O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team [Archive] - Page 8

Gather round

14/04/2008, 1:44 PM

I'd question your use of the word "many" as I think the number of posters in this thread against an United Ireland team easily outnumber those for. And it's two teams that would be "abolished" - if that's the appropriate word.

There also seems to be an assumption throughout this thread that it's only ROI fans that would be supportive of an United Ireland team. Is this really the case?

OK, replace 'many' with 'some'. It would be reasonable to answer the argument even if only one person was making it.

Abolished is exactly what would happen to our team to necessitate it being replaced by another.

Anyone who wants it to be abolished, by definition isn't a NI fan.

yes definitley, ive yet to hear any fans saying they wouldnt support it

Apart from the RoI fans on this thread, you mean?

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 1:46 PM

i dont see why we would be giving up our flag or anthem :confused:

Are you living in cloud cuckoo land?:confused:

youngirish

14/04/2008, 1:56 PM

I'm not youngirish so what he thinks has nothing to do with what I think.
Just to clarify. Not Brazil invented that bit about the Germans, Dutch and Danish.

CvilleRovers

14/04/2008, 1:58 PM

Are you living in cloud cuckoo land?:confused:

no in ireland pal, just like linfield

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 2:00 PM

Just to clarify. Not Brazil invented that bit about the Germans, Dutch and Danish.

Now, now youngirish - it was you who said:

"No it's a song commemorating the victory of the international alliance under William of Orange over the Irish Catholics in the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

as_i_say

14/04/2008, 2:02 PM

Right back at ye, 'pal'. I'm an Irish fan; I'm responding to a thread on which many are suggesting an Irish team gets abolished. Quip about the 'occupied six' and you can expect 'cartoon Provo halfwit' in reply. It's also obsessive about your identity- and others'.

And spare us the false outrage. Yours, not disgusted, BT15.

As said before, I'm not obsessed about my identity, I don't need to be. Did you not read my last post or something? And no I'm not outraged-your muck spouting trash means nothing to me.

youngirish

14/04/2008, 2:04 PM

Now, now youngirish - it was you who said:

"No it's a song commemorating the victory of the international alliance under William of Orange over the Irish Catholics in the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

True my man but how did you get from that to 'the Orange on the ROI flag represents the Dutch, Germans and Danish'? Surely a giant and very illogical step to make.

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 2:05 PM

no in ireland pal, just like linfield

Well, there's a coincidence.

I live in Ireland too - pal!

Not sure what Linfield FC have to do with the discussion tho.:confused:

The flag, and anthem, of the Irish Republic is not, has never been, and never will be, my national flag and anthem.

True my man but how did you get from that to 'the Orange on the ROI flag represents the Dutch, Germans and Danish'? Surely a giant and very illogical step to make.

Now you're losing the plot youngirish.

What I said was:

"I'm just curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island"

This was after you posted:

"I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

You are showing some alarming inconsistencies in your arguments.

Gather round

14/04/2008, 2:14 PM

As said before, I'm not obsessed about my identity, I don't need to be. Did you not read my last post or something? And no I'm not outraged-your muck spouting trash means nothing to me.

If you think hundreds of thousands of your fellow Irish live in an 'occupied' country- and, by implication, that many of them are occupiers- then actually you are obsessed by your identity, and theirs. Why not just accept we're all Irish and no-one is occupying anything unfairly, as aother posters have suggested?

You're pretending to be outraged, claiming my reply was disgusting. I mean, what do you expect, with digs about the occupied six?

But like I said, if all this is boring you, goodbye.

ifk101

14/04/2008, 2:19 PM

Do you feel that the majority of attendees at Republic Of Ireland matches would be in favour of a, so called, United Ireland team?

I think the majority of ROI would consider it but their support of an United Ireland team would be conditioned by how favourable NI's support would be of such a move. As NI fans aren't supportive of an United Ireland, I think the majority of ROI fans would be against any moves to merge the two sides. But that's my opinion and I could easily be far of the mark with it.

youngirish

14/04/2008, 2:23 PM

Now you're losing the plot youngirish.

What I said was:

"I'm just curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island"

This was after you posted:

"I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

You are showing some alarming inconsistencies in your arguments.
The inconsistency is unfortunately with you my friend. I still don't see how you can jump from a statement about the majority of the Coalitions forces at the Battle of the Boyne being Dutch, Danish and German (this is historical fact btw and not my opinion) to me stating that the orange on our flag was representative off them and not Protestant Irish people.

I'll explain it to you. The orange on our flag is used to represent the Protestant Irish who take orange from the colours of William of Orange. This doesn't mean that singing The Sash is ok in the present political climate. Let it go. The battle was 318 years ago.

Supreme feet

14/04/2008, 2:26 PM

I think the majority of ROI would consider it but their support of an United Ireland team would be conditioned by how favourable NI's support would be of such a move. As NI fans aren't supportive of an United Ireland, I think the majority of ROI fans would be against any moves to merge the two sides. But that's my opinion and I could easily be far of the mark with it.

I would agree with the above. The separate identity of the two teams, and particularly, the two sets of fans, is seemingly irreconcilable. Every contentious debate here between interests of ROI and NI (Darron Gibson, United Ireland team, etc) seems to descend into a chaotic, infuriating and long-winded political debate. I wonder how fans of Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Slovenia and Croatia feel?!!

janeymac

14/04/2008, 2:26 PM

I'm perfectly calm; you are deliberately making this up; it isn't mentioned in the agreement (source http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=199&docID=2931), nor in the budget which I've already quoted. 0.25% of the sum originally quoted to improve Derry airport to benefit travellers to Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan is hardly massive gift to NI- rather it's a joint investment in mutually beneficial facilities, which would of course be much cheaper than building a new airport on your side of the border.

Pal, I'm not making this up :D And by the way, I think its rather sensible of the British and Irish Gov. not to be throwing money down the toilet, but pooling resources, don't you? Oh and the completed Derry City Airport was 50% British, 50% Irish (as in ROI) money.

From the Dept. of Finance who usually talk about money down here!

The British and Irish Governments agreed at St Andrews on the importance of the economic dimension of the peace process. There is agreement on the need to focus on key drivers of future economic productivity and competitiveness.

The Irish Government has made available further funding of €580million (�400 million). This is in addition to the substantially increased allocation for the revised Investment Strategy for Northern Ireland provided by the Chancellor. This will fund an unprecedented package of infrastructure investment, including a major new roads programme to provide dual carriageway standard on routes within Northern Ireland serving the North West Gateway of Letterkenny/Derry and on the eastern seaboard corridor from Belfast to Larne.

This will promote economic prosperity and development in Northern Ireland, as well as benefit the island as a whole.
The Irish Government has also confirmed its willingness to agree with the new Executive substantial investment in North/South co-operation through opening up on an all-island basis of development funding in a range of areas as set out in the National Development Plan 2007-2013. This will be additional to existing planned projects and the contribution to the enhanced roads programme.

The Irish Government’s contribution will be made in the context of agreement with the restored Northern Ireland Executive.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

CvilleRovers

14/04/2008, 2:28 PM

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 2:30 PM

I'll explain it to you. The orange on our flag is used to represent the Protestant Irish who take orange from the colours of William of Orange. This doesn't mean that singing The Sash is ok in the present political climate. Let it go. The battle was 318 years ago.

Good - we got there in the end.:D

So - the orange in the national flag of the Irish Republic is directly related to William Of Orange, and the significance of him in shaping Irish history.

As I said many posts ago, The Sash is about as relevant at a football match as The Fields Of Athenry.

Without any doubt, The Sash, and what it represents, is a significant part of Irish cultural/historical identity.

So much so, that orange forms part of the national flag of the Irish Republic.

janeymac

14/04/2008, 2:40 PM

I've explained repeatedly above why I don't think it's surprising. Clearly you disagree, but I'm confident I'm representative of NI fans on this one. BTW I also explained why Ulster rugby's crowds over the last decade make it unnecessary for them to have a much larger stadium.

I'm very confident that you are representative of NI football fans - I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either.

As I've explained above, the IFA is unrepresentative of NI supporters who have rejected the maze site by huge majority. I expect DUP politicians to agree with us, partly as an understandable response to their constituents and public opinion, partly also due to their politicking with Sinn Fein on the museum to the struggle issue.

Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?

That's right, the NI supporters- who clearly number considerably more than 20,000, as you personally seem to be arguing above- will get their way in not having their team abolished. No reasonable person could argue otherwise. Contrary to your implication, the rest of their countrymen aren't losing anything.

20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

youngirish

14/04/2008, 2:46 PM

As I said many posts ago, The Sash is about as relevant at a football match as The Fields Of Athenry.

Without any doubt, The Sash, and what it represents, is a significant part of Irish cultural/historical identity.

I would compare it more closely in what it represents to me as an Irish Nationalist to how I think a song such as the Belfast Brigade would feel to Unionists. After all both are glorifying wars and conflict between the two communites.

If you believe Fields of Athenry to be in this same bracket you missed the boat to impartiality a long time ago.

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 3:08 PM

I would compare it more closely in what it represents to me as an Irish Nationalist to how I think a song such as the Belfast Brigade would feel to Unionists. After all, both are glorifying wars and conflict between the two communites.

If you believe Fields of Athenry to be in this same bracket you missed the boat to impartiality a long time ago.

In the same bracket in that both are culturally/historically significant on this island. To many people, events 300 odd years ago are significant because they secured their civil and religious liberties on this island - one of those liberties being the right to identify as they wish, without someone else telling them they are misguided, wrong, making it up etc.

I don't get all indignant about a song which talks of rebellion against the Crown - if it is an Irish nationalist song, then you will clearly see how it might be divisive.

It doesn't bother me - of no real relevance in my day to day life.

You see, you (nor I) can have it both ways.

By the way, did you know that the battlecry of the Belfast Brigade was - I kid you not - "No Surrender"?:eek:

Gather round

14/04/2008, 3:14 PM

Pal, I'm not making this up :D And by the way, I think its rather sensible of the British and Irish Gov. not to be throwing money down the toilet, but pooling resources, don't you? Oh and the completed Derry City Airport was 50% British, 50% Irish (as in ROI) money

You are making it up. You threw in a figure of €4 billion, but despite repeated prompting haven't offered any evidence for it.

From the Dept. of Finance who usually talk about money down here!

Which country's departments of finance and the taoiseach do you think I was quoting from above?

I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either

You'd be wrong, not for the first time on this thread. The NI football team clearly has a support much larger than the average or even maximum crowd- not everyone goes to every- or even any- game, many who watch on TV or follow games through other media are still fans. Those media give the team widespread coverage, which they wouldn't if there were only a dwindling few thousand fans. You could equally and pointlessly argue that the RoI's total support grew in recent years simply because Croke is bigger than Lansdowne before and after.

Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?

No, it's welcome even if they only and belatedly react to events, rather than arguing for a stadium in Belfast and a saving to the taxpayer as the fans have suggested. But hey, they're arrogant, out of touch, and can't manage basic arithmetic. I can see why you support them.

20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

Not from me, it isn't- don't you actually read what others write? I said between 20,000 and 25,000 was a sensible capacity, not a maximum conceivable attendance. Our support in recent years has varied from less than 7,000 to a sold-out Windsor; if it redeveloped, or a new build, held 25,000, I wouldn't be surprised if it still fluctuated depending on form, opposition and other factors like weather. As it always has. These figures are lower than the RoI, I readily accept, but comparable to many similar sized and larger countries throughout Europe. For example- 4,000 watched our game in Estonia, and about 5,000 last time we were in Switzerland. Even in competition games, only 12,000 watched our visit to Vienna in 2005. And I well remember watching you play Wales in Cardiff on a freezing night in 1997, less than 8,000 there.
I think we could regularly manage 20-25,000, but for a one-off game 50,000 might demand tickets. They'll be disappointed, such is life.

Drumcondra 69er

14/04/2008, 3:22 PM

I don't get all indignant about a song which talks of rebellion against the Crown - if it is an Irish nationalist song, then you will clearly see how it might be divisive.

:

Oh come on!! It talks of rebelling against the crown in the context of stealing corn (which was being shamefully exported out of the country by the empire while it's Irish subjects starved) from a landlord to feed the subject's child, it can hardly be described as a rebel song ffs.....

There's plenty of songs reagarding battles and uprisings that can be compared to the sash (altough they don't tend to be sung at the football) but the fields of atherny is a famine song, nothing more.

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 3:41 PM

Oh come on!! It talks of rebelling against the crown in the context of stealing corn (which was being shamefully exported out of the country by the empire while it's Irish subjects starved) from a landlord to feed the subject's child, it can hardly be described as a rebel song ffs.....

There's plenty of songs reagarding battles and uprisings that can be compared to the sash (altough they don't tend to be sung at the football) but the fields of atherny is a famine song, nothing more.

Like I said, I have no problem with The Fields Of Athenry. Nice piece of music, as it happens.

It is a cultural/historical song - just like The Sash is.

Curious tho - what's the famine and the empire got to do with football?

youngirish

14/04/2008, 3:47 PM

In the same bracket in that both are culturally/historically significant on this island. To many people, events 300 odd years ago are significant because they secured their civil and religious liberties on this island - one of those liberties being the right to identify as they wish, without someone else telling them they are misguided, wrong, making it up etc.

C'mon NB William of Orange was hardly a promoter of civil or religious liberties when he helped re-establish and promote a system whereby the vast majority of the indigineous population of the island were effectively denied these rights because of his actions. Instead they were to be dominated and controlled by the relatively sparse minority for their own benefit.

In modern terms look at him as similar to Pieter Botha in South Africa though I'll agree that modern comparisons are not always accurate when describing people's actions in the distant past for a number of reasons. However he was certainly no Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi. Of this I'm sure. I think you need to read a few more impartial history books to be honest and not only the ones approved by the Stormont Government Educational Authority pre 1973.

I agree it's ironic that the Belfast Brigade's motto was no surrender. Says a lot about how ludicrous the entire situation can look from the outside sometimes.

Drumcondra 69er

14/04/2008, 3:57 PM

Like I said, I have no problem with The Fields Of Athenry. Nice piece of music, as it happens.

It is a cultural/historical song - just like The Sash is.

Curious tho - what's the famine and the empire got to do with football?

I'd consider a song glorifying a military battle (not that there's anything wrong with that, we've written plenty) a different facet of culture then one regarding the famine, it's a ludicrous comparison. Your implication was that it was a rebel song because of one line about rebelling against 'the famine and the crown'. Plainly it isn't.

Does a song have to be about football to be sung at a match now? Why did Liverpool fans sing non football related Beatles songs in the 60's? Why sing 'Abide with me' before the cup final? Stadia would be pretty quiet (quieter?) if the only songs allowed had something to do with football......

We sing it coz it's a good tune and has a rousing chorus that everybody knows. And it sounds great being sung by 40,000 plus.....

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 4:07 PM

I can't remember the last time I heard anyone sing "The Sash" at an NI football game, home or away. It's so last (17th?) Century as to be utterly irrelevant...:rolleyes:

I'm very confident that you are representative of NI football fans - I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either.

Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?

20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

Janeymac,
You seem to be determined to tell us what size our support is/should be and by extrapolation, what ideal size any new football stadium should be. As evidence, you cite inter alia the IFA CEO's lobbying for the Maze, the attendance at an Ulster rugby Final in 1999 and GAA crowds.

No harm, but you clearly don't know the first thing you're talking about here.
Under its CEO, Howard Wells, the official IFA view is one of support for the 44k Maze. However, Wells is effectively a Government employee (salary paid by DCAL), who wants a stadium on his CV, for his next job, regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the IFA. Meanwhile, other IFA figures are keeping stumm, since that organisation is potless, there is no alternative to the Maze in sight, and the Maze may be useful as a bargaining tool in our contractual dispute with Linfield over Windsor.
However, I am increasingly confident that the Maze will NOT be built, in which case we're back to square one. At which point, the overwhelming majority of NI fans feel a stadium in Belfast of around 25k capacity (with the otion to expand if demand justifies) is the ideal solution for the near/medium term. Personally, I'd like to see something bigger, but I am happy to go along with the consensus of my fellow NI fans.
Insofar as you have an interest in the matter, you might be advised to do the same.

P.S. For all that Ulster attracted 50k to Lansdowne in 1999 (including me), the simple fact is that when they recently revamped Ravenhill, they actually reduced the overall capacity to around 12,500, in order to accommodate corporate facilities (Exec.Boxes etc).
They therefore feel that this is adequate for all but two or three Heineken Cup matches per year - assuming they continue to qualify for it.
Their support for the Maze was purely because they were dependant upon a Government grant to refurbish Ravenhill, so didn't want to antagonise them and jeopardise the grant. Unofficially, the Ulster Blazers couldn't care less about the Maze. And Ulster rugby fans are actively opposed - in so far as anyone can gauge.

P.P.S. Since theirs is an entirely different "constituency" from football's, GAA crowds in Ulster are utterly irrelevant to the debate as to what size an NI football stadium should be.

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 4:29 PM

C'mon NB William of Orange was hardly a promoter of civil or religious liberties when he helped re-establish and promote a system whereby the vast majority of the indigineous population of the island were effectively denied these rights because of his actions. Instead they were to be dominated and controlled by the relatively sparse majority for their own benefit.

In modern terms look at him as similar to Pieter Botha in South Africa though I'll agree that modern comparisons are not always accurate when describing people's actions in the distant past for a number of reasons. However he was certainly no Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi. Of this I'm sure. I think you need to read a few more impartial history books to be honest and not only the ones approved by the Stormont Government Educational Authority pre 1973.

I agree it's ironic that the Belfast Brigade's motto was no surrender. Says a lot about how ludicrous the entire situation can look from the outside sometimes.

Well, there are differing viewpoints as to the historical context of what went on over 300 years ago.

What's for sure is that, for some people, those events are of enormous historical andcultural significance.

Indeed, so significant that "Orangeism" is represented on the national flag of the Irish Republic.

I care little for 300 year old battles - or long gone famines.

My battle is to ensure my family is safe and sound, and that I do what's best for them by way of their future.

On your last point, I find the anomilies of irish history/culture to be quite interesting!

For example, how many of those who would like to do unspeakable things to The Pope, know and appreciate that King Billy's ranks at The Boyne were swollen by devotees of the Catholic Church, complete with Papal flags?

How many of those who pledge allegiance to the Ulster Banner know the history of the Red Hand?

I often wonder.

When we begin to respect the cultural differences, and differences of identity, of the people who share this island, we'll be a long way down the road to ending division.

We are not "all the same".

Two peoples, equally proud of our identity - neither of which can be defeated into giving their identity up.

The challenge is, can we find a peace to live together with that acceptance -without denigrating everything the other believes in in terms of their, heartfelt, identity?

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 4:35 PM

I'd consider a song glorifying a military battle (not that there's anything wrong with that, we've written plenty) a different facet of culture then one regarding the famine, it's a ludicrous comparison. Your implication was that it was a rebel song because of one line about rebelling against 'the famine and the crown'. Plainly it isn't.

Does a song have to be about football to be sung at a match now? Why did Liverpool fans sing non football related Beatles songs in the 60's? Why sing 'Abide with me' before the cup final? Stadia would be pretty quiet (quieter?) if the only songs allowed had something to do with football......

We sing it coz it's a good tune and has a rousing chorus that everybody knows. And it sounds great being sung by 40,000 plus.....

I don't know of one NI fan who gives a stuff about TFOA being sung at ROI games - even with an "Up the RA" add on. It's nothing whatever to do with us or our support.
As for The Sash, if a few NI fans got p issed in a pub in Cardiff and started singing it, that is regrettable, but still hardly relevant to the debate, since it hasn't (to my knowledge) been sung at an NI games for many years.
And as for making some sort of comparison between the two songs, in order to prove some sort of point, that is utterly silly, and no addition whatever to this thread.
If you've got issues over this sort of thing, why don't you take them to a more appropriate forum, such as Slugger O'Toole. Or your nearest Primary School playground...

When we begin to respect the cultural differences, and differences of identity, of the people who share this island, we'll be a long way down the road to ending division.

We are not "all the same".

Two peoples, equally proud of our identity - neither of which han be defeated into giving their identity up.

The challenge is, can we find a peace to live together with that acceptance -without denigrating everything the other believes in in terms of identity?

Quite. But in the meantime, I'm rather more concerned about what we (NI) can do to improve our away record for the WC2010 Qualifying games ahead.

After all, if anything is clear from this whole thread, it is that Ireland currently has not one but two international football teams, a situation which is not going to change anytime soon.

And the sooner everyone in Ireland accepts that and gets back to supporting his/her own team, the better.

janeymac

14/04/2008, 4:42 PM

You are making it up. You threw in a figure of �4 billion, but despite repeated prompting haven't offered any evidence for it.

Which country's departments of finance and the taoiseach do you think I was quoting from above?

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished. Have they finished upgrading the road from Belfast to Larne recently? When they have you can thank us :)

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach.

Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

You'd be wrong, not for the first time on this thread. The NI football team clearly has a support much larger than the average or even maximum crowd- not everyone goes to every- or even any- game, many who watch on TV or follow games through other media are still fans. Those media give the team widespread coverage, which they wouldn't if there were only a dwindling few thousand fans. You could equally and pointlessly argue that the RoI's total support grew in recent years simply because Croke is bigger than Lansdowne before and after.

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

No, it's welcome even if they only and belatedly react to events, rather than arguing for a stadium in Belfast and a saving to the taxpayer as the fans have suggested. But hey, they're arrogant, out of touch, and can't manage basic arithmetic. I can see why you support them.

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Not from me, it isn't- don't you actually read what others write? I said between 20,000 and 25,000 was a sensible capacity, not a maximum conceivable attendance. Our support in recent years has varied from less than 7,000 to a sold-out Windsor; if it redeveloped, or a new build, held 25,000, I wouldn't be surprised if it still fluctuated depending on form, opposition and other factors like weather. As it always has. These figures are lower than the RoI, I readily accept, but comparable to many similar sized and larger countries throughout Europe. For example- 4,000 watched our game in Estonia, and about 5,000 last time we were in Switzerland. Even in competition games, only 12,000 watched our visit to Vienna in 2005. And I well remember watching you play Wales in Cardiff on a freezing night in 1997, less than 8,000 there.
I think we could regularly manage 20-25,000, but for a one-off game 50,000 might demand tickets. They'll be disappointed, such is life.

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 4:44 PM

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 4:47 PM

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

Ok, let's try it this way. You decide what size our stadium should be, and we tell you where to stick it? :rolleyes:

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 4:49 PM

Quite. But in the meantime, I'm rather more concerned about what we (NI) can do to improve our away record for the WC2010 Qualifying games ahead.

FFS EG, lay off the difficult questions, will you.:D

janeymac

14/04/2008, 4:54 PM

Janeymac,
You seem to be determined to tell us what size our support is/should be and by extrapolation, what ideal size any new football stadium should be. As evidence, you cite inter alia the IFA CEO's lobbying for the Maze, the attendance at an Ulster rugby Final in 1999 and GAA crowds.

No harm, but you clearly don't know the first thing you're talking about here.
Under its CEO, Howard Wells, the official IFA view is one of support for the 44k Maze. However, Wells is effectively a Government employee (salary paid by DCAL), who wants a stadium on his CV, for his next job, regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the IFA. Meanwhile, other IFA figures are keeping stumm, since that organisation is potless, there is no alternative to the Maze in sight, and the Maze may be useful as a bargaining tool in our contractual dispute with Linfield over Windsor.
However, I am increasingly confident that the Maze will NOT be built, in which case we're back to square one. At which point, the overwhelming majority of NI fans feel a stadium in Belfast of around 25k capacity (with the otion to expand if demand justifies) is the ideal solution for the near/medium term. Personally, I'd like to see something bigger, but I am happy to go along with the consensus of my fellow NI fans.
Insofar as you have an interest in the matter, you might be advised to do the same.

P.S. For all that Ulster attracted 50k to Lansdowne in 1999 (including me), the simple fact is that when they recently revamped Ravenhill, they actually reduced the overall capacity to around 12,500, in order to accommodate corporate facilities (Exec.Boxes etc).
They therefore feel that this is adequate for all but two or three Heineken Cup matches per year - assuming they continue to qualify for it.
Their support for the Maze was purely because they were dependant upon a Government grant to refurbish Ravenhill, so didn't want to antagonise them and jeopardise the grant. Unofficially, the Ulster Blazers couldn't care less about the Maze. And Ulster rugby fans are actively opposed - in so far as anyone can gauge.

P.P.S. Since theirs is an entirely different "constituency" from football's, GAA crowds in Ulster are utterly irrelevant to the debate as to what size an NI football stadium should be.

First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! And I'm pretty sure the IRFU would have preferred to develop Lansdowne on their own and hire it out to the FAI - but the Irish Gov. wouldn't have been so generous. Thats life! Ulster Rugby always have access to Lansdowne when they need it, so its not such a big trauma when they need a bigger ground.

Ulster Rugby would have increased their capacity if they could have - its just they don't have the space and can't get the planning permission. As for corporate facilities - they need to generate cash if they want to keep good players. As for Lansdowne Road - most fans would say its too small now - but hey, what do fans know?

Ok, let's try it this way. You decide what size our stadium should be, and we tell you where to stick it? :rolleyes:

Getting a bit flustered now because someone asks a few questions about OWC support?

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 5:14 PM

[QUOTE=janeymac;920448]First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! /QUOTE]

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, bit The Maze stadium project is not happening - this will be formally announced in the not too distant future.

Big clue in yesterday's news - Tony Whitehead, the most senior adviser involved in the proposed development of the Maze Stadium project has resigned his post.

Now that's soon to be out of the way, the interest of myself and majority of Northern Ireland football fans is to ensure that we get an international football stadium, fitting of our needs (Couldn't care less about the GAA or IRFU, although they should get their fair share of development funding), somewhere in Belfast - our capital city.

Circa 25,000 capacity will do dead on.

janeymac

14/04/2008, 5:26 PM

[quote=janeymac;920448]First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! /QUOTE]

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, bit The Maze stadium project is not happening - this will be formally announced in the not too distant future.

Big clue in yesterday's news - Tony Whitehead, the most senior adviser involved in the proposed development of the Maze Stadium project has resigned his post.

Now that's soon to be out of the way, the interest of myself and majority of Northern Ireland football fans is to ensure that we get an international football stadium, fitting of our needs (Couldn't care less about the GAA or IRFU, although they should get their fair share of development funding), somewhere in Belfast - our capital city.

Circa 25,000 capacity will do dead on.

TBH, I don't know whether the Maze is the right place or not (and don't care that much). But at a guess, NI Football are not going to get their own football stadium unless they come up with at least half the cost of the project. So you need a very rich sponsor!

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 5:30 PM

Getting a bit flustered now because someone asks a few questions about OWC support?

Mildly frustrated, perhaps, but flustered? Hardly.

Ask all the questions you like - that's not a problem.

Even offer an opinion, if need be - it's a free world, after all.

In fact, why not tell us what is best for us? After all, you do seem remarkably confident for someone whose knowledge of the situation on the ground is so palpably lacking. Just don't be too surprised if we begin to find it a bit tiresome, and respond with somewhat less than our usual grace and decorum.

After all, it's either that or we tell you what you must do over e.g the re-building of Lansdowne, the renting-out of Croke to "foreign" sports, the Tallaght Stadium or the "Bertiebowl", for instance.

Anyhow, you'll forgive me if I desist from doing so for the moment; you see, I'm off to a Middle-Eastern Political Website, to tell the Jews and Arabs where they're going wrong. I trust I'll receive a warm welcome...:eek:

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 5:34 PM

TBH, I don't know whether the Maze is the right place or not (and don't care that much). But at a guess, NI Football are not going to get their own football stadium unless they come up with at least half the cost of the project. So you need a very rich sponsor!

Time will tell, I guess.

janeymac

14/04/2008, 5:34 PM

Mildly frustrated, perhaps, but flustered? Hardly.

-----

Anyhow, you'll forgive me if I desist from doing so for the moment; you see, I'm off to a Middle-Eastern Political Website, to tell the Jews and Arabs where they're going wrong. I trust I'll receive a warm welcome...:eek:

Just a thought ... this website is football.ie ... I'm not off visiting OWC giving an opinion.

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 5:36 PM

Ulster Rugby would have increased their capacity if they could have - its just they don't have the space and can't get the planning permission. As for corporate facilities - they need to generate cash if they want to keep good players.

UR had a choice. They could increase revenue by increasing the total numbers of spectators they could accommodate, or they could do so by increasing their corporate facilities, but only by reducing the total number of spectators.

They chose the latter. What do you think that tells us about their confidence in their ability to attract larger crowds than at present (currently not much more than 10k average)?

Just a thought ... this website is football.ie ... I'm not off visiting OWC giving an opinion.

This thread is discussing something which directly affects the future of the NI football team. As an NI fan, I am offering my opinion on that, as I'm perfectly entitled to do.

I am not, however, offering my opinion on how the FAI should organise its affairs, never mind telling them how they must do so, as you, an ROI fan, are doing over our affairs.

I wouldn't be so presumptious.

janeymac

14/04/2008, 5:44 PM

UR had a choice. They could increase the total numbers of spectators they could accommodate, or they could increase their corporate facilities, but only by reducing the total number of spectators.

They chose the latter. What do you think that tells us about their confidence in their ability to attract larger crowds than at present (currently not much more than 10k average)?

I actually think that 10,000 on a regular basis is quite good for rugby. Its far better than any League of Ireland game on a Friday night! UR really need to bring in some cash and corporate sponsorship is the easiest way to do it. Its tough - UR are trying to compete with the likes of Toulouse who have an annual budget of over �20m (like all Irish provinces).

Drumcondra 69er

14/04/2008, 5:50 PM

I don't know of one NI fan who gives a stuff about TFOA being sung at ROI games - even with an "Up the RA" add on. It's nothing whatever to do with us or our support.
As for The Sash, if a few NI fans got p issed in a pub in Cardiff and started singing it, that is regrettable, but still hardly relevant to the debate, since it hasn't (to my knowledge) been sung at an NI games for many years.
And as for making some sort of comparison between the two songs, in order to prove some sort of point, that is utterly silly, and no addition whatever to this thread.
If you've got issues over this sort of thing, why don't you take them to a more appropriate forum, such as Slugger O'Toole. Or your nearest Primary School playground...

First off I didn't bring TFOA into this discussion, I merely corrected Not Brazil's inference that it was a rebel song.

Secondly, I didn't make any comparison between the two songs, that was Not Brazil again. I agree it is utterly silly to make a comparison which was my point. Obviously you've not read the thread and instead resorted to a knee jerk response.

Finally, I've no issues over 'this sort of thing' and wonder if, when you've copped yourself on a bit, you'll realise how childish your final jibe makes you look....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

kingdomkerry

14/04/2008, 6:06 PM

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished. Have they finished upgrading the road from Belfast to Larne recently? When they have you can thank us :)

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach.

Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

As well as building your roads, today we gace ye 5,000 of our highly paid jobs in the financial services sector. We are always so 'nice' to everyone up north so its about time a certain community up there was nice back.

Give it a go and we might even build ye a staduium:)

EalingGreen

14/04/2008, 6:10 PM

Finally, I've no issues over 'this sort of thing' and wonder if, when you've copped yourself on a bit, you'll realise how childish your final jibe makes you look....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

No "issues"? Virtually all your recent posts on this thread - #415, #412, #371, #231, #225, #220 - have been about purely political matters, often from past centuries, sometimes even outwith Ireland.

None has had any relevance whatever to NI or ROI football, much less the prospects or otherwise, for a "united" Ireland team.

But if it pleases you, I'll withdraw my "playground" jibe and apologise. :cool:

Drumcondra 69er

14/04/2008, 6:37 PM

No "issues"? Virtually all your recent posts on this thread - #415, #412, #371, #231, #225, #220 - have been about purely political matters, often from past centuries, sometimes even outwith Ireland.

None has had any relevance whatever to NI or ROI football, much less the prospects or otherwise, for a "united" Ireland team.

But if it pleases you, I'll withdraw my "playground" jibe and apologise. :cool:

Neither pleases nor displeases me, just wanted to point out how childish it made you look. But for the sake of peace and quiet I'll accept your apology. And why would having an opinion on certain political matters automatically mean I have any 'issues'. All of my posts have been responses and indeed I jokingly pointed out that the nature of the debate would have been better suited to politics.ie and shortly after gave up with the thread. But it's been kept going so I dipped back in today although it's mainly been about music rather then politics, you're making the mistake of considering TFOA a political song again....;)

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 6:41 PM

First off I didn't bring TFOA into this discussion, I merely corrected Not Brazil's inference that it was a rebel song.

Secondly, I didn't make any comparison between the two songs, that was Not Brazil again. I agree it is utterly silly to make a comparison which was my point. Obviously you've not read the thread and instead resorted to a knee jerk response.

Hang on a wee minute.

I didn't raise the issue of Irish historical/cultural songs.

One of your fellow ROI fans did, by giving out about some Northern Ireland fans singing The Sash (an Irish historical/cultural song) whilst roaming the streets of Cardiff.

On the issue of The Fields Of Athenry, I have stated it to be an Irish historical/cultural song - it includes words of rebellion (against the famine and the Crown), but I whollly accept that it is not a "rebel song" in the more commonly thought of context.

Neither song causes me any concern whatsoever, in wider context.

As well as building your roads, today we gace ye 5,000 of our highly paid jobs in the financial services sector. We are always so 'nice' to everyone up north so its about time a certain community up there was nice back.

Give it a go and we might even build ye a staduium:)

Bertie and Biffo certainly do seem to be about genuinely uniting people.

Why, I even think that Bertie is indulging The Good Doctor:rolleyes: in another, all expenses paid, jolly to The Boyne very soon.

PS. I hope Bertie doesn't remind the Good Doctor that King Billy was a poof - all hell will break loose then:D

geysir

14/04/2008, 6:51 PM

Imagine Northern Ireland fans wanting to engage in a discussion about a proposed demise of their team.:eek:
Amazing.
Imagine the discussion was initiated by your own football legends.:eek:

Drumcondra 69er

14/04/2008, 7:02 PM

Hang on a wee minute.

I didn't raise the issue of Irish historical/cultural songs.

One of your fellow ROI fans did, by giving out about some Northern Ireland fans singing The Sash (an Irish historical/cultural song) whilst roaming the streets of Cardiff.

On the issue of The Fields Of Athenry, I have stated it to be an Irish historical/cultural song - it includes words of rebellion (against the famine and the Crown), but I whollly accept that it is not a "rebel song" in the more commonly thought of context.

Neither song causes me any concern whatsoever, in wider context.

That's fair enough mate, wasn't saying you did (think you brought TFOA into it which is what I said), no beef at this end. <no thumbs up smiley either unfortunately!>:)

Gather round

15/04/2008, 8:00 AM

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished

It isn't giving the amount you claimed, or anything like it, and you can't offer any evidence that it is, despite repeated prompting.

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach. Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!) http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

Thanks for the Irish language/ history/ structure of the Oireachteas lesson.But it isn't giving the amount you claimed, or anything like it, and you can't offer any evidence that it is, despite repeated prompting.

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

You tell me. How is this relevant? We think we need a stadium for about 25,000, and we're confident we'll get it, despite Howard Wells' politicking and your helpful lobbying for the Maze. GAA gets impressive support? Great, good for you.

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Belfast is where the huge majority of the fans want trhe stadium to be (this includes fans who live west of the Bann, btw). I'll recap why: there are no plans to make the Maze site more accessible with a railway or road spur (so almost everyone will have to drive in and out on one-lane farm roads). Similarly, there are no plans to provide any bars, restaurants or facilities comparable to those in the city centre. Such facilities wouldn't be commercially viable- not enough events at the stadium, no passing traffic.

It isn't 'neutral', it's empty, thus the problems above. Given that Lisburn and the Lagan Valley is a strongly unionist area- nationalist parties got about 14% in recent elections- it isn't neutral at all. The workforce in the notional stadium would be predominantly unionist, ditto the neighbours.

NI as a whole remains polarised, so you could argue that nowhere is neutral. But NI fans are in favour in principle of at least two sites in the city centre (Ormeau Park and Maysfield) which are close to and reached from strongly nationalist areas.

We know it's a national stadium (that's planned). What's your point? if the three sports can agree, maybe they'll share it If not, each can make its arrangments. Any of which will cost less than the Maze plan.

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

Like I said, why don't you read what others say instead of throwing around irrelevance and random exclamation marks? I've told you repeatedly why I think 25,000 is a sensible capacity; that with such a capacity, there'll be occasional games with a much higher demand for tickets; that such a capacity and likely crowds compare favourably with many other European countries, if not with the entirely different sport of GAA.