Rugby Union 2009

[OneRedArmy]

It just seems to be a typical Sky Sports, hype-driven affair. Are the N. Hemisphere teams so weak in the modern age that they have to pool their resources to beat one of the S.Hemisphere teams? No, there have been several examples in recent years of Northern teams beating Southern ones, although the Southerners still hold a general advantage. It's perpetuating a stereotype that our teams can't compete on their own, even though they've clearly proved they can.

Also, it's been a long rugby season. The SA teams play ferociously - why would the likes of O'Driscoll and O'Connell travel all this way to get battered for 6 weeks after winning Magners Leagues, Heineken Cups and Six Nations titles, and having busted their guts to do so? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Finally, to be extremely cynical, it just seems an excuse for Irish people to wear a British jersey and not feel at all bad about it, because they've stuck "and Irish" in the middle of "British Lions" And yes, I do know that Irish players have always played in the Lions, that's not the point. The point is that in this endeavour, everyone involved with rugby is happy to be British in all but name.There is a lot of history behind the Lions. Never mind Skysports, it predates TV.

As for giving Irish people an excuse to wear a British jersey, given the amount of English football jersies in the country I don't think people have to search too hard for an excuse.

I find that a lot of the blow in fans of rugby who never played or supported an AIL or junior side are the ones that are bothered by the Lions and to a lesser extent the international side. For most people that grew up with rugby, the Lions is a rare example to watch the best of the 4 nations play together.

Maybe now is the time to make it more inclusive and bring in France and Italy, in the same way the Ryder Cup did it the 70s. I suspect that would end the complaining, as it's real driven from an anti-British stance whatever the reasons given.

Now is probably a good time to widen it as I can't see any scratch side being as competitive as in the past now the professional game is embedded.

[paul_oshea]

if you are going to do that why not a xv from N v 15 from south. Its like the provinces a whole continent versus one country its hardly fair....

[Aberdonian Stu]

Do you read Ross O'Carroll Kelly? Kiely's is the epicentre of collar up, roysh lads, D4-ism.

I don't say that as a negative, only as a statement of fact.



I would hardly use a satirical series of novels and articles as useful sources for facts. Kiely's is a pub, one that is unsurprisingly popular amongst rugby people given its location in Donnybrook. It also happens to serve good beer.

[Rovers fan]

Am I the only one who doesn't give a fiddler's fart about the Lions?

NO!

I love rugby and golf is probably my favourite sport, but I really don't get the hype that surrounds the Lions Tour and The Ryder Cup.....

[Bald Student]

I would hardly use a satirical series of novels and articles as useful sources for facts.I think you misunderstand. Kiely's is flash because Leinster Rugby drinks there and Leinster Rugby is flash because it drinks in Keily's. It's a perfectly straightforward and logical argument.

[pete]

Am I the only one who doesn't give a fiddler's fart about the Lions?

I think if didn't have Sky Sports I would not go out of my way to watch it. Would be more interested in Irish performances than Lions results.

[Jofspring]

Well the bottom line is it means a hell of alot to the players playing. These players have grown up wanting to be lions players because it is such a rare thing to be apart of and not everyone gets a chance to be involved. Alot of rugby players come from clubs with great history of past greats playing in these tests and they want to emulate this and be apart of it. If its the British part people have problems with well basically thats just sad. Call it the Irish and British Lions if you feel like that. The british part gets no preference over any thing else. The crest have all four countries crests on it and gives no special preference to any one.

[Macy]

I'd be with OneRedArmy, in that it's something that's always been something referenced when you're playing rugby. It's probably un-PC these days, but I remember the '73 tour being referenced when it was being drilled into us to stick up for each other on the pitch. I saw Jonathon Davies on inside sport suggesting it was the one regret of his career that he didn't play for the Lions.

I don't remember such a back lash the last tour, but then rugby wasn't on such a wave then and wasn't deemed to be threatening other sports to the extent it is now.

I don't agree with extending it out to France and Italy though. The only reason golf did it was because the Ryder Cup was no longer competitive. The only reason the lions survived professionalism is because of the history and tradition - no need to mess with that to try and justify it as not being perceived as "British".

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well the big issue a lot of fans had with the last tour was the squad size. It was far too big and somewhat devalued the meaning of a call up.

[OwlsFan]

Is this a smaller squad?

[Aberdonian Stu]

Much, it's got 8 less players,

[OneRedArmy]

Woodward wrecked the ethos as well. Bringing Alastair Campbell as a spin doctor, completely separating the dirt-trackers (midweek side) and the Test side at an early stage etc. The Kiwi media makes the English rags looks like Ireland's Own and when they got a sniff of blood the wheels fell off.

For anyone thats not convinced about the Lions, at least get a copy of Living with the Lions from 1997 (I have it on video, not sure about DVD?). Absolutely seminal fly on the wall sports documentary. Passionate stuff, but most of all, the craic looks mighty (for players and fans alike) and I came away from it wanting to go on a tour (still unfulfilled, bloody recession!).

[joeSoap]

I was on that Lions tour in 97 as a drunken spectator and boy what a trip. The atmosphere, particularly at the mid week games was unreal. Watching that Living with Lions DVD really brought it back. The camraderie and unity really showed in the on field performances and this was highlighted by three things in particular on that DVD- Firstly, John Bentley. A 'never before heard of' Rugby League guy whose personality really lit up the tour. That, and his absolutely amazing try in the midweek game against the Gauteng Lions. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dztO46wJR4)
Secondly, the determination of Martin Johnson to get back out on the field after this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0XuHJOEbHo) against Natal.
And thirdly...just imagine how motivated they were after this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pHqw4XZhPE)
What a great sporting experience that tour was. I will remember it forever.

[Macy]

D'Arcy called up for the lions... http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2009/0603/1224247983947.html

[pete]

D'Arcy called up for the lions... http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2009/0603/1224247983947.html

Before D'arcy were Roberts & Flutey the only inside centres?

[Bald Student]

Before D'arcy were Roberts & Flutey the only inside centres?

Earls, The Luke and BOD have all played there as well.

[joeSoap]

Big big win tonight with impressive performances by Bowe, BOD (apart from gifting them a try by moving up too soon), Roberts, Hines and Croft. The Lions are struggling badly at half back. On Saturday, ROG and Blair were poor...tonight Jones and Phillips didn't fare much better. I fear for them against the Boks back row and halves.

Improvement needed...but possible.

[Jofspring]

Thought Bowe was a different class on the pitch, scoring two tries and setting up a couple. O Driscoll and roberts had a great game and all the forwards where solid both in attacking with the ball and agressive in defense. Phillips did well but got away with alot, he was slow with passing at times but was able to recover well with his strenght. He gives another great option though with the way he can attack and off load in the tackle. Kearney did very well and tried to attack more than he has been recently but if Byrne keeps his form up i think he will get the fullback position for the test side.

[jbyrne]

It just seems to be a typical Sky Sports, hype-driven affair. Are the N. Hemisphere teams so weak in the modern age that they have to pool their resources to beat one of the S.Hemisphere teams? No, there have been several examples in recent years of Northern teams beating Southern ones, although the Southerners still hold a general advantage. It's perpetuating a stereotype that our teams can't compete on their own, even though they've clearly proved they can.


what rubbish. the tour existed long before sky. skys coverage actually allows us to see all the matches which wasnt possible before. maybe hyped up a little... but so what?


Also, it's been a long rugby season. The SA teams play ferociously - why would the likes of O'Driscoll and O'Connell travel all this way to get battered for 6 weeks after winning Magners Leagues, Heineken Cups and Six Nations titles, and having busted their guts to do so? Doesn't make any sense to me.


did it cross your mind that they may be proud sportsmen eagar to be involved in something with such a long and proud tradition? they are clearly loving being part of it. anyway, the Irish international rugby player is a very protected sportsman who only plays a limited amount of matches a season to protect them from burn-out


Finally, to be extremely cynical, it just seems an excuse for Irish people to wear a British jersey and not feel at all bad about it, because they've stuck "and Irish" in the middle of "British Lions" And yes, I do know that Irish players have always played in the Lions, that's not the point. The point is that in this endeavour, everyone involved with rugby is happy to be British in all but name.

i thought your post couldnt get any worse but you really did save the best for last :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

Third side selected. Fitzgerald playing inside centre is intereting enough. D'Arcy on the bench

Lions team v Cheetahs:
Lee Byrne (Ospreys & Wales);
Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues & Wales),
Keith Earls (Munster & Ireland),
Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster & Ireland),
Shane Williams (Ospreys & Wales);
James Hook (Ospreys & Wales),
Harry Ellis (Leicester & England);
Andrew Sheridan (Sale & England),
Ross Ford (Edinburgh & Scotland),
Euan Murray (Northampton & Scotland),
Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster & Ireland),
Paul O'Connell (Munster & Ireland - capt),
Stephen Ferris (Ulster & Ireland),
Joe Worsley (Wasps & England),
Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues & Wales).

Replacements:
Matthew Rees (Scarlets & Wales),
Adam Jones (Ospreys & Wales),
Simon Shaw (Wasps & England),
Nathan Hines (Perpignan & Scotland),
Mike Blair (Edinburgh & Scotland),
Ronan O'Gara (Munster & Ireland),
Gordon D'Arcy (Leinster & Ireland).

[pete]

Tomorrows team just seems to be an attempt to give everyone a run out. Difficult for the players as some combinations are not ideal. Any one who hasn't impressed yet will surely need to do so tomorrow to be considered for the test team which is harsh on those who have not played yet.

[OneRedArmy]

On the basis McGeechan said 4 weeks ago everyone would get at least one match before the Tests then that's exactly what it is.

[Jofspring]

British & Irish Lions (vs Sharks)

15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales)
13. Brian O’Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster/Ireland)
10. Ronan O’Gara (Munster/Ireland)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)

8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O’Connell (Munster/Ireland) captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)

Replacements

16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
18. Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England)
19. Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England)
20. Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland)
21. Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England)
22. Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues/Wales)

Think this is probably Williams last chance to impress if he wants to make the test team. He's been very poor so far.

[pete]

Think this is probably Williams last chance to impress if he wants to make the test team. He's been very poor so far.

+1.

The interception he gave away sums up his performances as he is holding onto the ball far too much & thinks he can do everything himself. It looks like the other players don't know what he is going to do.

Strange not to see Kearney start as Byrne has had 2 games already.
Fitzgerald has a chance as the left wing slot is very much open.
O'Gara needs a big game to force his way onto the bench at the very least.
Solid game from Heaslip will seal his place in the team as Powell has been eratic.
Pack looks very close to starting test side.

[endabob1]

Getting closer to the test side, a handfull of those lads are playing for a test start but that looks like about 9 or 10 names from the side I'd expect to run out in Durban in 2 weeks time

[Youths4Ever]

Another Irish player out Ferris (http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2009/0609/ferriss_lions.html)

[rambler14]

Half the Irish picked have either dropped out or can't get in the ANY team selected by Geech. There not injured but it's turning into a terrible tour for the likes of O'Callaghan and Kearney.

[Dodge]

Half the Irish picked have either dropped out or can't get in the ANY team selected by Geech. There not injured but it's turning into a terrible tour for the likes of O'Callaghan and Kearney.

How is it a terrible tour? Better players are keeping them out of the team. Thats all, why the drama?

[shakermaker1982]

Gutted for Ferris.

Has anybody been reading Stephen Jones column in the Times? Anti Irish beyond belief. BOD doesn't deserve a starting place, Earls is crap and O'Connell isn't much better etc.

Bowe, BOD, O'Connell and Wallace are nailed on certs for the first test IMO (injuries permitting).

[endabob1]

I think ferris would have been in the test side or at worst on the bench so it's a huge blow for him.
Kearney was always behind Lee Byrne in the pecking order, but I thought he had a good game against the Lions when he got his chance & I would think he will be hoping for a bench spot due to his utility
O'Callaghan was behind Alun Wyn Jones for the second lock spot going over but has done himself no real favours from what I've seen of him so far, don't expect him to trouble the test squad which is a pity because after the Ireland Wales Game I thought him & POC took their line out apart but his temprament will always be a question mark.
I'd agree that POC, BOD & Bowe are all certain to start, Wallace must be pretty close too & I think a big game from Heaslip would seal his spot.
I can see ROG missing out completely as Hook might be seen as a better bench option because of his flexibility.

[joeSoap]

As it stands at the moment I can see the test team being along the lines of:

Byrne: Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Fitzgerald: Jones, Phillips: Jenkins, Mears, Murray: O'Connell, Hines: Croft, Worsley, Heaslip.

Subs; Rees, Vickery, Wyn-Jones, Wallace, Ellis, Hook, Kearney.

Thats how I see it going. The only major questions are at left wing and open side flanker. Wallace and Williams are both badly out of form. Fitzgerald might edge out Kearney or possibly Earls for the left wing spot.

[Real ale Madrid]

Don't understand how people suddenly think Hook is above the pecking order ahead of O'Gara, yes he is versatile - but not in the tests imo.I mean he wasnt deemed good enough to travel a few weeks ago. O'Gara has done nothing wrong so far - neither has Jones - its a 50/50 call there still.

Disapointed O'Callaghan hasn't got more game time, he could yet play a big part in the tour. Although Wyn-Jones has done very well, better than i expected. He was crap in the HC Q-final - think he was taken off in that game.
Geech wants to keep a few cards up his sleeve come the tests - so he may not expose all players / combinations in the other matches.

My test team would be:
Byrne, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Moyne, O'Gara/Jones, Phillips, Sheridan, Mears, Murray, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones, Croft, Heaslip, Wallace

[joeSoap]

Don't understand how people suddenly think Hook is above the pecking order ahead of O'Gara, yes he is versatile - but not in the tests imo.I mean he wasnt deemed good enough to travel a few weeks ago. O'Gara has done nothing wrong so far - neither has Jones - its a 50/50 call there still.

Disapointed O'Callaghan hasn't got more game time, he could yet play a big part in the tour. Although Wyn-Jones has done very well, better than i expected. He was crap in the HC Q-final - think he was taken off in that game.
Geech wants to keep a few cards up his sleeve come the tests - so he may not expose all players / combinations in the other matches.

My test team would be:
Byrne, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Moyne, O'Gara/Jones, Phillips, Sheridan, Mears, Murray, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones, Croft, Heaslip, Wallace
O'Gara made the tour ahead of Hook initially because of his partnership with O'Leary, who never made it, and because of his experience. He certainly didn't make it on this seasons form, which overall has been quite poor-something he freely admits himself.

Can't see how you have Wallace on that starting XV, or Monye for that matter. Still...it's all about opinion, isn't it?

[pete]

O'Gara needs a good game today as his end of season form was very poor.

Test Team certainties

Byrne, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, ????, O'Gara/Jones, Phillips,
????, ?????, ????, O'Connell, ??????, Croft, Heaslip, ?????

TBH I haven't paid any attention to the front row so have no idea. Will probbaly be Jones alonside O'Connell. Wallace has good chance but needs to show some form tonight. Fitzgerald has good chance but again needs to show it tonight.

IMO Ferris was almost certain to start in the first test.

[Real ale Madrid]

O'Gara made the tour ahead of Hook initially because of his partnership with O'Leary, who never made it, and because of his experience. He certainly didn't make it on this seasons form, which overall has been quite poor-something he freely admits himself.

Can't see how you have Wallace on that starting XV, or Monye for that matter. Still...it's all about opinion, isn't it?

Well its between Wallace and Williams for seven. - neither have set the world alight so far. I like Monye - i think he is an improving international , strong, fast, Good finisher, i will concede he is doubtful to start.

I disagree about Hook - whatever about O'Gara's form throughout the year - he was still better than Hook, again just an opinion. I don't think Hook has earned the right to be in the out-half selection argument.

[joeSoap]

Halfpenny gone home now....

[shakermaker1982]

Wallace for me has to start somewhere in the back row.

[joeSoap]

Wallace for me has to start somewhere in the back row. Why?? He's one of my favourite players but has been woefully off form on this tour so far. Unless he has a massive game tonight, I reckon he doesn't deserve to be in ahead of Worsley who has shown better form on tour. Croft is a shoe in now Ferris has gone home and provides the line out option along with Heaslip. I hope he can pull one out of the bag cos he's a great great player, but you only get a minimum of chances on a tour like this.

[hula4]

Why?? He's one of my favourite players but has been woefully off form on this tour so far. Unless he has a massive game tonight, I reckon he doesn't deserve to be in ahead of Worsley who has shown better form on tour. Croft is a shoe in now Ferris has gone home and provides the line out option along with Heaslip. I hope he can pull one out of the bag cos he's a great great player, but you only get a minimum of chances on a tour like this.

dont think joe worsely has done anything at all, as a matter of fact the one game he played at openside i thought he played himself out of contention altogether, as the lions were absolutely obliterated at the breakdown.

o gara in my opinion is a cert to be in the 22 and a good performance from him tonight could see him in the number 10 jersey for the first test.

i think the test team will be something like

byrne
bowe
bod
roberts
moyne
rog
phillips
heaslip
wallace
croft
aw jones
poc
jenkins
mears
murray

subs
rees
sheridan
hines
williams (if fit)
ellis
s jones
kearney

[Youths4Ever]

does anybody know if the Churchill cup games are available to watch online Ireland first game is tonight at 11.30

[rambler14]

Test team will be:

--------Byrne
Bowe ---------Monye
---O'Driscoll Roberts
------Jones Phillips

Jenkins Mears Sheridan
--O'Connell Wyn Jones
Croft(Would have been Ferris) Heaslip Wallace


Subs: Murray, Rees, Hines, M Williams, Blair, O'Gara and Earls/Fitzgerald

[rambler14]

does anybody know if the Churchill cup games are available to watch online Ireland first game is tonight at 11.30

Live on Sky so i'd presume my2p2 would have it.....if you ain't got sky.

[joeSoap]

39-3 win...facile victory marred by scandalous amount of penalties and free kicks conceded in 2nd half. Wallace did well and played himself into contention. By contrast I think ROG played himself out of it. Test certs at the moment for me are: Byrne, Bowe, BOD, Roberts, Phillips, O'Connell, Croft and Heaslip. Everything else is still up for grabs.

[Dodge]

http://209.44.113.146/

Should have links later

[OneRedArmy]

Kaplan did his usual best to ruin the game.

Agree that ROG didn't do enough, way too many grubbers and cross kicks. Heaslip has done enough, but if Williams can get fit I'd still favour him at 7. Fitzgerald is right in there for a wing spot.

[pete]

Agree that ROG didn't do enough, way too many grubbers and cross kicks. Heaslip has done enough, but if Williams can get fit I'd still favour him at 7. Fitzgerald is right in there for a wing spot.

Agree with that.

Couple of good goal kicks might help O'Gara as need test kicker to be close to 100%. Shane Williams must be done now as he has plenty of chances. Fitzgerald was sharp even if no real clear cut chances for him. O'Driscoll looks very sharp.

Lions have a big problem at the breakdown.

[endabob1]

Test Side as it stands for me
Byrne, Bowe, BOD, Roberts, Fitzgerald*,Jones, Phillips, Heaslip, Wallace, Croft, Jones, POC, Sheridan, Mears** , Murray
*Not sure about Fitzgerald but no one else is really putting their hands up, it would seem amazing that Williams would miss out entirely but his form is nothing like it should be, I have a sneaking suspicion that he may be included regardless of form on the advice of the Welsh coaching contingent.
** I’m not a Mears fan and had Jerry travelled he would have been the test hooker, I think our line out is a weakness because he is missing & expect the Boks to really contest & disrupt our balls, Bakkies & Matfield are the best in the world & I think we’ll be in trouble in this area.

Jones is now a shoe-in for 10 imho & O’Gara will do well to make the 22, I stand by the conviction that Hook will be on the bench as he can cover so many positions including 10, Kearney will be on the bench as full back & wing cover with Blair as the cover for scrum half.

Forwards bench, Jenkins, Ford, Hines, Worsley or possibly Williams if fit.

The front rown is odd, I think of the props only really Vickery is out of contention, I think Sheridan will get in because of his bulk, I like Murray (which is why I’ve put him in my side) but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jones in there ahead of him.

Before the tour started I had the Boks down as 3-0 winners but as the series as gone on I am a wee bit more confident, I think there is a chance if we catch them cold in Durban, if the Boks win in Durban it’s a whitewash if the Lions win it really will be a series to remember.
The main 2 problems for me are the lineout (as mentioned above) where I think we are in deep trouble & the breakdown, their back row of Spies, Burger & Smith is as good as anything in world Rugby and I think we will do well to try and hold our own here. Fortunately we won’t have to see any homer refs in the tests but iirc 2 of the 3 are SANZAR ref’s which will theorretically benefit the Bok’s

New prediction Lions to sneak the First by less than a converted try with the Boks coming good in the 2 tests on the High Veldt for a series win.

[shakermaker1982]

Why?? He's one of my favourite players but has been woefully off form on this tour so far. Unless he has a massive game tonight, I reckon he doesn't deserve to be in ahead of Worsley who has shown better form on tour. Croft is a shoe in now Ferris has gone home and provides the line out option along with Heaslip. I hope he can pull one out of the bag cos he's a great great player, but you only get a minimum of chances on a tour like this.

Power, pace and will gain yards, he can play his way into form. Wallace even on a bad day will get over the advantage line and move the team forward.

How many lions have set the tour on fire anyway?

Roberts,
Bowe
Ferris - injured.

Everybody else can go up a couple of gears.

[joeSoap]

Fair point.

It doesn't augur well to have so many players not firing on all cylinders at this point. But I suppose the flip side is that they can improve and perhaps peak for the tests. I just fail to see any evidence that the Lions will be able to cope with the Springboks pack. I hope I'm wrong but I believe they will murder us in the tight five and lineout, and with players like Spies at the back of the scrum they've got a big advantage.

Still, the fact that they wont have played any rugby as a team for a month (and even that was only against Namibia) and that they have no specialist full back in their squad might give the Lions a squeak in Durban at least.

[Real ale Madrid]

First of all on the Lions performance - i thought the Sharks played to keep the score down and the referee was poor. I've never seen a team with so much territory and possession concede so many penalties. I thought it was lopsided at best. O'Gara was disapointing but in general i think the team played really well in difficult circumstances.

Secondly i watched the Ireland A game against Canada last night, good game i thought. I thought the A lads looked a lot sharper than the Senior team a few weeks ago. Were very dominant in the set pieces and thats what pushed them over the line in the last 10 / 15 mins. Canada played much better than a few weeks ago, an enjoyable game.