Where to from now....

[SkStu]

If you were starting football in Ireland from scratch you would not have anything like the model that prevails.

If you're a kid from, say, Drumcondra, what's to differentiate between Bohs and Shels as they compete for your affilitaion? Two clubs half a mile either side of the Drumcondra Road.

There are too many clubs in Dublin, but as you say they have history and have their fans. Maybe you have to disappoint a few to benefit many, but that's a hypothetical question for now.

Id love if Bohs subsumed Shels (just kidding) but playing devils advocate - you would be driving away fans from the league without any guarantee whatsoever of attracting fans to the League. Its fair to say there would be a sizeable nett negative result. There are far more important obstacles than the number of teams in Dublin. It certainly shouldnt be the starting point for reformation of the league.

[Stuttgart88]

What does Airtricity do to activate its sponsorship - i.e., to get the benefits of the league association? Does it ever do promotional work?

Does it ever have draws for tickets or anything like that?

[Stuttgart88]

Just as a related aside, I see Southgate has quit his FA elite development role, where he was tipped to become technical director. The Times is suggesting it's because the EPL has too much control over youth development still. It's almost the opposite to our situation where the bottom of the game has the power, but in each instance the national association is emasculated.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought this was interesting in the rugby world. There's some risk to the H-Cup due to English and French demanding change (though you'd think a compromise is likely).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/r...re-201503.html

This shows how even a successful product is at risk from the politics of the club game across Europe. I think it highlights the risk associated with a franchise model especially if it is only in context of a few potentially flighty associations rather than a full European-wide breakaway league.

[Stuttgart88]

Laim Brady saying we need to change to 433 and will tell Trap next time they meet

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...21154414.html#

[paul_oshea]

because i knew you stutts, i came in here before i posted a new thread, but you haven't posted the independent article so i qill create a new thread.

[Charlie Darwin]

Glad I won't be in that room when Trapattoni puts a Liam Brady-shaped hole in the wall.

[p2011]

Would be nice if this was the start of some sort of heave against the present set-up. I have lost faith and it would be a pity to wait until qualification for 2014 is out of reach before shaking things up. Brady might not be the perfect manager, but he is in touch with modern football and young players and always sounds like he gives a damn.

[Stuttgart88]

because i knew you stutts, i came in here before i posted a new thread, but you haven't posted the independent article so i qill create a new thread.

Actually I very nearly started a new thread on Brady's views on 433.
I hadn't seen the Indo article about schoolboy football at that stage.

[Stuttgart88]

Meanwhile Paul Doolin has agreed a contract extension to remain as Ireland Under-19 manager for another two seasons. The Dubliner will retain his current portfolio for the upcoming UEFA U19 qualification campaign which begins with a mini-group pre-qualification phase in October when Ireland face Germany, Macedonia and hosts Luxembourg.

Plans to appoint a successor to Ireland U17 boss John Morling are advanced with Donegal native Tom Mohan understood to be favourite.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...ap-202950.html

I don't know much about Mohan. Any of the Harps boys here got an opinion??

[paul_oshea]

Tom Mohan of TCG?

[SwanVsDalton]

Tom Mohan, a firm favourite of mine from his Derry City days and even after he moved over to Harps. Great player. Haven't followed his coaching career but great to see him pop back up.

[Mr A]

I don't think Tom Mohan is from Donegal.. He was from Fermanagh.. Enniskillen I think.. could be wrong.

In any case he was a super hard working player and an absolute gentleman. Know nothing about him as a manager or coach.

[SwanVsDalton]

I don't think Tom Mohan is from Donegal.. He was from Fermanagh.. Enniskillen I think.. could be wrong.

In any case he was a super hard working player and an absolute gentleman. Know nothing about him as a manager or coach.

Yup definitely Fermanagh, think Enniskillen is right.

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across this piece by Emmet Malone and going to post it here as UEFA's possible stance-shift could have implications for the future of the game in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...323462066.html

CROSS-BORDER LEAGUES: UEFA PRESIDENT Michel Platini said yesterday that depending on how an experiment with the women’s senior game in Belgium and the Netherlands turns out, the organisation could change its stance on cross-Border leagues over the coming seasons, something that could have enormous implications for the future of the Airtricity League.

A shift in policy would open the door to initiatives like the Celtic League proposal, a competition involving leading clubs from the likes of Ireland (North and South), Scotland and Wales, that was floated a few years ago but which failed to gain the necessary support, in part because of the lack of Uefa approval and fear that the status of the participating countries’ separate national teams might be undermined.

Now, however, with an increasing number of leagues struggling due to the international financial climate and many lacking the depth required to make them genuinely competitive, Platini has said a major change in policy might be only a few years away.

As part of their attempt to assess the implications of permitting difficult leagues to merge at the highest level, Uefa has sanctioned the women’s senior league in Belgium and the Netherlands to be played on a cross-border basis, with the leading teams from each country at the end of the campaign progressing to the Champions League.

At present the BeNe League project is intended to run for three years after which, Platini says, it will be assessed and a wider discussion can take place on the desirability of merging leagues elsewhere across Europe.

[gastric]

Just came across this piece by Emmet Malone and going to post it here as UEFA's possible stance-shift could have implications for the future of the game in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...323462066.html

This policy excites me and could give domestic football the shot in the arm it needs so badly. While many will criticise me for making the comparison, rugby was dragged kicking and screaming into the professional age and nearly despite itself has become an example for what is possible in sport in Ireland, in terms of marketing and financial stability.

Hopefully, the FAI will learn from this and ensure that football in Ireland has a long and successful future.

[Stuttgart88]

I still think rugby is an unfair comparison, although it's obviously a successful and commendable model. Our rugby players earn as good a living here as they could virtually anywhere, especially given the tax breaks they get by playing here for a long time. In football, there are dozens of levels in close proximity where pay is higher so the temptation is always there for LOI clubs to overpay. The sheer scale of the money and ecosystem of football is almost guaranteed to breed financial instability, and at all levels. Marketing is easier too when you have Europe's best players on your doorstep.

Anyway, the FAI - if they have any staff left - should be calling a meeting next week to devise an idea of how they'd respond to this opportunity and start contingency planning.

It's a fascinating discussion point. What would happen to domestic clubs not involved in the new-look league, how would clubs qualify for European competition etc...

Here's an interesting artiucle from 2009 when Platini was talking about a Belgian / Dutch merger and a Balkan-wide league.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog...-leagues-merge

[gastric]

I still think rugby is an unfair comparison, although it's obviously a successful and commendable model. Our rugby players earn as good a living here as they could virtually anywhere, especially given the tax breaks they get by playing here for a long time. In football, there are dozens of levels in close proximity where pay is higher so the temptation is always there for LOI clubs to overpay. The sheer scale of the money and ecosystem of football is almost guaranteed to breed financial instability, and at all levels. Marketing is easier too when you have Europe's best players on your doorstep.

Anyway, the FAI - if they have any staff left - should be calling a meeting next week to devise an idea of how they'd respond to this opportunity and start contingency planning.

It's a fascinating discussion point. What would happen to domestic clubs not involved in the new-look league, how would clubs qualify for European competition etc...

Here's an interesting artiucle from 2009 when Platini was talking about a Belgian / Dutch merger and a Balkan-wide league.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog...-leagues-merge

Stutts, I completely agree with you about how fascinating a discussion such a possibility creates. In terms of the rugby model, the point I was making was that rugby was successful more by chance than by any plan by the IRFU, and the FAI needs to ensure it is more professional in approach ( and as you alluded to, this may not happen!) What the FAI can learn from the IRFU is that effective marketing is essential in the Irish market and that financial stability should be at the heart of any future plans. TBH, I don't feel confident that the present regime have the necessary nous to make this happen and this certainly worries me.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought this recent Paul Rowan piece was very good:

Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City are all in action today and not a single Irish player is to be found in their ranks. John Devine, who was part of the Arsenal team in the early 1980s that had seven regulars who were either Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland internationals, was remembering those days last week. "We'd be looking at each other across the pitch and there would be three or four on each side and you would be playing for Ireland with them the following Wednesday night. We'd in the players' lounge after the game and we would be discussing going home to play for our country."

Thankfully, Devine doesn't have too much time for nostalgia and instead is trying to do something about the problem. For a start, while he accepts that the Premier League boom means that clubs have inevitably expanded their horizons beyond these islands and into Europe and beyond, he will not countenance any talk that Ireland is no longer capable of producing players of the calibre of Ronnie Whelan, Liam Brady and Frank Stapleton.

We cling on to the hope that the Manchester United starlet Robbie Brady can make the grade, but if he does that may only succeed in masking the problem further.

"The markets have opened up, but that is no excuse for not developing technically good players," Devine says. "It's very obvious that having no Irish participation in those major games means there is something radically wrong. We are not producing players with the right technical skills to prosper at the higher levels of the game.

"The one thing I would like emphasise, there will always be somebody who will mention Robert Brady or somebody. I remember working with Robert as a 10-year-old, but these guys are the exception to the rule. They have the natural ability. The [Damien] Duffs of this world will come through in spite of, rather than because of the system."

As well as tuning into Arsenal's game against Manchester City this afternoon, Devine has just set up a pilot scheme for the South Dublin Football League with three v three and four v four non-competitive games for seven and eight-year-olds. Non-competitive means scores aren't kept or points won.

By having three of these games on a normal-sized seven-a-side pitch, it allows 30 children play football as opposed to the normal 14, with subs not getting games. The emphasis is on passing, control, dribbling and awareness.

Devine successfully introduced this format when Manchester United''s Academy Director of youth development in Ireland in the 1990s for 10 years, but up till now his methods have been shunned by the powerful Dublin schoolboy leagues.

"We are screaming and shouting at kids from the sidelines at the age of seven, eight and nine, which is a form of child abuse," Devine says. "I respect the volunteers, but the powers-that-be have to change the structures. It has to come from the top. We need age-appropriate games for children to produce technically gifted players. If we embraced it for four or five years with the Irish spirit that we have we would compete with anybody and the kids will make a big impact on the British game as well."

Some other changes are afoot. The North Dublin Schoolboys League, in which about 12,500 children play in every week, is also taking tentative steps towards adopting the models which Germany and Spain have proven works and which the English FA are also now rolling out nationwide. In the NDSL's case they have introduced non-competitive football up to the age of 12, with five-aside for eight-year-olds graduating to nine-a-side for 12-yearolds, playing on smaller pitches with smaller goals.

"It is just a pity that maybe the SFAI don't take that on board up to the age of 12 years of age. It's still win at all costs," says the NDSL secretary Tony Gaines.

It is the Dublin & District Schoolboys League which has been most resistant to meaningful change and given that they pride themselves on being the largest schoolboy league in Europe, with 20,000 playing members, that represents a serious problem.

Their under-12s still play 11-a-side on full-size pitches with competitive football kicking in at under-nine level. They play seven-a-side from under eight to under 10 level, with three substitutes who must get game time, but abuses of that rule are reported as widespread by some coaches who prefer to notch up a victory rather than give all the children a chance. The "rule" is only a guideline.

What's clear is the lack of any central policy towards the schoolboy league structure in Dublin and around the country. When he tried to tackle this issue Wim Koevermans, the former FAI High Performance Director met a wall of resistance from a league which jealously guards its independence and still has a strong constituency amongst parents and coaches for maintaining its competitive structure.

Some of those who come from the street football school of hard knocks will also be resistant to change. But the street model was never a bad one; two against two, five against five, you name it, it was played. Clearly though the way forward now that children's football is more formalised and restricted is towards smaller teams, smaller goals and smaller pitches and if competitive football doesn't kick in till children are 13 or 14, then that is more than time enough.

What happened in the summer in Poland clearly showed the need for schoolboys' football to emerge from its survival of the fittest mentality and if it didn't, for some sort of national structure to be imposed. "It was mindboggling," says Devine. "It hurt to watch."

The show moves on further today and it's about time to start catching up.

[Bungle]

I thought this recent Paul Rowan piece was very good:

Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City are all in action today and not a single Irish player is to be found in their ranks. John Devine, who was part of the Arsenal team in the early 1980s that had seven regulars who were either Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland internationals, was remembering those days last week. "We'd be looking at each other across the pitch and there would be three or four on each side and you would be playing for Ireland with them the following Wednesday night. We'd in the players' lounge after the game and we would be discussing going home to play for our country."

Thankfully, Devine doesn't have too much time for nostalgia and instead is trying to do something about the problem. For a start, while he accepts that the Premier League boom means that clubs have inevitably expanded their horizons beyond these islands and into Europe and beyond, he will not countenance any talk that Ireland is no longer capable of producing players of the calibre of Ronnie Whelan, Liam Brady and Frank Stapleton.

We cling on to the hope that the Manchester United starlet Robbie Brady can make the grade, but if he does that may only succeed in masking the problem further.

"The markets have opened up, but that is no excuse for not developing technically good players," Devine says. "It's very obvious that having no Irish participation in those major games means there is something radically wrong. We are not producing players with the right technical skills to prosper at the higher levels of the game.

"The one thing I would like emphasise, there will always be somebody who will mention Robert Brady or somebody. I remember working with Robert as a 10-year-old, but these guys are the exception to the rule. They have the natural ability. The [Damien] Duffs of this world will come through in spite of, rather than because of the system."

As well as tuning into Arsenal's game against Manchester City this afternoon, Devine has just set up a pilot scheme for the South Dublin Football League with three v three and four v four non-competitive games for seven and eight-year-olds. Non-competitive means scores aren't kept or points won.

By having three of these games on a normal-sized seven-a-side pitch, it allows 30 children play football as opposed to the normal 14, with subs not getting games. The emphasis is on passing, control, dribbling and awareness.

Devine successfully introduced this format when Manchester United''s Academy Director of youth development in Ireland in the 1990s for 10 years, but up till now his methods have been shunned by the powerful Dublin schoolboy leagues.

"We are screaming and shouting at kids from the sidelines at the age of seven, eight and nine, which is a form of child abuse," Devine says. "I respect the volunteers, but the powers-that-be have to change the structures. It has to come from the top. We need age-appropriate games for children to produce technically gifted players. If we embraced it for four or five years with the Irish spirit that we have we would compete with anybody and the kids will make a big impact on the British game as well."

Some other changes are afoot. The North Dublin Schoolboys League, in which about 12,500 children play in every week, is also taking tentative steps towards adopting the models which Germany and Spain have proven works and which the English FA are also now rolling out nationwide. In the NDSL's case they have introduced non-competitive football up to the age of 12, with five-aside for eight-year-olds graduating to nine-a-side for 12-yearolds, playing on smaller pitches with smaller goals.

"It is just a pity that maybe the SFAI don't take that on board up to the age of 12 years of age. It's still win at all costs," says the NDSL secretary Tony Gaines.

It is the Dublin & District Schoolboys League which has been most resistant to meaningful change and given that they pride themselves on being the largest schoolboy league in Europe, with 20,000 playing members, that represents a serious problem.

Their under-12s still play 11-a-side on full-size pitches with competitive football kicking in at under-nine level. They play seven-a-side from under eight to under 10 level, with three substitutes who must get game time, but abuses of that rule are reported as widespread by some coaches who prefer to notch up a victory rather than give all the children a chance. The "rule" is only a guideline.

What's clear is the lack of any central policy towards the schoolboy league structure in Dublin and around the country. When he tried to tackle this issue Wim Koevermans, the former FAI High Performance Director met a wall of resistance from a league which jealously guards its independence and still has a strong constituency amongst parents and coaches for maintaining its competitive structure.

Some of those who come from the street football school of hard knocks will also be resistant to change. But the street model was never a bad one; two against two, five against five, you name it, it was played. Clearly though the way forward now that children's football is more formalised and restricted is towards smaller teams, smaller goals and smaller pitches and if competitive football doesn't kick in till children are 13 or 14, then that is more than time enough.

What happened in the summer in Poland clearly showed the need for schoolboys' football to emerge from its survival of the fittest mentality and if it didn't, for some sort of national structure to be imposed. "It was mindboggling," says Devine. "It hurt to watch."

The show moves on further today and it's about time to start catching up.

Thanks for that piece. Really interesting and alot of valid points.

It's funny but after the Spain game, one of my mates who has been a schoolboy coach said to me that while the 4-0 drubbing might have a massive effect on the self-esteem of our players at all levels in the short-medium term, it might be the best thing for the long-term growth of the game to have us shown up so badly. Maybe he will be proved right, but it is sad that the DDSL are not willing to listen to suggestions from guys who have played or have been involved at a high level.