UEFA Coefficient

[DaveyCakes]

I was thinking more of Drogheda not winning in San Marino and Derry not beating Pyunik at home.

[pete]

For the 2008 draw we are 35th. We 35th best for 2007 year alone which is a big fall from recent seasons.

The 2009 seedings not decided until next seasons results in. We are 32rd (very close to next few countries) currently before next seasons results added.

Anyone know what has happened to Hungary. They used to average 3-4 but last 3 seasons only have 1 point every year. They are highest ranked country to have all teams eliminated. Maybe we need to get drawn against them next season?

[Schumi]

Anyone know what has happened to Hungary. They used to average 3-4 but last 3 seasons only have 1 point every year. They are highest ranked country to have all teams eliminated. Hungarian football has gone to **** recently. Their international team is brutal too, only ahead of Malta and Moldova in their qualifying group.

[CuanaD]

Aye, and if Pats or Drogs hadn't have drawn at home to vastly superior teams it could've been worse

I'm still happy that we are making progress. Yes I know this has been our lowest coefficient in 4 years, but we all knew that this year was going to be difficult after Shels imploded - this has been a consolidation year, but we still managed a full coefficient point (which we would have been VERY happy with only 5 years ago!)

Next year we start in 32nd place - with 21 countries ranked below us. Contrast this to the start of the millennium, when we were ranked 41st out of only 50 countries. If we can average 1.5 points per year (which we are at over the last 4 years) we will stay ranked in the low 30s & when we can make the next step up to 2+ points per year we will jump up to the mid 20s - along with countries like Poland, Sweden & Croatia - that's where we should be in the next 5 years.


Of course the next step above that brings you to the Norway/Switzerland/Greece/Denmark area - & regular participation in European Group stages etc - we have a few years to go before we get there, but that is a realistic 5-10 year goal IMHO.:ball:

[DaveyCakes]

I'm not so sure. Shels implosion suggests to me that some of the higher coefficients of previous years will be very hard to achieve unless another club tries to break the bank.

And I honestly don't see regular group stage qualification as realistic, unless something truly unforeseen happens. Occasional, yes, but regular, no.

[CuanaD]

I'm not so sure. Shels implosion suggests to me that some of the higher coefficients of previous years will be very hard to achieve unless another club tries to break the bank.

And I honestly don't see regular group stage qualification as realistic, unless something truly unforeseen happens. Occasional, yes, but regular, no.
Here's where we were in 2000:
41 Ireland 0.333 0.333 0.166 0.500 0.333 TOTAL: 1.665

Heres where we are for 2008:
35 Ireland 0.333 1.333 1.833 2.833 1.000 TOTAL: 7.332

I'm sure we can agree that is a HUGE increase.

IF we can continue this trend . . . .

[pineapple stu]

You've missed his point - the increase can be attributed in large part to clubs overstretching.

Clubs can't continue to lose a million a year.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm not so sure. Shels implosion suggests to me that some of the higher coefficients of previous years will be very hard to achieve unless another club tries to break the bank.



Neither Cork nor Derry broke the bank to add their co-efficient points....

[pete]

Looking back on this year even allowing for the draws I think its a disappointment.

* Derry City in poor form but i think would have hoped for home win & progression. Chance of something in the 2nd round.
* Pats got a very hard draw so home draw as much as could be expected. Lack of experience probably did not help either.
* Drogs got easy draw so obviously should have beaten San Marino side away from home.

If 1.0 points is the lowest in any 5 year spell maybe not so bad but will need to repeat seasons like last year too to boost up the rankings. I think we will plateau at about 30th.

Only Drogs look to be guaranteed Europe next season.

[pineapple stu]

Neither Cork nor Derry broke the bank to add their co-efficient points....
Cork had a winding up order only last year.

[pete]

Cork had a winding up order only last year.

Not remotely in the same league as Shels. It was a tool by the Revenue to force us to pay up.

[pineapple stu]

No one said it was in the same league as Shels.

However, with a winding up order and no programme for at least one game, you can't say Cork weren't overspending.

[TheBoss]

Ireland up 5 places since 2002/03.

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=584172.html?cid=rssfeed&att=index

[dcfcsteve]

Ireland up 5 places since 2002/03.

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=584172.html?cid=rssfeed&att=index

An average climb of one rank per year, and the highest climb in Europe. Not bad for a financially poor league like ours.

Will hopefully calm-down those who think we're regressing because of one relatively difficult year in Europe...

[gustavo]

An average climb of one rank per year, and the highest climb in Europe. Not bad for a financially poor league like ours.

Will hopefully calm-down those who think we're regressing because of one relatively difficult year in Europe...

We are regressing when compared with the previous four seasons upon which that statistic is build

[Steve Bruce]

And the results say the Irish League is way behind the Eircom league, and barely a spit above the Welsh.

You being a lover of the results will have to agree with what the coefficients say (even though you'll grasp onto your Setanta straws....)

I think the Setanta cup would be a better gauge between the leagues than Europe.

Eircom is certainly better, but then who argued otherwise:confused:

Linfield on the other hand would compete very comfortably in the EL

[pete]

I think the Setanta cup would be a better gauge between the leagues than Europe.
Linfield on the other hand would compete very comfortably in the EL

If Linfield are the standard the IL stacks up well but if you include the other 3 teams then would be lower Premier division at best.

[Steve Bruce]

If Linfield are the standard the IL stacks up well but if you include the other 3 teams then would be lower Premier division at best.

I would agree that IL as a whole is all together a lower standard. Unfortunately 1 good team doesn't make a league.

Although I'm quietly confident Cliftonville can pick up some favourable results in the Setanta.

Certainly couldn't do any worse than Glentoran and the rest.

[Steve Bruce]

To enter the European debate. I think LOI is going to hit their plateau very shortly. Yous have done trememdously well and have improved dramatically, but I think getting that next level up will take some time.

The main aim for now is to get every team seeded every year and that will make it a hell of a lot easier to progress. Obviously their can be the odd slip up but all in all a lot easier.

It would be great to see a LOI team or IL team reach the group stages of one of the two competitions(obviously IL is a long way away from LOI as it stands but hopefully we can close that gap in the next 5 years) It would prove that our product is a good product and hopefully entice supporters to come out and support their local team rather than Rangers/Celtic/ManUtd/Liverpool

[pete]

To enter the European debate. I think LOI is going to hit their plateau very shortly. Yous have done trememdously well and have improved dramatically, but I think getting that next level up will take some time.l

I agree. Getting beyond the top 30 will be difficult.

[JC_GUFC]

Next year we'll be making big gains on Slovenia and Hungary but above that it's countries like Sweden and Poland.

The fact is when a player goes from the Swedish league to the Premiership the fee is often well in excess of £1 million, likewise when players move from the Polish league to the Bundesliga.

If leagues in which there is this amount of money are ranked 26th it's very difficult to see our league consistantly gaining more coefficient points than these.

[DaveyCakes]

We were 38th this season. Below the likes of Iceland, Moldova, Armenia, Macedonia, Belarus..Disappointing.

[pete]

We were 38th this season. Below the likes of Iceland, Moldova, Armenia, Macedonia, Belarus..Disappointing.

Joint 37th? ;) 1 win in 8 & that was against San Marino side. :(
Hopefully 1.0 points is the lowest we get & 2.0 a realistic average per season.

I know I mentioned it before but the fall by Hungary is dramatic.



26th Hungary 4.833 4.166 1.000 1.000 1.000
Total 11.999


With numbers like that they will fall 20 odd places in 5 seasons. :eek:

[gspain]

Derry losing on Friday night means our UEFA Cup reps will both most likely be unseeded next season.

[dcfcsteve]

Next year we'll be making big gains on Slovenia and Hungary but above that it's countries like Sweden and Poland.

The fact is when a player goes from the Swedish league to the Premiership the fee is often well in excess of £1 million, likewise when players move from the Polish league to the Bundesliga.

If leagues in which there is this amount of money are ranked 26th it's very difficult to see our league consistantly gaining more coefficient points than these.

As we've seen over the last 4 seasons in Europe, Swedish teams are no great shakes. No reason why we can't be much closer to them in the coefficient rankings.

The last time an EL side played a Polish one we put them out as well (Rovers v Odra in 2002 or 2003).

[paudie]

Just updating this

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

We're currently ranked 33rd for this season, up from 35th last year. However I think the likes of Hungary might improve in the next couple of rounds.

As regards seeding for next year we should still be seeded in the CL.

However we're still behind LAtvia and Lithuania so we should be unseeded in the UEFA Cup in 2009/2010, unless Derry qualify who have a higher club seeding than the leagues. That may change depending on Pats and Drogs results but it would a few wins for us to overtake Latvia.

In 2010/2011, all things going well we should be ahead of LAtvia and Lithuania and seeded in the UEFA Cup.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2010.html

Although I've just remembered the UEFA Cup is changing next season with the abolition of the Intertoto so all the above might be irrelevant:D

[swinfordfc]

We need Glasgow Rangers to win tonight and thus knock out the lithaunia side - me supporting a scottish side - never :D

[higgins]

We will be seeded in the UEFA Cup next year from what I can tell.
At this stage we're looking at bye into 2nd and 3rd rounds of the competition.

I'm surprised with the results Lithuania get to be honest. When shels played that Vetra crowd they were the worst side I've watched in european football, worse than Hibernians and Glentoran.

[Dodge]

That'd be the Hibernians that knocked you out?

Its looking like our cup winners will be unseed in the 2nd qualifying round with 2nd and 3rd in the league being seeded in the 1st qualifying round. There's a chance that 2nd in the league may go into the 2nd qualifying round

[higgins]

Yes Dodge, the ones that knocked us out :)

Our CL side will also skip past the first round next season. Bottom 6 are in a Qualifying Round 0 ! stupid name but Northern Ireland look to be 7th last and just avoided it.

[higgins]

If we assume all the seeds win through from QR1 of the UEFA Cup our three teams will be placed 46 47 and 48 of the 80 teams in QR2.

If this draw is split into regions and there are some upsets in QR1 we may all be seeded in QR2.

With one of the three teams already through to the QR2 does anyone think it's better to get a bye through QR1 as our Cup Winner or to get the extra two games in europe against an easy side ?

I take it most clubs would like to play these extra two games for the income and exposure you get from winning in europe?

[Dodge]

The individual club rankings could push us down somewhat too (I think only Derry would be above the LOI ranking and could move up)

Personally I'd prefer to be seeded in QR1 and get through that. However if UEFA get rid of the regions, I'm not sure if I wouldn't change that opinion

[higgins]

I don't like the regions.
Travel in 2008 is easy enough to most parts or europe/asia!

Hopefully they don't keep this regions nonsense.

Not many clubs will have team coefficients. You're basically looking at the kind of teams that were in the Intertoto in that first qualifying round, would be very few that have a team value higher than their country.

[Dodge]

We've been helped by the regions (last year Drogheda were the lowest seeds in the UEFA cup by some distance with about 6 teams higher ranked and unseeded)

And the cost of travelling to, say, Moscow is still a massive amount compared to any of the current northern regions

[pete]

Bad news for coefficient competitors today. Venspils beat Brann 2-1 in CL qualifier but lost out on away goals after 2-2 aggregate score. Lithuania up to provisional 27th this year.

No regions in the CL which is why Derry City had to travel to Asia last year. Dropping regions would be bad news for the LOI even if seeded - expensive to travel to former USSR asian Republics any time of the year.

[Dazzy]

No regions in the CL which is why Derry City had to travel to Asia last year. Dropping regions would be bad news for the LOI even if seeded - expensive to travel to former USSR asian Republics any time of the year.

Flight cost roughly 350-400, the charter that the club looked into was costing over 1000stg per person for travel based on a full plane, so the regions help.

[higgins]

Didn't UEFA increase the prize money for each round from 50K to 100K last year ?

If you can't organise a trip to an away game for 20 people with 100K you deserve to lose all the money you have.

I think no regions is much better.
Otherwise we will have to keep going to Sweden every year! :)

[pete]

If you can't organise a trip to an away game for 20 people with 100K you deserve to lose all the money you have.


I think you would be looking at closer to 30 people. Even trips to Northern Europe will cost minimum of 1k a person. Charters to asia are not cheap as not easy for airplane to get other business in the region for the few days on site. Sweden can be done on direct commercial flight & even that is not cheap at short notice.

Uefa prize money might be 70-80k a round. CL is 100k with bones for teams not making the group stages.

[Dodge]

Kaunus of Lithuania just beat Rangers to knock them out. They have a genuine chance of making the Champions League. They were ranked two places ahead of Drogheda. Puts the Drogheda draw into more focus now

[HarpoJoyce]

Just updating this

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

We're currently ranked 33rd for this season, up from 35th last year. However I think the likes of Hungary might improve in the next couple of rounds.

As regards seeding for next year we should still be seeded in the CL.

However we're still behind LAtvia and Lithuania so we should be unseeded in the UEFA Cup in 2009/2010, unless Derry qualify who have a higher club seeding than the leagues. That may change depending on Pats and Drogs results but it would a few wins for us to overtake Latvia.

In 2010/2011, all things going well we should be ahead of LAtvia and Lithuania and seeded in the UEFA Cup.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2010.html

Although I've just remembered the UEFA Cup is changing next season with the abolition of the Intertoto so all the above might be irrelevant:D


All Bert Kassiesa..CRANK2009.NL lovers

I have a question which has never been fully answered, even ignored.
The measurement system is designed to be calculated end of June/start of July and is then fixed for the season following, usually beginning 12 or 13 months after.
The only time the table is 'updated' is when the one year is added and the 'sixth' year previously is deducted, in June/July of each year.

The current table was calculated in June 2007 for this seasons seedings and distribution of club to the various competitions.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html *

The seeding and distribution of clubs has already been decided
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html *

So what's happening this year won't affect LoI clubs 'til 2010.

If this is known (if it wasn't, then you're welcome.),
Why hasn't someone else corrected paudie's post?
Is it possible to keep the micro-management of Irish Football in Europe to one thread as the false-measurement is contaminating alot of threads on European Football?

I know all Bert Kassiesa enthusiasts will give me a reply.

* I'm using the same source as yourselves so that it will not be disputed.

[pete]

The current table was calculated in June 2007 for this seasons seedings and distribution of club to the various competitions.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html *

The seeding and distribution of clubs has already been decided
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html *

So what's happening this year won't affect LoI clubs 'til 2010.


Correct. Spoilsport :(

[paudie]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html

Revised format of the UEFA Cup in 2009/10. With the Intertoto gone we'll have 3 teams in the UEFA Cup.
2nd and 3rd in the league go into first qualifying round. Cup winners go into 2nd qualifying round, which is a good bonus for winning a trophy IMO.

[paudie]

You're right HarpoJoyce, though I'm sure you knew that:D

The access list for 08/09 http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html is the same as the 2007 country ranking http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html.

Therefore the 2009 ranking will effect the 2010/11 season

[Dodge]

That access list isn't official

[finnpark]

So with the extra UEFA Cup round they have made it even harder to qualify for the UEFA Cup group stages :mad:

The bigger nations are really screwing the small countries

[paudie]

That access list isn't official

You mean Bert isn't the Master of the Universe?:p

[higgins]

Still think you're missing the point!

Who cares if the 2009 result won't change the placings until the 2010/11 season?

The real difference is made in the country coefficient and that changes as we go along so even if you go in as 35th seeds which we did this year we are still higher when you take the coefficient.
The delayed ranking is only used for round placing and number of teams, means nothing in terms of seedings!

[pete]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html

Revised format of the UEFA Cup in 2009/10. With the Intertoto gone we'll have 3 teams in the UEFA Cup.
2nd and 3rd in the league go into first qualifying round. Cup winners go into 2nd qualifying round, which is a good bonus for winning a trophy IMO.

Based on that (who knows what Uefa might decide next year) means LOI starting 35th.

* When get to 34th 2nd place in the league goes direct to Uefa round 2.
* If we make it to 27th Cup Winner goes direct to 3rd round of Uefa Cup.

Does it mean top 12 countries stay away from other CL qualifiers? If that is correct seems like 5 teams from the remainder 13-53 rankings make it into the group stages. It would be like beating top seeds from this years 2nd qualifying round. Chances of group stages a lot more attainable.

[Dodge]

For the Champions league, the highest ranked country an Irish team could face to make the group stgaes would be 13 Belgium (in the example above), and as other years, we'd have 3 games to win. Anderlecht were knocked out by BATE Borisov last night. If that happened next year they'd be in the group stages

[bigmac]

So what's happening this year won't affect LoI clubs 'til 2010.



Correct with respect to the number of European places and where we enter the competitions. However the seeding next season will be based on our position at the end of this year.