O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team [Archive] - Page 5

Gather round

11/04/2008, 9:32 AM

Don't get you point here? He's obviously refering to the fact that there was no unionist majority on the island of Ireland prior to partition and it was only the manufacture of the 6 county state (which was initially not intended to be a permenant border, see boundry commission etc) that gave the unionist majority in the North 'legitimacy'. As for your point about the broder being redrawn (as was originally agreed would happen on an ongoing basis) down the Foyle, well obviously the nationalist minority would be smaller (you could say the same about South Armagh, Newry etc) but the NI state would also be smaller, I'd happilly take it back peice by piece. You'd end up with a state so small as to be possibly unviable. It's more an arguement for Politics.ie rather then Foot.ie though.....

My point is simply that the supposedly artifical unionist majority in Northern Ireland is no more artificial than their minority within Ireland as a whole. There's no inherent reason why the whole island should be a single political unit, any more than the whole of Iberia or the whole of Scandinavia is.

Unionists want(ed) to be outside the Free State/ Republic; clearly the best way to achieve that was to have a border. Even with unionists being numerous and localised, as I mentioned, you were inevitably going to have thousands unlucky and stranded on the wrong side- but without a border, that number would be much larger.

I can't see the border being redrawn in the foreseeable future, not least because it would set a precedent that future changes were straightforward. But of course they wouldn't be, as you would always have pockets- some very large- who would challenge the change. As for viability, city states are viable, so a smaller NI could be, theoretically.

The argument's on here because people have raised it, and unless and until the mods close the thread there's a likelihood others will answer them.

With what one would presume 50%+ of the population at least who in theory should support the NI football team, I don't get how you are so unambitious with the size of your new stadium (25,000?) that the supporters think they can fill it. When Ulster Rugby played in the HCup final in Lansdowne Road (48K+ capcity), it was filled. Surely if a minority sport like rugby can get 30,000+ to travel to Dublin, NI football should be able to attract a lot more. Its only a couple of games a year.

I should mention here that the Tyrone & Armagh gaelic teams don't have a problem filling Croke Park when they get there.

So, with a population of 1m+ (potential market), how come you are not more ambitious with your new stadium?

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

Drumcondra 69er

11/04/2008, 9:46 AM

My point is simply that the supposedly artifical unionist majority in Northern Ireland is no more artificial than their minority within Ireland as a whole. There's no inherent reason why the whole island should be a single political unit, any more than the whole of Iberia or the whole of Scandinavia is.

Unionists want(ed) to be outside the Free State/ Republic; clearly the best way to achieve that was to have a border. Even with unionists being numerous and localised, as I mentioned, you were inevitably going to have thousands unlucky and stranded on the wrong side- but without a border, that number would be much larger.

I can't see the border being redrawn in the foreseeable future, not least because it would set a precedent that future changes were straightforward. But of course they wouldn't be, as you would always have pockets- some very large- who would challenge the change. As for viability, city states are viable, so a smaller NI could be, theoretically.

The argument's on here because people have raised it, and unless and until the mods close the thread there's a likelihood others will answer them.

.

That still doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry, I'm obviously missing your point.

Out of interest, do you think that the white populations in South Africa and Zimbabwe should have been given an area of those countries to govern following their transitions from their previous status?

My remark about Politics.ie was meant to be tongue in cheek btw. ;)

janeymac

11/04/2008, 9:53 AM

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

Think of HCup as being more the standard of football internationals - you will get more demand for HCup games than you will for League games, particularly in knock-out stages. Ulster Rugby would play their HCup games in the new Stadium. Ulster GAA have an ongoing battle with Croke Park about wanting to hold Ulster games there because capacity isn't big enough in Clones or Casement. One of the reasons why Ulster GAA in the main were objecting to the opening up to Croke Park that they didn't like th e foreign sports getting priority over GAA.

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales, though I bet if they were playing France they might have got a better attendance.

jmurphyc

11/04/2008, 9:59 AM

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

That was an away game and considering both teams were out of contention how many did you expect to be at the game? We were hardly going to fill Cardiff by ourselves and I was actually surprised by how many Irish fans turned up to the game.

Gather round

11/04/2008, 10:02 AM

That still doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry, I'm obviously missing your point.

Out of interest, do you think that the white populations in South Africa and Zimbabwe should have been given an area of those countries to govern following their transitions from their previous status?

My remark about Politics.ie was meant to be tongue in cheek btw

Irish nationalists tend (this may not include you, of course) to argue that Ireland is a recognised unit, and should be politically as it is geographically. On this reasoning, the 20% of unionists should simply have accepted Irish independence from Britain in the early 20th.

Two basic flaws- it's contradicted by other examples elsewhere in Europe, and it simply ignores- may not understand- that others disagree.

No, I don't think that about southern Africa, nor accept your loaded question. Ulster unionists have never asked for part of your country to govern, except in the very localised sense of disagreement on where the border should run. Whites in Zimbabwe have never been more than 1% of the population, btw, so they'd have been pretty squeezed in their own canton or whatever.

Sorry for the unionist sense of humour failure :)

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

I've already answered this- for most of their home games, Ulster rugby get about 12,000, ie about the same as NI football.

As for GAA, if they are regularly selling out Casement (30,000?) and Clones (not sure?), I'm genuinely impressed.

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales, though I bet if they were playing France they might have got a better attendance

Come on, they got a poor home gate because their team is poor, and a poor away following because your fans were cheesed off after a poor campaign. My point being that Wales- a small country with limited playing pool, comparable to NI- are likely to have long periods where their crowds are more suited to Wrexham or Swansea. If the Welsh Rugby Union hadn't helpfully built the MillStad, the local FA would be quite happy playing at the smaller venues. There'd be occasional sell-outs, but such is the price of success.

That was an away game and considering both teams were out of contention how many did you expect to be at the game? We were hardly going to fill Cardiff by ourselves and I was actually surprised by how many Irish fans turned up to the game

Relax, I'm not having a pop at your fans (or theirs). It was widely seen as a dead rubber by both teams. Just like ours in Austria to finish the previous tournament- 12,000 lost in the Ernst Happel stadium. But when we last went to Cardiff, the ground was full. Start of the tournament, and they'd done well in the previous one.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 10:25 AM

If �One Team In Ireland� is good enough Jennings, Dougan, Lennon, O�Neill & Best, its good enough for us ;)

Yes, and that "one team" which was good enough for them was the Northern Ireland one. Of course, there is another team in Ireland, as we NI fans are happy to acknowledge - even if that is not always reciprocated by the other lot.

Eg?, you need to get out more.

The above comment of yours followed your initial assertion that you support ROI (and therefore a combined team) in order to be successful and qualify, to which I replied: "Of course the goal of any team is to be as successful as possible. But are you saying that teams should therefore do whatever it takes to gain success?Or that fans should withdraw their support for that team if they are not successful?"
With such a childish comeback, you are only demeaning an already weak case.

Glad to see the �good times� have increased your attendances from 6,000 to 13,000. Glory hunters, ehh. :D

Actually, the crowds held up remarkably well even during the depressing days of Sammy McIlroy's tenure - almost as an act of defiance! And it was notable that the fans never turned on him when we were being humiliated (e.g. losing at home to Armenia), in contrast to the stick e.g. Steve Staunton got.
And crowds began to recover even before the results did - at least partly because the true fans "reclaimed the terraces" from the boo boys etc and created an infinitely better and more welcoming atmosphere. Of course, the subsequent run of success also helped, but you can hardly turn away e.g. kids who want to see what it's like, or returning old timers who had previously been discouraged as much by crowd misbehaviour as defeats.

No, a few pints and an atmosphere free of sectarian chanting, does me fine.

When were you last at an NI international, if ever? There hasn't been sectarian chanting in years, a fact testified to by e.g. Kenny Archer of the Irish News, when he pointed out after the defeat of England in 2005: "Those who wish to live in the past and apply outdated labels to all Northern Ireland fans are the real bigots"

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

Unless you are saying the NI team should be scrapped due to low crowds - in which case the same should apply to a dozen other UEFA Members - what relevance does that have to the question of a combined Ireland team? Indeed, what business is it of yours whether we play our games in front of 100 fans or 100,000?

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales,

You don't know what you're talking about. The fact that the National Rugby team attracts huge crowds 4 or 5 times a year - as much a social occasion as anything else - should not be allowed to distort the true picture.
Not only has Football many more registered players than rugby, but on an average weekend it attracts more spectators as well. Compare for example the crowds over the last five years of Cardiff Blues - playing in the top tier of Welsh rugby, inc. Europe with those of Cardiff City, a mediocre team in the second tier of a League outside their own country.
Welsh Rugby never advertises the fact that it is effectively confined to the Valleys and South Wales, unlike Football, whose reach encompasses the entire country.
But your analogy is useful in another way. With the top Welsh football clubs playing in England, the National team perenially unable ever to qualify for anything and crowds in decline, why not combine the Welsh and England football teams?
True, only Ryan Giggs and Neville Southall would have got a place in such a team in recent years; then again, only Jonny Evans would get a place in the combined Ireland team which its proponents advocate. And besides, England and Wales really ARE one country...:rolleyes:

Drumcondra 69er

11/04/2008, 10:46 AM

Irish nationalists tend (this may not include you, of course) to argue that Ireland is a recognised unit, and should be politically as it is geographically. On this reasoning, the 20% of unionists should simply have accepted Irish independence from Britain in the early 20th.

Two basic flaws- it's contradicted by other examples elsewhere in Europe, and it simply ignores- may not understand- that others disagree.

No, I don't think that about southern Africa, nor accept your loaded question. Ulster unionists have never asked for part of your country to govern, except in the very localised sense of disagreement on where the border should run. Whites in Zimbabwe have never been more than 1% of the population, btw, so they'd have been pretty squeezed in their own canton or whatever.

Sorry for the unionist sense of humour failure :)

Question wasn't intended as loaded, I think it's a valid comparison to make (lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population although I accpet that what happenined 400 years ago shouldn't be considered when looking for a solution today). And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition, whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20's. And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware). The NI government of the time's obstruction of the boundry commission which had been set up to re draw what was in fact a provisional border is also well documented despite the official files never having been released.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 10:53 AM

Question wasn't intended as loaded, I think it's a valid comparison to make (lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population although I accpet that what happenined 400 years ago shouldn't be considered when looking for a solution today). And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition, whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20's. And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware). The NI government of the time's obstruction of the boundry commission which had been set up to re draw what was in fact a provisional border is also well documented despite the official files never having been released.

No harm, Drumcondra, but will you take this crap somewhere else more appropriate, before you get this thread locked?

And Gather Round, will you stop encouraging him?

Even if it was boring the ass of 99% of the other Members of this forum, this thread was an important one, with interesting debate, before it was dragged seriously off track by a couple of individuals who appear more interested in how sport affects politics in Ireland, rather than the other way round.

geysir

11/04/2008, 10:58 AM

shakermaker1982

11/04/2008, 10:59 AM

Oh dear, I see where this is going.....six + pages of arguments between the usual suspects then thread locked....

I'm outta here!

Note Dr Ogba could see what would happen at the very beginning of the thread.

Both sides of the argument would be better off talking to their monitor because you will not win the other side round.

Gather round

11/04/2008, 11:09 AM

lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population

The Shona and Ndebele (two main ethnic groups in modern Zimbabwe, since you mentioned it) aren't indigenous to the area of the present country. They largely migrated into the area in the 19th, like the white Europeans.

And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition

No, they asked to remain in the same country as before, ie Britain.

whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20s

Arguable. In the 16th century, just before the plantation, Britain controlled much of Ireland, but not Ulster- hence the plan to plant. So, effectively the island was partitioned between the British-ruled area, and the rest. Similarly, in earlier centuries there was the Pale- it partitioned Ireland.

And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware)

Indeed, and it's only two counties now. Hard on Fermanagh nationalists of course, but without a border it would be harder on Antrim unionists (who are ten times more numerous).

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 11:10 AM

Political unity and Football unity are interdependent.
In the event of unity on a political level, it does not mandate a unity on a football level.

Very few Unionists see themselves as having an Irish Identity along with a British identity.
Unionists would be able to continue with their team regardless of partition status.

This thread is debating whether there should be a "United" Ireland football team per se.

Opponents of the idea - chiefly, but not exclusively, NI fans - argue that without political unity first, it cannot ever happen, indeed should not ever happen.
Further, as you correctly allude, even subsequent to any political unity, there is no guarantee that footballing unity must inevitably follow.

Now if the proponents of a "United" team want to discuss the likelihood, or otherwise, of the political unity which must (imo) necessarily preclude any footballing unity, then by all means let them fire away.

It just shouldn't be in this thread, or even this Section.

Drumcondra 69er

11/04/2008, 11:10 AM

No harm, Gather Round, but will you take this crap somewhere else more appropriate, before you get this thread locked?

And Drumcondra, will you stop encouraging him?

Fair enough, had mentioned it would have been more appropraite on politics.ie in a previous post myself.

And as I didn't bring politics into this discussion I've corrected your post for you! ;)

GavinZac

11/04/2008, 11:12 AM

I think my opinions on this topic are best explained by this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

Drumcondra 69er

11/04/2008, 11:16 AM

This thread is debating whether there should be a "United" Ireland football team per se.

Opponents of the idea - chiefly, but not exclusively, NI fans - argue that without political unity first, it cannot ever happen, indeed should not ever happen.
Further, as you correctly allude, even subsequent to any political unity, there is no guarantee that footballing unity must inevitably follow.

Now if the proponents of a "United" team want to discuss the likelihood, or otherwise, of the political unity which must (imo) necessarily preclude any footballing unity, then by all means let them fire away.

It just shouldn't be in this thread, or even this Section.

On topic I actually agree with you here. I'm quite happy for NI to have it's own team as long as we can select players who want to play for us from all 32 counties.

In the inevitable event of eventual reunification (still a long way off mind) then the issue of a united team will have to be brooached but I'm sure that'll be the least both of of our worries at that stage. I'd like to think it would happen but as you say, there are cases such as Hong Kong where it hasn't although that's a tenuous comparison.

gspain

11/04/2008, 11:18 AM

Come on, they got a poor home gate because their team is poor, and a poor away following because your fans were cheesed off after a poor campaign. My point being that Wales- a small country with limited playing pool, comparable to NI- are likely to have long periods where their crowds are more suited to Wrexham or Swansea. If the Welsh Rugby Union hadn't helpfully built the MillStad, the local FA would be quite happy playing at the smaller venues. There'd be occasional sell-outs, but such is the price of success.

Relax, I'm not having a pop at your fans (or theirs). It was widely seen as a dead rubber by both teams. Just like ours in Austria to finish the previous tournament- 12,000 lost in the Ernst Happel stadium. But when we last went to Cardiff, the ground was full. Start of the tournament, and they'd done well in the previous one.

Actually we had a decent away support in Cardiff. I think it was approx 5,000. The Welsh fans I was chatting to afterwards were impressed with our support but not with their own. Furthermore we paid over twixce what they paid for our tickets in a scam normally reserved for Cyprus and Eastern Europe.

paul_oshea

11/04/2008, 11:23 AM

co. down green

11/04/2008, 11:26 AM

When were you last at an NI international, if ever? There hasn't been sectarian chanting in years

I watched a bit of the North v Georgia game on tv and didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem.

I suppose you can argue that its simply a loyalist chant, and not sectarian, but in the context of a 'supposed' neutral environment, its hard to see it as being anything less than intimidatory, and thus sectarian in its intent.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls. I'm bored to death wading through your posts, enjoy life.

Gather round

11/04/2008, 11:40 AM

And Gather Round, will you stop encouraging him?

Sorry boss, guilty as charged. Still, 250+ posts without a lock isn't bad ;)

Very few Unionists see themselves as having an Irish Identity along with a British identity

I'm sure this is wrong. Ian Paisley- sectarian bigot and religious maniac that he is- makes no attempt to deny his Irishness.

Actually we had a decent away support in Cardiff. I think it was approx 5,000

Fair enough, looked less on the day. A couple in the row behind me were asleep/ unconscious throughout, mind...

didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem

You're exaggerating. A couple of hundred at most.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls

You're obsessed by these trolls? Anyway, bye. See ye in South Africa, maybe?

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 12:02 PM

I watched a bit of the North v Georgia game on tv and didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem.

I suppose you can argue that its simply a loyalist chant, and not sectarian, but in the context of a 'supposed' neutral environment, its hard to see it as being anything less than intimidatory, and thus sectarian in its intent.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls. I'm bored to death wading through your posts, enjoy life.

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way, are by no means representative of the vast bulk of the Green and White Army; neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans - Protestant and Catholic - from making the atmosphere at WP as good as you'll get anywhere, a fact recognised by impartial observers both within and outwith NI. Indeed, the only people who are "intimidated" at Windsor these days are our opponents - in the nicest possible way!

Besides, if I were to bother searching through this Message Board, it wouldn't take me long to find occasional examples of misbehaviour by ROI fans. ("Today I was ashamed to be Irish", or somesuch?)

It would appear that you don't let that put you off following your team, nor should it, since the culprits there are equally unrepresentative of, and reviled by, the overwhelming majority of true and decent ROI fans.

Sadly, most, if not all, groups of supporters have their minority of ********s amongst their ranks. As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

The NI football team is nowhere near that stage, mind; indeed, we are getting further away than ever - as any impartial observer would recognise.

Then again, with your sneering references and "hit and run" sniping on this topic, it is plain for all to see that you are as far from impartiality as your team is from winning the World Cup - with or without the help of "the North"! :rolleyes:

P.S. Do you even know what a "Troll" is?

kingdomkerry

11/04/2008, 1:00 PM

Heh. It's obviously two separate countries- there's an international border separating them. And the two countries are just as clearly, two states.

Even Sinn Fein have largely dropped that foreign occupation nonsense. Northern Ireland is populated almost entirely by Irish people, the vast majority of whom can trace their Irish ancestry back for centuries. Their majority is manufactured only in the sense that they're both numerous (unionists have been ca 20% of the population of Ireland since the 19th century) and localised (in the area that's now NI). If the border was drawn differently- down the river Foyle say, with only Waterside in NI) the nationalist minority would be smaller than now.

Let's see your evidence for nationalists increasing to 51% and beyond. In the 2007 NIA election, it was 41.4% (SF 26.2%, SDLP 15.2%). To force the end of partition you'd need pretty much all the Alliance and Green voters, plus health campaigners and even a few unionists, to change sides. It isn't going to happen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2007/nielection/html/main.stm

Actually the last census is a better indicator It was 44% Catholic in 2001. It tends to go up about 2.5% every ten years. It is estimated on current trends that in 2025 approx there will be a catholic majority.

You may find these maps of interest.. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10.htm) That was from 1991.

This one is more detailed and based on the 2001 census. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/2001religionwardsni2.jpg (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/2001religionwardsni2.jpg)

These tables give a good indication of a trend over the last 40 years or so. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm) Please scroll down about a third of the way for a particularly interesting table .

paul_oshea

11/04/2008, 1:12 PM

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way, are by no means representative of the vast bulk of the Green and White Army; neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans - Protestant and Catholic - from making the atmosphere at WP as good as you'll get anywhere, a fact recognised by impartial observers both within and outwith NI. Indeed, the only people who are "intimidated" at Windsor these days are our opponents - in the nicest possible way!

Besides, if I were to bother searching through this Message Board, it wouldn't take me long to find occasional examples of misbehaviour by ROI fans. ("Today I was ashamed to be Irish", or somesuch?)

It would appear that you don't let that put you off following your team, nor should it, since the culprits there are equally unrepresentative of, and reviled by, the overwhelming majority of true and decent ROI fans.

Sadly, most, if not all, groups of supporters have their minority of ********s amongst their ranks. As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

The NI football team is nowhere near that stage, mind; indeed, we are getting further away than ever - as any impartial observer would recognise.

Then again, with your sneering references and "hit and run" sniping on this topic, it is plain for all to see that you are as far from impartiality as your team is from winning the World Cup - with or without the help of "the North"! :rolleyes:

P.S. Do you even know what a "Troll" is?

Everytime I read this type of related post of yours I get a little more agitated. The attitude you appear to have, is one of laissez faire, ah sure doesn't everyone have it, sure we don't listen to them anyhow so its fine, it doesn't really exist lets sweep it under the carpet. This is the same sort of attitude you get from EL supporters when it comes to hooligans, you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric.

Here, I think this is what you are looking for KK :D
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg

janeymac

11/04/2008, 1:12 PM

Unless you are saying the NI team should be scrapped due to low crowds - in which case the same should apply to a dozen other UEFA Members - what relevance does that have to the question of a combined Ireland team? Indeed, what business is it of yours whether we play our games in front of 100 fans or 100,000?

No, I'm not saying it should be scrapped because of low crowds. I just wondering why you are not seeking to promote the game fully, because, based on attendance figures for other sports in N. Ireland, NI Football should be able to attract a hell of a lot more spectators - and perhaps should be trying to cater for them with a national stadium.

You don't know what you're talking about. The fact that the National Rugby team attracts huge crowds 4 or 5 times a year - as much a social occasion as anything else - should not be allowed to distort the true picture.
Not only has Football many more registered players than rugby, but on an average weekend it attracts more spectators as well. Compare for example the crowds over the last five years of Cardiff Blues - playing in the top tier of Welsh rugby, inc. Europe with those of Cardiff City, a mediocre team in the second tier of a League outside their own country.
Welsh Rugby never advertises the fact that it is effectively confined to the Valleys and South Wales, unlike Football, whose reach encompasses the entire country.
But your analogy is useful in another way. With the top Welsh football clubs playing in England, the National team perenially unable ever to qualify for anything and crowds in decline, why not combine the Welsh and England football teams?
True, only Ryan Giggs and Neville Southall would have got a place in such a team in recent years; then again, only Jonny Evans would get a place in the combined Ireland team which its proponents advocate. And besides, England and Wales really ARE one country...:rolleyes:First of all, Welsh rugby has been 'messed' about a bit with professionalism - the Blues/Scarletts etc. are recent 'manufactured Regions/Clubs' - completely unlike the Four Professional Irish teams which have a very long history & tradition. Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support.

Do you ever think that some very talented protestant kid who does not remember the troubles and has been away from NI in Arsenal/Man Utd/Rangers academy) might think, "feck this, I think I'm a good player and I'd love some chance of getting to play in a World Cup to compete against the best. Whatever chances the ROI have, NI's are less. I think I'll declare for ROI, sure we're all Irish anyway, or so they keep telling me over here in Britain." ;)

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

Edit: Kid in Rangers Academy (or Celtic for that matter) would probably know all about the Troubles!

co. down green

11/04/2008, 1:15 PM

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way :rolleyes:

neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans :rolleyes:

A very 'impartial' description, eg?.;)

Wolfie

11/04/2008, 1:21 PM

janeymac

11/04/2008, 1:32 PM

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

Ulster Rugby would like to increase their capacity - encouraged by Leinster Rugby who are getting an average of 16/18 k since they moved to better facilities in the RDS. Most people think that Leinster Rugby is only supported by one postal code in Dublin!

As regards the GAA - take Munster as an example - similar population (slightly less) than NI and all sports fairly popular. Three stadia with 50,000 capacity plus numerous others with 30-40,000 capacity. The new Thomond Park (rugby) will have 26,000!

Kildare GAA (one county) are building a 25,000 capacity stadium in the middle of nowhere, that is inspired by Sunderland's Stadium of Light!

What I can't figure out is if the GAA / Rugby can attract these kind of numbers, the NI Football team should be able to do the same, considering they are participating in international competition.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 1:39 PM

Everytime I read this type of related post of yours I get a little more agitated. The attitude you appear to have, is one of laissez faire, ah sure doesn't everyone have it, sure we don't listen to them anyhow so its fine, it doesn't really exist lets sweep it under the carpet. This is the same sort of attitude you get from EL supporters when it comes to hooligans, you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric.

Here, I think this is what you are looking for KK :D
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg

Absolutely wrong. I am completely committed to initiatives like "Football For All" and "Sea of Green" whereby the authorities and fans between them have completely transformed the atmosphere at Windsor for internationals.

Indeed, the very existence of these campaigns is clear proof that we recognise we had (and still have) a problem. Otherwise, why would so many people be spending so much time and money on them?

However, when it comes to the "NS" chant, I really can't see what can easily and usefully be done to end this, other than by continuing the process of education and encouragement which has been so successful in every other aspect of crowd behaviour and which eventually may see an end to this particular issue.

In a way, the NS chant is the "Last Stand" of the Unthinking and the Knuckle Draggers. And I think they use it because they know it is hard to eradicate. Think about it. It is hardly illegal to shout it, nor could it reasonably be made so (freedom of speech etc).
And what else are the majority of fans who disapprove to do? Staying silent helps the shouters. Shouting something else only amplifies the effect (as well as disrespecting the Anthem). Pulling them up on it only causes a row - verbal, if not physical.
And even if it were considered to be in some way "incitement", how are Stewards/Police going to intervene to extract isolated individuals, surrounded by women, kids etc, from all three stands, on the basis of a two second chant which has long since ceased? What do you do if its kids who are chanting it - as often is the case?
In the end, to seek to confront it without a sound legal and practical basis for doing so would only give these idiots the publicity and "victimhood" they desire.
(An example of the above was the Neil Lennon booing incident, where a few hundred fans - possibly connected with Linfield/Rangers? - turned up to have a go at Lennon and achieved worldwide publicity for their efforts. Meanwhile, the next match, when they were nowhere to be seen and Lennon got cheered by the crowd for his every touch, went entirely unremarked by the media)

As a Poll on OWC currently demonstrates (90%+ condemning it), chanting NS is not acceptable, but I honestly believe that any "cure" would be worse than the "illness". Let them get it out of their system, endure the 90 seconds the anthem takes and just get on with the bloody game.

geysir

11/04/2008, 1:50 PM

I'm sure this is wrong. Ian Paisley- sectarian bigot and religious maniac that he is- makes no attempt to deny his Irishness.
I wouldn�t base my sureness on what Ian M�r is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can�t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.

osarusan

11/04/2008, 2:19 PM

I wouldn�t base my sureness on what Ian M�r is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can�t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.
Do you have any sources for those figures?

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 2:21 PM

No, I'm not saying it should be scrapped because of low crowds. I just wondering why you are not seeking to promote the game fully, because, based on attendance figures for other sports in N. Ireland, NI Football should be able to attract a hell of a lot more spectators - and perhaps should be trying to cater for them with a national stadium.

We are trying to promote the game, we are being successful and we do want a new National Stadium. Our problem is that the IFA (like the FA, SFA FAW and FAI) has nowhere nearly enough money to build a new stadium on our own. However, unlike those other Associations, we are unable to secure the equivalent Governmental assistance which has seen Wembley/Hampden/Millennium/Lansdowne re-built.
Instead, our political Lords and Masters in Whitehall determined, purely for political reasons, that we should be forced into the wrong stadium in the wrong location (Maze).
Therefore, if we are to overturn that, we have to be modest in our demands - inexpensive, 25-30k - otherwise the response from the backers of the Maze will ask why we want more, when recent crowds have often been so much lower. (They are only talking about 42k capacity for the Maze because the GAA demanded it)

First of all, Welsh rugby has been 'messed' about a bit with professionalism - the Blues/Scarletts etc. are recent 'manufactured Regions/Clubs' - completely unlike the Four Professional Irish teams which have a very long history & tradition. Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support.

Don't want to get side-tracked onto Welsh football/rugby. Suffice it to say, just ask anyone who knows the true situation in Wales, who isn't either a football-hating egg chaser or someone who has swallowed the WRFU spin, and they will tell you that football in Wales is still bigger than rugby, by every measure, except international crowds on half a dozen occasions a year. And that has always been the case, btw

Do you ever think that some very talented protestant kid who does not remember the troubles and has been away from NI in Arsenal/Man Utd/Rangers academy) might think, "feck this, I think I'm a good player and I'd love some chance of getting to play in a World Cup to compete against the best. Whatever chances the ROI have, NI's are less. I think I'll declare for ROI, sure we're all Irish anyway, or so they keep telling me over here in Britain." ;)

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

Edit: Kid in Rangers Academy (or Celtic for that matter) would probably know all about the Troubles!

There appears presently to be nothing preventing any NI youngster - Prod, RC or Athiest - from opting for ROI (for whatever motive). So how exactly are we "holding them back"? :confused:

In fact, if you think about it, there is absolutely nothing to stop such a kid, after the requisite three years residence in Manchester or Glasgow, from representing England or Scotland - both of whom offer a much better chance of career advancement than either Irish team.

But at the risk of straying (temporarily, I hope) from discussing a combined team to the issue of Eligibility for the two separate teams, I would not feel in the slightest bit guilty.

That is because I don't actually see which international team you represent as being a matter of "choice", any more than you can "choose" where you were born! The whole point about international football, as opposed to club football, is that you cannot just "pick and choose" who you play for.

This should especially be so (imo), to prevent mercenary considerations (money) prevailing over national pride when representing your country.

For myself, even if the best players from ROI or GB were suddenly made eligible for NI, so that we were guaranteed to qualify for every tournament, I would much rather do without, thanks very much, since it would no longer be "my" team, or "Our Wee Country".

Which, getting us back on-topic, is all I really want - win, lose or draw.

P.S. If ypou look at our record of qualifying for World Cup Finals, it is every bit as good as ROI's - arguably better, since we have also made it to the last 8 (1958) and last 12 (1982).

P.P.S. David Healy was formerly a talented kid in the MU Academy, who was just coming up to 23 when ROI went to Japan/Korea in 2002. I can guarantee you that had Mick McCarthy offered him a place on the plane, there would have been zero chance of his ever accepting. Which is precisely that sort of dedication which transforms him from a journeyman for his club to a star for his country. I don't ever want to see that removed from international football.

I wouldn�t base my sureness on what Ian M�r is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can�t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.

Please do not characterise the NI football community as a "Unionist" one, or that I see it as being so.

Whilst there is obviously a crossover, not all NI football fans are Unionists, just as, indeed, not all Unionists are NI football fans.

So by all means debate the future of the NI football team - I will happily join in. However, if you want to discuss the future of Irish Unionism, please take it elsewhere.

P.S. I didn't need you to make any points for me to "cop onto"; I was quite capable of arriving at my presnt stance unaided, thanks very much.

Gather round

11/04/2008, 2:31 PM

Actually the last census is a better indicator It was 44% Catholic in 2001. It tends to go up about 2.5% every ten years. It is estimated on current trends that in 2025 approx there will be a catholic majority

No, recent voting behavior is the best indication of future voting behavior (which is what will determine any end to the border). Not all those from Catholic background in NI vote for nationalist parties. In towns like Carrickfergus or Bangor, nationalist parties share of the vote is significantly less than the Catholic population. As I said, if nationalists only got 42% last year, that isn't going to transfer into a majority unless 8% of the entire poll suddenly starts voting for them. Which isn't going to happen.A significant, if small, electorate in NI is heartily fed up with orange-green politics (like many readers of this forum, possibly ;) )

The maps you quote are interesting, but don't contradict any of the above.

you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric

Chill, Paul ;) I think NI fans have done this, ie recognised the problem and tried to do something about it. Without getting too rhetorical on ye, like.

Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support

As Ealing said above, the club game in Wales has long attracted modest crowds in comparison with international games. Swansea City attract significantly more than the Ospreys even while in English Division 3.

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

No, we aren't holding back anyone's potential. It's a pointless question.

Ulster Rugby would like to increase their capacity

Their support has rejected the Maze white elephant. Where's your evidence of any other plans apart from modest improvements to Ravenhill?

The new Thomond Park (rugby) will have 26,000!...What I can't figure out is if the GAA / Rugby can attract these kind of numbers, the NI Football team should be able to do the same, considering they are participating in international competition

Er...NI fans are arguing for just that, a stadium of similar size to the planned Thomond refurb. What's your point?

The "substate identity" is Northern Irish

Let's not get too bogged down sociologically. It's still Irish, even if many of them consider it subservient to Britishness and that obviously irritates nationalists. We're all Irish, ye might as well accept it. BTW I was quoting Paisley sr both as as a stereotype who you might assume to be anti-irish, but at the same time someone who makes no attempt to hide his Irishness.

Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak

Many may consider their part of Ireland a region/ province of Britain. So what, it and they are still Irish.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 2:45 PM

:rolleyes:

A very 'impartial' description, eg?.;)

I am an NI fan, so of course I am "partial". But you are confusing "impartiality" with "fairness". From my experience, I am entitled to comment on my fellow NI fans and when I characterise some of them as unthinking, but the rest as decent, I think that is fair comment.

What I took exception to with your post was your commenting on a set of fans (NI) of which you clearly have no knowledge, in a disparaging and stereotypical way. That is hardly fair, but it is partial (imo)

P.S. Still no answer to my question as to when you were last at an NI match, if ever. :rolleyes:

osarusan

11/04/2008, 2:58 PM

As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

It's more trouble than it's worth to stop fans singing "No Surrender"? More trouble for who?

and when I characterise some of them as unthinking, but the rest as decent, I think that is fair comment.

"Unthinking" - that's a bit of a cop out when describing these fans, I'd say. Do you really think that's the adjective that best describes them?

EG, I agree with you regarding the issue of a "United Ireland" team (which would be a total misnomer), but you do gloss over actions by NI fans to certain degree.

Drumcondra 69er

11/04/2008, 3:06 PM

That is because I don't actually see which international team you represent as being a matter of "choice", any more than you can "choose" where you were born! The whole point about international football, as opposed to club football, is that you cannot just "pick and choose" who you play for.

P.S. If ypou look at our record of qualifying for World Cup Finals, it is every bit as good as ROI's - arguably better, since we have also made it to the last 8 (1958) and last 12 (1982).

1. Not a fan of the parentage rule so? To quote a famous English (Irish?) man 'Being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' (I'm sure Jesus was delighted to hear that!)

2. While we've qualified for the same amount of World cups this is of course nonsense, the very fact that we've qualified for the second phase of every World cup we've been in whereas you only garnered a point against Algeria while going out in 1986 would dictate that. We've won more games, drawn more and lost less then you and have a a better record by any possible measure. Even counting the win against Romania and loss against Spain as draws we've still a better record.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 3:59 PM

It's more trouble than it's worth to stop fans singing "No Surrender"? More trouble for who?

"Unthinking" - that's a bit of a cop out when describing these fans, I'd say. Do you really think that's the adjective that best describes them?

EG, I agree with you regarding the issue of a "United Ireland" team (which would be a total misnomer), but you do gloss over actions by NI fans to certain degree.

What I meant was, it would cause more trouble than it would cure, since it would invariably lead to tension, scuffles and likely much worse, to try and eject a few hundred people for a two-word chant before a game.
And even if it could be done, it would inevitably lead to them assembling their mates in numbers for the next game and doing even worse.
And there is no way you could expect Stewards to deal with such an escalation, it would need Police assistance. Most likely, the Police will judge that it is in the greater good not to proceed.
And even if they did, they and the IFA would be taken to Court, since it is breaking no law, or regulation, for someone to use the words "No Surrender" in any environment, public or private.
Even a Police charge of "behaviour liable to lead to a breech of the peace" would have no chance of succeeding, since it has never disturbed the peace before.
Let's be practical here, half the fans aren't even in their seats, or are downstairs in the bogs, whilst the Anthem is being played. NS is two seconds during a 90 second song, which however objectionable, need not actually threaten anyone, or otherwise spoil their enjoyment of the day. Which is not to say I condone it - quite the contrary.

As for those who do it, in my experience, half of them are kids who don't even think about what they're doing - hence my Pavlov's Dogs/knee jerk reaction. As for the other half, I have no trouble describing them as idiots, even bigots, but that isn't going to change them, is it?

And if this appears to you to be glossing over it, ask yourself this. What has your team done, e.g. to prevent individuals adding on "Up the Ra" to TFOA, or to stop them booing Rangers players at Lansdowne, or to prevent the provocative behaviour when Israel came to Dublin?

And before anyone leaps in, I am not by any means tarring the overwhelming majority of decent ROI fans with that brush, nor detracting from the willingness of your authorities to deal with it. I am merely pointing out some examples with which you may be familiar to demonstrate just how difficult some issues are, and also to put them in their proper perspective (i.e. serious in themselves, but not representative of the true, wider picture)

Plus, when I have always tried to be frank about our shortcomings, I get a bit fed up constantly having to defend ourselves to the nth degree, when the real story of NI fans' behaviour these days is an overwhelmingly positive one.

paul_oshea

11/04/2008, 4:05 PM

Absolutely wrong. I am completely committed to initiatives like "Football For All" and "Sea of Green" whereby the authorities and fans between them have completely transformed the atmosphere at Windsor for internationals.

Indeed, the very existence of these campaigns is clear proof that we recognise we had (and still have) a problem. Otherwise, why would so many people be spending so much time and money on them?

However, when it comes to the "NS" chant, I really can't see what can easily and usefully be done to end this, other than by continuing the process of education and encouragement which has been so successful in every other aspect of crowd behaviour and which eventually may see an end to this particular issue.

In a way, the NS chant is the "Last Stand" of the Unthinking and the Knuckle Draggers. And I think they use it because they know it is hard to eradicate. Think about it. It is hardly illegal to shout it, nor could it reasonably be made so (freedom of speech etc).
And what else are the majority of fans who disapprove to do? Staying silent helps the shouters. Shouting something else only amplifies the effect (as well as disrespecting the Anthem). Pulling them up on it only causes a row - verbal, if not physical.
And even if it were considered to be in some way "incitement", how are Stewards/Police going to intervene to extract isolated individuals, surrounded by women, kids etc, from all three stands, on the basis of a two second chant which has long since ceased? What do you do if its kids who are chanting it - as often is the case?
In the end, to seek to confront it without a sound legal and practical basis for doing so would only give these idiots the publicity and "victimhood" they desire.
(An example of the above was the Neil Lennon booing incident, where a few hundred fans - possibly connected with Linfield/Rangers? - turned up to have a go at Lennon and achieved worldwide publicity for their efforts. Meanwhile, the next match, when they were nowhere to be seen and Lennon got cheered by the crowd for his every touch, went entirely unremarked by the media)

As a Poll on OWC currently demonstrates (90%+ condemning it), chanting NS is not acceptable, but I honestly believe that any "cure" would be worse than the "illness". Let them get it out of their system, endure the 90 seconds the anthem takes and just get on with the bloody game.

Its happened at parkhead and away on tours, also fans policing fans. Its quite simple. If you are saying that your own people cant control them then this might be the actual problem

Gather I think you missed the point, I know about the initiatives and so and so, thats not what I was getting at. EG though, was clearer in his own statement, though his conclusion still came back to the same point I was getting at. He simply states "ah sure just let them" :rolleyes: , which is rather sad considering he spent 4 paras before that explaining all the "good" he beleives in.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 4:25 PM

1. Not a fan of the parentage rule so? To quote a famous English (Irish?) man 'Being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' (I'm sure Jesus was delighted to hear that!)

Jeez, do I have to spell everything out?
When I pointed out that no-one can choose where he was born, I took it as understood that neither can he choose where his parents (or grandparents) are born. :rolleyes:

2. While we've qualified for the same amount of World cups this is of course nonsense, the very fact that we've qualified for the second phase of every World cup we've been in whereas you only garnered a point against Algeria while going out in 1986 would dictate that. We've won more games, drawn more and lost less then you and have a a better record by any possible measure. Even counting the win against Romania and loss against Spain as draws we've still a better record.

Wrong.
ROI have qualified for 3 Finals, as have NI.
ROI failed to get beyond the Group stage once (1994), as did NI (1986)
ROI got to the last 8 once (1990), as did NI (1958)
ROI got to the last 16 in 2002, NI got to the last 12 in 1982
ROI have won 2 games in WC Finals, NI have won 3.

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).

danonion

11/04/2008, 4:29 PM

Jeez, do I have to spell everything out?
When I pointed out that no-one can choose where he was born, I took it as understood that neither can he choose where his parents (or grandparents) are born. :rolleyes:

Wrong.
ROI have qualified for 3 Finals, as have NI.
ROI failed to get beyond the Group stage once (1994), as did NI (1986)
ROI got to the last 8 once (1990), as did NI (1958)
ROI got to the last 16 in 2002, NI got to the last 12 in 1982
ROI have won 2 games in WC Finals, NI have won 3.

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).

Call me crazy, but I seem to remember Ireland playing Holland in the 1994 World Cup round of 16....

youngirish

11/04/2008, 4:35 PM

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).
The important point here that you always seem to miss in your posts is that all your appearances in the World Cup are far in the past and you haven't looked like qualifying for one since 1986.

Your world cup record in anything that might resemble the modern game has been dismal besides a lucky win in 1982 that anyone watching the game could scarcely believe you managed to pull off.

kingdomkerry

11/04/2008, 4:46 PM

Agreed. Id be very suprised if i saw NI qualify for a WC in my lifetime. Ireland on the other hand will always be there and there abouts.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 4:56 PM

Its happened at parkhead and away on tours, also fans policing fans. Its quite simple. If you are saying that your own people cant control them then this might be the actual problem

Gather I think you missed the point, I know about the initiatives and so and so, thats not what I was getting at. EG though, was clearer in his own statement, though his conclusion still came back to the same point I was getting at. He simply states "ah sure just let them" :rolleyes: , which is rather sad considering he spent 4 paras before that explaining all the "good" he beleives in.

Oh ffs! I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I despise the people who, with their moronic behaviour (e.g. NS), give our detractors an excuse to denigrate us for every bloody problem which society throws at us.
If I thought there was an effective way of preventing this without causing even greater trouble, then I would support it.
More to the point, if I thought that it was so serious in its effect that the only way to deal with it would be to close the stands completely and play behind closed doors, then I would. But it isn't. It's a deplorable, 2 second knee-jerk reaction by a few cretins, of the type to be found in every football support, including yours.
I have been to NI matches, home and away, with friends of both denominations and none. Invariably, it is the Prods who get more worked up/embarrassed about this NS issue, since the RC fans can see the bigger picture.

And that bigger picture is that huge amounts of good work is being done to make the matchday experience as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Moreover, that work is increasingly being successful, which is why it has been recognised internationally by several respected, credible and impartial authorities. This despite it being a Work in Progress, which may never be 100% effective.

In the meantime, we will endure the jibes and sniping of people like Kingdom Kerry and Co.Down Green, since we expect little better. But I would hope that people like you might show a little more understanding of what is happening, instead of picking up on every single transgression, no matter how relatively unimportant and/or intractable.

I was once amongst a group of NI fans exiting the East Stand of Landsdowne Road who were pelted with stones by a gang of hoolies who were waiting for us, with not a Garda to be seen anywhere (they were too busy keeping the NI terrace fans behind, with dogs and riot gear etc).

I don't hold that against the average ROI fan, or even against the Gardai, since I accept that sometimes these things happen. But neither do I bang on about it endlessly in order to excoriate ROI fans, or in some way exonerate ourselves for our own shortcomings.

If there is ever to be a truly "United" Ireland football team, it is going to require mutual respect and understanding from BOTH sets of fans, not just the one. Sadly, if my experience on this Message Board is in any way representative, ROI fans have at least as far to travel down that road as we do.

P.S. For all those inspired by the above rant to respond by bleating on about "Neil Lennon bla bla bla", don't bother, we've heard it all before.:mad:

osarusan

11/04/2008, 5:02 PM

If there is ever to be a truly "United" Ireland football team, it is going to require mutual respect and understanding from BOTH sets of fans, not just the one. Sadly, if my experience on this Message Board is in any way representative, ROI fans have at least as far to travel down that road as we do.

well said that man.

Forget about results from 20 years ago, and which players wold be good enough to make the team, and what percent of the population of Northern Ireland is whatever religion - the above quote is the key point in making any justifiable case for a "United Ireland" team.

EalingGreen

11/04/2008, 5:12 PM

Call me crazy, but I seem to remember Ireland playing Holland in the 1994 World Cup round of 16....

My mistake - in quickly scanning the record, I didn't notice that you had qualified for the last 16. I think I overlooked it due to your having finished 3rd in your qualifying Group.

Talking of which, NI have won one of their Groups (1982), something which ROI cannot claim. And we've still won more matches in WC Finals...;)

Your world cup record in anything that might resemble the modern game has been dismal besides a lucky win in 1982 that anyone watching the game could scarcely believe you managed to pull off.

If you really mean the "modern" game, then you might wish to refer to the most recent competitive matches (Euro2008), when NI came a sight closer to qualifying than ROI.

And as for the next competition, WC2010, I am as happy with our prospects of qualifying (possible, but unlikely) as I would were I an ROI fan (possible, but unlikely).

And even if, to bring this thread back on-topic, our chances of Qualification were to be improved by throwing our lot in with ROI, I think I'd rather not, thank you very much - success is so much the sweeter when you've earned it by your own efforts, don't you think?

Not Brazil

11/04/2008, 6:28 PM

Call me mad like, but I'm not sure that the constant, broadbrushing, denegration of Northern Ireland fans by a not insignificant number of ROI fans, in any way advances the prospects of a truly unified team on this island.

Heaven knows, it might actually account for some people disrespecting the National Anthem of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with their (extremely insecure) "No Surrender" add on.

Oh - and whatever Northern Ireland acheive (or don't) on the pitch - I'll be supporting them.

I have no interest whatsoever in merging with anyone else - be that an All Ireland team, or an All United Kingdom team.

If it was only about supporting who wins international football matches, I'd support Brazil.

But it's not - it's about identity and belonging.

I was born in Northern Ireland - funnily enough, I therefore support Northern Ireland.:cool:

co. down green

11/04/2008, 6:37 PM

In the meantime, we will endure the jibes and sniping of people like Co.Down Green, since we expect little better

Who's we ?

eg, pick your teddy bear out of the corner and calm down, you've had a long day on foot.ie, maybe its time to take a break from the keyboard.:rolleyes:

Not Brazil

11/04/2008, 6:40 PM

Actually the last census is a better indicator It was 44% Catholic in 2001. It tends to go up about 2.5% every ten years. It is estimated on current trends that in 2025 approx there will be a catholic majority.

Trust you to introduce base sectarianism into the discussion.:rolleyes:

Can you not get it into your head that it's nothing to do with where people say their prayers?

I doubt 44% of the total population in Northern Ireland actually attend any church regularly.:rolleyes:

ifk101

11/04/2008, 7:26 PM

geysir

11/04/2008, 8:12 PM

Do you have any sources for those figures?

Review of 3 surveys on national identity in the UK
Constitutional change and identity (http://www.institute-of-governance.org/forum/Leverhulme/briefing_pdfs/IoG_Briefing_16.pdf)

NI surveys
Ni Life and Times Survey (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity)
That should get you to IDENTITY

surveys I looked at were
IDENTITY: National identity
IDENT1: How would you describe yourself?
IDENT2: What is the second most important way you would describe yourself?
IDENT3: What is the third most important way you would describe yourself?

Interestingly even on the 3rd choice, to Protestants, being Irish was not amongst their selected choices.

Please do not characterise the NI football community as a "Unionist" one, or that I see it as being so.
Whilst there is obviously a crossover, not all NI football fans are Unionists, just as, indeed, not all Unionists are NI football fans.
Unionist as in maintaining the allegiance to the UK. Unionist as in the identity. Maybe Irish Unionist is a better description.
I am not meaning UUP or DUP Or PUP, as in the political form of Unionism.
It's a generalization which you will have to live with, the key symbol the pre match song, is God Save the Queen. The most used flag symbol is that Ulster Flag with the crown on it.
The team is certainly mixed. The active support much less so.
I see no general inaccuracies with my statement.
"(Irish)Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team in the event of political unity".