O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[carloz]

Im sure if it were to happen Northern ireland would want and probably demand a certain quota of their players be in the squad(ala South Africa rugby). Now i know Northern Ireland are going through a purple patch for the opast 2-3 years but simply put their squad is very very poor. You could count on one hand the amount that should get in their squad, and only Evans would start. However i would like if we could bottle some of the attitude the northern Irish players have and give it to our fellas

[Gather round]

NI 12-6-2-4-20
RoI 12-4-5-3-17

Can't argue with the league tables, can ye?

The whole idea is a fantasy, so why not indulge yourself that there'll be 22 RoI players in the notional squad?

PS Sanchez and Worthy may be a pair of surly fcukers, but they've persuaded enough of the players that international football's a step up. For Trap, we'll have to wait and see...

[geysir]

Fantasy is what has kept us going all these years.

[Kingdom]

An all-Island league I'd love to see but I'm happy with the Republic and Northern Ireland as seperate teams. regardless of which players would be selected I could only see their being problems.

[youngirish]

NI 12-6-2-4-20
RoI 12-4-5-3-17

Can't argue with the league tables, can ye?


More to do with the fact that you were being managed by reasonably competent individuals with previous managerial experience at a decent level compared to our village idiot and part time Walsall tea boy than to do with any comparision in the respective abilities of the players.

Put it this way Sanchez bought the NI senior first team and Fulham have consequently become a dead cert for relegation. Keane bought the entire ROI B team and they are still 13 points better off.

Under Trap we'll be far more competitive than NI, of this I'm sure, even if (as I suspect) he turns out to be not quite the miracle worker that many are expecting.

[EalingGreen]

In 'The boys in green' (1997), Sean Ryan talked about an All-Ireland team being 'the dream of every genuine Irish football fan.'

If you ever get the chance, can you find out from him where I'm going wrong? Not "genuine"? Not "Irish"? Or simply not a "fan"? :rolleyes:




The dogs on the street know it would be better to have an all ireland team. Its called synergy (2+2=5)


Really? Try telling that to the Germans, then. In the 17-odd years before West Germany (FRG) and East Germany (GDR) teams were reunited in 1991, West Germany's record was significantly better than the 17 years since.

For instance, in the five World Cup Finals Tournaments from 1974, West Germany won it twice and were Runners-Up twice, finishing in 6th place in 1978. Whereas, in the four WC Finals since, the best they managed was Runner-Up once (2002), finishing 3rd (2006), 5th (1994) and 7th (1998).

The story is only marginally better for the European Championships. From 1972, they won it twice (1972 and 1980), finished Runner-up in 1976, reached the Semis in 1988 and failed to get out of their Group once (1984).
Whereas, since re-unification, although they were Runner-Up in 1992 and were Winners in 1996, they've failed to get out of their Group in the two Finals Tournaments since (2000 and 2004).

You might also care to look at the recent record of the constituent parts of the former Yugoslavia (Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia etc) and compare their relative successes with that of the unified Yugoslavia prior to the early 1990's. (And be careful little Montenegro don't bite you on the arse as well)




I would also agree with your opinon of supporters of the NI football team, by reading some of the crap that their supporters post on here it is no wonder our crowd in the north would'nt touch them with a barge pole!!


So do you want a "united" team, or not? :rolleyes:


There's no sporting justification for an united Ireland team. Bar one or maybe two exceptions, the current NI squad of players would only marginally improve our squad.


You sure know how to sweet-talk us, don't you? Anyhow, you might want to study this:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html


P.S. You're not Eddie O'Sullivan in disguise, by any chance? ;)


Im sure if it were to happen Northern ireland would want and probably demand a certain quota of their players be in the squad(ala South Africa rugby).

Just about the worst idea I've seen yet on this whole thorny subject. If you were trying to find a way of pis sing off as many people as possible, I doubt if you could do better.


Now i know Northern Ireland are going through a purple patch for the opast 2-3 years but simply put their squad is very very poor. You could count on one hand the amount that should get in their squad, and only Evans would start.

Risible - but i won't rise to it...;)


However i would like if we could bottle some of the attitude the northern Irish players have and give it to our fellas

Ah, that old chestnut - "attitude". What would you say to those who disparaged Jack Charlton's players as being "poor", having to make up for their lack of quality with lashings of "attitude"? :rolleyes:

Has it never occurred to you that perhaps NI's players aren't quite so poor as some people allege, and some of the ROI players aren't so good as others claim?

In my experience, players don't become good players because they are confident; rather, they become confident because they are good. And so long as Worthington doesn't screw things up, we have a squad of (mostly) good young players who have the potential to get better.


More to do with the fact that you were being managed by reasonably competent individuals with previous managerial experience at a decent level compared to our village idiot and part time Walsall tea boy than to do with any comparision in the respective abilities of the players.


A bad manager can screw up good players to make them look bad, but a good manager can't make bad players good - at least not over any consistent period.



Put it this way Sanchez bought the NI senior first team and Fulham have consequently become a dead cert for relegation. Keane bought the entire ROI B team and they are still 13 points better off.


Sanchez bought precisely four NI players. He had more Americans in his squad of 26(?) ffs! And his record over the 17 League games he was given was better than that of Hodgson, who has had them for 16 League games and has only picked one NI player regularly.

As for Keane, he had three times the net budget to spend over Sanchez, as well as a whole season more in charge. Granted, he's bought a lot of ROI players and some of them have done very well. But he has discarded a fair few, or isn't picking several more. Speaking of which, is Paul McShane injured? I only ask because I see some young lad called Evans is playing rather well for Sunderland at Centre Half...



Under Trap we'll be far more competitive than NI, of this I'm sure, even if (as I suspect) he turns out to be not quite the miracle worker that many are expecting.

You ought to be a good deal more competitive than NI, if for no other reason than that you have a rather bigger squad of decent players than us. But I don't see quite such a difference in quality between your First XI and ours.

[kingdomkerry]

Oh shut up. Ye are useless. Think ye are great cause ye had a couple of lucky results last time. One or two of the NI team would make an All Ireland team at present. Still, those one or two could be the difference between everyone in Ireland getting the chance to go to the world cup or everyone staying at home.

I dont expect it to happen over night cause NI supporters are too politically motivated.

In the mean time, its important to get an AI league up and running and ensuring that our boys in the 6 counties who are good enough to play for us dont even consider playing with the wrong side.

Maybe we already have a United Ireland team!!

[gustavo]

Oh shut up. Ye are useless.
Think ye are great cause ye had a couple of lucky results last time.
we were the ones lucky enough to get last minute goals against San Marino and Cyprus to prevent defeats by those two


I dont expect it to happen over night cause NI supporters are too politically motivated. .
Or maybe they like having their own team ,



In the mean time, its important to get an AI league up and running and ensuring that our boys in the 6 counties who are good enough to play for us dont even consider playing with the wrong side..
Anyone currently good enough or not good enough to play for us from the North can already choose to do so. If they want to play for the North then it's hardly the wrong side in their eyes.

[micls]

I dont expect it to happen over night cause NI supporters are too politically motivated.

This is what I find funny. They're politically motivated because they dont want an AI team but your not politically motivated in wanting one. As you said they wouldnt add much to our pool of players so what's the point if its not political?



In the mean time, its important to get an AI league up and running and ensuring that our boys in the 6 counties who are good enough to play for us dont even consider playing with the wrong side.

Our boys? What do you mean by that? Catholics? Republicans?

Surely its for them to decide which is the 'wrong side'? Or do you think they shouldnt have a choice at all?

Thats a very political post for someone who's giving out about NI fans being politically motivated.



Maybe we already have a United Ireland team!!

Atm anyone who wants to play for us can. So what exactly is the problem? Not happy with having the option of every player on the island?

If only one set of fans want this merging, its never going to happen and rightly so. And thats before you worry about what UEFA and FIFA think.

[kingdomkerry]

This is what I find funny. They're politically motivated because they dont want an AI team but your not politically motivated in wanting one. As you said they wouldnt add much to our pool of players so what's the point if its not political?



Our boys? What do you mean by that? Catholics? Republicans?

Surely its for them to decide which is the 'wrong side'? Or do you think they shouldnt have a choice at all?

Thats a very political post for someone who's giving out about NI fans being politically motivated.



Atm anyone who wants to play for us can. So what exactly is the problem? Not happy with having the option of every player on the island?

If only one set of fans want this merging, its never going to happen and rightly so. And thats before you worry about what UEFA and FIFA think.

Get off the moral highground will you ya plonk

Is Martin O'Neill or Jennings or George Best politically motivated for wanting an All Ireland team.

Our boys = this is an Ireland forum, there are many people from the north who support us and post on here

Ive always argued they should have the choice, not that I could understand it if they picked the sectarian team on the island.

It will never happen? Do you know this? Can you see the future? Will be interesting to see what happens in about 20 years when the majority of the population in the north are Ireland suppporters.

[micls]

Get off the moral highground will you ya plonk

Moral highground? So my opinion is somehow being on a moral highground.
Well done on resorting to insults too ;)


Is Martin O'Neill or Jennings or George Best politically motivated for wanting an All Ireland team.
You'd have to ask them. I was referring to your post


Our boys = this is an Ireland forum, there are many people from the north who support us and post on here

But how are they 'our boys' if they choose to play for N.I. What makes them 'our boys' and how would someone be choosing the 'wrong side' as you said?


Ive always argued they should have the choice, not that I could understand it if they picked the sectarian team on the island.
Who's 'they' here? Anyone living on the island?

We're back to the 'Lets insult the other teams fans' and call them sectarian. That doesnt stregthen your argument. The strides the NI fans have made to clean up their support is well documented and is to be respected. We have plenty of clowns in our own support


It will never happen? Do you know this? Can you see the future? Will be interesting to see what happens in about 20 years when the majority of the population in the north are Ireland suppporters.



Now go read the post again.

I said 'while only one set of fans want it' it wont happen. I didnt say never.

If the majority of the population in the North wanted an AI team in 20 then obviously it wouldnt be only one set of fans wanting it, and would be a different situation.

But even then, if 51% want to support/play for the Republic, nothing is stopping them from doing so. So why take the team from the other 49%(for example) if they still want it?

It doesnt make any sense to me tbh.

[ifk101]

You sure know how to sweet-talk us, don't you? Anyhow, you might want to study this:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html

P.S. You're not Eddie O'Sullivan in disguise, by any chance? ;)

NI's start eleven against Georgia was as follows;

Taylor, Baird, Hughes, Craigan, Evans, Gillespie, Johnson, Davis, Elliott, Healy, Lafferty.

Evans would start for us as we are in desperate need of a left full. Otherwise none of the players in that team are a clear improvement on what we already have to suggest that an united Ireland team would perform better on the world stage.

But please highlight where I'm wrong.

[kingdomkerry]

Moral highground? So my opinion is somehow being on a moral highground.
Well done on resorting to insults too ;)

You'd have to ask them. I was referring to your post


But how are they 'our boys' if they choose to play for N.I. What makes them 'our boys' and how would someone be choosing the 'wrong side' as you said?

Who's 'they' here? Anyone living on the island?

We're back to the 'Lets insult the other teams fans' and call them sectarian. That doesnt stregthen your argument. The strides the NI fans have made to clean up their support is well documented and is to be respected. We have plenty of clowns in our own support


Now go read the post again.

I said 'while only one set of fans want it' it wont happen. I didnt say never.

If the majority of the population in the North wanted an AI team in 20 then obviously it wouldnt be only one set of fans wanting it, and would be a different situation.

But even then, if 51% want to support/play for the Republic, nothing is stopping them from doing so. So why take the team from the other 49%(for example) if they still want it?

It doesnt make any sense to me tbh.

Climbing higher i see. Sorry if you think being called a plonk is an insult. Dont cry little girl;)

[micls]

Climbing higher i see.
I see you can't actually address the points again.....
Kepp going on about that moral highground though



Sorry if you think being called a plonk is an insult.
Nah, it's a lovely endearment....



Dont cry little girl;)


I suppose I'm little enough....crying though? Do you understand what a forum discussion is?

Look lad, either debate the points and back up your argument or don't. Tbh I'm not too bothered either way.

But Im only interested in discussing and debating opinions on here, not some tit for tat rubbish about moral highground and the like. So unless you want to disagree with the points I made Ill leave it there.

[carloz]

But I don't see quite such a difference in quality between your First XI and ours.

You honestly believe that. You honeslty believe there isnt much of a difference between you best 11

Taylor, Craigain, Hughes, McCauley, Evans, Gillespie, Clingan, Davis, Brunt, Healy and Feeney (give or take a couple)

is much the same in quality as

Given, Kelly, Dunne, O'Shea, Kilbane, McGeady, A. Reid, S.Reid, Hunt, Doyle and Keane
:confused::confused::confused:
Do me a bloody favour. Take off the tinted glasses. Yes you have been going through a good phase, but with the level of players of your disposal it will not last. Yes you are ahead of us for a number of months in the FIFA rankings....big whoop. We have been at our lowest level since the beginning of McCarthys days recently( and even they were arguably better). I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

[kingdomkerry]

Moral highground? So my opinion is somehow being on a moral highground.


Well done on resorting to insults too ;)
You'd have to ask them. I was referring to your post

But how are they 'our boys' if they choose to play for N.I. What makes them 'our boys' and how would someone be choosing the 'wrong side' as you said?
Who's 'they' here? Anyone living on the island?
We're back to the 'Lets insult the other teams fans' and call them sectarian. That doesnt stregthen your argument. The strides the NI fans have made to clean up their support is well documented and is to be respected. We have plenty of clowns in our own support

Now go read the post again.
I said 'while only one set of fans want it' it wont happen. I didnt say never.
If the majority of the population in the North wanted an AI team in 20 then obviously it wouldnt be only one set of fans wanting it, and would be a different situation.
But even then, if 51% want to support/play for the Republic, nothing is stopping them from doing so. So why take the team from the other 49%(for example) if they still want it?
It doesnt make any sense to me tbh.


Your opinon is not you being on the moral highground. However when you are acting all high and mighty its a different story read your post again.
Because I aspire to an All Ireland team I am politically motivated yeah? Then do you think that Best, Jennings, O'Neill are politically motivated too as well as about 80% (guess) of the entire population of Ireland?
"Our boys" I explained what i meant by this in my last post. Read it slowly this time
You asked me a question relating to the eligibility row. I answered it and refered to the people who have the choice as "they" who did you think i was reffering to. Maybe your very young or something, or just not the sharpest tool in the box.
You might believe that all is rosy down winsor way, I dont. The Neil Lennon debacle was not too long ago.
I think you'll find that demographics will determine that there will be a nationalist majority in around 20 years time. Im not talking about a poll or anything.

You honestly believe that. You honeslty believe there isnt much of a difference between you best 11

Taylor, Craigain, Hughes, McCauley, Evans, Gillespie, Clingan, Davis, Brunt, Healy and Feeney (give or take a couple)

is much the same in quality as

Given, Kelly, Dunne, O'Shea, Kilbane, McGeady, A. Reid, S.Reid, Hunt, Doyle and Keane
:confused::confused::confused:
Do me a bloody favour. Take off the tinted glasses. Yes you have been going through a good phase, but with the level of players of your disposal it will not last. Yes you are ahead of us for a number of months in the FIFA rankings....big whoop. We have been at our lowest level since the beginning of McCarthys days recently( and even they were arguably better). I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

What about Duff and Stepen Ireland

[micls]

Your opinon is not you being on the moral highground. However when you are acting all high and mighty its a different story read your post again.
Example?


Because I aspire to an All Ireland team I am politically motivated yeah?
Not necessarily, but given your comments about 'our boys' the post was political.

You're the one who claimed the NI fans were politically motivated becuase they didnt want one. I dont see the difference.

Why exactly do you want an AI team?


Then do you think that Best, Jennings, O'Neill are politically motivated too as well as about 80% (guess) of the entire population of Ireland?

I cant comment on the 3 above but a lot of people I have spoken to in favour of an AI see it as a step towards a united Ireland.

As many said above, they dont add an awful lot to our player pool, so what reason is there for wanting 2 football teams to come together?


"Our boys" I explained what i meant by this in my last post. Read it slowly this time

I did.



Our boys = this is an Ireland forum, there are many people from the north who support us and post on here

Again if your talking about people who support NI then they wouldnt eb people that are lining out for NI. So how exactly would anyone be picking the 'wrong side'



You asked me a question relating to the eligibility row. I answered it and refered to the people who have the choice as "they" who did you think i was reffering to.
I said nothing about the eligibilty row. Im talking about 'them' having their own team. Why shouldn't they have their own team if thats what they want?


Maybe your very young or something, or just not the sharpest tool in the box.

Back to the insults. Well done. Lets try something- go one post simply answering the points without trying to insult me.


You might believe that all is rosy down winsor way, I dont. The Neil Lennon debacle was not too long ago.
I never said everything was rosy. But things werent rosy down in Turners cross for the u21 match against england either. As I said everyone has clowns.

They are working hard to eradicate theirs. It is wrong imo to brand the entire support as sectarian given the work they are doing



I think you'll find that geographics will determine that there will be a nationalist majority in around 20 years time. Im not talking about a poll or anything.


Again I dont see how its relevant. Even if there is. Whats the problem with them supporting ROI if they want(or NI) and leaving the NI team for anyone who wants to play for/support them.

I just dont see the point in trying to force NI supporters(theoretically) into having an AI team. As it stands anyone on the island can play/support who they want. Why change it to a system where some people would consider themselves to be losing their team.

As an example: If City and Cobh were talking about merging to make 1 team in Cork. I dont think many City fans would have a problem, as the bigger team they'd be mostly squad players and it would boost our attendances which would be good.

However I would imagine Cobh fans would be vehemently against it, for the same reasons real NI football fans are against an AI. They would be losing their team, their own identity and being practically 'swallowed up' by the bigger team.

[Gather round]

Do me a bloody favour. Take off the tinted glasses. Yes you have been going through a good phase, but with the level of players of your disposal it will not last. Yes you are ahead of us for a number of months in the FIFA rankings....big whoop. We have been at our lowest level since the beginning of McCarthys days recently( and even they were arguably better). I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it

Good rant, but calm down. We are quite clearly better than you, as measured by comparable 12-game leagues over two seasons. We have been improving for four years, since the EC 2004 lowpoint. You have been mediocre (by your own previously higher standards) for six. It's not impossible both trends might continue awhile yet.

Our basic problem is one of numbers. We have only 40% of the players available to you, less than 5% when you consider England and the other big boys. On the other hand, a group of talented individuals isn't enough in itself. We might expect your squad, who play regularly in the English Prem or Champs' League, to beat Cyprus or San Marino comfortably and the big boys occasionally. But the reality is that for many years now they haven't (can't?).

There may be many reasons for this- injuries to key players, complacency through lack of competition, a succession of negative or inexperienced coaches, unfair barracking of some players, whatever. But in six years, you haven't beaten anyone with realistic hope of qualifying.

You may be right in your straw poll of random European fans. But I suspect you overstate their interest in fringe Manchester United defenders, let alone guys at Wigan or Reading. The average armchair fan in Iceland or Istanbul is more likely to have seen Healy's love-in with Michel Platini ;)

I know that our fans (self included) often get too chippy about our rivalry with you. But the sad truth is that being better than the RoI means very little nowadays. It clearly doesn't guarantee qualification. I genuinely hope that changes soon...

[ifk101]

Good rant, but calm down. We are quite clearly better than you, as measured by comparable 12-game leagues over two seasons. We have been improving for four years, since the EC 2004 lowpoint. You have been mediocre (by your own previously higher standards) for six. It's not impossible both trends might continue awhile yet.

Our basic problem is one of numbers. We have only 40% of the players available to you, less than 5% when you consider England and the other big boys. On the other hand, a group of talented individuals isn't enough in itself. We might expect your squad, who play regularly in the English Prem or Champs' League, to beat Cyprus or San Marino comfortably and the big boys occasionally. But the reality is that for many years now they haven't (can't?).

There may be many reasons for this- injuries to key players, complacency through lack of competition, a succession of negative or inexperienced coaches, unfair barracking of some players, whatever. But in six years, you haven't beaten anyone with realistic hope of qualifying.

You may be right in your straw poll of random European fans. But I suspect you overstate their interest in fringe Manchester United defenders, let alone guys at Wigan or Reading. The average armchair fan in Iceland or Istanbul is more likely to have seen Healy's love-in with Michel Platini ;)

I know that our fans (self included) often get too chippy about our rivalry with you. But the sad truth is that being better than the RoI means very little nowadays. It clearly doesn't guarantee qualification. I genuinely hope that changes soon...

Yawn. It's not about which team is better than the other, it's about whether joining forces would make an united Ireland team a "force" in world football. In my mind, the NI squad bar one or two exceptions does not offer a clear improvement on our current pick of players to suggest that joining forces would create a "super-side". Six of the team that started against Georgia played in the 4-1 defeat to Norway 4 years ago that coincided with NI's ranking as 124th best in the world. This highlights that FIFA rankings have nothing to do with the quality of players available to a team - it's reflective of how a group of players perform as a team. Yes NI have performed better than us as a team in recent years but this doesn't mean that NI has the better players.

[Gather round]

Yawn. It's not about which team is better than the other, it's about whether joining forces would make an united Ireland team a "force" in world football. In my mind, the NI squad bar one or two exceptions does not offer a clear improvement on our current pick of players to suggest that joining forces would create a "super-side". Six of the team that started against Georgia played in the 4-1 defeat to Norway 4 years ago that coincided with NI's ranking as 124th best in the world. This highlights that FIFA rankings have nothing to do with the quality of players available to a team - it's reflective of how a group of players perform as a team. Yes NI have performed better than us as a team in recent years but this doesn't mean that NI has the better players

Thread boring you? :)

It's about what people raise in the thread, surely? I was merely answering Carloz's points.

Of course broadly I agree with you- we are two clearly third-rate international teams and the enthusiasts for union are either deluding themselves, or more likely on a wind-up as I said.

I said we had the better team. In the short-term, since 2006, this is self-evident.

[youngirish]

NI's start eleven against Georgia was as follows;

Taylor, Baird, Hughes, Craigan, Evans, Gillespie, Johnson, Davis, Elliott, Healy, Lafferty.

Evans would start for us as we are in desperate need of a left full. Otherwise none of the players in that team are a clear improvement on what we already have to suggest that an united Ireland team would perform better on the world stage.

But please highlight where I'm wrong.

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

[Gather round]

I think you've already approached Baird about playing for RoI.

He declined :)

[EalingGreen]

You honestly believe that. You honeslty believe there isnt much of a difference between you best 11

Taylor, Craigain, Hughes, McCauley, Evans, Gillespie, Clingan, Davis, Brunt, Healy and Feeney (give or take a couple)

is much the same in quality as

Given, Kelly, Dunne, O'Shea, Kilbane, McGeady, A. Reid, S.Reid, Hunt, Doyle and Keane
:confused:


Read carefully what I actually posted. I clearly acknowledged that ROI has a significantly stronger squad than NI (a question of numbers, essentially). However, I said that the gap between our respective First XI's is not so wide.

[Oh and btw, amongst the "couple" of NI players I would give or take are George McCartney (one of the better LB's in the EPL) and Damien Johnson (approaching 300 EPL/International appearances, and Stephen Kelly's Club Captain). Or maybe even Kyle Lafferty, who at 20 already has an identical scoring record to that of Kevin Doyle (5 in 16 caps)]



Do me a bloody favour. Take off the tinted glasses. Yes you have been going through a good phase, but with the level of players of your disposal it will not last. Yes you are ahead of us for a number of months in the FIFA rankings....big whoop. We have been at our lowest level since the beginning of McCarthys days recently( and even they were arguably better). I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

If I am wearing tinted glasses - and let's face it, most fans are partial - then I may not be the only one. The FIFA rankings are worked out over a rolling four year period. NI are ahead for the recent "number of months" after having first caught up through consistently outperforming ROI over the past three years. During that period we have gained competitive victories over ranking sides England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. When did ROI last achieve a comparable result? Why are ROI at their lowest level since early McCarthy? Might not the two be linked?



I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

Never mind "anybody". Try giving the Lists to Luis Aragones, Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck. Then try Angelos Anastasiadis or Giampaolo Mazza...;)

[youngirish]

Thread boring you? :)

It's about what people raise in the thread, surely? I was merely answering Carloz's points.

Of course broadly I agree with you- we are two clearly third-rate international teams and the enthusiasts for union are either deluding themselves, or more likely on a wind-up as I said.

I said we had the better team. In the short-term, since 2006, this is self-evident.
I would argue that we have the potential to be second rate if we really go for it. So there.





If I am wearing tinted glasses - and let's face it, most fans are partial - then I may not be the only one. The FIFA rankings are worked out over a rolling four year period. NI are ahead for the recent "number of months" after having first caught up through consistently outperforming ROI over the past three years.

EG you definitely are wearing Rose coloured glasses. You consistently out performed us for possibly 6 months in those three years. Where did you finish in your last WC qualification campaign? THe correct answer is nowhere.
Didn't Wales hammer you not too long ago yes that same Wales we took 4 points off in our last qualification? Consistently outperformed us for 3 years? Ha ha.



Never mind "anybody". Try giving the Lists to Luis Aragones, Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck. Then try Angelos Anastasiadis or Giampaolo Mazza...;)

What's the Iceland and Latvian manager's name again?

[ifk101]

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

I think that's a fair assessment. There are some players that can add to our squad but there aren't players in the NI squad that are clearly better than what we already have. Going back to the article and O'Neill's suggestion, there currently doesn't exist any sporting justification for unifying the two sides. Maybe this existed in the past but it doesn't exist at this moment in time. Joining force wouldn't make a "super-side".


Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck.

You should look up our recent results against these sides.

[Gather round]

You should look up our recent results against these sides

If you're going to boast about friendlies, why not mention your regular draws with Brazil?

Your best win in a competitive game in the last six years was against Georgia.

[ifk101]

If you're going to boast about friendlies, why not mention your regular draws with Brazil?


I'm not boosting about anything. EG thought it fit that we should ask Martin Olsen and Lars Lagerbäck about how good NI is and I'm just pointing out that neither Denmark or Sweden have fond memories of playing against us. Frankly, I know how good both Denmark and Sweden are - and results against them are nothing to highlight.


Your best win in a competitive game in the last six years was against Georgia.

If you mean away from home you're probably correct. BTW who have NI beaten away from home within recent memory???

[EalingGreen]

NI's start eleven against Georgia was as follows;

Taylor, Baird, Hughes, Craigan, Evans, Gillespie, Johnson, Davis, Elliott, Healy, Lafferty.

Evans would start for us as we are in desperate need of a left full. Otherwise none of the players in that team are a clear improvement on what we already have to suggest that an united Ireland team would perform better on the world stage.

But please highlight where I'm wrong.

You're "wrong" in considering that football is played on paper, rather than grass! On paper, Schevchenko is a "better" player than e.g. Drogba. But on grass Drogba is incomparably better.

You may also be wrong in confusing club form with international form. For example, Robbie Keane is an incomparably better all round player than David Healy in every respect (bar, perhaps, pure finishing). But in 79 appearances during 10 years when ROI have mostly been the stronger side, Keane has scored 32 goals i.e. 1 every 2.47 games. Whereas, Healy has scored 34 in 64 i.e. 1 every 1.88 games.
I'm still not claiming you should pick Healy ahead of Keane, but if you don't think his presence on the bench would be a significant boost to any combined team, then you're blind. And if ever Keane were absent, in a straight choice between Healy and Kevin Doyle, it's "no contest".

P.S. On a technical point, Evans was only LB because George McCartney of West Ham pulled out on the morning of the game. In any combined team, McCartney would have to play LB, leaving either Evans or Hughes to partner (the outstanding) Richard Dunne at Centre Back.

[Gather round]

If you mean away from home you're probably correct. BTW who have NI beaten away from home within recent memory???

I meant overall. Your home wins in the last three competitions have been against Slovakia, Cyprus, Wales, Georgia, Faeroes and San Marino.

We beat Finland last season in a friendly but yes, our away form in qualifiers is pretty bad. Just like yours.

[ifk101]

You're "wrong" in considering that football is played on paper, rather than grass! On paper, Schevchenko is a "better" player than e.g. Drogba. But on grass Drogba is incomparably better.

You may also be wrong in confusing club form with international form. For example, Robbie Keane is an incomparably better all round player than David Healy in every respect (bar, perhaps, pure finishing). But in 79 appearances during 10 years when ROI have mostly been the stronger side, Keane has scored 32 goals i.e. 1 every 2.47 games. Whereas, Healy has scored 34 in 64 i.e. 1 every 1.88 games.
I'm still not claiming you should pick Healy ahead of Keane, but if you don't think his presence on the bench would be a significant boost to any combined team, then you're blind. And if ever Keane were absent, in a straight choice between Healy and Kevin Doyle, it's "no contest".

But as you have pointed out in the past, Sanchez got the best out of Healy because he played a target man beside him - Quinn or Lafferty. Likewise Keane is a "better player" playing off a target man - something that hasn't happened in an Irish shirt over the last few years.

I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. It's the classic big fish in the small pond syndrome. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man so it's not the case of Healy is better than Doyle, his position in the team would be dependent on what other players are also picked.

[EalingGreen]

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

Baird has actually been very poor for NI over the last 18 months, struggling mostly at Right Back.

His natural position is Centre Back, where he was truly excellent for Southampton last season (Players and Fans POTY). However, for NI, our Captain Aaron Hughes is a fixture and I now believe Jonny Evans should be CB alongside him.

As regards RB, before a serious injury put him out for the last 6 months, Michael Duff was playing very well for NI. On which form, he would deserve a place ahead of (the error-prone) Stephen Kelly imo. (Obviously Finnan would have been a shoo-in had he not retired)

As for Davis, I agree his form suffered recently for both club and country. But the Steven Davis of two years ago at Villa, or the last three months at Rangers, would regularly get a start, esp when you consider how injury-prone the two Reids are, or how bonkers Stephen Ireland is.

[Gather round]

I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man

Plenty thought Healy should be dropped when we and he went two years and 14 games without a goal. And the greater competition thing can be overstated- Kevin Kilbane has well over 50 caps despite being constantly derided by a large proportion of your fans. Saying he's dependent is a bit odd- we play to our strengths, he scores plenty of goals. You seemingly don't, and underachieve.

[EalingGreen]

Frankly, I know how good both Denmark and Sweden are - and results against them are nothing to highlight.


Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

[ifk101]

Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

Sweden friendly record is poor - for a variety of reasons. But the side they put out against us was the planned starting eleven for their World Cup opening match against Trinidad. That game was the dress rehearsal. But I'm sure I've told you this before. ;)

[paul_oshea]

Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

I think that was his point i.e. nothing to highlight. ;)

I'd have to agree healys finishing is far better than keanes though. Per game for NI though, how many goals to shots on target does he score, and can anyone point out the same stat for keane. Keane tends to miss quite a few before a goal, whereas I have a feeling healy doesn't miss so many before he scores therefore adding to the fact he is a better finisher.

[EalingGreen]

But as you have pointed out in the past, Sanchez got the best out of Healy because he played a target man beside him - Quinn or Lafferty. Likewise Keane is a "better player" playing off a target man - something that hasn't happened in an Irish shirt over the last few years.


Then in any combined team, the obvious thing would be to pick Lafferty alongside Keane, since ROI don't really have a player of the Target Man/Lafferty type.

(Although Alan Lee at Ipswich may fit the bill? If so, it may not be coincidence that Jim Magilton would love to buy Healy, if he could afford him)



I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. It's the classic big fish in the small pond syndrome. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man so it's not the case of Healy is better than Doyle, his position in the team would be dependent on what other players are also picked.

If you pick Healy and create chances for him, he will score. I freely acknowledge that Keane is much the better player than Healy and Doyle is more accomplished than Lafferty (though they're such different types it's hard to compare).
But since Lafferty made his NI debut, he and Healy have consistently played better and scored far more goals than Keane and Doyle.
It's the old dilemma of pedigree over performance. I understand perfectly why ROI fans look to the former and NI fans to the latter.
What would Jack Charlton have done, I wonder? Perhaps Liam Brady or David O'Leary could tell us....;)

[Gather round]

Brady is too busy sulking after the other pundits ridiculed his boss Wenger on RTE last night ;)

There's a YT video for those who missed it.

[youngirish]

If you pick Healy and create chances for him, he will score. I freely acknowledge that Keane is much the better player than Healy and Doyle is more accomplished than Lafferty (though they're such different types it's hard to compare).
Come off it EG. Anyone bar NI fans would consider Doyle to be a better player than Healy and a far better player than Lafferty (wasn't he Championship player of the season at a similar age to the age Lafferty is now).

[ifk101]

The thing is we don't know how good the Keane/Doyle partnership is because that partnership has yet to be coached. And further to that we don't know if Keane/Doyle is our best partnership. 10 or so strikers have been called up for this squad get together in Portugal possibly because of this.

[Gather round]

Isn't Doyle's record this season (five Prem goals for Reading) pretty ordinary? Barely better than Healy's four. He hardly stands out.

IFK- come off it, we realise Steve Staunton was a poor manager but you're not seriously suggesting they got NO coaching? ;)

Doyle was still in Ireland when the age Lafferty is now.

[jmurphyc]

Isn't Doyle's record this season (five Prem goals for Reading) pretty ordinary? Barely better than Healy's four. He hardly stands out.

This season it is but I think he's played out on the right a fair bit this season if I'm not mistaken. However, Doyle has proved that he can cut it in the Premiership last season and Healy hasn't (at least yet).

[Gather round]

So we're agreed. Both are mediocre Prem strikers. Doyle gets shunted to midfield, Healy to the bench.

I quite like Doyle actually, normally looks lively on MotD. But he needs to get more goals next term, or face a drop down to D2.

[ifk101]

IFK- come off it, we realise Steve Staunton was a poor manager but you're not seriously suggesting they got NO coaching? ;)

IMO Stan's greatest failing was his lack of communication skills. He's just not an effective communicator. I don't know Stan personally but looking back on his time as manager he always looked very uncomfortable talking in public and what he had to say was a collection of cliches that were never delivered with any conviction. So whilst Stan was out on the training field doing his thing and in his mind coaching the players, whether the players were actually being coached is very much open to question.

[EalingGreen]

I'd have to agree healys finishing is far better than keanes though. Per game for NI though, how many goals to shots on target does he score, and can anyone point out the same stat for keane. Keane tends to miss quite a few before a goal, whereas I have a feeling healy doesn't miss so many before he scores therefore adding to the fact he is a better finisher.

You've certainly hit the target there, Paul!

The Statistics from Euro2008 are very revealing. Obviously, DH was top scorer with 13 in 12 games (1063 mins). Note that these were evenly divided between 7 in 6 games against the minors (Liechtenstein, Latvia and Iceland) and 6 in 6 against Sweden, Denmark and Spain:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/players/typestat=gs/index.html
By contrast Keane scored 4 goals (989 mins) and Doyle 4 (676 mins)

Healy was also 3rd highest in the number of shots on goal (i.e. saved), with 24. This was more than Keane (13) and Doyle (8) combined.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/players/typestat=sg/page=2.html

Yet when it came to Shots Wide, Healy was only 6= in the list, with 13 - the same as Keane. Doyle had 7, in much less game-time than either. This is a testament to Healy's accuracy.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/players/typestat=sw/index.html
(Zinedine Kilbane had 12 shots off target, btw! :eek:)

Perhaps as interesting is the number of offsides incurred:
Healy was way out in front (literally!) on 24. Normally, if such a player weren't scoring (or at least getting shots off), you'd say he was stupid/wasteful. But for me, this demonstrates how incredibly hard the wee man works - he's permanently on the defender's shoulder, pushing, pushing pushing, until his chance comes. (I think he scored five one-on-ones against the keeper after outstripping the defence, which shows great timing for one who's not lightening quick).
By contrast, Keane was offside just 7 times and Doyle 6. And since neither is a lazy-arse, this indicates that they spent far too much time playing far too deep.
(Note how Lafferty was also caught offside 6 times, despite being a target man and not playing half the games)
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/players/typestat=o/index.html

The Fouls Suffered Table is also illuminating. You expect a dribbler like Ronaldo or Duff to get fouled frequently. But Healy was 5th on 28, with Lafferty on 14 (42 fouls suffered in total). Whereas Keane was fouled 19 times and Doyle 8 (27). Since Healy and Laff both push up continuously, this gains NI plenty of free-kick possession in the opposition's half.

And the Fouls Committed Table also tells a story. Both Healy and Laff are right up there on the first page with 22 each! Neither is a dirty player (though Laff is very raw and being 6'4", refs are suspicious of him) and they hardly got booked. What this means, therefore, is that they disrupt the opposition where they can't hurt NI i.e. in the opposition's own half. Whereas Keane (18) and Doyle (8) don't look to have been nearly as big a nuisance.
Further, NI's 3rd choice forward, Feeney, committed 13 fouls in 412 mins, the same number as our two most attacking midfielders, Gillespie (13 in 789 mins) and Davis (13 in 1069 mins). By contrast, our deepest/defensive midfielder, Clingan, committed just 8 fouls in 866 mins. This shows just how hard they all worked to protect the defence.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/players/typestat=fc/index.html

Finally, when you look at the overall Team Statistics, NI are generally fairly average, alongside ROI:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/team/index.html
The one glaring exception, however, is the number of Offsides committed:
NI were 3rd (of 50 teams), having been caught offside 46 times. Whereas, ROI were 40th, penalised just 21 times:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tournament/qualifying/statistics/team/typestat=o/index.html

It's a simple game, really. First get the ball into your opponent's half, where they can't hurt you. Then get it up to your forwards, where you can hurt them. Finally, if you lose the ball, do it up front, then don't let the opposition out of their own half with it.

Above all, if you give it to Healy, he will score!


Come off it EG. Anyone bar NI fans would consider Doyle to be a better player than Healy and a far better player than Lafferty

On [I]club form, of course. But this whole thread is discussing their merits as international players.


(wasn't he Championship player of the season at a similar age to the age Lafferty is now).
Lafferty (DOB 16/09/87) was 20 last September. Doyle (DOB 18/09/83) was 24 the same month.
When Doyle signed for Reading in June 2005, he was already nearly 22, having been full-time with Cork for a period before that.
Meanwhile, Lafferty was still playing in Youth Tournaments in NI.

[geysir]

Anyone want to pick their best All Ireland 11.
Just for curiousity value sake :)

From the Republic's team
I´d only guarentee Given, Dunne, Andy Reid and Keane a place.

Possibly Steven Reid and possibly Duff, both depending on form and depending on what NI had available.

[paul_oshea]

Brady is too busy sulking after the other pundits ridiculed his boss Wenger on RTE last night ;)

There's a YT video for those who missed it.

where is it?!

[Gather round]

Sorry, I forgot the details for the Brady/ Dunphy video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTGmAZ0k4M

[paul_oshea]

how come i can never find these?! the search function on youtube is crap i think.

the best football team in which country?! does souness know where he is?!

[Junior]

Brady v Dunphy - Id happily watch that type of punditry for the CL games rather than Sky or ITV!!!!

ER - great stats very interesting stuff - but by fcuk youve got too much time on your hands!!!

[GavinZac]

how come i can never find these?! the search function on youtube is crap i think.

What would google know about searching, eh? :p