Where to from now....

[Noelys Guitar]

Professional football is going to go the way of Professional boxing (multitude of belts) and cricket under Kerry Packer (and failry soon too). Especially the Premier League. Your are going to see Premier league games being played in various cities around the world. It will be pure franchising and watch as the owners start flexing thier financial muscle. There might be an opening here for the top teams in the LOI when/if it does happen. A type of second tier European type league.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm pretty sure the EU will flex its muscle and disallow such a move - or at least make it difficult. Centralised selling of TV rights is typically seen as monopolistic behaviour and breach of dominant position, both clear breaches of EU competition rules. However, the EC has allowed leagues and UEFA to collectively sell their rights because it raises more money for the game which is channelled downwards. The EU has a favoured vision of sports structure and kind of tuns a blind eye to breaches of antitrust rules if it can be shown that the objective is justifiable, legitimate and proportionate. A Super League or franchised league doesn't fit this vision and I believe the clubs would find it hard to get it through. Individual TV rights selling would make many clubs very uneasy. That said, the contract between UEFA and the major clubs (where the clubs agree to be bound by UEFA's rules) expires in 2014 I think. As long as UEFA continues to give ground with regard to fewer international dates, compensation for players injured on international duty etc. I think we'll see the current model stay for some time.

Anyone else got a view?

[geysir]

I concur with Stutts.

[Junior]

Great post geysir - bang on the money.

[Stuttgart88]

Just to correct the above (too late to edit) that should have read 'abuse of dominant position'.

[elroy]

The LOI is always going to struggle to compete with the EPL, in fairness a comparison is even unfair. We should not be trying to build an EPL style league here. The EPL is huge in Asia and they are thousands of miles away, what chance have we so close to it!!

The only way we will be involved in a "big style" league is if there is a creation of a European wide elite league and we may get one (Dublin) and max two participants (Dub and Belfast). next best thing is a Celtic style league, between NI, Scots, Welsh and ourselves with perhaps two or three entries from ROI.

The FAI need to make a concentrated and deliberate effort to develop the game here. Look at the most well attended sport in the country - GAA, even they struggle to get solid regular attendances. But they have sound local support in alot of counties. Thats what we need to develop. We're not talking big numbers here - if each club had a solid following of 5k plus, then that would be a success.

New clubs should be developed in areas that can support such teams - it will take time and investment. But when watching some gaa yday I was thinking that there are some strong sporting counties in this country that have zero LOI involvement and arent even close to it. I would propose a first tier of Irish football comprising teams from Kerry, Limerick City, Cork City, Mayo (Castlebar, W'port or Ballina), Galway United, Silgo Rovers, Derry City, Waterford United, Drogheda United/Dundalk, two teams from Dublin, Tipperary (Clonmel). There may well be scope for one or two more.
But the main points from such a plan would be
1. To have a team in areas of the country such that wherever you are, you are not very far from a LOI club.
2. Each LOI club has a strong catchment area that can support 5k plus regular attendance and
3. (with the exception of Dublin) there is no more than one team in each catchment area - i.e so that the support that is there is not diluted (example being three teams in Galway at one point when only one at best is sustainable.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, I think a good outcome for the LOI would be clubs that have crowds of 3-5k regularly and that have up-to-date stadia and playing surfaces to match. A key ingedient is for them to be rooted in the community and seen as a complement rather than a competitor to intermediate clubs.

You're right that the EPL shouldn't be a benchmark. My guess is that some EPL players earn more in a week or a few weeks than a LOI club turnsover in a full season. So the strategy choice is whether to push for some solution that would allow for a higher (but not top drawer) professional product to be presented to the public, or whether to pare down expectations and have a nice tidy sustainable, mutual model but which ultimately is unlikely to rank much higher than low 30s / high 20s in European coefficient.

[ifk101]

How about a €5 LOI tax on international ticket sales?, ie if you don't hold a LOI season ticket you pay a €5 extra charge for international tickets. The money made from this tax can be re-distributed to the LOI clubs in terms of stadium grants/ youth development projects etc etc.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Tickets to international games are all ready overpriced as it is. That would just mean less people filling the Aviva. Would probably also embitter supporters of English clubs against the LoI, not encourage them.

[Stuttgart88]

But what about the ROI attendees who are openly competing with the LOI - the various intermediate clubs for example, or the schoolboy clubs? Why are LOI clubs more worthy of infrastructure grants? It all goes back to the issue of "joining up" the whole game.

Also, pricing of tickets appears to be a deterrent at the moment and will be for some time. Would a surcharge on existing tickets to finance a part of the game many see as either competing or a basket case might just reduce ROI crowds further.

[ifk101]

Would probably also embitter supporters of English clubs against the LoI, not encourage them.

That ship has sailed.

But what about the ROI attendees who are openly competing with the LOI - the various intermediate clubs for example, or the schoolboy clubs? Why are LOI clubs more worthy of infrastructure grants? It all goes back to the issue of "joining up" the whole game.

Sure, the benefits are the tax don't necessarily need to be restricted to LOI clubs.

Also, pricing of tickets appears to be a deterrent at the moment and will be for some time. Would a surcharge on existing tickets to finance a part of the game many see as either competing or a basket case might just reduce ROI crowds further.

Sure but the domestic game needs funding if it's to improve.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the FAI is a less healthy version of Man United in a way - any money in pays off the debts first. In FAI's case there seems to be flip all left after that!

[Supreme feet]

Haven't been on here in a while; now that the dust has settled a bit after the Euros, here are my thoughts. And I'm sorry to digress from the very interesting grassroots and LOI debate...

I think the biggest indictment of Trapattoni from this tournament was that the starting line-up against Italy contained nine players who started against Italy in Croker in 2009. Given that Duff was injured for that Croker game, and it looks like the only change Trap has made in three years has been to replace Kilbane with Ward - a forced change, in many respects. Italy, by contrast, had only four survivors from 2009 in their starting line-up (Buffon, Chiellini, Pirlo, De Rossi). Statistically, we had the oldest squad in the tournament. We now have a stagnant team in dire need of change, which has been an underlying fear despite our commendable results in the qualifying campaign.

Since 2009, we have had 14 friendlies to try out new players, and given out 14 new caps (Fahey, Green, McCarthy, Cunningham, Sheridan, Clark, Wilson, Walters, Cox, Ward, Coleman, Treacy, Forde, McClean), which doesn't exactly point to an unwillingness to try new talent. Unfortunately, some of our better up-and-coming players had to pull out of squads at times when they had a real chance to cement their places. Also, Gibson and Foley were given opportunities to push on into the starting XI, but they both 'fluffed their auditions' to an extent at home to Macedonia, and they weren't given much of a chance thereafter. It's not like Trap hasn't tried to reshuffle, but it just hasn't worked out for a number of individual players. On the other hand, Trapattoni has also been guilty of misjudgement of players in a number of positions; McCarthy as a 'free role' player, Clark and Wilson being ignored as utility options, Foley in CM, O'Shea at RB, unwillingness to drop Whelan or Andrews even when hideously out of form, picking Keogh as the midfield/forward utility option instead of trying Hoolahan, and keeping faith with Green and McShane in the squad. In this campaign, there will be no margin for error in our team selections. If we have players out of form or out of position while better alternatives are left on the bench or out of the squad completely, we will be punished.

As for the system, well, as has been pointed out on this and other threads, we have the same problem with Robbie Keane as England have had with Wayne Rooney; how do you leave out the top goalscorer? With 12 goals in 18 games in 2010/11, he had to be fitted in somewhere, and as he proved at Liverpool, he isn't well-suited to a lone striker or AM role in a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 variant. Keane's presence has certainly dictated the shape of the team; Trap mused about using Keane in the 'Totti' role, but Keane's natural game is to play on the shoulder of the last defender - Keane has often looked confused when attempting to drop deep (Bulgaria away is a good example of this). Our last win against a mid-to-high seeded team was against Slovakia in 2007, when Keane was suspended and Staunton accidentally stumbled upon his best team; 4-5-1 with Duff, Ireland and McGeady playing behind Kevin Doyle. The extra man in midfield compensated for the fact that we had limited players in CM (Carsley and Kilbane) who both struggled in a 4-4-2 in that campaign. The change in formation is definitely workable for Irish players, and can pay dividends. Now that Keane is winding down his career, it's an ideal time to look at alternatives.

Where to from now? We can write Euro 2012 off as a bad experience. Sweden and Denmark had awful Euro 2000 campaigns, but qualified for most of the tournaments in the following twelve years. I'd be more than happy if we could do the same. The formation needs to change, and the squad needs some fresh blood; that's absolutely clear now. The current starting XI has stayed together for too long, and grown stale. We have a much wider pool of talent than what was available in 2008/9, and the likes of Wilson, McCarthy, Gibson, Hoolahan, McClean and Long should be central to the team's development, after having good seasons last year - not just fringe players. If Clark, Coleman, Meyler, McCann, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham and others make better headway at club level, it should be recognised and rewarded.

The next squad/team announcement is going to be very interesting, and could well define our campaign. If Trap keeps faith with 4-4-2 and fails to shake things up at full-back and central midfield, and continues to ignore club form, it'll be a long two years. I'm just hoping for change, and for the right changes to be made, and that our young players can step up to our expectations. Are the FAI right to keep Trap on? I would say a cautious and partly resigned 'yes'. As Sanchez and McLeish/Smith showed with NI and Scotland, a good club job is far more attractive these days than a mid-ranking international job. If the FAI are, as expected, to return to modest wage packets, our next manager will probably be someone with very little top-level experience, or someone with significant blotches of failure or mediocrity on their CV. Giving Trap the sack after qualifying for our first tournament in 10 years would make the Irish job seem like an extremely unattractive and thankless proposition, even for an accomplished and ambitious manager. Either way, it'll be a risk, and I suppose it's a case of 'better the devil you know' for the time being.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the biggest indictment of Trapattoni from this tournament was that the starting line-up against Italy contained nine players who started against Italy in Croker in 2009.

And 8 (or 7 but Duff was injured) that started the campaign away to Georgia.

Great stuff above, welcome back.

[geysir]

How about a €5 LOI tax on international ticket sales?, ie if you don't hold a LOI season ticket you pay a €5 extra charge for international tickets. The money made from this tax can be re-distributed to the LOI clubs in terms of stadium grants/ youth development projects etc etc.

Rather than raise the ticket price, have a mandatory 10% of total ticket income put aside for the above. Have it regarded as a compulsory duty to cover this obligation.
Possibly designate one friendly for this purpose.

[elroy]

Where to from now? We can write Euro 2012 off as a bad experience. Sweden and Denmark had awful Euro 2000 campaigns, but qualified for most of the tournaments in the following twelve years. I'd be more than happy if we could do the same. The formation needs to change, and the squad needs some fresh blood; that's absolutely clear now. The current starting XI has stayed together for too long, and grown stale. We have a much wider pool of talent than what was available in 2008/9, and the likes of Wilson, McCarthy, Gibson, Hoolahan, McClean and Long should be central to the team's development, after having good seasons last year - not just fringe players. If Clark, Coleman, Meyler, McCann, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham and others make better headway at club level, it should be recognised and rewarded.

The next squad/team announcement is going to be very interesting, and could well define our campaign. If Trap keeps faith with 4-4-2 and fails to shake things up at full-back and central midfield, and continues to ignore club form, it'll be a long two years. I'm just hoping for change, and for the right changes to be made, and that our young players can step up to our expectations. Are the FAI right to keep Trap on? I would say a cautious and partly resigned 'yes'. As Sanchez and McLeish/Smith showed with NI and Scotland, a good club job is far more attractive these days than a mid-ranking international job. If the FAI are, as expected, to return to modest wage packets, our next manager will probably be someone with very little top-level experience, or someone with significant blotches of failure or mediocrity on their CV. Giving Trap the sack after qualifying for our first tournament in 10 years would make the Irish job seem like an extremely unattractive and thankless proposition, even for an accomplished and ambitious manager. Either way, it'll be a risk, and I suppose it's a case of 'better the devil you know' for the time being.

Agree that it would be nonsensical to get rid of Trap after he qualified us for the Euros - a competition that is higher in standard per team than the WC. Trap made alot of mistakes at the Euros but he deserves another shot.

Change is an absolute must at this stage. At the start of his reign, Trap brought in plenty of new players and was more than willing to mix it up when needed. He needs to do the same now again - whatever about the formation, at least five or six new players need to be drafted in. For me and in order of priority I want to see McCarthy, Long, McClean, Gibson, Wilson, Duffy and Clark brought into the squad for the Serbia match and given a good run out in the match.

Question is does anyone believe Trap will make such radical changes for the friendly?!? I for one am not optimistic. I think we will see a squad that mirrors what he brought to the Euros. If that happens and he has a poor start to the campaign, he will be in danger of going the same way as McCarthy did in the Euro 2004 campaign.

[Junior]

Good post supreme.

What makes you say that the FAI are expected to return to modest wage packets? I've not seen the accounts yet were there any comments in there about salaries? Or are you just basing that on the fact that traps and JD's salaries far outweigh the role and performance to date and it's morally what should happen!!

[Supreme feet]

Good post supreme.

What makes you say that the FAI are expected to return to modest wage packets? I've not seen the accounts yet were there any comments in there about salaries? Or are you just basing that on the fact that traps and JD's salaries far outweigh the role and performance to date and it's morally what should happen!!

Just an assumption really, given the expenses associated with the Aviva, and the uncertainty of further backing from Denis O'Brien.

[elroy]

The next donation from Denis O'Brien will be used to support JD's salary.

I think I am getting more and more angry about his salary every day.

[Bungle]

I feel that LOI clubs will never be able to attract really big crowds in the current climate, unless very wealthy Irish businessmen invest in the league, like has happened with clubs like Shakthar Donetsk etc. I could see how a city like Dublin has great potential to invest in and develop a club, but I think the downside is that such people would have little interest in dealing with the small time FAI. I do think that if there was a regional league with the North, Scotland and maybe Norway, like a Magnier's League, it would attract more investment and it would become a more attractive league for fans. Alot of this is pie in the sky stuff because UEFA might not be keen on the idea. Even if it was approved, it might not happen for 10-15 years.

However, I feel that a league with good facilities, clubs that have their own academies with excellent coaches and in the cases of clubs like Sligo Rovers and Cork are regional hubs for the best young players in their areas is very attainable. These clubs could have links with all the schoolboy clubs in the area and be able to identify the very promising players and get them in to their set-up. In return, they would give local clubs top level coaching. I understand that when the likes of Liverpool or Man United come knocking the very best youngsters would be likely to leave, but at least such youngsters would be in the club's academy and the club would be able to receive compensation.