Terry Venables

[tetsujin1979]

Thank God for Daniel McDonnell - big negative piece on El Tel this morning(online anyway)
Link: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/el-tel-1227377.html

[Drumcondra 69er]

Thank God for Daniel McDonnell - big negative piece on El Tel this morning(online anyway)

It's in the paper aswell,

El Tel

By Daniel McDonnell
Friday November 23 2007


Never has it seemed more appropriate to pluck out that old saying about England sneezing and Ireland catching a cold. These are ripe times for infection.


It's rare that the failure of the English national side could have such a knock on effect for those on this side of the pond. Normally, the tragi-comic collapse of our neighbours provides a certain amount of comfort in the summers where we have become accustomed to watching major championships from afar.

Perhaps it's an immature kind of pleasure but then it's hard not to smile at the reaction to what unfolded on Wednesday night when you consider that the BBC's three wise men of Hansen, Wright and Shearer all predicted facile victories for McClaren's band of brothers.

When Hansen had the temerity to suggest that it may not quite be a stroll in the park for the Wembley hosts, Wright even scolded him for taking a trip to 'negative town'. With such brazen and misplaced confidence, the subsequent capitulation became devilishly enjoyable.

Worrying

What is worrying, however, is that there were Irish people celebrating England's demise for a very different reason. For them, the silver lining of a European Championships without England is that it smoothes the way for Terry Venables to become the man to replace Steve Staunton.

It's remarkable really. While people revel in the inexplicable failure of an English side to qualify for the first time since the disastrous reign of Graham Taylor, there is a willingness to take a key component of that management staff and thrust him with the responsibility of leading Ireland forward.

If the common consensus is that we need a leader to bring the best out of the players we have and possibly look for them to perform beyond their abilities to make it to South Africa in 2010, then it makes little sense to turn to someone who was a member of a set-up that has somehow succeeded in bringing the worst out of their vaunted stars.

But wait, it's not that simple. Or so we are told. The mess is apparently nothing to do with El Tel. After all, he wasn't the manager and had a strained relationship with McClaren long before they were handed their P45's yesterday.

So that's alright then. What that argument ignores, unfortunately, is what is understood to be a key reason behind their fall-out.

When McClaren was appointed, he turned to Venables because he was believed to be strong in the area of tactical flexibility. It was a common theme put forward at the time; Venables had been in this game before so his knowledge of systems would be an asset. During his time as England boss, he had experimented with a degree of success.

The problem was that Venables did not negotiate England through a qualifying group when he was in the hot-seat. Considering they were the hosts of Euro '96, he had the luxury of spending two years dithering around with various formations in a non-pressurised environment.

In the competition itself, the enduring memory is England's agonising penalty kick defeat to Germany in the semi-finals of the competition. Never mind that they should have lost to the Spanish but triumphed by the same method at the quarter- final stage or needed a missed penalty from Gary McAllister to help them past Scotland. Sure, it's a tad harsh to take away from his side's performances in that competition but host countries rarely fail to threaten in such tournaments.

Anyway, this is where we move onto this campaign where at an early stage the influence of Venables was apparent. England switched to his favoured 3-5-2 for last year's qualifier in Croatia and flopped. The root of the breakdown in the relationship between McClaren and Venables lies there. Since then, it has consistently leaked out that El Tel is unsatisfied with not being consulted properly about formations and team selection.

Leaks

Ah yes, the leaks. A central aspect behind the clamour for Venables has been strong media support which has been a feature of his career to date. He knows how to play the press pack and look after journalists.

He's a smart guy and his logic made sense. Keep a couple of the more influential members in the loop and the legacy will be stronger. Consequently, his track record in handling the media and the circus similar to what the Irish job has become is regarded as a positive. We are suckers, it seems, for a bit of charisma.

The momentum behind the Venables campaign in some quarters is, literally, frightening. Sure, he ticks several of the boxes for what is wanted from a replacement with plenty of experience and some notable achievements when he was working his way up the managerial ladder.

But his recent record is appalling. The only high point was his admittedly fine effort when saving Bryan Robson's Middlesbrough from the drop six years ago. Other than that, his Australia experiment didn't work, his spells with Portsmouth and Crystal Palace were embarrassing and his stint at Leeds -- although it was a club in turmoil -- was littered with gaffes in the transfer market.

The belief that he got a raw deal with England after departing due to his complicated business dealings (let's not go there) was why there was a concerted campaign to give him another shot with the Three Lions. Now, after that experiment failed spectacularly, our desire for a big personality is obviously enough to deem his recent endeavours irrelevant.

What's frustrating is that the thrills and spills at Wembley was the wrong game for the FAI to be keeping their eye on the other night. With a bit of luck, they were monitoring affairs in Porto where Finland's goalless draw against Portugal was not enough to book a spot in Austria and Switzerland for the visitors.

The Finns never quite threatened to get the win which would have brought them to the big stage for the first time but they have come remarkably close with a limited panel. In a difficult group, they have conceded just seven goals and their lack of firepower can be attributed to lengthy injuries suffered by main men Mikkel Forssell and Jari Litmanen.

Their English manager Roy Hodgson is likely to move on and not with the stench of failure. The Finnish FA is desperate to keep him there but his career has been characterised by the desire for a new challenge and Ireland comes under that bracket. He is out of contract and therefore free to talk.

Exploits

Now aged 60, Hodgson steered Switzerland to USA '94 and Euro '96 and while his club career has had its ups and downs, his Finnish exploits prove that the international game is where he thrives. Lazily, his claims for the Irish post will be mocked due to an unremarkable stint in charge of Blackburn 10 years ago. On the other hand, we must delve into Venables' history in a search for any kind of positive.

We shouldn't be looking for just a Premiership manager though, or someone we rate because we recognise them off the telly and reckon they'd be engaging company. What we need is an international boss whose methods still seem capable of securing results in an arena where a special kind of expertise is required.

That man is Hodgson, not Venables -- yet there's far more chance of the latter being handed the reins should he want them. Baffling, but then this is the country we live in. Chilly times indeed.

- Daniel McDonnell

[Stuttgart88]

Can someonme else tell Kevin doyle to stop spouting "stream of conciousness" nonsense to the media. Anyway, the press are asking him about Venables & he'd say "ok", not eaxctly Doyle going out of his way to say Venables is the one. Dangerous all the same.

[NeilMcD]

AI should steer clear of “Z-List” Venables – Dunphy

November 23, 2007

Outspoken pundit Eamon Dunphy believes the Football Association of Ireland should not touch Terry Venables “with a bargepole”.

Venables is the new bookmakers’ favourite following his dismissal from the England management team and the withdrawal of Paul Jewell from the Irish race.

But Dunphy is far from convinced by the merits of the 64-year-old Londoner in relation to the Ireland position.

In his Irish Daily Star column on Friday, he wrote: “Do we want England’s cast-off? Venables was sacked yesterday for his role in England’s disastrous Euro 2008 campaign and it means he still hasn’t managed to spend over two years in any of his last seven jobs in football.

“But Venables has this Teflon tendency to deflect all criticism away from him. Steve McClaren was a disastrous appointment by the English FA but Venables’s fingerprints are all over a lot of the low points of the manager’s tenure.”

Dunphy added: “If you want to know why the FAI should not touch Venables with a bargepole, then you only have to look at the way he spent the first half at Wembley against Croatia in the royal box hobnobbing with Britain’s Prince William. Remember, England were 2-0 down at the time.

“But that sums up Venables. An A-List celebrity with his fondness for singing on chat shows but, these days, he’s a Z-List manager.”

[jmurphyc]

This is good news. Daniel McDonnell and now Dunphy coming out against the candidacy of Venables. The FAI will surely see reason and know that they can't appoint someone like him. Then again, this is the FAI of course.

[eekers]

can u just imagine venables play 352 with ireland
even though we dont have 3 centre backs or 3 central midfielders. it would be a disaster. kilbane and finnan on the wings :D

[Noelys Guitar]

He has no chance of getting the job. Will not get selected by the FAI.

[Bondvillain]

The FAI will surely see reason



:D:D:D

[NeilMcD]

:D:D:D


Tony Francis: Wow, what a game! A fantastic goal by Owarain. The Saudis seem to have some good players and have surprised a lot of people. What do you reckon Don, can you see any of them signing for British clubs?

Don Howe: Well, they've done well today, but you'd have to be worried whether or not they'd turn up to training, what with all the praying and that.

(General merriment in the studio, Venablesesque guffawing abounds)

Tony Francis: But it is a serious issue though.


Actually, I've just found an article about football TV coverage, including discussion of the efferverscent and patently stupid Matthew Lorenzo. They reference the Howe moment thus:

Yet Lorenzo wasn't helped by his pundits. Denis Law didn't seem to care less, and when asked what he thought the Spanish coach would be saying to his team after a poor performance replied, "I don't know, I can't speak Spanish". Worst of the lot, though, was Don Howe. He was considered one of the most adept coaches in the game, but was abysmal as a pundit. Not only did his oversized glasses and bald pate make him an unlikely TV star, but his flat Yorkshire accent, dour opinions and patronising manner made even the most serious-minded viewer hanker for the liveliness of Jimmy Greaves. One of his most notorious moments came when he was asked if any Saudi Arabian players would be worth signing by an English team. Howe suggested, "You'd have problems because of the praying all the time, you wouldn't know if they'd turn up for training. I'm being serious", addressing the final sentence at his fellow pundits roaring with laughter.

[eekers]

giles talking about venables last night

http://83.138.170.50/podcasts/audio/2211giles.mp3 (http://83.138.170.50/podcasts/audio/2211giles.mp3)

[OwlsFan]

This is good news. Daniel McDonnell and now Dunphy coming out against the candidacy of Venables. The FAI will surely see reason and know that they can't appoint someone like him. Then again, this is the FAI of course.

That's it. He has no chance. Dunphy has spoken out against him: the font of all knowledge :rolleyes: Mind you, first time I've ever agreed with anything he has said.

Was upsetting to hear Cas and Lawro singing El Tel's praises last night though on the Last Word. Most of text messages though they were getting were negative thank God.

[tricky_colour]

El Tel is a failures assistant.:rolleyes:

Why can't we have a proper failure like the last one :D

[Drumcondra 69er]

Hyland blowing Venables again big time on the back of the herald. Also takes time to have another cut at McCarthy in what has to be a non story, can't see him leaving Wolves at this stage.

At least they have a counter arguement inside, Eamon Carr is dead against it and articulates the obvious reasons pretty well.

Garry Doyle in the Mirror says a lot of the same things as Carr, only in a slightly less articulate manner....

[eekers]

ffs Delaney is in London tonight talking to a candidate according to cascarino on todayfm there

[Stuttgart88]

If he's meeting Venables hopefully they'll be mutually unimpressed

[eekers]

there should be no decision til after sundays draw anyway

[geysir]

ffs Delaney is in London tonight talking to a candidate according to cascarino on todayfm there
Can´t be true.
Cas, as we are told is unworthy or untrustworthy and according to Noely, Venables is not on the FAI agenda.

Isn´t Delaney on his way to South Africa?

[Superhoops]

ffs Delaney is in London tonight talking to a candidate according to cascarino on todayfm there

Suggest Delaney is in London on his way to South Africa!!


Sorry geysir: didn't see your post, but glad someone is on same wave length!

[eekers]

cas is a p-rick alright, just letting yous know what he told the country.
hope he's on the same flight as hodgson
cas is as likely to be bigging up venables because he has a six figure sum on him

mc donald is on newstalk now with his anti venables line

[eekers]

i remember hearing this story before so i went searching for it again on the internet found this

http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/250603036/m/9040052245

confirmed it here http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,913642,00.html (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,913642,00.html)


I heard a story that sums him up perfectly. When he bought into Tottenham, he found out that, in the Bill Nicholson Suite, there was a dancefloor which was one of the highest quality floors in Europe. He had this dug up and swapped it with the one in his extremely tacky Scribes West club.

[Schlooooomp]

I had a disparaging text about Vanables read out on Off The Ball this evening, seems that there are a lot of people out there impressed with his record in Euro 96, do they actually remember that tournament?

[Scram]

lads can we create a list of all the emails at the start of the thread or something or as a sticky on each page of this thread so that anyone who looks can email and advise against this?

BTW, i really didnt want to enter this thread or reply incase "the peoples" are watching and see the amount of views/replies and think its an indicator of how much people rate hIM!!!!! But they dont know how foot.ie goes completely off topic - not so much in this case!

WE SHOULD HAVE A POLL FOR EVERY FAVOURITE PLEASE

[tetsujin1979]

Saw this on the football365 message board, in the thread "which england manager do you dislike the most?"
http://forum.football365.com/index.php?t=msg&th=445083&start=0&

Manager Win %
Alf Ramsey 61.1
Glenn Hoddle 60.7
Ron Greenwood 60
Sven-Göran Eriksson 59.7
Walter Winterbottom 56.1
Steve McClaren 50.0
Bobby Robson 49.5
Don Revie 48.3
Terry Venables 47.8
Graham Taylor 47.4
Joe Mercer 42.9
Kevin Keegan 38.9
Venables had a worse win percentage than McClaren, Sir Bobby and Eriksson, and only marginally better than Graham "no, no, Platty" Taylor

Some of the comments on El Tel are fairly damning as well

[Stuttgart88]

I had a disparaging text about Vanables read out on Off The Ball this evening, seems that there are a lot of people out there impressed with his record in Euro 96, do they actually remember that tournament?It's extraordinary isn't it? That's the problem though, nobody places England's Euro 96 record under any scrutiny. My recollection is that the friendly campaign before Euro 96 was unimpressive too, not to mention the shambles of a team he put out at lansdowne in February 1995.

A few of us mentioned it here a few times and McDonnell wrote it in this morning's Indo, but a good win against a feuding Dutch team aside (yes, I'll concede the same team that tore us apart at Anfield 7 months earlier) England were very average. And let's face it, a team playing all its games at its home stadium hardly needs a genius to gee them up. Home games are easier for a manager. England played 5 home games at Euro 96. After 90 minutes (or even 120), 3 were drawn, and 2 were won. If McAllister had scored his penalty it'd probably have been played 5, drawn 4, won 1. Great record indeed. Not to mention the astonishing decision not to award a penalty against Gascoigne against Spain (during the Golden Goal ET period?).

People talk about today's international game being weak - not the case in my opinion - but in 1992 and 1996 the standard of European Championships was relatively poor. The Dutch were in turmoil, France had yet to properly emerge and Germany couldn't believe they won it.

[Noelys Guitar]

Delaney could be talking to anyone in London. He might even go through the motions of speaking with Venables. But thats about it. Delaney himself has huge doubts about Venables. Mind you Cascarino lumped on Kerr getting the job at 8/1 after bumping into Kerr in the Airport hotel prior to Kerr getting the job. I have a "feeling" it is Liam Brady that Delaney is going to interview. And this is an interview for the job not for the committee. It is only an interview not an offer of the job. I would'nt be surprised if Cascarino lumped on Brady today thinking that Brady was a cert for the job.

[Stuttgart88]

True, in fact you could contend that Delaney would be negligent NOT to speak to Venables as part of a broad selection process.

It's obvious I have a total and utter dislike of the man but I also feel that I'm being completely objective in assessing his track record since the 80s and also in mistrusting what I feel is a carefully placed set of Venables advocates in all sections of the media. A well known Irish journaliost emailed me today, copying a link from the (London) Evening Standard's website distancing Venables from a "paranoid" McLaren. Fine if true, but Venables has his tentacles in many segments of the media and I for one place no credibility on what I read in Venables' favour in the UK.

It has been suggested to me that certain commercial pressures are being put on the FAI re-Venables. I posted a couple of months ago that I was deeply suspicious of Umbro's (and John Courtenay's) relationship with the FAI. We have used Umbro kits for years, no questions asked, yet the competition for shirt contracts has never been greater. Put it this way, my suspicion runs deeper now.

[soccerc]

It has been suggested to me that certain commercial pressures are being put on the FAI re-Venables. I posted a couple of months ago that I was deeply suspicious of Umbro's (and John Courtenay's) relationship with the FAI. We have used Umbro kits for years, no questions asked, yet the competition for shirt contracts has never been greater. Put it this way, my suspicion runs deeper now.

Are you sating that Venables' appointment would sell more merchadise?

Philip Quinn writing in the Irish Mail suggests something similar

[co. down green]

I honestly wouldn't touch Venables with a barge pole.

He is exactly the type of manager we don't want.

I wouldn't be a fan of Dunphy, but his article today was spot on.

[eekers]

can the title of this thread be changed to "7 pages of disparaging remarks about venables"

[Noelys Guitar]

My source was spot on about Delaney meeting Brady in London.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/what-are-you-doing-1229670.html

[Superhoops]

My source was spot on about Delaney meeting Brady in London.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/what-are-you-doing-1229670.html

Further intrigue has been added to the situation when strong speculation last night suggested that Delaney had met another potential managerial candidate in London before continuing his journey onto Durban.

Yeah, really spot-on!

[Stuttgart88]

I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that Delaney and others in the FAI are not in cohesion / harmony. It's worrying as anything could happen if a an orderly search isn't conducted.

[Stuttgart88]

Separately I bought the Indo today due to the back page story on Delaney. Not one other mention in the whole sports section was given to the manager situation, yet instead I lost track of the number of opinions and articles on the next England manager. I'd have bought an English paper for that (which is what I did).

[Noelys Guitar]

Further intrigue has been added to the situation when strong speculation last night suggested that Delaney had met another potential managerial candidate in London before continuing his journey onto Durban.

Yeah, really spot-on!

HaHa. McDonell changed this paragraph which originally named Brady. The reporter still mentions Brady but in a round about way in the next paragraph.

[Stuttgart88]

So McDonnell is your source, or Indo editorial?

[Noelys Guitar]

So McDonnell is your source, or Indo editorial?

No chance! I hate O'Reilly. I was told that Delaney would be London and would be meeting Brady. What I don't know is the reason for the meeting. I posted that last night 5 hours before the Indo came out so maybe McDonell is coming on here reading the forum.

[Stuttgart88]

Isn't Brady touted as one of the selection advisors? If JD met him it's more likely to be to run the rule over a few of the names in the frame, no?

[Noelys Guitar]

Isn't Brady touted as one of the selection advisors? If JD met him it's more likely to be to run the rule over a few of the names in the frame, no?

Brady wants the job. And I'm speculating here but if Delaney spoke with Wenger then I'm sure Wenger could be very persuasive in pushing Brady's case. Don Howe has been mentioned in some papers as a possible for the elusive 3 man committee. I'm sure if Delaney spoke with him Howe would give glowing reports for both Brady and O'Leary. Are any of these ex-managers/players mentioning Hodgson? I bet there not. Out of sight out of mind kind of thing as much as jobs for the boys.

[geysir]

Some relief in that Venables is starting the slow drifting out of the betting market.
For a while there I was almost ready to phone Uri Geller.

The betting market seems a good mirror of the FAI intentions.
I was surprised to see Brady in at 6/1 early on and staying there, whereas Hodgson was always a rank outsider.
Now Liam is starting to come in a bit to 7/2.

[Superhoops]

Brady wants the job. And I'm speculating here but if Delaney spoke with Wenger then I'm sure Wenger could be very persuasive in pushing Brady's case. Don Howe has been mentioned in some papers as a possible for the elusive 3 man committee. I'm sure if Delaney spoke with him Howe would give glowing reports for both Brady and O'Leary. Are any of these ex-managers/players mentioning Hodgson? I bet there not. Out of sight out of mind kind of thing as much as jobs for the boys.

Why would Wenger want to push Brady's case?. Wenger's priority is Arsenal. Brady is Director of the Arsenal Academy, an important role in the Arsenal set up, a job Brady has been successful at. Wenger has high regard for Brady and the job he does at Arsenal, so why would he be trying to puh Brady's case with Delaney?

[Noelys Guitar]

Why would Wenger want to push Brady's case?. Wenger's priority is Arsenal. Brady is Director of the Arsenal Academy, an important role in the Arsenal set up, a job Brady has been successful at. Wenger has high regard for Brady and the job he does at Arsenal, so why would he be trying to puh Brady's case with Delaney?

Brady spoke with Wenger the day after he publicly declared his interest in the job on RTE. Wenger stated that he would not stand in Brady's way if Brady got the job. So if Delaney spoke with Wenger about Brady I'm sure Wenger would push Brady's case.

[Superhoops]

Brady spoke with Wenger the day after he publicly declared his interest in the job on RTE. Wenger stated that he would not stand in Brady's way if Brady got the job.
That is quite different to Wenger pushing Brady's case.

If Brady decided to go for whatever reason, not sure Wenger or anyone else could stand in his way. There may be contractual implications but as we all know that can be easily sorted.

[geysir]

The strange thing is that Brady has been the lone voice on the RTE about Delaney having too much power "its one man" etc.

[Noelys Guitar]

That is quite different to Wenger pushing Brady's case.

If Brady decided to go for whatever reason, not sure Wenger or anyone else could stand in his way. There may be contractual implications but as we all know that can be easily sorted.

Brady would not get this team to the WC. So I hope its not him. He admitted himself that he is not the ideal candidate and that the FAI should be looking for someone who has had success as a manager.

[Superhoops]

Brady would not get this team to the WC. .....
That's the problem and the reason why none of the 'big names' are queuing up for the job.

I don't think the best manager in the world, whoever that may be, would be confident of getting this team to the WCF (they might actually get them to the WC! :D). Tomorrow's WC group qualifying draw will be a big factor in finalising who is in and who is out.

[Kingdom]

Noely I have to ask. Is your "insider/source" a former UCL man? If so I really think I can hazard a guess as to who it is, as I reckon soccerc could too.

This talk of Brady, which if true, is ridiculous. If Oscar Wilde appoints Brady after appointing Staunton, then there will be no saving him after the next disasterous campaign.

[EalingGreen]

Why would Wenger want to push Brady's case?. Wenger's priority is Arsenal. Brady is Director of the Arsenal Academy, an important role in the Arsenal set up, a job Brady has been successful at. Wenger has high regard for Brady and the job he does at Arsenal, so why would he be trying to puh Brady's case with Delaney?

Brady successful at the academy? How many youngsters has he produced for the first team? Wenger clearly doesn't give a stuff about the Academy, since not only does he buy established players from overseas, but youngsters, as well.

Brady was a crap manager at Brighton and a crap manager at Celtic. I see no evidence whatever he would be a good manager of the ROI.

[Noelys Guitar]

Noely I have to ask. Is your "insider/source" a former UCL man? If so I really think I can hazard a guess as to who it is, as I reckon soccerc could too.

This talk of Brady, which if true, is ridiculous. If Oscar Wilde appoints Brady after appointing Staunton, then there will be no saving him after the next disasterous campaign.

The UCL part is right Kingdom. I use to run a team in the UCL. In the 80's. Have kept in contact with few of the old heads.

[Schlooooomp]

Venables has a stench off of him, we need to do whatever it takes to let the FAI know that he is not wanted here. It's not because he is english, or an east end boy, it is because his track record recently is not good enough and his relationship with money is open to question.

It seems that he has always been more interested in financial gain than success with teams that he has managed. According to John Delaney we have more money than ever before to offer to a manager and what happens, that smarmy git Venables slithers into the frame.

I for one will be disgusted if the exhorbitant price of tickets for Croke Park is used to line the pockets of Venables. I will have to seriously consider attending games while he is the manager. I realise that it is the team I will be supporting, not Venables, however the depth of my distaste of that man is a major factor.

[Superhoops]

Brady successful at the academy? How many youngsters has he produced for the first team? Wenger clearly doesn't give a stuff about the Academy, since not only does he buy established players from overseas, but youngsters, as well....

Fabregas and Hoyte came directly through the Academy. Also the 'youngsters' that are brought over at 17/18 have all been developed through their Academy. Diaby, Flamini, Van Persie, Clichy, Bendtner, Clichy, Song and even Walcott have all spent time at the Academy when they were first signed by Arsenal before going into the reserves and first team squads.

BTW, I agree Brady is not the man for the ROI manager's job.