - i mean there was 5 lads in hospital after the game? Shows that the players care, and its pretty obvious ths supporters care so hopefully it can continue.