UEFA Coefficient

[dcfcsteve]

Says more about your clubs history rather than the leagues does it not;)

Indeed. It really started going down hill after we left it.... :D

[holidaysong]

The 0.125 earned by Derry tonight brings us up to 1.375 for the year so far. We've passed the 1.333 mark which is what we lose for 5 years ago (which I really didn't think we'd do)..

Finland also got 0.125 tonight but with all their teams now out of Europe our (provisional) leapfrog over them in the rankings is now secure.

[dynamo kerry]

The 0.125 earned by Derry tonight brings us up to 1.375 for the year so far. We've passed the 1.333 mark which is what we lose for 5 years ago (which I really didn't think we'd do)..

Finland also got 0.125 tonight but with all their teams now out of Europe our (provisional) leapfrog over them in the rankings is now secure.

Just so we're clear
Sligo - 0.5
Bohemians - 0.5


2nd Qualifying round
Pats - 1.5
Derry - 1.5

3rd Qualifying round
Pats - 1
Derry - 0.5

1.375


Decent year so far. If pats can manage a draw or even two it starts to look very good. Especially as it's a 4 team score compared to the old 3 team score. It's probably a bg ask to expect 4 Irish teams to do very well in Europe every year. A lot of the experience tends to be at 2/3 clubs.

Still, as the standard rises, we're definitely getting closer. Especially considering that it's not exaclty a great year for the league in a number of other ways.

[saintmaniac]

The 0.125 earned by Derry tonight brings us up to 1.375 for the year so far. We've passed the 1.333 mark which is what we lose for 5 years ago (which I really didn't think we'd do)..

That's great, I'm very happy, but if you respond to my celebration of a Pats European victory again with the words "It's great for the co-efficient", I should not have to be held responsible for my actions. :D It's not human!

[redobit]

Should be higher. We let the side down. Looking back we should have taken them.

[Mayo Red]

Should be higher. We let the side down. Looking back we should have taken them.

Definately, we should have beaten them out the gate in the Showgrounds on the balance of play and chances, especially in the first half. Such a shame we couldn't progress.

[ped_ped]

OK, two co-efficient related questions:

This page (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/) referenced in the Champions League thread says that the champions of the top 12 countries (countries rated 1 - 12) get straight into the group, but I cannot for the life of me understand who gets into the 4th qualifying round (the play-offs). I get that two third-placed teams and three fourth placed teams and all that... but to put it simply, fill in the question marks:

"The champions of the countries rated 13 - ?? get an automatic place in the play-offs."

---

Question number two - am I right in saying that, theoretically if the champions of a country NEVER qualify for the Champions League as they NEVER manage to win a qualifying round, they could still win an automatic place the following year because the second placed/third placed/cup winners gain so many co-eff points in the Europa League that it pushes the country into twelfth place?

[Schumi]

OK, two co-efficient related questions:

This page (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/) referenced in the Champions League thread says that the champions of the top 12 countries (countries rated 1 - 12) get straight into the group, but I cannot for the life of me understand who gets into the 4th qualifying round (the play-offs). I get that two third-placed teams and three fourth placed teams and all that... but to put it simply, fill in the question marks:

"The champions of the countries rated 13 - ?? get an automatic place in the play-offs."No champions get an automatic place in that round. They all have to get through the previous round.


Question number two - am I right in saying that, theoretically if the champions of a country NEVER qualify for the Champions League as they NEVER manage to win a qualifying round, they could still win an automatic place the following year because the second placed/third placed/cup winners gain so many co-eff points in the Europa League that it pushes the country into twelfth place?
It's possible. I don't know if a country has got an automatic group stage spot before a team qualified though.

[ped_ped]

No champions get an automatic place in that round. They all have to get through the previous round.

So Wisła Kraków must play through two qualifying rounds after winning the Ekstraklasse... yet fourth-placed Arsenal must only play one tie after finishing 18 points off the mark... so much for the UEFA 'Champion's League,' eh?

[dcfcsteve]

So Wisła Kraków must play through two qualifying rounds after winning the Ekstraklasse... yet fourth-placed Arsenal must only play one tie after finishing 18 points off the mark... so much for the UEFA 'Champion's League,' eh?

That point has been made for years.

In fairness though, the top team in Poland are probably no better than Arsenal, so the idea from UEFA's perspective is to allow more in from the better leagues to take account of the difference in quality.

The Champions League is all about stopping Europes top clubs from running off and setting up the proverbial European Super League, and the price that's paid for footballing unity is the likes of Arsenal getting parachuted into the CL at the stage just before the groups. Footballling politics is the art of the possible.

[bigmac]

That point has been made for years.

In fairness though, the top team in Poland are probably no better than Arsenal, so the idea from UEFA's perspective is to allow more in from the better leagues to take account of the difference in quality.

The Champions League is all about stopping Europes top clubs from running off and setting up the proverbial European Super League, and the price that's paid for footballing unity is the likes of Arsenal getting parachuted into the CL at the stage just before the groups. Footballling politics is the art of the possible.

In addition to this, Platini's changes have meant that Krakow are much more likely to get a winnable tie to get into the group stages - you may think it's unfair that Fiorentina/Celtic/Atletico Madrid are only one (or two for Celtic) games away from the group stages, but these three teams are unseeded in their final qualifying round.

Essentially what this means is that given a favourable draw, we now have a Cypriot team, a Latvian team and a Hungarian team only one game away from Champions League group stages - while still a pipe dream for Irish clubs, it is now a little easier than it was before. Conversely, there is no chance of a glamour tie for the CL team against any team from the top 12 leagues.

But how happy would any Irish team be in Nicosia's situation? A two legged tie against Copenhagen for entry to the Champions League group stage, with guaranteed Europa League group stage for the winner...

[SkStu]

In addition to this, Platini's changes have meant that Krakow are much more likely to get a winnable tie to get into the group stages - you may think it's unfair that Fiorentina/Celtic/Atletico Madrid are only one (or two for Celtic) games away from the group stages, but these three teams are unseeded in their final qualifying round.

Essentially what this means is that given a favourable draw, we now have a Cypriot team, a Latvian team and a Hungarian team only one game away from Champions League group stages - while still a pipe dream for Irish clubs, it is now a little easier than it was before. Conversely, there is no chance of a glamour tie for the CL team against any team from the top 12 leagues.

But how happy would any Irish team be in Nicosia's situation? A two legged tie against Copenhagen for entry to the Champions League group stage, with guaranteed Europa League group stage for the winner...

i initially thought so too bigmac but i think an opening tie against a team of the calibre of Salzburg put that theory to bed (for me anyway). It all depends on our champions getting into that top tier of seeds in the QR2 (this is the biggest hurdle but we are close) and then getting a favourable draw the rest of the way.

[bigmac]

i initially thought so too bigmac but i think an opening tie against a team of the calibre of Salzburg put that theory to bed (for me anyway). It all depends on our champions getting into that top tier of seeds in the QR2 (this is the biggest hurdle but we are close) and then getting a favourable draw the rest of the way.

True enough, it would take a pretty strange series of results to give an Irish team a chance, but the rejigged qualification method doesn't make it any more difficult. As you say, we're not far away from the top tier of seeds in QR2 and in that case, any team should be expected to progress to Q3.
At our current position, this round should be viewed basically as a possible entry to the Europa League. We have seen in the past few years, occasional results against bigger teams (Russians, Danish, Swedish etc..) so it is not too difficult to imagine an Irish team getting through this round at some stage.
When the new format was announced I predicted (to a mate) that a LOI team would make the Europa League group stages within 5 years, and I stand by that prediction.

In summary; a seeding in QR2 means that the LOI champions will begin with a tie against a seriously beatable team from the lower reaches of Europe. A win in this means that the champions are only one tie away from the Europa League group stages.

[HarpoJoyce]

True enough,....

In summary; a seeding in QR2 means that the LOI champions will begin with a tie against a seriously beatable team from the lower reaches of Europe. A win in this means that the champions are only one tie away from the Europa League group stages.

I think once UEFA set up the UEFA Group stages, than it's pretty sure that eventual there would be a place for a LoI sidein the UEFA Cup groups.
[Obviously Europa League Groups is entirely different.]

Please remember this is ground trampled by LoI sides in the past, they are just a little polite not to mention it all the time.

[bigmac]

Please remember this is ground trampled by LoI sides in the past, they are just a little polite not to mention it all the time.

I'm well aware of that, but the positive ramifications of any form of "group stage" football in the modern game are much larger than at any point in the past.

[dcfcsteve]

i initially thought so too bigmac but i think an opening tie against a team of the calibre of Salzburg put that theory to bed (for me anyway).

What calibre wouyld that be exactly ?!? :confused:

The kind that was 3mins away from goign out to an Irish side, until saved by a defensive error.

You're giving Salzburg way too much respect there.

[SkStu]

What calibre wouyld that be exactly ?!? :confused:

The kind that was 3mins away from goign out to an Irish side, until saved by a defensive error.

You're giving Salzburg way too much respect there.

really? I dont think i am, i think im being realistic.

granted i dont think they ever made the group stages themselves, but, as well as Janko, Ilic, Dudic and Zickler, they have numerous other decent international players not to mention that they have a budget far in excess of any LoI budget due to their huge sponsor. They are on the verge of making the group stages themselves. They were managed by our current national team manager. They are not necessarily a model to admire but they are certainly on a different level to any Irish club (on and off the pitch) even if they werent very convincing against us in the return game.

anyway, my original point was that we need to get out of the bottom tier of seeds and then stay out so that we avoid having to play these kind of tough games in the future. It could have been Copenhagen, Sofia, Partizan Belgrade, Maccabi Haifa, Zagreb, Wisla Krakow, BATE... it doesnt matter that it was Salzburg.

[JC_GUFC]

anyway, my original point was that we need to get out of the bottom tier of seeds and then stay out so that we avoid having to play these kind of tough games in the future. It could have been Copenhagen, Sofia, Partizan Belgrade, Maccabi Haifa, Zagreb, Wisla Krakow, BATE... it doesnt matter that it was Salzburg.

This is a bit like the chicken and the egg scenario - we'll only get out of the bottom seeds if we win a tie like this.

BATE were beaten by Ventspils of Latvia - who then went on to play FC Zurich last night. This is not that tough a route to the Champions League - and obviously the Europa League when they lose.

BATE only got to be seeded on the back of their results the previous year when they made the group stages and picked up points.

I think it's fair enough to say that our clubs don't deserve to be in the group stages of the competitions if they can't compete against this calibre of club.

Another good example is Debrecen of Hungary who were seeded below Bohs.

They were drawn against the Swedish Champions, Kalmar and were then drawn against the winners of Levadia Tallinn v Wisla Krakow, which happened to be Tallinn and last night won away at Levski Sofia.

[Steve Bruce]

This is a bit like the chicken and the egg scenario - we'll only get out of the bottom seeds if we win a tie like this.

BATE were beaten by Ventspils of Latvia - who then went on to play FC Zurich last night. This is not that tough a route to the Champions League - and obviously the Europa League when they lose.

BATE only got to be seeded on the back of their results the previous year when they made the group stages and picked up points.

I think it's fair enough to say that our clubs don't deserve to be in the group stages of the competitions if they can't compete against this calibre of club.

Another good example is Debrecen of Hungary who were seeded below Bohs.

They were drawn against the Swedish Champions, Kalmar and were then drawn against the winners of Levadia Tallinn v Wisla Krakow, which happened to be Tallinn and last night won away at Levski Sofia.


The thing is though, if Irish League clubs, League Of Ireland Clubs and other clubs of similar stature, where given the right to start in the Champions League like the champions of any of the top countries, the money that these small clubs would get as well as the exposure of the league will no doubt help to narrow the gap.

The way the CL and EURO League is set up is only to serve to make the rich teams richer and the small poor teams smaller and poorer.

If an Irish club got The £6-£15M for being hte CL, their is no doubts the team would get stronger and the following season be more competitive

[OneRedArmy]

The thing is though, if Irish League clubs, League Of Ireland Clubs and other clubs of similar stature, where given the right to start in the Champions League like the champions of any of the top countries, the money that these small clubs would get as well as the exposure of the league will no doubt help to narrow the gap.

The way the CL and EURO League is set up is only to serve to make the rich teams richer and the small poor teams smaller and poorer.

If an Irish club got The £6-£15M for being hte CL, their is no doubts the team would get stronger and the following season be more competitiveNewton's third law of motion applies here...... If the CL was full of small clubs from weak leagues they wouldn't be getting that amount of money as the sponsors want to see only the rich, big clubs.

[DmanDmythDledge]

The way the CL and EURO League is set up is only to serve to make the rich teams richer and the small poor teams smaller and poorer.

If an Irish club got The £6-£15M for being hte CL, their is no doubts the team would get stronger and the following season be more competitive
If you do that are you not just passing on a similar problem to national leagues? If one club in the LOI got that sort of money they would be miles ahead of the rest financially and thus the gap of standard would increase even more, eventually leading to one team dominating.

[dcfcsteve]

The thing is though, if Irish League clubs, League Of Ireland Clubs and other clubs of similar stature, where given the right to start in the Champions League like the champions of any of the top countries, the money that these small clubs would get as well as the exposure of the league will no doubt help to narrow the gap.

The way the CL and EURO League is set up is only to serve to make the rich teams richer and the small poor teams smaller and poorer.

If an Irish club got The £6-£15M for being hte CL, their is no doubts the team would get stronger and the following season be more competitive

Here - what's this about the LOI and Irish League being of similar stature ? Do you follow European results/co-efficients at all....? :p

;)

[citybone]

I think we are moving from 30th up to the 29th ranked club which would have
1 Seeded Championsleague 2nd Qualifying round
1 Unseeded 3rd Qualifying round for the Europa League (same round as pats tonight)
2 Seeded 2nd Qualifying round of Europa League
and 1 Seeded 1st Qualifying round of the Europa League
So one Extra European place for the LOI if i am correct??? I think this is a year behind though?

[Schumi]

That doesn't sound right. I don't think there's a 5th team until you get to the top 15 or something.

[citybone]

That doesn't sound right. I don't think there's a 5th team until you get to the top 15 or something.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html

[A N Mouse]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html

This was explained already.

Notice how the text highlighted in red and green is exactly the same - it means the red text has been crossed through and replaced by the green text. Someone else can point you to the post explaining it, but I think it was because last years uefa cup winner qualified for the champions league, so a few of the higher seeded teams got to move up a bit

ie. Derry should have started in the same round as Sligo this year, but got moved up to start with Pats.

[gspain]

This was explained already.

Notice how the text highlighted in red and green is exactly the same - it means the red text has been crossed through and replaced by the green text. Someone else can point you to the post explaining it, but I think it was because last years uefa cup winner qualified for the champions league, so a few of the higher seeded teams got to move up a bit

ie. Derry should have started in the same round as Sligo this year, but got moved up to start with Pats.

The basic point is correct albeit it depends on the champions league winner qualifying through their league (normally OK) and the UEFA Cup winner qualifying for the champions league (good chance).

It won't apply until next season though.

We are 30th in the access list for this season which means our cup winner has a good chance of being exempt until the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa League. The downside of this though is they lose the opportunity to pick up coefficient points for the national coefficient. They do gain a good club coefficient though.

[SkStu]

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/loi/news.asp?n=37034

[Umberside]

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/loi/news.asp?n=37034

About time we got into the group stages then.

[kdjaC]

E eye e eye o

[DaveyCakes]

That article is wrong. The LOI coefficient this year is 1.375, not 2.75, and the 5-year total is 9.451

[gspain]

Latvia, Hungary and Moldova can all still overtake us too. They have teams in the group stages of the respective competitions.

29th is a big difference from 30th in that the 2010 cup winner gets through to Round 3 of the Europa League if both the Europa league winner and champions league winner don't need an extra european place.

[A N Mouse]

Latvia, Hungary and Moldova can all still overtake us too. They have teams in the group stages of the respective competitions.

29th is a big difference from 30th in that the 2010 cup winner gets through to Round 3 of the Europa League if both the Europa league winner and champions league winner don't need an extra european place.

So even if our teams didn't make, am I right in thinking that this would be the first time this thread will make it to the group stages?

Couldn't find mention of it on bert's site, is it 2 for a win and 1 for a draw?

If so the Moldovans would need 2 wins, and the others a win and a draw. [to overtake us]

EL
Group D
Sporting
Heerenveen
Hertha Berlin
FK Ventspils

Group H
Steaua Bucuresti
Fenerbahce
FC Twente
FC Sheriff

CL
Group E
Liverpool
Lyon
Fiorentina
Debrecen

Incidently, what are the chances of rte/tv3/setanta showing a game that would be relevance to fans of irish football? [as opposed to some perceived relevance to people who like to watch football on the telly who happen to be irish]

[GalwayRed]

Incidently, what are the chances of rte/tv3/setanta showing a game that would be relevance to fans of irish football? [as opposed to some perceived relevance to people who like to watch football on the telly who happen to be irish]
I have no doubt Irish football will be at the forefront of rte's thoughts when they show the liverpool-debrecen match.

[gspain]

I have no doubt Irish football will be at the forefront of rte's thoughts when they show the liverpool-debrecen match.

No doubt also that half the country will be cheering on Liverpool because it will help our coefficient

[holidaysong]

Couldn't find mention of it on bert's site, is it 2 for a win and 1 for a draw?

If so the Moldovans would need 2 wins, and the others a win and a draw. [to overtake us]


It is 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw from the group stages on alright, but you still have to remember to divide those points by 4 (the number of entrants that Latvia, Moldova and Hungary have). Therefore in the group stages a win is only worth 0.5 and a draw 0.25 for the national co-efficient. The Latvian side Ventspils would therefore need 4 wins and a draw for Latvia to overtake us this year.

[thejollyrodger]

our coefficent is 7.375, our highest level ever, do the same rules (.5 for a draw, 1.0 for a win) apply in the group stages of the Europa League ?



# country 07/08 08/09 09/10 10/11 11/12 ranking teams
33 Ireland 1.000 2.500 1.375 1.000 1.500 7.375 1/ 4

[BonnieShels]

What will this mean in the grand scheme of things say, if Rovers do no better?

[sullanefc]

our coefficent is 7.375, our highest level ever, do the same rules (.5 for a draw, 1.0 for a win) apply in the group stages of the Europa League ?

I think we have been higher than that.

[Big Ears]

our coefficent is 7.375, our highest level ever, do the same rules (.5 for a draw, 1.0 for a win) apply in the group stages of the Europa League ?

9.655 in 1983 (which had us in 24th place) is actually our highest ever. Interestingly in 1990 we had 1.332, which put us in 32nd place (last), behind Luxembourg and Malta.
In recent times however our best year was in 2010, with 9.541 points and in 29th place.

Points in the qualifying rounds are only worth half, so as this is the competition proper a win is worth 2.0 points and a draw 1.0 points. Of course Ireland had 4 teams in Europe this year so this would become 0.500 points for a win or 0.250 points for a draw. Good news for Rovers fans is that their own club coefficient achieved for this season alone (so far) is 2.300, this will increase by 2 points for any win and 1 point for any draw.

[swinfordfc]

Do we not get a 1 point added to our co-efficient for getting into the group stages of european football?

[Acornvilla]

Do we not get a 1 point added to our co-efficient for getting into the group stages of european football?

I thought it was 2 points! have i been dreaming again?

[DannyInvincible]

Rovers are awarded 2 co-efficient points for qualifying but require bettering either one win or two draws in the six games to achieve a greater number of co-efficient points. Each win is worth 2 points and each draw is worth 1 point for the club. It's a peculiar system as a team who achieves just one victory overall and five losses will receive the same number of co-efficient points as a team who loses all six of their ties.

[mypost]

9.655 in 1983 (which had us in 24th place) is actually our highest ever.

That may be true, but there were only 35-odd countries in the UEFA system in those days.

[outspoken]

If this has already been answered in the thread sorry in advance but will rovers qualifying for the EL move the league any further up the ladder?

[DannyInvincible]

If this has already been answered in the thread sorry in advance but will rovers qualifying for the EL move the league any further up the ladder?

Not significantly, if it all, I believe, but I'm open to correction on that. The main benefit of qualification is to their club co-efficient, although if they could make a habit of qualifying regularly, that would pull the league co-efficient up.

[thejollyrodger]

Not significantly, if it all, I believe, but I'm open to correction on that. The main benefit of qualification is to their club co-efficient, although if they could make a habit of qualifying regularly, that would pull the league co-efficient up.

To move up the country co-efficient to anything of note (I think 29th is next place of note) Shamrock Rovers would have to get 4 wins or something like that. 29th is 2.375 co-efficient points ahead. That would take 4 wins and 2 draws (4 X 0.5 + 2 X 0.25) !!

To move up 1 place in the co-efficient,Shamrock Rovers would have to get a result of 1.041. That would take 2 wins and 2 draws ( 2 X 0.5 + 2 X 0.25). Tough by any stretch of the imagination.

[BonnieShels]

To move up the country co-efficient to anything of note (I think 29th is next place of note) Shamrock Rovers would have to get 4 wins or something like that. 29th is 2.375 co-efficient points ahead. That would take 4 wins and 2 draws (4 X 0.5 + 2 X 0.25) !!

To move up 1 place in the co-efficient,Shamrock Rovers would have to get a result of 1.041. That would take 2 wins and 2 draws ( 2 X 0.5 + 2 X 0.25). Tough by any stretch of the imagination.


Does that not assume that 29th gets no points at all?

[El-Pietro]

6 countries directly above us have no teams left in Europe

[thejollyrodger]

yes it does, pretty optimistic.. just a quick check up there, i take it that they have ALL 4 teams left in the competition?

29 Hungary 1.000 1.000 2.750 2.750 2.250 9.750 4
30 Finland 2.625 1.833 1.375 1.800 1.500 9.133 4
31 Georgia 1.000 1.166 1.750 1.875 2.875 8.666 4
32 Bosnia-Herzegovina 1.833 1.833 1.750 1.875 1.125 8.416 4
33 Ireland 1.000 2.500 1.375 1.000 1.500 7.375 1/ 4