Where to from now....

[paul_oshea]

I think your second paragraph is a far more attainable and realistic goal, than the first. In the first there are too many external factors, and decisions out of our control. Sligo rovers do seem to be doing good work with underage camps and stuff like that but if they were to train up more coaches or join up with the top division/clubs in the district leagues around them and offer coaching or help in whatever way they can it would be a good start. I think maybe the FAI should look to join up a few District leagues with certain(perhaps permier division) clubs within their area. That way you could have 3/4 leagues attached to one club. All with the hope as acting as direct feeders through to the clubs and ensuring that coaching and standards are at the required standard within the junior clubs. What people seem to forget is the schoolboys are very demographically biased and only in certain areas. There are underage leagues all over the country that are acting almost independent of anything else, if you could organise them through clubs to LOI clubs then this would be the best possible approach all round.

[Charlie Darwin]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

[elroy]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

Simple and maybe stupid question but why is that in rovers case? They are arguably one of the better models for LOI teams, a good catchment area, reasonably well run club, successful etc. Is it as simple to put it down to the recession and the attractiveness of foreign leagues versus our own?

[Charlie Darwin]

Probably everything, but I think it's mainly because the results and style of football have been poor.

[Mr A]

I always thought there was a likelihood that Rovers crowds would drop a bit after the initial surge in Tallaght- especially since ye won the league so quickly- you spoiled the people far too quickly

[geysir]

Are the hopes that the LOI will grow and that Shamrock Rovers descend to mid table anonymity, mutually exclusive?

[Bungle]

I think your second paragraph is a far more attainable and realistic goal, than the first. In the first there are too many external factors, and decisions out of our control. Sligo rovers do seem to be doing good work with underage camps and stuff like that but if they were to train up more coaches or join up with the top division/clubs in the district leagues around them and offer coaching or help in whatever way they can it would be a good start. I think maybe the FAI should look to join up a few District leagues with certain(perhaps permier division) clubs within their area. That way you could have 3/4 leagues attached to one club. All with the hope as acting as direct feeders through to the clubs and ensuring that coaching and standards are at the required standard within the junior clubs. What people seem to forget is the schoolboys are very demographically biased and only in certain areas. There are underage leagues all over the country that are acting almost independent of anything else, if you could organise them through clubs to LOI clubs then this would be the best possible approach all round.

That's the key thing really. There's some great schoolboy clubs in the country that are linked in with cross channel clubs. I mean Liverpool are linked in with St Kevin's and St Joseph's. However, wouldn't it be so much better if those clubs were linked in with the Bohemians or Shamrock Rovers etc.

I do believe that ultimately the very best young players would leave regardless (the top clubs in England get academy players from the Zagrebs and Copenhagens of this world etc), but maybe good LOI set ups would mean that they would leave at a later age, rather than go at 15/16 and those clubs would get good compensation.

I also believe that the league needs to be re-organised. For example, there are too many teams in Dublin. Would it be better to amalgamate some clubs? I mean I know for fellas that love their club it might seem a terrible idea, but it might make sense in the long run, through bigger crowds and bigger revenue.

[Stuttgart88]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

[Bungle]

The elephant in the room is that despite the general rise in quality of the league and the breakthrough in Europe, attendances in the league are still falling, and the FAI's total unwillingness to even promote the league and Rovers' European adventure has done the league no favours whatsoever. Rovers' attendances are down 10% this year in spite of last year's success, and this was beginning even before the results tanked.

Hopefully, Rovers can get their attendances back up. I really feel that they and Sligo Rovers seem to have a model that the league could follow. Would it be an idea to offer tickets for 2-3 euro to local secnondary school kids to try and get the numbers up? It gets them in to the habit of going to their local team and if there's gangs of friends going, it means they might be more likely to keep attending games, because they'll be having the craic.

I remember when I lived in Liverpool, there was loads of my mates who got the bug for football from the old kids pens in Goodison and Anfield. A huge part of being a football supporter is atmosphere and having the craic. If clubs could get youngsters to get the bug early, then they will be the paying supporters 10-15 years down the line.

[Bungle]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?

I feel that the FAI need to get people involved in the game at all levels and seriously trash out how we can take football forward. The hard questions need to be asked and nothing should be off the table, even if it means upsetting alot of people.

[Charlie Darwin]

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?

I feel that the FAI need to get people involved in the game at all levels and seriously trash out how we can take football forward. The hard questions need to be asked and nothing should be off the table, even if it means upsetting alot of people.

Well you brought up Liverpool yourself - Anfield is half a mile from Goodison Park. Last time I checked those clubs weren't doing so badly. Finn Harps and Sligo are two hours apart. Bray is 10 miles and 45 minutes from UCD.

There may be too many clubs in Dublin but that doesn't mean amalgamating them would do any good whatsoever. You'd just be erasing the history of two clubs. When people talk about there being too many clubs in Dublin, they usually mean clubs like UCD and Bray who have exhibited exemplary conduct in the past, not clubs like Bohs, Shels and Rovers who have brought themselves to the brink of extinction.

[ped_ped]

Creating a sustainable professional game in Ireland needs to be viewed as importantly as respecting the histories and traditions of the current league teams (the Bohs, Shels, Droghedas). With the right amounts of money a sustainable Munster / Leinster / Connaught / Ulster could be created and possible garner support but that would be artificial and effectively destroy the history of domestic Irish soccer in one fell swoop.

A Finn Harps / Sligo amalgamation is a smaller example of this.

The League of Ireland as it is now needs to be improved and restructures, not simply replaced.

[paul_oshea]

Some very interesting points here brought up in the last few posts. And I don't think you can just demolish clubs with roots for years, but I also don't think the current model is working beyond perhaps Cork/Sligo/SRFC. And cork have only been out of trouble a short while. The thing is with Sligo, back in the 90s Athlone town when they were in the 1st division and competing for honours they were getting attendances in the 1000s, but as their performances and competitiveness began to slide so too did their attendances. I fear the same for sligo, like any other club, across any code really. I dont think you can erradicate clubs, but having them in the first division based on a number of factors, would seem to be the way to go, it doesn't mean you cant change the face of the teams in the Premier Division. Arsenal and Spurs arent that far from eachother either, but id argue the population base is far greater, with little or no competition from other sports. Its not just simply a case of geogrpahic location or distance from one another. In my very limited opinion its a pity there isn't a north and south dublin, with say UCD and Bray plying their trade in a lower league, an amalgamation of Shels and bohs, both strong footballing territories, and PATS and rovers. But say by doing this, do you permanently put off fans, or do they try and create another club and gradually build it up again? A little like FC United.

I don't think there is any 1 glove fits all solution, but compromise and ensuring stakeholder buy in, is imperative. The structure doesn't work at the moment, its working better than years gone by, coincidentally when we are in a recession, and their is less money in the economy and football clubs, but it can be improved. Geographical centres, based demographically in footballing strongholds surely is the way forward, how you acheive that, without alienating or upsetting traditions and history, is the problem.

[Charlie Darwin]

Dublin clubs have amalgamated before, albeit I think it's never taken place between two professional teams. Drumcondra and Home Farm merged in the 70s, effectively destroying one of the Ireland's greatest clubs.

[Junior]

Hopefully, Rovers can get their attendances back up. I really feel that they and Sligo Rovers seem to have a model that the league could follow. Would it be an idea to offer tickets for 2-3 euro to local secnondary school kids to try and get the numbers up? It gets them in to the habit of going to their local team and if there's gangs of friends going, it means they might be more likely to keep attending games, because they'll be having the craic.

I remember when I lived in Liverpool, there was loads of my mates who got the bug for football from the old kids pens in Goodison and Anfield. A huge part of being a football supporter is atmosphere and having the craic. If clubs could get youngsters to get the bug early, then they will be the paying supporters 10-15 years down the line.

You would like to think that sort of stuff was being done as a mater of course but I have my doubts. Going to primary school in Manchester, we used to get given tickets to one match a year at Maine Road. It was a school outing and all the lads from footie in the playground went with the headmaster and we loved it!! The buzz from the crowd, the smells and noises - as a 7-8 year old you just cant beat it (Most were United fans but that didnt matter - all enjoyed it). 7-8 year olds in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI game, generally they wouldnt have anything to compare against as Im assuming most of them wouldnt have been to an SPL or EPL game at that stage in their lives. You then build on that with giving those kids that went with the school, vouchers for free tickets / 50% off tickets Parent/Child etc....etc....

Then the kids move to secondary school and at 13/14/15 he (or she) is off with their mates and they can go to games without the supervision. Secondary schools could do outings also or indeed just get the discounted u16 priced tickets out there so the kids can go with their mates - This should/could probably be on the back of some coaching from the said club to the school team(s) etc.etc...

All very obvious stuff I know - but its from these small acorns...........

[Stuttgart88]

14 out of 16 Uruguayan clubs are in Montevideo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay..._Divisi%C3%B3n

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.

[Stuttgart88]

7-8 years in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI game

I certainly did but when I was sklightly older I brouyght many friends to Milltown, dalyer, harolds Cross and Belfield and most never went back. wheraes I used to lovel the smell of the deep heat, the "you're going home in an effing ambulance" chants. the net bulging, yellow and red crads, my mates just never bought it at all. It was just too small time compared to what yiou could watch on the telly.

Every now and again a possible game changer came along - the huge crowds at Rovers' first game back on the southside (RDS) - utterly rubbish game, the Derry City phenomenon of the late 80s. I remember in about 92 or 93 a Bohs v Rovers FAI Cup tie went to a second replay and for some mad reason it got loads of attention - 15-20k on a Weds night at Dalyer - and again, not much to write home about.

People spend their leisure money in clubs and pubs and bars and restaurants now. Dalyer and Tolka just aren't viable competing products in my opinion. Leinster rugby probably is - but wouldn't be if it was a 500 man audience at Donnybrook.

[paul_oshea]

14 out of 16 Uruguayan clubs are in Montevideo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay..._Divisi%C3%B3n

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.

I wouldn't be using uruguay(im not saying you are, i think you are trying to point out, but its been used before as an example by CD or someone else and then you consumed it as your own) as a good example, montivideo holds about 2-3/5 of the overall population in Uruguay, its sparse to the north and east. Its along the coast where most people live.

When creating arguments, like goodison and anfield, uruguary and montevideio, try to provide some background with the argument not just pull out one fact to back up your overall argument. It goes on far too often on hear, especially as a one line response. For those not in the know, will remain ignorant.

[Bungle]

Well you brought up Liverpool yourself - Anfield is half a mile from Goodison Park. Last time I checked those clubs weren't doing so badly. Finn Harps and Sligo are two hours apart. Bray is 10 miles and 45 minutes from UCD.

There may be too many clubs in Dublin but that doesn't mean amalgamating them would do any good whatsoever. You'd just be erasing the history of two clubs. When people talk about there being too many clubs in Dublin, they usually mean clubs like UCD and Bray who have exhibited exemplary conduct in the past, not clubs like Bohs, Shels and Rovers who have brought themselves to the brink of extinction.

I respect what you say. However, I don't think you can compare Liverpool to Dublin. In Liverpool, there is essenitally only football. In Dublin, there is GAA and increasingly Rugby that competes with soccer. Secondly, for most scousers, their club is their national team, in the way in which the Boys in Green are for me. They have little or no affinity for Enlgand. I was in Liverpool during 88 and 90 and I can honestly say at least 80 percent of the people went bersek when Razor and Sheeds scored in the respective games in the pubs I was in.

Despite this, even on Merseyside, there has been talk of a ground share between the two clubs. It is unlikely to happen, but it is still an idea that is being floated.

Every club, whether LOI or schoolboy, big or small has a history, which has to be respected. I appreciate where you are coming from and your viewpoint. However, I do think for the league to move forward, these are the very questions that we need to be asking. Ultimately, if we want a league that can be sustainable, which can compete to a decent level in Europe with good facilities and offer young lads the chance to progress at a local club, rather than go to England at 15/16, change has to happen and lots of it.

[Stuttgart88]

Having a down day today Paul? Do you honestly think I was holding Montevideo as a model for the LOI? Jesus H.