O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team [Archive] - Page 6

youngirish

12/04/2008, 12:55 AM

janeymac

12/04/2008, 1:30 AM

For a country of only 1.5 million I think its a huge achievement that we've managed to qualify for even one WC, never mind three and reaching the QF twice. Our record as the smallest ever country to qualify was only surpassed by Trinidad and Tobago last time round. In contrast the Republic only started to qualify/discover football when Big Jack began recruiting anyone who'd supped a Guinness. Indeed if I enter EG stat mode for a minute it just highlights the reliance you had on British players to gain your success.

'Just because you're born in a stable doesn't mean you're a horse.'
- Duke of Wellington (born in Co. Meath, Ireland) ;)

....

On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.:cool:Must be killing you guys when such Norn Iron heroes speak out and say that they would actually have preferred to be playing for a United Ireland team. *sigh*

Maroon 7

12/04/2008, 2:46 AM

In contrast the Republic only started to qualify/discover football when Big Jack began recruiting anyone who'd supped a Guinness. Indeed if I enter EG stat mode for a minute it just highlights the reliance you had on British players to gain your success.
On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.:cool:

:D

Not only is that daft it is actually pretty offensive but par for course these days it seems. Sadly.

Gather round

12/04/2008, 5:47 AM

Agreed. Id be very suprised if i saw NI qualify for a WC in my lifetime. Ireland on the other hand will always be there and there abouts

You've qualified for one of the last seven international tournaments.

eg, pick your teddy bear out of the corner and calm down, you've had a long day on foot.ie, maybe its time to take a break from the keyboard

Says the man who said goodbye to the thread a few pages back...

About ten people have posted in this thread since page 3. Says it all really

Aye, but feel the quality ;)

Republic of Ireland (British born players/Total squad number)

2002- 11/23

Republic of Ireland squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup 1 Given • 2 Finnan • 3 Harte • 4 Cunningham • 5 Staunton • 6 Roy Keane • 7 McAteer • 8 Holland • 9 Duff • 10 Robbie Keane • 11 Kilbane • 12 Kinsella • 13 Connolly • 14 Breen • 15 Dunne • 16 Kiely • 17 Quinn • 18 G. Kelly • 19 Morrison • 20 O'Brien • 21 Reid • 22 Carsley • 23 A. Kelly • Coach: McCarthy

I stand to be corrected, but didn't Messrs 2, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 all grow up and play all their schoolboy football in England?

]Must be killing you guys when such Norn Iron heroes speak out and say that they would actually have preferred to be playing for a United Ireland team. *sigh*

It's mildly irritating, but as Ealing said above, they aren't representative of the support.

]Interestingly even on the 3rd choice, to Protestants, being Irish was not amongst their selected choices

Year: 2003
Module: Political Attitudes
Variable: IDBRIT - IDNONE
Please say which, if any, of the words on this card describes the way you think of yourself.
Please choose as many or as few as apply.
The following tables show the percentage of respondents identifying with each description.

%
British 49
English 1
European 4
Irish 30
Northern Irish 33
Scottish 1
Ulster 11
Welsh <1
Other answer 1
None of these 1

Interesting but not conclusive. Unless all those identifying as British are simultaneously excluding Irishness/ Northern Irishness/ Ulsterness- I don't think you can conclude that unionists don't feel Irish.

gspain

12/04/2008, 7:18 AM

My mistake - in quickly scanning the record, I didn't notice that you had qualified for the last 16. I think I overlooked it due to your having finished 3rd in your qualifying Group.

Talking of which, NI have won one of their Groups (1982), something which ROI cannot claim. And we've still won more matches in WC Finals...;)

We finished 2nd in all our WC finals groups. We finished ahead of Holand on the drawing of lots in 1990. In 1994 we finished behind Mexico on goals scored but ahead of Italy on direct match result.

Our record in WC final tournamnets is

P 13 W 2 D 8 L 3

Northern Ireland's record is

P 13 W 3 D 5 L 5

I'm sure we'd win on goal difference anyway as I recall you shipping 4 goals a few times and our heaviest defeat was 2-0.

I'm quite happy to accept that NI's record is fantastic for such a small country. I happen to believe ours is pretty good too.

. In contrast the Republic only started to qualify/discover football when Big Jack began recruiting anyone who'd supped a Guinness. Indeed if I enter EG stat mode for a minute it just highlights the reliance you had on British players to gain your success.

We were 20 minutes away from reaching the 1934 WC and missed out on 38 by the odd goal in 11. We finished runners up in our qualifying group in 1950 and actually got an invitation to the finals but didn't accept. We were seconds away from at least aplayoff for 1958 only to be denied by a last gasp goal. We missed on on 1966 by a playoff. We lost out on 1982 thanks to the Belgians bribing a referee (not proven yet as the guys involved were only proven to be bribing referees for Anderlect but he was a total disgrace.). We also reached the last 8 of the European championships in 1964 all BC (before Charlton).

Football was also the biggest partipant sport in the Roi in 1986 when Jack arrived.

As for our British born players well many of the fans on this forum were also born there. We've had huge emigration and the likes of David O'Leary and Paul McGrath greww up in Dublin despite being born in England. Gary Breen grew up in a very Irish family and wore an Irish shirt to school on June 13th 1988. Kevin Kilbane also and is a talented Irish dancer I believe. True we have had the likes of Jason McAteer and Tony Cascarino who were legal under the rules but whose connections to this island are weak but stronger than a Trevor Wood or Maik Taylor.

ifk101

12/04/2008, 8:30 AM

We've also qualified for the European Championships, has NI done that?

Our underage record is excellent as well if you ask me. Has NI ever won a European Championship at underage level? We've done it twice. :)

Anyways I think both sides have achieved a lot in international football so why don't we just leave it at that as it's clear we've achieved a lot more. :D

I stand to be corrected, but didn't Messrs 2, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 all grow up and play all their schoolboy football in England?

Steve Finnan was born in Limerick but moved to the UK at a very young age. But yes all of those players grew up in the UK.

geysir

12/04/2008, 8:39 AM

Interesting but not conclusive. Unless all those identifying as British are simultaneously excluding Irishness/ Northern Irishness/ Ulsterness- I don't think you can conclude that unionists don't feel Irish.

Most of the entire quote you attributed to me is not something I wrote or the part of a survey I even referred to.

There are plenty of surveys down through the years all layed out in the NI Life and Times survey (and following professional standards of survey criteria).
They are not absolute proof but dandering down the different questions would make you wonder.
And how proud are you of being Irish, or do you not see yourself as Irish at all?
55% Protestants - not Irish at all
13% not proud or not very proud

The National identity answers are interesting and cross them over with the 2nd choice and 3rd choice descriptions.

Feeling Irish, Irish identity or even 'Irish pride' is well down the list and those surveys 'appear' to support why Unionists would want to have their separate team even in the event of political unity with the rest of the Island.

Norn Iron

12/04/2008, 9:52 AM

lets go back to the nearest one 2002. Name the brit 11 born?

I will acknowledge you made big strides post Jack Charlton in only having half your squad born in the UK for 2002 WC.;) Certainly compared to the heady days of Italia 90 when 9 of the players who played against England were from the UK.

Must be killing you guys when such Norn Iron heroes speak out and say that they would actually have preferred to be playing for a United Ireland team. *sigh*

Not at all. They're entitled to their opinion no matter how pointless it is. O'Neill and Jennings will always remain OWC legends in my mind.

We were 20 minutes away from reaching the 1934 WC and missed out on 38 by the odd goal in 11. We finished runners up in our qualifying group in 1950 and actually got an invitation to the finals but didn't accept. We were seconds away from at least aplayoff for 1958 only to be denied by a last gasp goal. We missed on on 1966 by a playoff. We lost out on 1982 thanks to the Belgians bribing a referee (not proven yet as the guys involved were only proven to be bribing referees for Anderlect but he was a total disgrace.). We also reached the last 8 of the European championships in 1964 all BC (before Charlton).

Football was also the biggest partipant sport in the Roi in 1986 when Jack arrived.

Would you have qualified for 88,90,94 if Big Jack hadnt started using the granny rule?

We've also qualified for the European Championships, has NI done that?

No but as mentioning near misses is in vogue we would have qualified for Euro 84 if todays head to head format was used as we beat the Germans home and away finishing level on points. Although beating those perennial pain in the arses Albania away from home would have helped (a similar fate in our last game which stopped us qualify for WC66).:(

janeymac

12/04/2008, 10:22 AM

I will acknowledge you made big strides post Jack Charlton in only having half your squad born in the UK for 2002 WC.;) Certainly compared to the heady days of Italia 90 when 9 of the players who played against England were from the UK.

Big strides in your mind :D - you really are unable to get it the 'born' in a stable etc. etc. bit are you. Tell me this, do you know anyone who is a NI supporter with kids who is living in England. Would he be encouraging their kid to support England? Who do you think he would want his kid to play for if he had a kid that was any good?

Not at all. They're entitled to their opinion no matter how pointless it is. O'Neill and Jennings will always remain OWC legends in my mind.So why are you on here banging on this thread about how much better Norn Iron did at WCs than us, when it would seem that two of Norn Iron's 'heroes' would have preferred to have being playing with the next door neighbours! btw, nice of you to confirm that they are entitled to their opinion - as if we needed to know that!

Would you have qualified for 88,90,94 if Big Jack hadnt started using the granny rule?You seem to have a problem with the granny rule which I'm having a problem figuring out why?

Is it because YOU decided they are English so should declare for England?

No but as mentioning near misses is in vogue we would have qualified for Euro 84 if todays head to head format was used as we beat the Germans home and away finishing level on points. Although beating those perennial pain in the arses Albania away from home would have helped (a similar fate in our last game which stopped us qualify for WC66).:(All rubbish - nearly was never there.

geysir

12/04/2008, 10:51 AM

I wouldn't begrudge NI their successes with good teams and other times punching above their weight.

I'd say our head to head record demonstrates the superior class of the Republic over the last 30 years as supported by our FIFA average rank of 27.
1978 - 2008
Competitive Qualifier games
played 8 . Republic win 3: draws 4 : lost 1.
and when we win, we win good :)

Lionel Ritchie

12/04/2008, 10:51 AM

I will acknowledge you made big strides post Jack Charlton in only having half your squad born in the UK for 2002 WC.;) Certainly compared to the heady days of Italia 90 when 9 of the players who played against England were from the UK. ...can't believe I'm taking your bait but just for a laugh and for illustrative purposes stand up at the top of the class and name them off there like a good lad. :rolleyes:

Gather round

12/04/2008, 11:17 AM

Most of the entire quote you attributed to me is not something I wrote or the part of a survey I even referred to

Whoops. Apologies for that. I'm nipping back up the page to correct the formatting.

...can't believe I'm taking your bait but just for a laugh and for illustrative purposes stand up at the top of the class and name them off there like a good lad. :rolleyes:

Here's the team for your game v England at WC 1990:

RoI: Bonner - Morris, Staunton, McCarthy (c), Moran - McGrath, Houghton, Townsend, Aldridge (65 McLoughlin) - Cascarino, Sheedy.

(My italics)

I make that eight who grew up/ played schools football in Britain, not nine as claimed.

janeymac

12/04/2008, 11:51 AM

We are trying to promote the game, we are being successful and we do want a new National Stadium. Our problem is that the IFA (like the FA, SFA FAW and FAI) has nowhere nearly enough money to build a new stadium on our own. However, unlike those other Associations, we are unable to secure the equivalent Governmental assistance which has seen Wembley/Hampden/Millennium/Lansdowne re-built.
Instead, our political Lords and Masters in Whitehall determined, purely for political reasons, that we should be forced into the wrong stadium in the wrong location (Maze).
Therefore, if we are to overturn that, we have to be modest in our demands - inexpensive, 25-30k - otherwise the response from the backers of the Maze will ask why we want more, when recent crowds have often been so much lower. (They are only talking about 42k capacity for the Maze because the GAA demanded it)

You really are trying to avoid the point I'm making here.

GAA sports at inter-county level (followed mainly by nationalist community in NI - 50% pop. 0.5 million) can on a regular basis get crowds of 40k+. Ulster GAA have asked to use Croke Park for some of their bigger matches - Tyrone v. Armagh (who would meeting a couple of times a year) which has a capacity of 80K. Croke Park as well as being the national stadium also caters for Leinster games. Ulster GAA need a stadium that can take 40k+ - might be the reason the 'GAA demanded' it and it is public money you are talking about here.

Association Football which is cross community :) (potential market 1m+ potential) is deemed to be only able to attract 20,000 if the team is doing well.

Do you not think there is something odd about this?

Unlike the IFA, the FA, SFA FAW, FAI, GAA & IRFU, all had to come up with matching funding (the FAI sold its HQ in Merrion Sq). The IFA have been offered a FREE STADIUM (South of England tax payers are paying for it) and you are still moaning!

Don't want to get side-tracked onto Welsh football/rugby. Suffice it to say, just ask anyone who knows the true situation in Wales, who isn't either a football-hating egg chaser or someone who has swallowed the WRFU spin, and they will tell you that football in Wales is still bigger than rugby, by every measure, except international crowds on half a dozen occasions a year. And that has always been the case, btwWell, I'm going to the Leinster v. Munster game this evening - its a sell out at 18k. If Lansdowne was ready, it would probably fill that. 10 years ago at this fixture there would have been three men and a dog! Oh and rugby isn't as popular as Gaelic or Football down here!

There appears presently to be nothing preventing any NI youngster - Prod, RC or Athiest - from opting for ROI (for whatever motive). So how exactly are we "holding them back"? :confused:Hasn't had a chance to kick-in yet - give it another year or two or three ! NI fooball seemed to take Gibson's 'defection' rather badly! It probably needs time to recover from that shock.

In fact, if you think about it, there is absolutely nothing to stop such a kid, after the requisite three years residence in Manchester or Glasgow, from representing England or Scotland - both of whom offer a much better chance of career advancement than either Irish team.I'm glad the penny is beginning to drop that this just might happen!

But at the risk of straying (temporarily, I hope) from discussing a combined team to the issue of Eligibility for the two separate teams, I would not feel in the slightest bit guilty.

That is because I don't actually see which international team you represent as being a matter of "choice", any more than you can "choose" where you were born! The whole point about international football, as opposed to club football, is that you cannot just "pick and choose" who you play for.

This should especially be so (imo), to prevent mercenary considerations (money) prevailing over national pride when representing your country. Respecting the identity of nationalist kids in NI might go a long way to holding onto their affiliations. For instance, with regard to preventing the No Surrender chants - anything suggest a very simple solution - use Danny Boy as your anthem! I'm sure the Queen would be very pleased if it helped her subjects to get on better together!

For myself, even if the best players from ROI or GB were suddenly made eligible for NI, so that we were guaranteed to qualify for every tournament, I would much rather do without, thanks very much, since it would no longer be "my" team, or "Our Wee Country".What is this thing that you have to 'own' everything on your terms.

P.S. If ypou look at our record of qualifying for World Cup Finals, it is every bit as good as ROI's - arguably better, since we have also made it to the last 8 (1958) and last 12 (1982).I don't view NI as competition. Always happy to see NI do well.

P.P.S. David Healy was formerly a talented kid in the MU Academy, who was just coming up to 23 when ROI went to Japan/Korea in 2002. I can guarantee you that had Mick McCarthy offered him a place on the plane, there would have been zero chance of his ever accepting. Which is precisely that sort of dedication which transforms him from a journeyman for his club to a star for his country. I don't ever want to see that removed from international football.Well, if David Healy is a protestant and comes from the unionist community, it wouldn't surprise me that he wouldn't want to have anything to do with us down here! Certainly back in 2002, he probably would have been treated like a traitor of his own community and probably could have expected the Niall Lennon treatment!

kingdomkerry

12/04/2008, 12:14 PM

Admin, take a look at Norn Irons 3 posts to date. Draw your own conclusion!

shakermaker1982

12/04/2008, 12:18 PM

lads will you just leave the Nordies alone? Just don't bite and it will all blow over.

We haven't qualified in a major tournament in 6 years, the North were last there over 20 years ago. We both finished 3rd in our last qualifying pool so I'd say we're equally as ****e as each other.

However we have now have a manager who doesn't just hand out the training bibs, has actually managed a few clubs in his lifetime and might even start playing people in their correct positions. We can only improve. Just wait it out lads. If we start picking up points our boys from the north will no longer be on here gloating about how many of our players played schoolboy football in England back in 1990.

Lionel Ritchie

12/04/2008, 12:21 PM

Here's the team for your game v England at WC 1990:

RoI: Bonner - Morris, Staunton, McCarthy (c), Moran - McGrath, Houghton, Townsend, Aldridge (65 McLoughlin) - Cascarino, Sheedy.

(My italics)

I make that eight who grew up/ played schools football in Britain, not nine as claimed.

...which would've been my count as well. I was allowing the claimant enough rope to assert or claim McGrath as being one "from the UK" ...as if that in itself lessened their right to represent us -on the basis he was born there (as was O'Leary).

For the record -I couldn't give a flying one if all 11 starters and the entire subs bench were born here, there or elsewhere provided they give it their all when they pull on that shirt. I don't do gradations of Irishness.

If they qualify they're ours and I couldn't care less if they'd previously been Morris Dancing Champions of all Albion. Frankly I find that idea a lot less disturbing than the whale in my nightmares that is Killer in his Irish Dancing costume.

Gather round

12/04/2008, 12:36 PM

Association Football which is cross community :) (potential market 1m+ potential) is deemed to be only able to attract 20,000 if the team is doing well. Do you not think there is something odd about this?

No, not really. We could notionally attract a much bigger crowd for a one-off match- against England, or the Republic, or a crucial qualifier. But 20,000- 25,000 is a sensible estimate of the typical/ average crowd if we're doing reasonably well. This is comparable to many other international sides across Europe. Granted it doesn't compare with GAA- good for them, as I said. As for the IRFU, 50,000 to watch a provincial game sounds genuinely impressive- do you think this will sustain, given how low crowds used to be and that the Ireland side have had a couple of poor tournaments

The IFA have been offered a FREE STADIUM (South of England tax payers are paying for it) and you are still moaning!

It isn't free- it has been costed at well over �200 million all in. Northern Ireland taxpayers would pay a disproportionate share of this. See relevant thread on NI/ IL section. Do you think public money grows on a tree somewhere?

Hasn't had a chance to kick-in yet - give it another year or two or three ! NI fooball seemed to take Gibson's 'defection' rather badly! It probably needs time to recover from that shock

I explained upthread why the movement of players is likely to remain a trickle- not least because, to get professional contracts in Britain, NI born players will benefit from having played for NI representative teams.

For instance, with regard to preventing the No Surrender chants - anything suggest a very simple solution - use Danny Boy as your anthem! I'm sure the Queen would be very pleased if it helped her subjects to get on better together!

Brilliant!

What is this thing that you have to 'own' everything on your terms?

Er, it's the basis for international football support. We want to support our team. Not some choice of Republic of Ireland, Great Britain or other foreign teams.

Well, if David Healy is a protestant and comes from the unionist community, it wouldn't surprise me that he wouldn't want to have anything to do with us down here! Certainly back in 2002, he probably would have been treated like a traitor of his own community and probably could have expected the Niall Lennon treatment!

Janey Mac indeed, even by your standards this is convoluted ;) If I came on here saying the Republic of Ireland, or its international team, should cease to exist, I'd get the Neil (sic) Lennon treatment. But I don't, so I won't.

Got any more pointless hypotheses for us?

If we start picking up points our boys from the north will no longer be on here gloating about how many of our players played schoolboy football in England back in 1990

We'll still be on to answer the next comedian who suggests an all-Ireland side (ie, abolishing the NI one), of course ;)

Otherwise, fair points, although I'd argue 20 points in a competitive 12 game league is a bit better than 17.

Killer in his Irish Dancing costume

Are there any photos?

micls

12/04/2008, 12:51 PM

Funny thread.

People arguing about how bad the NI team are in a thread about why we should have an AI team.....

Why do we need an AI team again? Especially if they bring so little to the table

janeymac

12/04/2008, 1:42 PM

No, not really. We could notionally attract a much bigger crowd for a one-off match- against England, or the Republic, or a crucial qualifier. But 20,000- 25,000 is a sensible estimate of the typical/ average crowd if we're doing reasonably well. This is comparable to many other international sides across Europe. Granted it doesn't compare with GAA- good for them, as I said. As for the IRFU, 50,000 to watch a provincial game sounds genuinely impressive- do you think this will sustain, given how low crowds used to be and that the Ireland side have had a couple of poor tournaments

Well, I suppose if you are determined to keep it the way it is now, you just ain't going to get the numbers.

As regards the rugby - last interpro that I was at (Leinster v. Ulster), there was 48,000 at it. I believe about 20,000 came down to Dublin from Ulster for it (New Year's Eve). Ulster filled Lansdowne for their European Cup Final back in '99. Lots of local went along to support them! Lots of Norn Iron flags and no one batted an eyelid ;). Ulster Rugby are at the bottom of the Magners League but still can get 10,000 ever week. International form seems to be a blip because Leinster are topping the Magner's League (and likely to win it) & Munster are 2nd. Munster have just got through to the semi-finals of the HCup (knocking out Gloucester who are top of the English Premiership last weekend). Not bad for 2 teams that have predominatly players who are native to their province! I'm surprised NI media hasn't been keeping you up-to-date on how fantastic the two southern provinces have been doing, seeing as they keep you well informed on how badly the national team is :)

It isn't free- it has been costed at well over �200 million all in. Northern Ireland taxpayers would pay a disproportionate share of this. See relevant thread on NI/ IL section. Do you think public money grows on a tree somewhere?GAA fans pay tax as well - since it appears there are a lot more than them, maybe they should have a greater say in the stadium - or maybe you think they are all work dodgers! And for feck sake, everyone knows that NI is an economic basket case and completely reliant on the south of England taxpayer to keep it afloat. We're throwing in a fair few bob as well to help ya out (4 billion?) so I'm delighted to hear you realise that money doesn't grow on trees.

I explained upthread why the movement of players is likely to remain a trickle- not least because, to get professional contracts in Britain, NI born players will benefit from having played for NI representative teams.Sure - but since they are minors they will get picked or do you think it would be a good plan to avoid picking kids from nationalist backgrounds in case they 'defect'?

Er, it's the basis for international football support. We want to support our team. Not some choice of Republic of Ireland, Great Britain or other foreign teams. What about what the players would want, after all they have to do a bit more than just turn up and wave a flag!

Janey Mac indeed, even by your standards this is convoluted. If I came on here saying the Republic of Ireland, or its international team, should cease to exist, I'd get the Neil (sic) Lennon treatment. But I don't, so I won't. Got any more pointless hypotheses for us?See no evil, hear no evil, there is no evil, right?

We'll still be on to answer the next comedian who suggests an all-Ireland side (ie, abolishing the NI one), of course ;)So Pat Jennings & Martin O'Neill are comedians now - and George Best was (he was a good laugh mind).

Funny thread.

People arguing about how bad the NI team are in a thread about why we should have an AI team.....

Why do we need an AI team again? Especially if they bring so little to the table

Combining the two teams together might be an improvement maybe?

Personally, I'm happy the way it is, as long as ROI is free to select from the whole island!

micls

12/04/2008, 1:46 PM

Combining the two teams together might be an improvement maybe?

Surely not that much of an improvemet to be that bothered about it in purely footballing terms?

co. down green

12/04/2008, 1:48 PM

Not sure why some supporters of Worthington’s team find it strange that Ireland field players not born in the country, every team in Europe has done so for many years, including the North.

During the 90’s the North could have fielded a full team of English born players, and at times had no less than six such players in the starting eleven.

Ian Dowie, Kevin Wilson, Trevor wood, , Kingsley Black, Kevin Horlock, Jon McCarthy, Ian Nolan, Iain Jenkins, Danny Sonner,Mark Williams Adrain Coote & Lawrie Sanchez are all English born and represented the North during the period.

And that’s apart from Zambian born brothers Jeff & Jim Whitley, Norwegian Tony Capaldi and German born Maik Taylor.

The difference was that our lads helped us qualify for World cup finals and their lads helped them into.. footballing obscurity.:rolleyes:

No FIFA or UEFA regulations were broken by either team.

janeymac

12/04/2008, 2:06 PM

Surely not that much of an improvemet to be that bothered about it in purely footballing terms?

To be honest with you no - but if either side produced even one world class player a la Pat Jennings/Roy Keane it could make all the difference to actually qualifying for a competition - and we could all have a good time!

micls

12/04/2008, 2:09 PM

and we could all have a good time!

Apart from the NI fans who have lost their team......

I dunno. I think maybe I just have a very different view of what international football should be about than other people.

But throwing 2 teams together in the hope that NI will at some stage produce a world class player to help us makes no sense to me in footballing terms.

janeymac

12/04/2008, 2:20 PM

Apart from the NI fans who have lost their team......

I dunno. I think maybe I just have a very different view of what international football should be about than other people.

But throwing 2 teams together in the hope that NI will at some stage produce a world class player to help us makes no sense to me in footballing terms.

Well, working together/on the same side can also be good for the two parts of this island. Northerners (some of whom had never been to Dublin and would regard Ulster Rugby as the NI rugby team) who were at the HCup final in '99 have commented on how heartwarming that whole occasion was and they were blown away with the support and welcome they got the whole way down to Dublin (usual GAA type "good luck" signs etc on the way down and southern support at the match).

I would think it would be right that if say NI produced another George Best that they get the best chance possible to perform on the world stage. For instance, I think it is a dreadful shame that Ryan Giggs never got to a major competition.

micls

12/04/2008, 2:24 PM

Well, working together/on the same side can also be good for the two parts of this island. Northerners (some of whom had never been to Dublin and would regard Ulster Rugby as the NI rugby team) who were at the HCup final in '99 have commented on how heartwarming that whole occasion was and they were blown away with the support and welcome they got the whole way down to Dublin (usual GAA type "good luck" signs etc on the way down and southern support at the match).

But thats not footballing reasons though.

And its easy for us to be magnamimous when we will always be the major partner in these teams. Even reading through this thread people think they might get one player in.

So what would Northern Irish football fans have to support?

They lose their team, lose their identity, with what benefits for them? The possibility of a team that they dont feel represents them getting to a major finals?

I would think it would be right that if say NI produced another George Best that they get the best chance possible to perform on the world stage. For instance, I think it is a dreadful shame that Ryan Giggs never got to a major competition.

And there are plenty of other fantastic players that were in the same boat. But thats the nature of International football. its not about how good you/your team are its about national pride.

It may be a shame Giggs never made a finals but is it reason enough for Wales to merge with England. Or for any small team to merge with a bigger team for the sake of making a finals.

Again, for me, thats not what international football is about

osarusan

12/04/2008, 2:34 PM

So what would Northern Irish football fans have to support?

They lose their team, lose their identity, with what benefits for them? The possibility of a team that they dont feel represents them getting to a major finals?

This is a key point.

I said earlier in the thread that the term "United Ireland Team" is a misnomer, as all of Ireland would not be united in support of it.

People need to realise that the argument used about the NI football team - that it is not representative of all the people in NI, and some feel alienated by it - would be equally applicable regarding a "united Ireland team" in the current climate.

As Ealing Green said earlier, it needs to be something supported by both sides.

Furthermore, I'd only like to see such a union as a result of a politically united Ireland, not before.

geysir

12/04/2008, 5:04 PM

As Ealing Green said earlier, it needs to be something supported by both sides.
Just in case there are brownie points for that revelation, the pertinent point about the IFA and FAI needing to agree was made in a reply to EG well before he recycled it in one of his posts in the thread.

ifk101

12/04/2008, 5:20 PM

Funny thread.

People arguing about how bad the NI team are in a thread about why we should have an AI team.....

Why do we need an AI team again? Especially if they bring so little to the table

It's important to point out that it is in fact former NI internationals that have spoken out in support of an United Ireland team. And, as such, it's only right that we politely consider their proposal and analyse what NI have to offer. :D

micls

12/04/2008, 5:22 PM

It's important to point out that it is in fact former NI internationals that have spoken out in support of an United Ireland team. And, as such, it's only right that we politely consider their proposal and analyse what NI have to offer. :D

In fairness its how many people? 3? Out of how many that have played for them in the last how many years?

Ffs Im sure youd find 3 Irish players who'd think itd be a great idea if we merged with England cos they live there.....but we wouldnt be taking them seriously either.

ifk101

12/04/2008, 5:38 PM

In fairness its how many people? 3? Out of how many that have played for them in the last how many years?

Yes and it's the topic of discussion in this thread. Everything has a beginning.

Ffs Im sure youd find 3 Irish players who'd think itd be a great idea if we merged with England cos they live there.....but we wouldnt be taking them seriously either.

That's for another thread.

Gather round

12/04/2008, 7:16 PM

Well, I suppose if you are determined to keep it the way it is now, you just ain't going to get the numbers

Er...NI fans are arguing for a new or redeveloped stadium that holds up to twice the capacity of Windsor Park. But there's no point building a white elephant three or four times the size- it woulde be a waste of money, and experience going back decades suggests crowds likely to fill it would happen only very occasionally. Let's be realistic: countries with less than 2 million people tend not to win the World Cup...

Ulster Rugby are at the bottom of the Magners League but still can get 10,000 ever week

When Ulster were top of the Celtic League, they didn't get significantly more than that- certainly not to the extent that they needed to urgently redevelop Ravenhill, or borrow Croke, Lansdowne or the Maracana. They got a big crowd for a one off cup final nine years ago. Nice, but not a sensible basis for expansion on the scale you suggest.

I'm surprised NI media hasn't been keeping you up-to-date on how fantastic the two southern provinces have been doing, seeing as they keep you well informed on how badly the national team is

You shouldn't be- I know how Leinster and Munster are doing. I don't dwell on it, because it isn't relevant to anything I've mentioned on the thread.

GAA fans pay tax as well - since it appears there are a lot more than them, maybe they should have a greater say in the stadium

They have as much say as anyone. They are of course entitled to support a shared sports stadium at Long Kesh, but they can't reasonably insist on it if other sports oppose the project. Football and rugby fans have made clear their opposition to the LK site. Most comment now suggests unionist politics as a whole will withdraw support soon.

or maybe you think they are all work dodgers
Why would I think that? I certainly haven't implied it, again it's completely irrelevant to anything I've said. Please stop stirring, it's childish.

everyone knows that NI is an economic basket case and completely reliant on the south of England taxpayer to keep it afloat

Economic growth in NI to end 2006 (last year of collated figures) was 5.6%- the second highest of Britain's twelve regions. Manufacturing exports increased by 10% in 2006/07. Growth of the economy in 2008 is estimated at 2.4% by Oxford Economics (the ESRI estimates the equivalent figure for the Republic at 1.8%). No-one pretends that there aren't serious problems, both local and global, but 'basket-case' is just empty cliche. (Source: http://www.detini.gov.uk/cgi-bin/downutildoc?id=2158)

We're throwing in a fair few bob as well to help ya out (4 billion?)

No you aren't. Stop lying, please. The Republic's entire budget estimate for international co-operation is only €813 million in 2008 (source http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downloads/BudgetTables.pdf)

Sure - but since they are minors they will get picked

What does this mean? I said that youth players in NI representative teams were more likely to get professional contracts than those who weren't chosen. And once chosen by NI, they're likely to stay with us. If you have any evidence against this, let's see it?

do you think it would be a good plan to avoid picking kids from nationalist backgrounds in case they 'defect'?

No. Again, nothing I've said implies this. I want NI schools and youth teams to pick the best players available. I think anyone playing in a youth international side (ie after leaving school) shouldn't be eligible for any other country thereafter. I don't expect more than a trickle of players away, as I said- but time will tell.

See no evil, hear no evil, there is no evil, right?

Wrong. You just made up a story to illustrate the hypothetical effect of an unrealistic event. Please don't imply I'm downplaying what happened to Neil Lennon.

So Pat Jennings & Martin O'Neill are comedians now - and
George Best was (he was a good laugh mind)

Well, like I said, anyone who argues for our team to be abolished can **** off. Couldn't give a toss if they won the European cup, scored 200 League goals, did a good job representing other players or have an eponymous airport- no-one is beyond criticism. I haven't seen any direct quotes from O'Neill and Jennings- I asked for them on page two, way above- but in principle I apply the same criticism to anyone who puts the argument.

The difference was that our lads helped us qualify for World cup finals and their lads helped them into.. footballing obscurity

You're a bit bit behind the times alas. We're both in footballing obscurity at the moment.

And, as such, it's only right that we politely consider their proposal and analyse what NI have to offer

Ha ha.I thought you'd made up your mind 200 posts ago, when you rejected the idea? Not that it's stopped you moaning since that the thread features the limited number of usual suspects. What did you expect, hordes of balaclava-wearing NI fans to arrive hailing it as a brilliant, novel idea?

ifk101

12/04/2008, 7:47 PM

Ha ha.I thought you'd made up your mind 200 posts ago, when you rejected the idea? Not that it's stopped you moaning since that the thread features the limited number of usual suspects. What did you expect, hordes of balaclava-wearing NI fans to arrive hailing it as a brilliant, novel idea?

I've made my mind (and it's not going to change BTW) but I wrote "we" for those that haven't. So relax. :D

geysir

13/04/2008, 11:24 AM

They have as much say as anyone. They are of course entitled to support a shared sports stadium at Long Kesh, but they can't reasonably insist on it if other sports oppose the project. Football and rugby fans have made clear their opposition to the LK site. Most comment now suggests unionist politics as a whole will withdraw support soon.
Are you recycling that misinformation that it's the GAA forcing the issue on the Maze location against the real wishes of the other 2 sporting bodies?
The sporting bodies, UR, IFA and Ulster GAA are united in their strong support for the Maze location. The GAA are not insisting that the other 2 bodies agree with them.
Popular support for the location etc. from soccer fans is another issue altogether.

Gather round

13/04/2008, 11:50 AM

Are you recycling that misinformation that it's the GAA forcing the issue on the Maze location against the real wishes of the other 2 sporting bodies?

I'm not misinforming anything, recycled or otherwise. Although admittedly I could have put that better. I have no quarrel with the GAA- they can argue for public or private funded facilities as they see fit. My gripe is the unholy alliance between the IFA goons and Sinn Fein, who have been saying recently that they will veto any stadium not at the Maze site (including any private-funded stadium in Belfast, through the planning system).

If, as I expect, the DUP quietly abandon any support they've given to the Maze project, it won't happen. I very much doubt the GAA would want to go ahead on the site in those circumstances.

I'm not hidebound by the real wishes of the IFA. They're unrepresentative of the fans and have no clout to take on politicians. They'll follow decisions made elsewhere.

geysir

13/04/2008, 12:54 PM

Your totally unrelated gripe has nothing to do with the statement that you say you could have put better.

You stated that the GAA cannot reasonably insist on the stadium issue if the other sports oppose.
The other 2 sporting bodies are at present not opposed, as of yet support the Maze proposal in its entirety and as of yet have come out wholeheartedly in support of the location etc.
In fact the IFA are on public record as being more trenchant on the Maze location issue.

In that context your statement could have been put better in that that any of the sporting bodies cannot reasonably insist on the stadium plans if the other sporting bodies disagree.

Gather round

13/04/2008, 2:01 PM

Your totally unrelated gripe has nothing to do with the statement that you say you could have put better

It's hardly unrelated. My gripe is with Sinn Fein and the IFA; both of them will need to react if, as I expect, the DUP pull the plug; the GAA will also need to react.

In that context your statement could have been put better in that that any of the sporting bodies cannot reasonably insist on the stadium plans if the other sporting bodies disagree

I'll meet you halfway. None of the three sports can reasonably insist on a public funded stadium if the other sports disagree.

I know that more than 80% of NI fans oppose the Maze Stadium. I note your oft-repeated counter that the IFA disagree, but as I've said I expect them to be bypassed following a combination of public pressure and political manoeuvring.

If I'm wrong, so be it. See ye at the Stadium of Sh*ite :(

EalingGreen

13/04/2008, 5:50 PM

We finished 2nd in all our WC finals groups. We finished ahead of Holand on the drawing of lots in 1990. In 1994 we finished behind Mexico on goals scored but ahead of Italy on direct match result.

Would seem logical, but I went by FIFA's own Website. Perhaps you better have a word:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=84/results/index.html

kingdomkerry

13/04/2008, 6:20 PM

But thats not footballing reasons though.

And its easy for us to be magnamimous when we will always be the major partner in these teams. Even reading through this thread people think they might get one player in.

So what would Northern Irish football fans have to support?

They lose their team, lose their identity, with what benefits for them? The possibility of a team that they dont feel represents them getting to a major finals?

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we. But it would be for the better good. Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

Lionel Ritchie

13/04/2008, 6:44 PM

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we. But it would be for the better good. Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

...So, just to clarify, you'll be quite happy for us to play under a neutral flag ...maybe St. Patricks saltire or a gold harp on a green flag maybe? ...and with a neutral anthem? ...Irelands Call or something?

kingdomkerry

13/04/2008, 6:52 PM

yeah no problem, my preferred choice would be two anthems and two flags including the tricolour and amhrain na bhfiann but I would have no problem with going neutral

micls

13/04/2008, 6:53 PM

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we.
Would we really. How many people would be against an AI team down here? Its something the majority of our fans want. Also how many of our players would lose their places? 1 maybe 2. So we'd bascially be supporting the same team. Theyd have maybe one or two of 'their' players to support

But it would be for the better good.
According to who? Whats this better good?Maybe a very slightly improved chance of making a tournament

Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

I have no idea how many people up north support rugby. I dunno if they were for or against the team etc. But I do know the NI fans now are against a UI football team.

So why should we have one?

We can pick any player on the island that wants to play for us. They can pick anyone from the North who wants to play for them. I dont see whats wrong with this arrangement

Irelands Call ?

Please no.....

EalingGreen

13/04/2008, 7:00 PM

Keep clinging on to that quarter final in 1958 man when about ten teams in the world took the wc and international football as a whole seriously. It's in no way comparable to even a second round appearance in a modern world cup.

NI qualified for 1958 from a Group which included Italy and Portugal (the only time Italy have ever failed to qualify for a World Cup Finals, before or since, btw)

In the Finals, our fellow Group members were West Germany (reigning World Champions), Argentina and Czechoslovakia.

We were eventually eliminated by France, after a series of crippling injuries, compounded by a ridiculous (overland) travel schedule and an extra match over all the other teams (play-off).

So if there were really only 10 teams who took football seriously in those days :rolleyes:, we certainly played our share of them. (Btw, were ROI one of those ten teams? Perhaps not, seeing as they failed to qualify...)

As for the team itself, they were also British Champions jointly with England both in 1957-58 and 1958-59, when in their six games they drew twice with Scotland, drew with and beat Wales, and drew with and beat England (at Wembley). Incidentally, all three of those opponents were to qualify for the 1958 World Cup, where the greatest-ever Wales team also reached the Quarter Finals.

The NI team of the period was built around the four world class players, Gregg, Blanchflower, Peacock and McIlroy:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/12/harry-gregg.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/08/danny-blanchflower.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/01/bertie-beacock.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/04/jimmy-mcilroy.html
They were ably supported by top class players such as Bingham, Keith, McMichael and Cunningham, all with top flight English clubs at the time, plus McParland of Aston Villa, who scored five times to make him the all-time leading Irish goalscorer in World Cup Finals.
In fact, if never the strongest squad, there is a strong case for saying that this was the finest Irish team ever to leave our shores.

You only reached the QF once btw. More manipulated facts from our friends up north.

In 1982, there was no "Quarter Finals", as such. Instead, after we topped our Initial Group ;), 12 teams were divided into a Second Stage (four Groups of three teams). The four winners of each Second Stage Group went straight through to the Semi-Finals. Therefore, we qualified for the nearest equivalent of the Quarter Finals stage.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=59/results/index.html

So manipulate it how you like, in reaching the last 8 and the last 12, NI have secured 3 Finals victories, whereas ROI have won two games in qualifying for the last 8 once and the last 16 twice.

kingdomkerry

13/04/2008, 7:15 PM

How many people would be against an AI team down here? Its something the majority of our fans want.

I know this already.

Also how many of our players would lose their places?

Id say 2 or 3 at the moment. Do you not think the best possible team should be chosen regardless of what part of Ireland they come from. Again using the rugby as an example Ulster rarely have more than one or two on the starting 15. Why because the best 15 is picked and only 1 or 2 happen to be from Ulster.

So we'd bascially be supporting the same team.

We would not be supporting the same team we would be supporting a team representing EVERYONE in Ireland.

They'd have maybe one or two of 'their' players to support

So what. Whos to say in another era we would'nt have only one or two of our players to support. It would'nt bother me, there all Irish could'nt care less what part

According to who? Whats this better good?Maybe a very slightly improved chance of making a tournament

According to me and anybody with half a brain. Why do you ask a question when you already know the answer

EalingGreen

13/04/2008, 7:46 PM

Not sure why some supporters of Worthington�s team find it strange that Ireland field players not born in the country, every team in Europe has done so for many years, including the North.

During the 90�s the North could have fielded a full team of English born players, and at times had no less than six such players in the starting eleven.

Ian Dowie, Kevin Wilson, Trevor wood, , Kingsley Black, Kevin Horlock, Jon McCarthy, Ian Nolan, Iain Jenkins, Danny Sonner,Mark Williams Adrain Coote & Lawrie Sanchez are all English born and represented the North during the period.

And that�s apart from Zambian born brothers Jeff & Jim Whitley, Norwegian Tony Capaldi and German born Maik Taylor.

The difference was that our lads helped us qualify for World cup finals and their lads helped them into.. footballing obscurity.:rolleyes:

No FIFA or UEFA regulations were broken by either team.

Since you have a very selective way with facts, the difference in the respective use of 1st/2nd generation players by NI and ROI is much greater than you imply.
For one thing, we rarely had more than 3 or 4 such players in any given team.
And with the exception of Dowie, Wilson and Williams, few of those you list were prominent players for us. For example, Wood made a solitary second half appearance as sub against Liechtenstein, Coote made one start in a friendly with Canada (plus five caps as sub), Jenkins gained six caps, four of them friendlies, and Sanchez got three caps, as did Jim Whitley. Sonner gained 13 caps over a 7 year period, 11 of them friendlies.
By contrast, ROI teams of the period often had a majority of 1st/2nd generation players, including many who were stalwarts who gained dozens of caps.
Further, by talking about the "90's" and listing 16 players, you add to the misleading impression. In fact, Sanchez's three caps were in the 80's, Jeff Whitley made just one start and three sub appearances during the 90's, Maik Taylor made his debut in 1999 and Capaldi made his debut in 2004. Therefore, these were 16 players who appeared over a period of nearer 20 years than 10.
Finally, we relied much less heavily on the "granny rule" than ROI, since all but 4 (5?) of those 16 players had a parent from NI.

P.S. You failed to mention it (again), but did you ever actually see any of those players play for NI at Windsor? You made accusations of crowd misbehaviour by NI fans a few posts back, but seem strangely reticent in providing eye-witness accounts...:eek:

Nobody gives a sh1te what NI did a many many years ago. The title of this thread is'nt "History of NI football"

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

kingdomkerry

13/04/2008, 8:12 PM

:D:D:D How could you be proud of what ye have a reputation for!

Original and best my arse!!!

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

Thats generally what I do with your posts;)

co. down green

13/04/2008, 10:32 PM

For one thing, we rarely had more than 3 or 4 such players in any given team

Simply responding to a couple of your buddies who seemed oblivious to the fact that your team has never had a issue using players born in England, Zambia, Norway, Germany or wherever. For example the team beaten 4-1 by Finland in 99 contained no less than eight such players.

But fair play to your management team , they were working within the guide lines set out by FIFA.

You failed to mention it (again), but did you ever actually see any of those players play for NI at Windsor?

As I recall, Ian Dowie, Kingsley Black & Kevin Wilson all made an appearance when we qualified for the 94 World Cup at Windsor in November 93. Thanks again to your sponsors Vauxhall for providing the Belfast Boys In Green with six free complimentary tickets for the Railway stand that evening.:D

geysir

13/04/2008, 10:53 PM

kk, you have a peculiar way of doing the ignoring bit :)

The OWC like to denigrate our team for having greater use of dual nationals when most of the dual nationals, that they tried out, just weren't good enough to be played :confused:

Not Brazil

14/04/2008, 8:15 AM

How could you be proud of what ye have a reputation for!

Fans have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World Football.;)

youngirish

14/04/2008, 9:16 AM

No you aren't. Stop lying, please. The Republic's entire budget estimate for international co-operation is only €813 million in 2008 (source http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downloads/BudgetTables.pdf)

Why should we be giving you anything? After all we're the underdeveloped, uneducated, papist South that wasn't worth dragging through the industrial revolution?

Didn't quite work out that one did it? Another laughable policy enacted by the Great British Empire. The great international pirates of modern history. They stole the riches from everywhere they went until there was nothing left.

Fans have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World Football.;)

Don't be so foolish. I've seen a number of videos on youtube in fairly recent years of NI fans singing the sash before games. Cardiff away to Wales was one that springs to mind. All I'll say is things have improved but there's a long road ahead of you.

We'll see how far you've come when next you play us in Belfast. Not as far as you think I'm guessing and you've still a few years before then to improve further.

In 1982, there was no "Quarter Finals", as such. Instead, after we topped our Initial Group ;), 12 teams were divided into a Second Stage (four Groups of three teams). The four winners of each Second Stage Group went straight through to the Semi-Finals. Therefore, we qualified for the nearest equivalent of the Quarter Finals stage.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=59/results/index.html

So manipulate it how you like, in reaching the last 8 and the last 12, NI have secured 3 Finals victories, whereas ROI have won two games in qualifying for the last 8 once and the last 16 twice.
I said you didn't reach the Quarter Finals as one of the other NI fans posted previously. Note to EG, a Quarter Final means that there's only 8 teams left in the competition not 12. If we take your results in the second group stage as a whole then the highest you could claim that NI finished was tenth overall in the competition so you still wouldn't have made the last 8 on merit.

Finally if you are seriously stating that a quarter final appearance in 1958 should be considered with the same merit as a quarter final appearance in the relatively modern game then you are deluding yourself my friend. Have a look at how many teams actually even bothered trying to qualify in 1958 compared to today. The USSR alone must have removed over a dozen countries from qualification and Yugoslavia about 5. Large areas of the World didn't bother taking football seriously (Africa, Asia and Northern and Central America). The quality of the players was in no way comparable either to the quality today.