UEFA Coefficient

[paul_oshea]

is the europa league only 3 qualifying rounds like the uefa cup? If derry were to beat sofia then they woud go into group stages?

[sligoman]

is the europa league only 3 qualifying rounds like the uefa cup? If derry were to beat sofia then they woud go into group stages?No, there's a play-off round after the next one.

[paul_oshea]

No, there's a play-off round after the next one.

play off round sure isnt that exact same thing as another round i heard that before but was then confused by a previous post, or is it a neutral venue a one off game?

[sligoman]

play off round sure isnt that exact same thing as another round i heard that before but was then confused by a previous post, or is it a neutral venue a one off game?No, it's 2 legs. Winner goes into group.

[paul_oshea]

Qualifying
In matches in the three qualifying rounds and the play-off stage, clubs play two matches against each other on a home and away basis, with the club scoring the greater aggregate of goals qualifying for the next round. In the event of both teams scoring the same number of goals, the team which scores more goals away qualifies.


i dont see the dif between play off and QRs is it simply money?

[Sheridan]

It's called the play-off round because it's the final qualifying round and they're playing off for a place in the group stages.

[tiktok]

AFAIK it's called the play-off round because the losing 3rd round Champions League Teams join at this stage and compete against the Europa League 3rd qualifying round winners for the group stage spot

[Sheridan]

I don't think so, because the last qualifying phase in the CL is also called the play-off round(s). Obviously just the preferred nomenclature in Nyon.

[tiktok]

Obviously just the preferred nomenclature in Nyon.

Cheers.

By the way, I've been drinking and just tried to read the above out loud...with hilarious consequences [well, hilarious to me, drink may be making it funnier].

[pineapple stu]

There's half coefficient points for qualifying rounds, so maybe there's full points for this round, so they can't call it a qualifying round?

[Duggie]

lads so far where do we stand after all those rounds ??

[ifk101]

lads so far where do we stand after all those rounds ??

We're standing behind Finland and but ahead of Lithuania.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html

[Duggie]

We're standing behind Finland and but ahead of Lithuania.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html

cheers, were doing well. look at a country like norway down in 19th place now. the finns are doing well also.

[paul_oshea]

its funny when you look at countries like cyprus and croatia and compare, croatia have always been a strong enough international competitor(like ourselves I'd like to beleive) but yet lie 7 or so places behind cyprus in that table, a relative poor international team up until the last few years anyway. Maybe Ireland isn't the only country with problems :)

[HarpoJoyce]

lads so far where do we stand after all those rounds ??

The country ranking is already confirmed.
35th place this year and 30th place next year.

[christo]

The country ranking is already confirmed.
35th place this year and 30th place next year.

How gaurenteed is that move up to 30th place, are we likely to be caught by Latvia or Bosnia or maybe even Lithunia

[holidaysong]

We were 30th last year and 35th the year before. There is a two year delay in the league ranking affecting where your clubs enter, as clubs need to know before their league begins how many places their country will have in Europe in the following year..

e.g. In 2007/08 European season we were 35th but it wasn't until this season that this ranking was applied to us - so that clubs in the 2008 LOI season would know how many places etc. were available for this year..

[HarpoJoyce]

double-edit

[HarpoJoyce]

We were 30th last year and 35th the year before. There is a two year delay in the league ranking affecting where your clubs enter, as clubs need to know before their league begins how many places their country will have in Europe in the following year..

e.g. In 2007/08 European season we were 35th but it wasn't until this season that this ranking was applied to us - so that clubs in the 2008 LOI season would know how many places etc. were available for this year..

holidaysong you are correct that figures are gathered over Five years ( and not four years plus one continous changing year). And the last year was completed two seasons ago so that clubs/countries on border-line seeding lists are not told of a change at short notice either beneficial or detrimental.

But it is the year that it is applied to which matters.

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/format/newsid=788260.html
"Coefficient ranking
A country's representation in the UEFA Champions League is determined by its UEFA coefficient ranking, which is calculated over a five-year basis. The list below is provisional, however, and is subject to final confirmation from UEFA.

2009/10 UEFA Champions League access list
....
35 Republic of Ireland CH
...."

It's as plain as day that this year the Republic of Ireland are ranked 35th.
The UEFA coefficient is as simple or complex as a domestic Division table, while holidaysong has shown a genuine interest in the calculations there are people who insist on trying to make the system appear complicated.


How gaurenteed is that move up to 30th place, are we likely to be caught by Latvia or Bosnia or maybe even Lithunia

I am very sure that Rep. of Ireland will move up to 30th spot.
Linked above UEFA.com 35th spot 2009/10. To my eternal embarrassment I will now use the bert kassies website to show next years completed five year Country ranking.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2009.html
"....
30 Ireland ..."

This ranking list (with some minimal changes if any from UEFA) will be put in motion by UEFA at the start of next year 2010/11. So already, everyone in summer football in Ireland this year knows exactly how many places (rewards) are available to them and can plan the competitions accordingly. Simple.
Again this is based on the Five year fixed calculations and not the four year plus one continuous year which is the calculations two years from now.

(It used to be alot worse, I remember foot.ie when one of the Mods used to note the half-time scores from the qualifying rounds e.g. Moldova v. Serbia-Montenegro and change the UEFA Five Year Coefficient accordingly for half-time. Things have got a lot better with posters like holidaysong here.)

[paul_oshea]

does 30th benefit in any way such as entering qualifying at a later stage or being seeded or is the seeding down to an individual teams points?

[Dodge]

does 30th benefit in any way such as entering qualifying at a later stage or being seeded or is the seeding down to an individual teams points?

What round you enter is based on countries rankings, and how teams qualified for europe (cup winners, league placings etc)

Seedings within rounds are based on club rankings (of which the country ranking is a part of)

[HarpoJoyce]

does 30th benefit in any way such as entering qualifying at a later stage or being seeded or is the seeding down to an individual teams points?

Dodge gave you the short answer. If you wanted something more specific.

We can take this years Access List 2009/2010 Finland are 30th spot.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=2097152/newsid=788326.html

If there is no change in the format, 30th spot is one place short of one of the Europa League reps. landing a 3rd. round qualifying place. 'CW' will be the FAI Cup Winners, if the LoI champions win the double then the 'CW' place reverts to the League table and the runners-up in the league will take 'CW'. The FAI cup runners-up still qualify for the Europa League but come in as N3.
A small thing like the Europa League champions of 2009/10 qualifying for the Champions league in 2010/2011 and not taking up their EL place as holders could be enough to push the LoI CW into the qualifying 3rd Round.

(Credit holidaysong amongst others he helped me out with that this season, as I understand Derry City got a EL q2 place because of a change above them and then their own coefficient got them seeding for q2 round.
UEFA use the tecnical term 'Knock-on effect' for this senario.)

I think its great the huge leaps LoI have made up the table and have tried to maximise their position. 40th, 35th, 35th and next year 30th is the sequence of rankings. Big step, consolidation, big step normal development. And because every result is calculated (albeit partial points for early rounds) I trust the measurent over the five year period.

For the 30th spot, clubs have to thank Shelbourne and Bohemian and Longford Town and Cork City and Derry City and Drogheda United and St. Patrick's Athletic. Maybe the small number over five years is a clue to the success aswell.

[swinfordfc]

Up to 29th placed - well done St Pats

[Martinho II]

Up to 29th placed - well done St Pats

excellent stuff. pity bohs and sligo couldnt have brought it higher ...

[CuanaD]

excellent stuff. pity bohs and sligo couldnt have brought it higher ...
True, but it has been a very difficult year & yet we have gained 1.25 points (5points/4teams) - this equates well with the year we just lost - 1.333 points (4points/3teams) & we still have at least 2 games to go - it's better than most of us would have hoped for 2 months ago

[Tony Soprano]

btw you all know that how many teams each country has, which rounds they enter - that has already been determined for next season (2010/11) if LOI teams score a load of points it will be season after next (ie 2011/12) before we see changes in the rounds we enter. . Points scored by teams (ie for deciding seeding within rounds) will count next season however - lets hope Pats qualify (looks like they may need to win FAI Cup though)

[PartySaint]

lets hope Pats qualify (looks like they may need to win FAI Cup though)

Ha good one

[MariborKev]

btw you all know that how many teams each country has, which rounds they enter - that has already been determined for next season (2010/11) if LOI teams score a load of points it will be season after next (ie 2011/12) before we see changes in the rounds we enter. . Points scored by teams (ie for deciding seeding within rounds) will count next season however - lets hope Pats qualify (looks like they may need to win FAI Cup though)

Thanks, had no idea about any of that:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Steve Bruce]

Could some one calculate the Irish Leagues for me................. :embarrasse: :D

[dcfcsteve]

Could some one calculate the Irish Leagues for me................. :embarrasse: :D

At a guess, very close to zero....... :D

[WexCar]

Could some one calculate the Irish Leagues for me................. :embarrasse: :D

website here (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html)

NI 49th place with 1.624pts and earned a hefty 0.125pts this year

[JC_GUFC]

I've just seen the graphs of rankings that are on the site.

In 1993 there were some "new" countries added with the break-up of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union. Before this there were 33 teams - Northern Ireland were 30th and Ireland 31st. The only leagues below us were Luxembourg and Malta.

There are now 20 more teams than there were and provisionally for 2010 we're up to 29th while Northern Ireland are 49th with Luxembourg and Malta still below them as well as San Marino and Andorra.

Ireland's highest ever ranking was 24th out of 33rd countries - we were last that high in 1985.

[HarpoJoyce]

I've just seen the graphs of rankings that are on the site.

In 1993 there were some "new" countries added with the break-up of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union. Before this there were 33 teams - Northern Ireland were 30th and Ireland 31st. The only leagues below us were Luxembourg and Malta.

There are now 20 more teams than there were and provisionally for 2010 we're up to 29th while Northern Ireland are 49th with Luxembourg and Malta still below them as well as San Marino and Andorra.

Ireland's highest ever ranking was 24th out of 33rd countries - we were last that high in 1985.


"1985" is really 1983.
The Dubs took over after that and everything went pear-shaped.
Northern Ireland strenghtend their lead with wins over shamrock rovers and 1:1 or 0:0 results in the Cup-Winners-Cup versus Dynamo Dresden ( and company). The Irish League showed the LoI the route out.
But it's a very shallow ramp.

In 1993-94 LoI were losing to Tavirya (never spelt like that with Irish sources) Simferipol [Of both The Crimea and The Ukraine] in the preliminary round of the Champions League.(Shels were unlucky, they had 3 good chances in the first ten minutes in Dublin including one that rolled along the goal-line before being cleared.)
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/season=1992/round=46/index.html

Glentoran were in the First Round competing against Olympique Marseilles.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/season=1992/round=47/index.html
OM eventually won out and went on to win the competition.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/index.html


I have no sympathy for posters that attempt to use UEFA/Co-Efficient history to try to malign Irish League football. The evidence is the reverse.
At present the LoI is above Hungary of the '1980's/1990's target leagues' that LoI supporters would have wanted to emulate. Iceland wasn't on our radar until they stuffed us 3-0 and 3-0. We had to aknowledge them then.

[dcfcsteve]

I have no sympathy for posters that attempt to use UEFA/Co-Efficient history to try to malign Irish League football. The evidence is the reverse.

I'm not sure what your point is here HarpoJoyce.

The evidence shows that the IL is weaker than the LOI, and weaker than almost every other league in Europe. Are you stating that this isn't the case ?

Whatever happened in the 1980's isn't relevant, and isn't evidence - it's history.

[HarpoJoyce]

I'm not sure what your point is here HarpoJoyce.

The evidence shows that the IL is weaker than the LOI, and weaker than almost every other league in Europe. Are you stating that this isn't the case ?

Whatever happened in the 1980's isn't relevant, and isn't evidence - it's history.

Why don't you re-read the post I quoted.

NI gets mentioned alot. The UEFA co-efficent is consistent enough that it is used as a continous line through the European history of many different leagues. You are unlucky, the table doesn't lie.

I agree that this is History. It's also evidence, plus the anecdotal individual match stuff.

[Steve Bruce]

At a guess, very close to zero.......

What comes around goes around. Really wasn't that long ago the LOI where behind the IL

[MariborKev]

What comes around goes around. Really wasn't that long ago the LOI where behind the IL

Football has irrevocably changed in the last twenty years. Therefore it is unlikely that what comes around will go around.

[JC_GUFC]

In 1993-94 LoI were losing to Tavirya (never spelt like that with Irish sources) Simferipol
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/season=1992/round=46/index.html

Glentoran were in the First Round competing against Olympique Marseilles.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/season=1992/round=47/index.html
OM eventually won out and went on to win the competition.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/index.html



That's pretty amazing when you think of it. LoI teams are getting to play bigger and bigger teams each year and not performing badly, although pretty defensive.


Why don't you re-read the post I quoted.

NI gets mentioned alot. The UEFA co-efficent is consistent enough that it is used as a continous line through the European history of many different leagues. You are unlucky, the table doesn't lie.

I agree that this is History. It's also evidence, plus the anecdotal individual match stuff.

I think you've totally misunderstood me Harpo.

I was pointing out the Irish League rankings because there are Irish League fans who read this forum - and most League of Ireland fans would have some bit of interest in the league.

It does show how we've moved in different directions since then but that wasn't the point I was making.

To be fair to the Irish League clubs they got very tough draws. Odense hammered Pat's a few years back and the Danish League is the best Scandinavian league at the moment so Linfield were unlikely to get anything. Glens had a tough draw and Crues performed as well as Sligo did.
Obviously being out of season for Distillery didn't help...

[dcfcsteve]

Why don't you re-read the post I quoted.

NI gets mentioned alot. The UEFA co-efficent is consistent enough that it is used as a continous line through the European history of many different leagues. You are unlucky, the table doesn't lie.

I agree that this is History. It's also evidence, plus the anecdotal individual match stuff.

I've treated myself by re-reading what you wrote both now and before. And I'm still none the clearer.

My out-take of what you've said is 'stop with the superiority over the IL people, as 20 years ago they were better than us'.

If that is a broadly correct summary of your point, then my response is 'so what' ? Huddersfield Town used to be one of the most successful clubs in England, but that doesn't stop Man United and a host of other clubs having bragging rights over them in this day and age.

We don't live in the past.

:ball:

[Steve Bruce]

Football has irrevocably changed in the last twenty years. Therefore it is unlikely that what comes around will go around.

LOI isn't very healthy at the moment financially. Who's to say what will happen inside the next 5 years?

Cork, Bohemians, Derry City, St Pats etc could all be forced to turn part-time (or worse, cease to exist)

The IFA president Kennedy has publicised his desire for summer football in the IL, which will leave our players fitter and sharper for Europe. Sponsorship, whilst still considerably less than the LOI IS increasing. Crowds at some clubs are going up steadily e.g. Coleraine and with recession a lot of players from England and Scotland are coming home again because clubs cannot afford to keep them on, so the level is gradually getting better.

Linfield have shown in the Setanta cup that we are not that far behind the top teams in the LOI (and we play makeshift teams as the Setanta cup is low down in our priorities), Glentoran have shown they are capable as well last year by getting to the final.

So yes I do believe what comes around goes around and the LOI and ILs gap will close in the future whether that's down to the LOI imploding or the IL getting better, or maybe a bit of both.

Time will tell.

[Steve Bruce]

I've treated myself by re-reading what you wrote both now and before. And I'm still none the clearer.

My out-take of what you've said is 'stop with the superiority over the IL people, as 20 years ago they were better than us'.

If that is a broadly correct summary of your point, then my response is 'so what' ? Huddersfield Town used to be one of the most successful clubs in England, but that doesn't stop Man United and a host of other clubs having bragging rights over them in this day and age.

We don't live in the past.

:ball:

Probably just as well, because Derry Citys history in the IL was very poor;):cool:

[Mr_Parker]

The IFA president Kennedy has publicised his desire for summer football in the IL, which will leave our players fitter and sharper for Europe.

:D You really think that just because that numpty thinks summer football would be good for us and it is his desire that it will happen? How many IL clubs have come out supporting his stance since he made those comments. The guy is lucky to know what day of the week it is!!

[ifk101]

LOI isn't very healthy at the moment financially. Who's to say what will happen inside the next 5 years?

Cork, Bohemians, Derry City, St Pats etc could all be forced to turn part-time (or worse, cease to exist)

The IFA president Kennedy has publicised his desire for summer football in the IL, which will leave our players fitter and sharper for Europe. Sponsorship, whilst still considerably less than the LOI IS increasing. Crowds at some clubs are going up steadily e.g. Coleraine and with recession a lot of players from England and Scotland are coming home again because clubs cannot afford to keep them on, so the level is gradually getting better.

Linfield have shown in the Setanta cup that we are not that far behind the top teams in the LOI (and we play makeshift teams as the Setanta cup is low down in our priorities), Glentoran have shown they are capable as well last year by getting to the final.

So yes I do believe what comes around goes around and the LOI and ILs gap will close in the future whether that's down to the LOI imploding or the IL getting better, or maybe a bit of both.

Time will tell.

Luxembourg, Andorra, Malta and San Marino are the only European countries with national leagues ranked lower than the Irish League. All four of these leagues picked up more ranking points than the IL this season and are likely to be ranked higher than the IL in the not to distant future. That is to say, it is highly probable that the IL will be ranked 53rd out of the 53 national European leagues in the next 3-5 years, if not sooner.

[Dodge]

Odense hammered Pat's a few years back and the Danish League is the best Scandinavian league at the moment so Linfield were unlikely to get anything.

We also got a vital half point for the co-eff with a home draw ;)

[Steve Bruce]

Luxembourg, Andorra, Malta and San Marino are the only European countries with national leagues ranked lower than the Irish League. All four of these leagues picked up more ranking points than the IL this season and are likely to be ranked higher than the IL in the not to distant future. That is to say, it is highly probable that the IL will be ranked 53rd out of the 53 national European leagues in the next 3-5 years, if not sooner.

As I said time will tell. Just like there's a decent chance that LOI as we know it will be completely different in the next 3-5 years.

I'm not overly concerned to be honest about European results. Our League perform badly, but I know the league as a whole will still be in existance in for the foreseable future. Whilst there are clubs who aren't exactly flush, none of them are close to extinction either.

[ifk101]

As I said time will tell.

Foot.ie's clairvoyant reveals all. ;)

[A N Mouse]

As I said time will tell. Just like there's a decent chance that LOI as we know it will be completely different in the next 3-5 years.

I'm not overly concerned to be honest about European results. Our League perform badly, but I know the league as a whole will still be in existance in for the foreseable future. Whilst there are clubs who aren't exactly flush, none of them are close to extinction either.

Not sure how you can say that. Have the IL instigated a wage cap yet? I know clubs may be slightly better run than when they were paying silly money left, right and centre. But none of them sailing close to the wind?

Ok there's easyjet now, but Portadown are still flying a player in every week.

And when the excrement hits the football supporter what happens? Put it down to the usual Derry whinging, if you want, but let's compare and contrast what happened when Derry City were called up on their taxes, with what happened Coleraine.

[dcfcsteve]

Probably just as well, because Derry Citys history in the IL was very poor;):cool:

Just as well really - a poor history for a poor league..... :)

[Steve Bruce]

Just as well really - a poor history for a poor league..... :)

Says more about your clubs history rather than the leagues does it not;)

[Steve Bruce]

Not sure how you can say that. Have the IL instigated a wage cap yet? I know clubs may be slightly better run than when they were paying silly money left, right and centre. But none of them sailing close to the wind?

Ok there's easyjet now, but Portadown are still flying a player in every week.

And when the excrement hits the football supporter what happens? Put it down to the usual Derry whinging, if you want, but let's compare and contrast what happened when Derry City were called up on their taxes, with what happened Coleraine.

There isn't a wage cap in effect in Irish League football. Coleraine very nearly went out of Business, like Cork nearly did. But Coleraine have appeared to have learnt their lesson, they have new people in charge and the club is run properly.

Portadown are AFAIK are in no financial danger, not flush with money by any means, but hardly sailing close to the wind either.

Glentoran I'd say are the club who are closest club to having real problems but they are taking steps to fix that problem.

In comparison to the LOI, the Irish League is fairly healthy finacially.