Where to from now....

[SkStu]

Thanks Bungle. Keep the information coming. And while we're at it there's a younger lad in the Boston area - name of Owen Smith and his father's from the Liberties in Dublin. The kid is going to be the next Damien Duff, has a left foot which can make the ball talk.

Id hold out more hope if it was Eoin or Eoghan...

[paul_oshea]

No, not him.

Funny when i lived out there, i was at this guys house from the liberties, i cant remember his first name thought it was smith, but he reminded me a bit of that guy in Fair City who was going out with Carol, and I think Lorcan killed him - i never ever watch Fair city and i don't know how i remember the names, but his character and the weird (nutter)one who always listened to the classical music in his car are stuck in my head. Anyway real liberties fella but very very nice, couldnt do enough for ye.

[osarusan]

http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-eng...visions/92692/

Average wage in the Championship = £250,000 a year. For League 1, £80,000 a year. League 2, £65,000.

http://www.football-lineups.com/tour...home_avg_atte/
Average crowds for the Championship = 17846. League 1, 7462, League 2, 4453.

I realise that there are a lot of people on here who are frustrated with the failure of the LOI to do more to market itself and draw people in.

Stuttgart88 mentioned earlier (not sure what thread) that in order to improve domestic football and keep more players at home, it might have to be turned into something that current LOI fans wouldn't support. But I think the figures above are pretty uncomfortable reading for people who think that we'll ever really in a position to keep our top talent at home. Even in the incredibly optimistic scenario of LOI games averaging 4500 a game, we'd only be matching the figures for League 2. I'm not sure that we can ever realistically hope to meet League 1 attendances, never mind Championship numbers. I know that revenue is made up of more than just crowds, with TV revenue being a big part of it. I found something about Championship clubs getting £1,000,000 each in 2006. No figures for League 1 or 2, but I'm not optimistic that LOI clubs (in whatever guise) will ever get that big a slice of the pie.


So I think that rather than talking about generating a platform to keep our best players at home (or even the second best level), we should be looking at how to keep players at home for longer. We have to deal with the issue of junior clubs packing off our young stars before they ever play LOI, but equally we have to make staying at home a more attractive proposition for them. With better facilites and better crowds, maybe the lure of a decent wage, proper training, and even exposure in European competitions might make a few change their minds.

Speaking of training, if we're going to keep them at home for longer, we have to make sure that they're getting properly trained. We complain that we've lost many talented footballers because English football's bruising academies chewed them up and spat them out, so we need to practice what we preach - more qualified coaches at all leves working toward a common goal.

The problem with all of this, of course, is that neither the FAI or the LOI has a pot to pi$$ in, and we're left in a horrible kind of catch-22 situation.

There is this notion some posters have on here that the LOI is happy with what it is, and doesn't want to improve, but the fact is that all LOI clubs would love to have academies and better facilities and the best coaches, but we simply don't have the money for it.

As Dodge said years ago, there's not a problem in the LOI that can't be solved with money, but the problem, then and now, is where it's going to come from.

[paul_oshea]

The thing is many "millionaires" have invested in clubs but it has got them nowhere, only agro from fans and run the club into receivership or near recievership. ANy wise businessman is not going to invest for no return - and thats why all these other fools have invested, because they really dont know what they are doing, and they dont know how to generate income streams.

If an investor could identify a way of linking up with other clubs or could guarantee, even 1 decent sale a year to the PL or abroad, then I'd be confident the goals above could be achieved.

At the end of the day, if the LOI and its clubs want to increase attendances, generate more revenue, build better facilities, and essentially grow, they need to look to investors to help them. Even if they got another 500 a game in ticket sales, its not going to generate much of the former. Investment and yet keeping with the community vibe of LOI clubs, can and should be achieved*. Bring on board business minded people, get them involved, get them to promote the league.

Some of it may appear pie in the sky talk. But its the only way the league will prosper, I think crowds would then come, its the old field of dreams "build it and they will come".

*And like everything there are exceptions. I'd put SRFC in that bracket.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the League 1 and League 2 numbers put things into perspective. Don't forget that these clubs also receive a downstream solidarity subsidy from the EPL and the FA, not to mention the bigger commercial opportunities.

Here's the rub: Irish football is to a large extent a tributary of the English system. Our public supports English teams and pays to watch English football on the telly. Our better players all work in England and are recruited from Ireland at young ages. Yet we receive not a penny in compensation except for the odd derisory transfer fee.

I don't fully agree with Dodge's proposition that investment is what's needed, or rather I think it is a necessary but insufficient condition. The money needs to be spent well and this will only happen with a proper plan, and a proper plan will only be developed or effective when the Irish football pyramid and governance structure is properly joined up.

[Stuttgart88]

There's a paper I read by two Belgian sports economists saying that (as we all know) the polarisation of resources and competitiveness in European football, and subsequent insolvency of all but a few football clubs can be explained by a conflict between EU employment law and the EU-endorsed UEFA model of football (national leagues with promotion and relegation, international club competitions, and national teams). Post-Bosman EU footballers can move to where they get best paid (an open labour market) but football clubs can't really sell their services across borders - they must play in their domestic leagues (closed product market). This can only be solved by either closing the labour market to some degree (won't happen - remember the old 3+2 rule that Bosman put paid to?) or partial opening of the product market (e.g., cross border leagues - which leaves UEFA vulnerable to a power grab by big clubs across Europe).

The most obvious economic solution to all of European football's financial woes would be for a [20] team big city club US-style closed league with no promotion or relegation and full revenue sharing etc. We could try and negotiate for FAI franchise team or something like that. However this would marginalise UEFA and would find opposition from the EU (abuse of dominant market position when it comes to collectively selling TV rights and other licensing revenues). It would also stand firmly against what all of us football fans believe in.

Therefore I still think the most elegant solution to everything is for Ireland to develop 2, maybe 3or 4 at a stretch, fully professional teams that would gain virtually automatic entry into the Europa League and UEFA would change the Europa League so it becomes regionalised with our teams in the "North West Europe Zone" giving local derby type status to many of the games but also allowing for the Evertons / Sunderlands / Fulhams (or whoever) a chance to field waeker teams midweek and with relatively low travel complications - so they'd support the change too. My hunch (and that;'s all it is - I don't have a crystal ball) is that gate money would go up, sponsorship would go up and TV money would go up. Facilities and wages can be upgraded and a better all-round product would be offered.

The logistics of divvying up European football into enough zones would be hard but not impossible. Alternatively UEFA could look at allowing for a trans-European league not involving the Big 5 so Ireland might be able to enter a team (max two) into a "best of the rest" structure so X and Y teams from Ireland can play the Portos, Anderlechts, Ajaxes etc. The bigger teams in the smaller European leagues would be able to play against teams of similar financial standing.

Something along the above lines is the only way I can envisage the top professional tier of irish football being viable and being a credible alternative to our better (but not best) players playing in the Championship and below.

There are, how many - 6? - clubs in Dublin alone. Though I looked up the distribution of Uruguayan clubs and something like 13 out of 16 top flight clubs are from Montevideo But presumably, in addition to much better gate money, the better clubs get Copa Libertadore income - no idea just guessing.

We all like the history, community links and the quirky quaintness of the LOI but the ££££ genie is out of the bottle. We can't ignore the broadcast revolution and the Bosman ruling.

[AlaskaFox]

There are, how many - 6? - clubs in Dublin alone. Though I looked up the distribution of Uruguayan clubs and something like 13 out of 16 top flight clubs are from Montevideo But presumably, in addition to much better gate money, the better clubs get Copa Libertadore income - no idea just guessing.

From wiki, but the sources seem to be CONMEBOL documents so it should be correct:

Clubs in the Copa Libertadores receive $25,000 for advancing into the second stage and $210,000 per home match in the group phase.^[54] That amount is derived from television rights and stadium advertising.^[54] The payment per home match increases to $295,000 in the round of 16.^[6][54] The prize money then increases as each quarterfinalist gets $375,000, $525,000 for each semifinalist, $625,000 for the runner-up, and $1,000,000 for the winner.^[54]
The winner also receives $2 million from Banco Santander as a bonus.

So for comparison, Penarol, the team who came 3rd in Uruguay last season got $655,000 (over €500,000) despite coming last in their group.

[bennocelt]

As if that would make any difference, Jesus live football on your doorstep. Simples

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, but there's football and football.

It depends on the price, quality and whether you have any affinity for the club. Especially if you're an 'outsider' not from that town or locality.
Can think of lots of people who wouldn't cross the road to see their local club for any variety of those reasons.
And often not because they 'want success' either.

These days, actually prefer a game much more as a dispassionate 'neutral'. And if it's a new ground...
Sad, I know.

[Stuttgart88]

I see Watford has been sold to Italians and Forest has just been sold to Kuwaitis. When is the penny going to drop over there? They have basically been tarting their community assets to ultra rich foreigners so the Murdoch backed Premier League can generate more revenues that they just spend on player wages anyway, a model which bankrupts all but a few. A handful of spivs and opportunists make out like bandits, most notably SKY whose platform has benefitted massively. Brian Clough would turn in his grave at what has happened to Forest. If we think our governance and strategic direction is bad, theirs just sucks.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but a lot more money sloshing about there always draws them in.

[osarusan]

.
I still think the most elegant solution to everything is for Ireland to develop 2, maybe 3or 4 at a stretch, fully professional teams that would gain virtually automatic entry into the Europa League and UEFA would change the Europa League so it becomes regionalised with our teams in the "North West Europe Zone" giving local derby type status to many of the games but also allowing for the Evertons / Sunderlands / Fulhams (or whoever) a chance to field waeker teams midweek and with relatively low travel complications - so they'd support the change too. My hunch (and that;'s all it is - I don't have a crystal ball) is that gate money would go up, sponsorship would go up and TV money would go up. Facilities and wages can be upgraded and a better all-round product would be offered.

The logistics of divvying up European football into enough zones would be hard but not impossible. Alternatively UEFA could look at allowing for a trans-European league not involving the Big 5 so Ireland might be able to enter a team (max two) into a "best of the rest" structure so X and Y teams from Ireland can play the Portos, Anderlechts, Ajaxes etc. The bigger teams in the smaller European leagues would be able to play against teams of similar financial standing.

Something along the above lines is the only way I can envisage the top professional tier of irish football being viable and being a credible alternative to our better (but not best) players playing in the Championship and below.

My first reaction to this is to quote you earlier in your own post:

.
It would also stand firmly against what all of us football fans believe in.

For me, the success of Limerick FC is far more important than success of the National team. I don't expect many people to like that, but that's how it is. So I'm only going to be supportive of change which has as its primary goal the improvement of the LOI (with better players for the national team being a positive side effect). Any idea to break up the top tier of domestic football and put it back together only with a view to improving the role it plays in producing players for the national team is going to run into opposition from LOI fans (which isn't to say it wouldn't happen).

If the first part of your idea happened, I can see two problems. First, when not involved in europa league games, where would these teams be playing in? The LOI? Are you in favour of just giving a bucketload of cash to carefully selected teams to ensure their yearly qualification into Europe, and nothing for the rest? Secondly, just because we'd have better teams doesn't mean they'd all have Irish players. To ensure competitiveness in Europe while maintaining a theme of developing players is very difficult. A look at Sunderland's squad tells me that just over half are not English, while 16 of Everton's squad are not English, and at fulham, the number of non-English players is 20/26. I know these are only examples you used, but the point I'm making is that we could very easily fall into the trap of thinking that having a good standard of football in our league means we'll have a good national team. England has been at a loss for years to explain the disappointing performances at the WC and Euros of the players from 'the best league in the world'. Wouldn't the Irish 'super-clubs' similarly be forced into buying non-Irish players to remain competitive?

I think that your second suggestion of the transnational league would have the same problems, except with only 2 teams, the opportunities for young Irish players would be even more limited.

[Charlie Darwin]

My first reaction to this is to quote you earlier in your own post:

For me, the success of Limerick FC is far more important than success of the National team. I don't expect many people to like that, but that's how it is. So I'm only going to be supportive of change which has as its primary goal the improvement of the LOI (with better players for the national team being a positive side effect). Any idea to break up the top tier of domestic football and put it back together only with a view to improving the role it plays in producing players for the national team is going to run into opposition from LOI fans (which isn't to say it wouldn't happen).

If the first part of your idea happened, I can see two problems. First, when not involved in europa league games, where would these teams be playing in? The LOI? Are you in favour of just giving a bucketload of cash to carefully selected teams to ensure their yearly qualification into Europe, and nothing for the rest? Secondly, just because we'd have better teams doesn't mean they'd all have Irish players. To ensure competitiveness in Europe while maintaining a theme of developing players is very difficult. A look at Sunderland's squad tells me that just over half are not English, while 16 of Everton's squad are not English, and at fulham, the number of non-English players is 20/26. I know these are only examples you used, but the point I'm making is that we could very easily fall into the trap of thinking that having a good standard of football in our league means we'll have a good national team. England has been at a loss for years to explain the disappointing performances at the WC and Euros of the players from 'the best league in the world'. Wouldn't the Irish 'super-clubs' similarly be forced into buying non-Irish players to remain competitive?

I think that your second suggestion of the transnational league would have the same problems, except with only 2 teams, the opportunities for young Irish players would be even more limited.

Definitely. The smaller leagues in Europe that are producing the elite sides are doing so with domestic players and resources. No amount of investment will disguise the fact we aren't producing the requisite standard of technical players.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course a simple alternative objective might just be to improve the LOI and make sure its financially viable (mainly by cutting costs rather than increasing wages) but to give up the objective of providing a particularly high quality football product. We could aim at developing better players from a young age and if they go to England in their teens so be it. In due course with England now finally introducing small sided games, a national academy, transferring elite coaching responsibility to the big clubs etc. our players will have to be developed similarly even to preserve our current model.

If some form of cross-border solution was pursued I understand the revenue disparity that would exist so some form of downstream subsidy would have to be in place - possibly necessitating a closed league.

I fully respect your favouring Limerick over Ireland. I've always believed there is no one best way. This mad game pulls on all our hearts in different ways.

I still think Irish players would be favoured simply because they'd now earn a wage that would probably keep them at home but that wage level might not be enough to attract players from abroad. I think the Irish rugby players benefit from a tax break that means they get an income tax rebate if they spend most of their careers in Ireland. It's a tricky issue because you can't prevent EU clubs from hiring EU players. Leave the EU!

I understand that change might not be accepted by many. I'm a traditionalist myself but equally I'm frustrated that Ireland can't offer its public a football product that captures the public imagination.

[Stuttgart88]

Remember this - from 2005?

http://foot.ie/inc/pdf/genesis.pdf

This is what they thought was "possible and a realistic vision of success" in 5 years:

Ranking:
• Top 20’s in the UEFA League rankings
• League clubs are consistently competitive in Europe and competing in the
Champions League group stages

Attendances:
• 1 million per annum with an average 4,000-5,000 per game
• Successful clubs in all major population centres

Facilities:

• Range of 5,000/10,000 all-seater stadia throughout the League
• High quality facilities including corporate hospitality, catering and
conference with the stadia working 7 days a week
• Facilitate the creation of ‘an event’ around game night
• Pitches meet International standard and high quality training facilities

Licensing:
• All clubs adhere to licensing requirements
• Range of high criteria set for participating clubs

Club Management:
• Professional management & administration in clubs with a long-term
planning focus
• Clubs stable, solvent and investing in infrastructure and development
• Clubs managing within their means (Wage/turnover ratio 65% or less)

Media Coverage:
• High profile coverage across all media (TV, Radio, Print, Digital)
• Weekly live and highlights TV coverage of games
• Players recognised and personalities created

Playing Standards:
• League players regularly in International Squad
• All coaches fully qualified
• High quality, competitive football, with full time professional squads

Marketing:
• League is ‘sexy’ and ‘cool’
• High quality branding and marketing, attracting premium sponsors/partners

Pyramid:
• League is the pinnacle of the football pyramid with a clear pathway from
under-age, youth, senior leagues and partnership with all of football
• Young players aspiring to play in the league and the clubs developing their
own talent with successful National underage leagues in place

Community:
• Strong identity between clubs and their communities
• All clubs/schools in the area are attached to their local ‘league’ club
• Club is the focal point for the community it serves

League Management and control:
• Long-term, strategic focus
• Strong, decisive, independent and direct guarantor of excellence
• Detailed participation agreement/contract in place and adhered to

Financial Strength and Stability:
• League generating significant revenues - €5-10m
• Attracting investment form Government, Private Investment
• Top League clubs with annual turnover of €3m+ and financially stable

[Junior]

How much of the gap between the above and reality is a result of......

(a) Poor Management and implementation of the gensis findings by the FAI / Clubs
(b) The economy in general
(c) Genisis talking through its consultancy ***hole!!!

In the last 7 years has the league stoodstill, gone backwards or forwards?

[Stuttgart88]

Can you format text with the strikeout option here?

In absence of that formatting option I have highlighted in bold those areas where better execution / planning / management can make improvements.

Anything else costs money that ain't likely to be found. Of course there's a lot of "chicken and egg" - better sponsors, better product etc. will lead to better turnover, and hence better quality, but which comes first?

Ranking:
• Top 20’s in the UEFA League rankings
• League clubs are consistently competitive in Europe and competing in the
Champions League group stages

Attendances:
• 1 million per annum with an average 4,000-5,000 per game
• Successful clubs in all [ or most] major population centres

Facilities:

• Range of 5,000/10,000 all-seater stadia throughout the League
• High quality facilities including corporate hospitality, catering and
conference with the stadia working 7 days a week
• Facilitate the creation of ‘an event’ around game night
• Pitches meet International standard and high quality training facilities

Licensing:
• All clubs adhere to licensing requirements
• Range of high criteria set for participating clubs

Club Management:
• Professional management & administration in clubs with a long-term
planning focus
• Clubs stable, solvent and investing in infrastructure and development
• Clubs managing within their means (Wage/turnover ratio 65% or less)

Media Coverage:
• High profile coverage across all media (TV, Radio, Print, Digital)
• Weekly live and highlights TV coverage of games
• Players recognised and personalities created

Playing Standards:
• League players regularly in International Squad
• All coaches fully qualified
• High[er] quality, competitive football, with full time professional squads

Marketing:
• League is ‘sexy’ and ‘cool’
• High[er] quality branding and marketing, attracting premium [better] sponsors/partners

Pyramid:
• League is the pinnacle of the football pyramid with a clear pathway from
under-age, youth, senior leagues and partnership with all of football
• Young players aspiring to play in the league and the clubs developing their
own talent with successful National underage leagues in place

Community:
• Strong identity between clubs and their communities
• All clubs/schools in the area are attached to their local ‘league’ club
• Club is the focal point for the community it serves

League Management and control:
• Long-term, strategic focus
• Strong, decisive, independent and direct guarantor of excellence
• Detailed participation agreement/contract in place and adhered to

Financial Strength and Stability:
• League generating significant revenues - €5-10m
• Attracting investment form Government, Private Investment
• Top League clubs with annual turnover of €3m+ and financially stable

[Stuttgart88]

(c) Genisis talking through its consultancy ***hole!!!

In the last 7 years has the league stoodstill, gone backwards or forwards?

I love the consultant quip.

I think some of the league has gone forwards, much of it backwards.

[SkStu]

Backwards. Undoubtedly.

[Acornvilla]

Were eh.. 7 years closer to a solution.