Rugby World Cup

[joeSoap]

We'll see. They both beat Samoa, and England got hammered by S. Africa, Tonga only lost by 5 points

Why do you think there's "not a chance"?You take each game on its individual merit. By your logic, England beat Samoa by 20 points, and Tonga only beat them by 4, so therefore England are 16 points a better side than Tonga?

England with Wilkinson back are a different proposition, and with Sackey and Cueto and Lewsey they have a pretty nifty back three. Their forwards are a very formidable unit. All round, they will be too strong for Tonga by about 15-20 points in my opinion. They will make the quarter finals, then get well beaten by whoever awaits.

As for Tonga running S.Africa close...they ran a second string S.Africa close, who always knew they were just about doing enough.

[bennocelt]

two very entertaining games today. Take a bow Tonga and Samoa, how I wish you had won today. Bravery, guts and flair.


yeah , best game of the wrold cup so far was Tonga - SA, brilliant edge of the seat stuff, and if only that ball in the end hoped in
Samoa were good for a while too

Why cant Ireland play like that?
O sullivan? dont know, but i actually think Ireland should have had two 6 nations champs by now, moral victories and the like are boring..............and so far from this world cup we can see that Northern hemisphere rugby isnt all that good

[pete]

Tonga are better than Samoa but England look better with recent team changes even its its largely a 1-10 game. I know they score tries but they didn't really create them as more to do with Samoa mistakes.

RSA missed a lot of penalties that would have put them out of sight. Still hoping Tonga can have a go even if England favourites.

[pineapple stu]

First time I've properly noticed how much of a joke it is to pretend that we sing 'Ireland's Call' with the same passion as the French sing their national anthem, shameful for any Irishman to be honest
:D

Oh the irony about Irish people saying how passionately the French sing their anthem when we had to sing theirs for them in Paris only a couple of years ago!

[osarusan]

if..........if...........if............we beat Argentina by less than 7 points, while scoring 4 or more tries, then both teams would end with 15 points.

Meanwhile, France win and get 5 points, which means all three have 15 points.

So it moves to individual results against teams, where we've all beaten each other.

Then it moves on to points difference, where we are the worst.

Is there any way France will not qualify? I'd like us and Argentina to go through.

Any way they won't score 4 tries against Georgia?

Any way I'll stop fantasizing??

[Soko]

It can be done, probably not by this team though

[shakermaker1982]

if..........if...........if............we beat Argentina by less than 7 points, while scoring 4 or more tries, then both teams would end with 15 points.

Meanwhile, France win and get 5 points, which means all three have 15 points.

So it moves to individual results against teams, where we've all beaten each other.

Then it moves on to points difference, where we are the worst.

Is there any way France will not qualify? I'd like us and Argentina to go through.

Any way they won't score 4 tries against Georgia?

Any way I'll stop fantasizing??

you mean we have to beat the Argies by more than 7 (to stop them getting a BP) and score 4 tries.

[OneRedArmy]

Somebody a page or so back asked if the criticism of Eddie O'Sullivan was a recent phenomena.

Well its not. Most of the rugby writers in the serious papers (Thornley, Cronin, Francis) have been critical of him for at least the last 2-3 years. Plenty of fans have been critical going back quite a while, including a few on here along with me.

Here's why the World Cup debacle is primarily Eddie's fault. It can all be boiled down into one overall flaw, which manifests itself in different ways, and thats a demonstrable fear of change.

This displays itself in a number of ways
Flaw No 1. Relying on 15 players. In the professional era rugby has featured taller, faster and heavier players colliding with each other more frequently than in the past. This high level of attrition means that rugby matches are now 22 man affairs and compressed tournaments require all 30 players to get significant game time. Ireland have done neither under O'Sullivan.
Rotating players also keeps the incumbent sharp when they know there is a deputy able to step in. Ronan O'Gara was arguably at his best during his rivalry with David Humphreys in the two years before Humphreys retired. O'Sullivan entered this World Cup with most understudies having splinters in their arses.

Flaw No 2. Tactics that never change.As players got fitter and stronger which shrinks the space on the field and the new rules slowed the ball coming out of rucks, continuity has become crucially important to winning games against good sides. Offloading the ball in the tackle is a key skill imported from rugby league and is practiced by most of the better nations. Ireland attempt this less than other top nations. We have not reacted to the changing nature of the game. We also try less grubber kicks and other tactics to beat a rush defence. We only started using the cross kick in the last year, approximately 4 years after England borrowed it from rugby league.

Likewise, we rarely do anything other than ship the ball to the two centres. Without scrum-half breaks, blindside moves, kicks like the one the French scored on on Friday and other variations this allows the opposition back row to drift to the middle of the pitch, giving our backs, even those of the quality of O'Driscoll and D'Arcy almost zero chance of creating anything as they get closed down immediately. Even when we tried something different on Friday (Garryowen), we did about 6 in a row and most fell harmlessly inside the 22 and were marked.

Eddie plays rugby by numbers and has drilled it into the players so well, they have been remarkably successful using this approach. But when Plan A doesn't work, we don't have a Plan B, C and D. We rarely come back into games the other team takes the lead in.

Flaw No 3. Stubborness Trevor Brennan, Bob Casey, Alan Quinlan, David Wallace and many others have been unfortunate enough to miss out on matches because Eddie doesn't place enough emphasis on form. Players only seem to change through injury and through retirement. The more the media clamour for someone to be in the squad, the more Eddie seems to relish leaving it untouched.

The Ireland squad aren't the World beaters we thought they might be 12 months ago. precisely because the first XV peaked about 12-18 months ago and have been on a slide ever since. The back up players may not be as talented, but Eddie's conservative approach means we are never going to know how well we could've done at this tournament.

Here's my team for Argentina but we've about as much chance of seeing it as we do of Eddie admitting he made major errors......

15. Duffy
14. Murphy
13. O'Driscoll
12. Trimble
11. Carney
10. Wallace
9. Redden

8. Ferris
7. Best
6. Quinlan
5. O'Connell
4. O'Kelly
3. Hayes
2. Flannery
1. Young

[TheBoss]

if..........if...........if............we beat Argentina by less than 7 points, while scoring 4 or more tries, then both teams would end with 15 points.

Meanwhile, France win and get 5 points, which means all three have 15 points.

So it moves to individual results against teams, where we've all beaten each other.

Then it moves on to points difference, where we are the worst.

Is there any way France will not qualify? I'd like us and Argentina to go through.

Any way they won't score 4 tries against Georgia?

Any way I'll stop fantasizing??

In simple terms, Ireland have to beat Argentina by 50 points, providing, Ireland get 4 tries and Argentina do not.

[feo123]

not being a big rugby fan, although i always watch ireland when they play, what are the younger players like coming through the ranks....from the younger players in the senior squad, to the under 21's and 19's etc? is the future bright like?

[gilberto_eire]

dont know much about international level but connacht under-18's done a ''Grand Slam'' against the other provinces last year and beat munster 18-0 in the same age group this year last week.... there must be some good players in those teams!!

[osarusan]

you mean we have to beat the Argies by more than 7 (to stop them getting a BP) and score 4 tries.
No, less than 7, so they do get a bonus point. I'm looking at the scenario where all teams end on 15 points.


In simple terms, Ireland have to beat Argentina by 50 points, providing, Ireland get 4 tries and Argentina do not.
See above.





if..........if...........if............we beat Argentina by less than 7 points, while scoring 4 or more tries, then both teams would end with 15 points.

Meanwhile, France win and get 5 points, which means all three have 15 points.

So it moves to individual results against teams, where we've all beaten each other.

Then it moves on to points difference, where we are the worst.

Is there any way France will not qualify? I'd like us and Argentina to go through.



I want Ireland and Argentina to go through.

[shakermaker1982]

I get you now. I thought you were advocating it doesn't really matter if Argies pick up a BP. I see you were trying to get us all on 15 points! Apologies.

I hope we try and play like we did against Italy in Rome back in March. We have nothing to lose.

[OneRedArmy]

How anyone could have any hope this team will score one try let alone 4 is mindblowing.

The only area we have performed adequately in (scrum) will be absolutely munched on Sunday.

I'd be genuinely surprised if we get one try.

[joeSoap]

Argentinas game is very much pivotal on their out half, whoever it may be. If Hernandez is fit, then we're in trouble, as I believe he has been by far the most impressive out half in the tournament to date. There is a doubt over his fitness however, and I'm praying that he will be out, because in that case Dr. Phil will be out half.

He will be well known to our pack especially, who destroyed him in a certain Heineken Cup semi a few seasons ago. It is widely acknowledged that he is temperamental, and really doesn't like it when things aren't going his way. I think if he is out half, that represents our best chance of qualification.

Providing......of course Eddie makes the necessary changes, which in my book are to drop Marcus, Donncha, Leamy, and Trimble. I think Dempsey is injured. I'd play Wally at 8, Quinny and Easterby as my flanks, Mal for quick ball off the line out and to take pressure off O'Connell. Behind the scrum, Murphy and Carney must come in.

[RogerMilla]

Providing......of course Eddie makes the necessary changes, which in my book are to drop Marcus, Donncha, Leamy, and Trimble. I think Dempsey is injured. I'd play Wally at 8, Quinny and Easterby as my flanks, Mal for quick ball off the line out and to take pressure off O'Connell. Behind the scrum, Murphy and Carney must come in.


all good calls but we have more chance of seeing willie john come back than murphy.. he must have ran over o'sullivans pet dog.

[OneRedArmy]

Argentinas game is very much pivotal on their out half, whoever it may be. If Hernandez is fit, then we're in trouble, as I believe he has been by far the most impressive out half in the tournament to date. There is a doubt over his fitness however, and I'm praying that he will be out, because in that case Dr. Phil will be out half.

He will be well known to our pack especially, who destroyed him in a certain Heineken Cup semi a few seasons ago. It is widely acknowledged that he is temperamental, and really doesn't like it when things aren't going his way. I think if he is out half, that represents our best chance of qualification.

Providing......of course Eddie makes the necessary changes, which in my book are to drop Marcus, Donncha, Leamy, and Trimble. I think Dempsey is injured. I'd play Wally at 8, Quinny and Easterby as my flanks, Mal for quick ball off the line out and to take pressure off O'Connell. Behind the scrum, Murphy and Carney must come in.
Given we need to score 4 tries I'd be less worried about Argentina's attacking than our own ability to create scores. Our defence against France was actually okay, up until the tipping point in the second half when the burden of constant defending finally took its toll. No team could defend for as long as we did and not concede a number of scores.

Its hard to see where our scores with come from. We are unlikely to be able to maul the Argentina pack around or attack close in as they have a formindable pack. We lack any real pace out wide and BOD and D'Arcy have spent the whole tournament lying flat which makes it impossible to attack at pace on a penetrative line.

I don't know if we are sticking with O'Gara out of loyalty at this stage but we need a change at 10. If Wallace isn't up to it then put Murphy in there.

[Lim till i die]

Wouldn't claim to know nearly as much about rugby as the joesoaps of this board but as a casual observer i've a few questions about Friday night

How can Flannery be considered to have played so well when the lineout was so poor??

A lot of people have given out about the ref but is it fair to say a differnet ref could have been far harsher on John Hayes at the scrum?

Is one of Ireland's major problems a lack of imagination at the breakdown?? Every ball is played to the centres so opponents can take men off the blindeside and just set up a wall O'Driscoll and D'arcy can't get through??

Anyone else think Paul O'Connell was an absolute disgrace?? On four seperate occasions before he was sin-binned I was screaming at him to get back on his own side. If I could see it what makes him think the ref couldn't??

[shakermaker1982]

How can Flannery be considered to have played so well when the lineout was so poor??


O'Connell and co were as much to blame for the lineout disaster as Flannery was. To be fair even with Best throwing the ball in - our lineout (something we have excelled at for the past few seasons) has been disappointing. On the whole I thought Flannery was decent in the loose as was John Hayes.

What really disappointed me was that our players did not challenge the French lineout. The odd lineout steal would have been useful instead we waited.....

[Superhoops]

....Anyone else think Paul O'Connell was an absolute disgrace?? On four seperate occasions before he was sin-binned I was screaming at him to get back on his own side. If I could see it what makes him think the ref couldn't??

I posted this during the game on Friday night.

Jesus, O'Connell is some ********. How the f**k did he think he was going to get away with that kind of stupidity in front of Chris White. Sin Bin fully deserved. F**k all use sitting on the sideline. He should be dropped for the last game.

So, so frustrating from what many have considered to be the best second row in the northern hemisphere. Personally, I always thought that although he could be good he was overated. 2 seasons ago he had a good run of games for Munster and Ireland, but this year he had been ordinary at best, apart from one great game against England in CP.

[OneRedArmy]

O'Connell and co were as much to blame for the lineout disaster as Flannery was. To be fair even with Best throwing the ball in - our lineout (something we have excelled at for the past few seasons) has been disappointing. On the whole I thought Flannery was decent in the loose as was John Hayes.

What really disappointed me was that our players did not challenge the French lineout. The odd lineout steal would have been useful instead we waited.....Agree. Flannery's loose play made up for the line-out problems.

Its not automatically the hookers fault and O'Connell as signal caller should at least take some of the blame for continuing to call to the tail. When the lineout isn't functioning you throw a few to the front jumper and/or cut the numbers to build a bit of confidence. You don't throw high risk ball to the tail.

Whilst I understand the reasons behind not challenging opposition lineout near the line, I fail to understand not doing it further up the pitch.

[TheBoss]

if..........if...........if............we beat Argentina by less than 7 points, while scoring 4 or more tries, then both teams would end with 15 points.

Meanwhile, France win and get 5 points, which means all three have 15 points.

So it moves to individual results against teams, where we've all beaten each other.

Then it moves on to points difference, where we are the worst.

Is there any way France will not qualify? I'd like us and Argentina to go through.

Any way they won't score 4 tries against Georgia?

Any way I'll stop fantasizing??

At the moment before the games:

Argentina - 14
France - 10
Ireland - 9

Ireland max is 14 not 15.

Ireland can not finish on 15 points

[osarusan]

At the moment before the games:

Argentina - 14
France - 10
Ireland - 9

Ireland max is 14 not 15.

Ireland can not finish on 15 points

Right. I'm wrong again :o. Cheers. If Argentina get a bonus point, they win the group? (having won the France game)

[shakermaker1982]

Right. I'm wrong again :o. Cheers. If Argentina get a bonus point, they win the group? (having won the France game)

yep because they have the better head to head. Hence all the French will be rooting for us to give em a thrashing!!! :D

[OneRedArmy]

yep because they have the better head to head. Hence all the French will be rooting for us to give em a thrashing!!! :DUs going through would mean that France would play Scotland at home in the QFs instead of All Blacks in Wales.

Real incentive for France to see us through. The ref isn't Jutge by any chance?:D

[pete]

Its hard to know what team to pick for next week but thats what O'Sullivan is picked for. Persist with out of form players hoping they turn it around or draft in fresh players who don't have match fitness?

Argentina are capable of keeping possession so its important to pick a team that can both get the ball & keep it. Will be important not to kick the ball away stupidly like the previous games.

Team: Dempsey, Horgan, O'Driscoll, Trimble/Duffy, Murphy, O'Gara, Reddan, Horan, Best/Flannery Hayes, O'Connell, O'Kelly, Wallace, Leamy, Best.

Bench: Young, Best/Flannery, Quinlan, Easterby, Wallace, Trimble/Duffy, Hickie.

Some players have poor form but just can't see the alternatives

[shakermaker1982]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/irish/7010781.stm

our chance of scoring 4 tries take another hit......

[Torn-Ado]

I was intriuged by Neil Francis' team, he picked for Argentina. All out attack in the backs:

Dempsey

Carney
Darcy
Horgan
Hickie

O Driscoll
Reddan.

Drop O Gara and the kicking game and attack them using a running game. Go for the tries and use Dempsey to kick conversions etc. Interesting to say the least.

Never going happen though.

[OneRedArmy]

The fallacy that Horgan is a centre persists in Francis' head.

Apart from that its worth trying, although I'd prefer Murphy at fullback.

[Real ale Madrid]

I was intriuged by Neil Francis' team, he picked for Argentina. All out attack in the backs:

Dempsey

Carney
Darcy
Horgan
Hickie

O Driscoll
Reddan.

Drop O Gara and the kicking game and attack them using a running game. Go for the tries and use Dempsey to kick conversions etc. Interesting to say the least.

Never going happen though.


the dropping of O'Gara was a bit pie in the sky tho, thats never going to happen to be honest id agree with most of what he said - is go with the following team

Horan,Flannery,Hayes

O'Kelly, O'Connell - Bringing in a bit more experience might shore up our lineout

Easterby, Wallace, Quinlan - leamy hasn't played that well so bring on Quinlan for a bit of extra enthusaism

Reddan, O'Gara

Carney and Horgan - wings - play Carney at 11 , Drop Trimble

O'Driscoll, Darcy

and Id go with Murphy full back - Murphy can provide a bit of magic and i see no reason why he shouldn't play if we are chasing 4 tries. Tough on Dempsey tho.

[Torn-Ado]

Dempsey shouldn't be dropped. He is one of the few players to come away from these farcical few weeks with pass marks.

[pete]

Dempsey shouldn't be dropped. He is one of the few players to come away from these farcical few weeks with pass marks.

Never been his biggest fan but Argentina will kick a lot of ball so need someone dependable but he also needs to be told that when its a 50:50 decision he has to run with the ball in hand.

[OneRedArmy]

Dempsey shouldn't be dropped. He is one of the few players to come away from these farcical few weeks with pass marks.Dempsey has got a surprising number of tries in his career, important ones as well, but they tend to come where he comes in at the end of a move and finishes off.

A strike running fullback who attacks from deep he ain't.

[osarusan]

If we don't go through, I'd like to see the French get whipped by the All Blacks in the 1/4 finals.

[joeSoap]

Everybody Hates England...apparently (http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/07/09/25/WORLDCUP_Australia_ONeill.html)

[joeSoap]

Dempsey injured- Murphy starting. Trimble dropped for Hickie. AN Other at hooker...Flannery injured. Bye Bye World Cup...

[Over the post]

A lot of people seem fierce anxious to axe O'Callaghan and Easterby when (together with Hayes) they were the best of our forwards against France. For me Wallace, O'Connell and Horan have been the most disappointing but we've no real alternative to Wallace or Horan and, despite his muppetry the other night, most people would still baulk at the idea of dropping O'Connell.

The pack isn't performing well and even if they do get their act together for the Argentinean game, I can't see them mauling their way over the line; we're going to something special from the backs...

Ah sure who cares?! We don't deserve to go through, it'd be a terrible injustice on the Argentineans.

[OneRedArmy]

So thats Eddie's version of throwing caution to the wind......sweet jesus.

I also love people saying "there are no real alternatives". Yes there are. There are alternatives in every position.

Surely we are well beyond the point of not playing them because they haven't previously set the world on fire.

Its broken Eddie, change it you moron.

[joeSoap]

This team would cause most damage against the Argies imo:(Dempsey injured)

Murphy; Horgan, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Carney; O'Gara, Reddan; Young, Flannery, Hayes;, O'Connell, O'Kelly; Best (6), Quinlan (7), Easterby (8).

[beautifulrock]

So thats Eddie's version of throwing caution to the wind......sweet jesus.



Has the team been selected then, I cant see it on BBC or RTE ??

[Over the post]

This team would cause most damage against the Argies imo:(Dempsey injured)

Murphy; Horgan, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Carney; O'Gara, Reddan; Young, Flannery, Hayes;, O'Connell, O'Kelly; Best (6), Quinlan (7), Easterby (8).

Again, I don't thing Donnacha deserves to be dropped, but the other changes make sense. I don't think either Horgan or Hickie are 100% fit so Carney could replace either of them. I'd love to see Leamy coming off the bench as an impact sub, still smarting after being dropped, wouldn't like to be the recipient of his first tackle :D

[ifk101]

Only changes (so far) are Murphy for Dempsey and Hickie for Trimble.

[OneRedArmy]

Has the team been selected then, I cant see it on BBC or RTE ??http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/irish/7012164.stm

[beautifulrock]

Thanks, not really going for it. Cant believe Quinlan did not even make the bench. Can a miracle occur in Paris on sunday evening? We need a try in the first 10 minutes to have even the faintest hope.

[shakermaker1982]

disappointed Neil Best isn't starting.

[pete]

Back to basics.

It might have been a risk but O'Sullivan could have gone with 5 forwards & pick Quinlan. Wallace will never come off the bench anyway.

[Over the post]

Apart from Neil Best I can't see any of the replacements having a meaningful impact, I'd have Quinlan and Carney on the bench at least.

[Soko]

Its not like that team has set the world on fire. Why does he insist on giving it so many chances?


This whole thing has been a bigger farce than Saipan. We get the biggest gaps between games in the entire competition and O' Sullivan thinks it gives him the abilty to keep the same team, game in game out. ********

[IsMiseSean]

Quinlan and Carney should be on the bench. Carney signed for munster so he would have a great chance of playin the RWC and he is gone all that way for nothing, I think it's a disgrace that he didn't get a game against Georgia or Namibia, a place on the bench should have been the minimun for this game. How does Trimble deserve a place on the bench for this game?

[IsMiseSean]

Back to basics.

Wallace will never come off the bench anyway.

Wallace's place on the bench could have gone to an extra forward or back. If ROG did get injuired Murphy could fill in at FH, he played there in Argentina in the summer, not a great display but its a risk we should take. Wallace has no use in this game whatsoever :mad: