Where to from now....

[paul_oshea]

No but you have used it before as an example, its not just you, its a general point on here when people respond or reply to anothers post. I'm in great form Stutts, dont get upset over a little constructive criticism.

[Bungle]

You would like to think that sort of stuff was being done as a mater of course but I have my doubts. Going to primary school in Manchester, we used to get given tickets to one match a year at Maine Road. It was a school outing and all the lads from footie in the playground went with the headmaster and we loved it!! The buzz from the crowd, the smells and noises - as a 7-8 year old you just cant beat it (Most were United fans but that didnt matter - all enjoyed it). 7-8 year olds in Ireland would get that very same buzz from a LOI game, generally they wouldnt have anything to compare against as Im assuming most of them wouldnt have been to an SPL or EPL game at that stage in their lives. You then build on that with giving those kids that went with the school, vouchers for free tickets / 50% off tickets Parent/Child etc....etc....

Then the kids move to secondary school and at 13/14/15 he (or she) is off with their mates and they can go to games without the supervision. Secondary schools could do outings also or indeed just get the discounted u16 priced tickets out there so the kids can go with their mates - This should/could probably be on the back of some coaching from the said club to the school team(s) etc.etc...

All very obvious stuff I know - but its from these small acorns...........

Yeah hopefully it is happening. I think if it is done right, it is the very thing that could endear local kids to their local team. People love atmosphere and for many this stands over the quality of sport on offer - it was evident in Poland. Stuttgart88 mentions Leinster rugby and I do think that people go to see them, not just for the excellent rugby they play, but because there is a packed house and a good atmosphere at all their games. They wouldn't be as attractive for fans if there was 400 people watching their games imo.

[ifk101]

.... and offer young lads the chance to progress at a local club, rather than go to England at 15/16, change has to happen and lots of it.

You should have a look at the age profile of teams competing in the LOI - they can't get any younger than they are. The top scorer in the First Division is only 18, for example.

[bennocelt]

You sum it up perfectly. I mean two of Ireland's biggest clubs pretty much right beside each other. I think for clubs and the league in general, these are the type of questions that need to be asked. Would football in the Northwest be better if for example Finn Harps amalgameted with Sligo? Would it be beneficial if Shelbourne and Bohs amalgameted? Could UCD be linked in with Bray Wanderers? For fans of those clubs, that might sound awful, but does it make sense in the long run?
.

You are right, awful idea!!!!

[Uncle_Joe]

I think the comparison with Uruguay isn't too far off with regard to the number of clubs in the capital. Montevideo has roughly 50% of the population of the country and 87% of the football clubs. Dublin has roughly 25% of the population and 60% (post Monaghan) of the clubs. If you look at Argentina, Buenos Aires it has 37% of the population and 66% of the clubs. Dublin is on the high end but the ratios are pretty similiar.
Dublin might have too many clubs but going down to just two clubs (north & south) isn't a good idea in my opinion. It makes sense that football would be more popular in urban areas and as a result more clubs should be sustainable.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think everyone is sensitive to the issues - but CD, Liverpool has 2 main clubs in a big football league. If they had 6 pro clubs it'd be considered madness. I don't think your comparison does your argument any justice.

I think it all boils down to objectives / ambition. If the goal is to have a better standard largely professional league that truly represents the pinnacle of the domestic game and has ambitions to get further in Europe, the number of Dublin clubs appears to be too many.

If the goal is just to have a better, more stable domestic league but largely only on a semi-pro basis with no lofty ambitions wrt quality then the current model could probably still be the foundation.

Well it wasn't a direct comparison - I was just saying proximity doesn't pose a massive conundrum to kids trying to decide which club to support.

The number of Dublin clubs is not the problem. We live in a country with one major population centre - no disrespect intended to Cork, Limerick or Galway. If the number of Dublin clubs was pared down, all that would happen would be we'd have less teams. There would no commensurate growth.

[Stuttgart88]

No but you have used it before as an example, its not just you, its a general point on here when people respond or reply to anothers post. I'm in great form Stutts, dont get upset over a little constructive criticism.

It was intended as a joke, not for some pedant to get all uptight about.

[Stuttgart88]

I was just saying proximity doesn't pose a massive conundrum to kids trying to decide which club to support.

In Liverpool you're either a blue or a red family, almost like in Glasgow you're green or blue. Most families in Dublin have no affiliation whatsoever and there's simply nothing about any of the clubs that "hook" people, bar the recent attempts at community outreach.
I think Rovers and Pats have a firm catchment area, maybe with some overlap. Bohs have generally been seen as the club of DNS, but Shels are at risk from a pure "branding" perpective I'd say.

[osarusan]

Most families in Dublin have no affiliation whatsoever and there's simply nothing about any of the clubs that "hook" people, bar the recent attempts at community outreach.

I don't see how fewer clubs would change this at all.

[elroy]

Yeah hopefully it is happening. I think if it is done right, it is the very thing that could endear local kids to their local team. People love atmosphere and for many this stands over the quality of sport on offer - it was evident in Poland. Stuttgart88 mentions Leinster rugby and I do think that people go to see them, not just for the excellent rugby they play, but because there is a packed house and a good atmosphere at all their games. They wouldn't be as attractive for fans if there was 400 people watching their games imo.

There is the "cool" element as well of course. Leinster rugby is very much in right now - so people like to be associated with it, to say I was at the game etc. Munster rugby used to have that vibe and have lost it somewhat in recent years. It is a hard thing to sustain and it will be interesting to see if Leinster can maintain these levels of interest when they inevitability have a few bad years on the field again.


On the Liverpool example. It is an interesting analogy to Dublin, however one point that I dont think has been noted is the level of 'outside' attendance at Liverpool and Everton games. I would suggest a significant percentage of the fans at a Liverpool and indeed Everton home match are from an area greater than an hours travel from the ground. Even from Ireland alone, there must be hundreds if not thousands at each Liverpool home game. The EPL would not be what it is without that market. Unfortunately, LOI does not have such a market.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't see how fewer clubs would change this at all.

Not by itself it wouldn't. That's where marketing and community work comes in and even then other factors would have to be aligned such as a general uplift in quality and facilities etc.

I think the point is that there is a large market for football spectators in Dublin and having 6 clubs competing for it makes less sense than having 2. But you have to have a product that appeals to these potential customers anyway and my guess is that the product that would draw most appeal is a decent level of fully professional product against other clubs representing big regions, possibly also from outside the country. As a Rovers fan I used to love the Bohs rivalry - biggest southside club versus biggest northside club - but I never saw Pats or Shels as anything other than another game even if they were geographically closer rivals. Home Farm and UCD were an irrelevance (until 1984! - and until I went to UCD). Cork should have been a more glamorous opponent but never had their act together, likewise Limerick. Outside of Bohs I used to get properly excited about Athlone and Dundalk because they had both been very good.

Part of the problem is that if these teams aren't taken seriously by their own fans then why should I bother about them? My big regret is that Rovers were in the wilderness during the early Derry years.

I don't know if I'm making this point well but if I felt, say, Cork City fans were as much up for a game against Rovers as the GAA team would be if they were playing the Dubs, then the whole context changes and the whole thing comes more interesting. Local football teams don't speak to the broad community like county GAA teams do.

I'm going to stop now, I'm not happy with how I'm articulating this!

[Junior]

Paul - your wanted over here - Can you get this sorted please!

[Charlie Darwin]

Not by itself it wouldn't. That's where marketing and community work comes in and even then other factors would have to be aligned such as a general uplift in quality and facilities etc.

I think the point is that there is a large market for football spectators in Dublin and having 6 clubs competing for it makes less sense than having 2. But you have to have a product that appeals to these potential customers anyway and my guess is that the product that would draw most appeal is a decent level of fully professional product against other clubs representing big regions, possibly also from outside the country.

Reducing the number of clubs would dilute the product. Potential 'customers' might not have 6 teams to choose from but they'd have a stronger inclination to choose none.

[Stuttgart88]

Other things being equal, maybe you're right. But I'm saying other things have to change too.

I posted a big rant about marketing and the 4Ps on another thread recently. People hate football and football clubs being described as "products" and "brands" but they most certainly are. There's a pull from being associated with a strong identifiable and distinguishable brand - Leinster rugby fans experience this. Of course, there's no way on earth there'll ever be a continent-leading football product in Dublin.

The question is what degree of product improvement is required to improve attendance and commercial metrics, and do the existing Dublin brands stand in the way of this or form part of the improvement?

Context is everything in sport. What sense of context can be developed to make things better?

[Charlie Darwin]

The point is that the problem isn't too many Dublin clubs, it's too few non-Dublin clubs. UCD and Bray are only in the Premier Division because they are better run and have more fans than clubs elsewhere.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't agree with amalgamating/merging sides, our clubs should be the base from which progress is charted and schemed. Granted some would no longer be at the top table and may find themselves in a regional rather than national arena, with a semi pro set up and a route back up should they merit it.

I base this on one thing, the tradition of each side, the roots it has in its community are to be treasured, imperfectly run as many have been. The identity of these clubs is a very dangerous thing to cast aside as all that has kept many of the sides going is the stubborn refusal of those who identify with it to let it die. I can see Cobh Ramblers and Galway playing L.O.I. again. Kildare County, Dublin City, and Sporting Fingal less so.

Now apply that across a league, or several components of the league if the new entity hits turbulence, you could turn an egg timer round on its remaining time. These are big dice to roll, a lot can be lost in an irretrievable manner, for a shiny new product the Irish soccer public may still ignore en masse.

[Stuttgart88]

Merging or collapsing existing clubs is not in my thoughts whatsoever. You hit the nail on the head - it may be that some clubs just no longer have a place at the top table, but they're all proud clubs in their own right and should remain so.

I actually have offered very few dogmatic proposals whatsoever. I've just asked the questions that I think ought to be asked.

[paul_oshea]

Ya i think there has been an established structure over the last couple of pages, that its who is at the top table, as opposed to eradicating clubs completely. But of course the option should always be there to get to the top table.

[Junior]

Just a little anecdote. The lad at casarebelde (football fans casual wear shop) recently contacted all Dublin based LOI clubs offering to sell tickets for their matches, commission free. His bit to help the league I suppose.

Prime location in Temple Bar, presumably plenty of foot traffic daily from Dubs and Irish and Non Irish tourists, stag do's etc..etc...

After a few weeks, Bohs are the only club to take up the offer.

An example of clubs not helping themselves?

[DannyInvincible]

Just a little anecdote. The lad at casarebelde (football fans casual wear shop) recently contacted all Dublin based LOI clubs offering to sell tickets for their matches, commission free. His bit to help the league I suppose.

Prime location in Temple Bar, presumably plenty of foot traffic daily from Dubs and Irish and Non Irish tourists, stag do's etc..etc...

After a few weeks, Bohs are the only club to take up the offer.

An example of clubs not helping themselves?

Unfathomable. What would the other clubs have had to lose? The price of a stamp and envelope?