FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[WeAreRovers]

:
You seem to imply that 800 in Kildare or 300 at Castlebar is some sort of financial windfall. Its not - its peanuts in the general scheme of things. Eircom League clubs do NOT meet their costs via attendances - and LETS FACE REALITY HERE -


So the 8 grand that Rovers fans put into the coffers of Kildare County is peanuts? It's precisely because of the perillous nature of eL club's finances that crowds matter.

Relatively large attendances help pay the bills and, shock, horror, actually convey the message that something worthwhile is going on ie. a football match that people might want to attend. It's called marketing.

Nobody can seriously say that the "crowd" at the DC/UCD game was not an embarrassment to Irish football. This has to stop and this document is a step in the right direction.

I agree about the 10-team format and especially with Jerry the Saint's point about the constant "give it a lash and see what happens" mentality that gave us summer football, 10 team/12 team leagues etc.

The bottom line is that Dermot Keely described the 1st division as a "wilderness" but as someone pointed out on our board, wherever DC play is a wilderness.

KOH

[higgins]

Higgins, you're living in a dream world, a reckless one at that. You'll arbitrarily relegate clubs for the craic and have a wee look at what happens, and if nothing does, sure why not, no harm done. Wrong. These changes are another in a long line of querks and quick fixes implemented by the authorities that have done nothing for the game as vividly pointed out by wws. You think someone may have randomly turned up to Dub City v UCD and been put off eL for life? Come on. There are more than enough big games in the Premier Division not to turn someone off if they're that fickle.

For life ? NO
For years yes ..

Word of mouth is a big factor in Ireland. It can make or break this idea.
If you were faced with a crowd of 83 at your first EL game what would you think ?

You yet again fail to see how it look on the outside to the non EL fan.

Ive brought many to Tolka with crowds over a 1000 and still got the 'there's not many here' remarks.
If you don’t think crowds at games make it a better occasion its not surprising you’re a UCD fan.

As for the above comment that 1,500 is enough for your needs ???
Do you not think the fact the current ground in Belfield is a complete and utter sh!thole that it may have some reason why your crowds are so low?
Do you not think with a better ground you may aim for over 1,500 seats?

I think the minimum requirement of 1,500 seats is far too low. Anyone who comes to an EL premier league game in the year 2006 should at the very least expect to sit down and watch the game in some sort of comfort.

You honestly telling us 1,500 is all you need in this new ground?

Even if your average is well under 1,500 you may very well get a crowd of 2,000 at some stage and to have 500 forced to stand it only serves to back up the opinion that the grounds in the EL are rubbish.

You lot don’t seem to have any ambition.
Calling it pragmatism is foolish.

Your holding the league back

Ideally I would like the FAI to implement the Club Licence in full and rid the premier of clubs like UCD by requirement issues but I'm happy to go along with the round about way it has the same happy ending.

[wws]

So the 8 grand that Rovers fans put into the coffers of Kildare County is peanuts? It's precisely because of the perillous nature of eL club's finances that crowds matter.

Relatively large attendances help pay the bills and, shock, horror, actually convey the message that something worthwhile is going on ie. a football match that people might want to attend. It's called marketing.

Nobody can seriously say that the "crowd" at the DC/UCD game was not an embarrassment to Irish football. This has to stop and this document is a step in the right direction.

I agree about the 10-team format and especially with Jerry the Saint's point about the constant "give it a lash and see what happens" mentality that gave us summer football, 10 team/12 team leagues etc.

The bottom line is that Dermot Keely described the 1st division as a "wilderness" but as someone pointed out on our board, wherever DC play is a wilderness.

KOH


yes it is peanuts and not a reason to relegate a club. Clubs with twice and three and four times that figure at the gate DO NOT meet current running costs¬! and that is a FACT

The idea that the crowd, or lack of at Dublin City - UCD is an impediment to the progress of any club in the first division (or prem) is wrong. Totally wrong. The crowds are not significant enough to warrant special weightings and favouritism. Even the crowds you quote wouldn't impress any unsold non el attender - in fact they're equally as off putting to a new customer bred on the real premiership were boros crowds are seen as "embaressing" to tv fed fans - what hope 800/900 at a poxy el game impressing them. It is called marketing, and acknowledging the horrifically low base is the first step to trying to incrementally improve it.

People will not be flocking to el games based on these proposals. Therefore you have to question what merit they have at all especially when they deliberately circumvent footballing merit - this would be a bigger killer for the league's credibility LONG TERM than having UCD or Dublin in.

[WeAreRovers]

The idea that the crowd, or lack of at Dublin City - UCD is an impediment to the progress of any club in the first division (or prem) is wrong. Totally wrong.

Well if you thing that a crowd of less than 100 people at a derby game in the capital city in the country's top tier of football isn't an impediment to what people are trying to do for their clubs and the league then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

KOH

[pineapple stu]

Looks like we were just getting some intelligent debate going when higgins (who is clearly either an idiot/a WUM/both, so I'm not even going to waste time replying to his "issues") and dcfcsteve (who is just plain deluded) pipe up. Rather unfortunate timing, to be honest.


This is the cruz here PS.
What's a cruz when it's at home? Dictionary.com defines it as a "Mexican nun and poet noted for her love lyrics, courtly tributes, satires, and plays as well as theological writings on the role of women in the Roman Catholic church."


For example, currently you need 1,500 seats for a premier stadium. The new proposal from the FAI now mandates 3,000. In a couple of years it will most probably rise to 4,000 or 5,000. It may go even higher after that.
(a) You appear to have ignored the post here which says that Belfield Bowl is being designed with an option to increase seated capacity (which is less than safe capacity) to 4000-5000, so your concern is irrelevant.
(b) The new proposal mandates 3000 capacity, which you compare to 1500 seats. There's an important distinction which you are choosing to ingore as it doesn't fit your argument. The capacity criterion will not "most probably rise" in "a couple of years" to 4000 or 5000. There is no basis for such an increase. You only think there is because you're comparing seated capacity and safe capacity, which we have seen are different things. In addition, capacity can't increase quicker than it can be built, which we have already seen from various clubs' plans is longer than a couple of years. Further, there is absolutely no reason to believe that attendances at any club will necessitate such an increase in "a couple of years".


2) The rules themselves are deliberately pegged at a level that doesnt punish the likes of Dublin City and UCD - hence holding the league as a whole back.
If we have to demand a lower than desired rate of improvements to ensure that the weakest clubs don't get relegated for their infrastructure, then it is to be fully expected that the rest of the league will therefore be held-back by this decision.
This only applies because you have a bee in your bonnet about number of seats being the sole factor involved in improving the league. I can see your vision of barstoolers now - "Want to watch the Arsenal game tonight?" "No, let's head to the Brandywell instead - I hear it's got loads of seats." Improvements also cover facilities such as toilets, refreshments, a club shop, youth set-up, not going broke every other season and other items covered in licencing.


The writing appears to be on the wall - at some point or other small clubs like UCD and Dublin City will fall-foul of the ambitions of the rest of the league.
Ambitions aren't worth the paper they're written on. If we fall foul of anything, it'll be achievements. I don't see anything being achieved. If twelve clubs can achieve more than us, we'll have no complaints about being in the First Division.


If your stadium plans had any forsight whatsoever, a higher number of seats would've been included now for the inevitable increase in the minimum requirement that will eventually happen.
Oh hey - guess what? We've seen they do.


The writing is on the wall......

The writing appears to be on the wall

Or it can read what's written on the wall
You know, I wasn't convinced of your "argument" before you started repeating itself, but now I've come around to your way of thinking. :rolleyes:

[chippie0001]

Well if you thing that a crowd of less than 100 people at a derby game in the capital city in the country's top tier of football isn't an impediment to what people are trying to do for their clubs and the league then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
KOH
Since the whole arguement seems to come to crowds should Wigan be kicked out of the permiership, maybe Alaves out of La Liega, Siena out of Serie A etc. Maybe Napoli should have went straight from Seria C to A as they get 55,000 to each game. In no league anywhere do all clubs compete and offer the same. People here seem to think a new super duper league will increase crowds, have better facilities etc etc. No where in the plan have I read where the money will come for this. Football should be decided on the pitch simple as. Changing the requirements now is not fair, after all we had years to get ready for licencing and ignored that one.

Lastly anyone who believes the FAI are even capable of doing this will get everything they deserve, when we have a crap league in a few years.

[BohDiddley]

No where in the plan have I read where the money will come for this.
Apart from the prize-money.
Still, as it stands, football needs a serious GAA-like injection of public funds that reflects its importance now and into the future. Business models alone don't and won't provide the answer -- we are not rugby, with its flush audience that sponsors and advertisers want to access.
But I also agree that sub-100 crowds do nothing for the game's claims to be taken seriously.

[higgins]

Looks like we were just getting some intelligent debate going when higgins (who is clearly either an idiot/a WUM/both, so I'm not even going to waste time replying to his "issues") and dcfcsteve (who is just plain deluded) pipe up. Rather unfortunate timing, to be honest.


I like you to take back the WUM comment please!!!! :D

Look I have stated above the 1,500 seats shows yet again your serious lack of ambition. The current proposal may not be the right way to do things that will get clubs with lack of ambition out of the Premier but as long as it has the desired result Im all for it.

You or some other UCD fan said you have gradually improved your ground over the past 12 seasons :)
Did anyone else find this funny because I certainly did.

At those current rate of improvements you will have proper dressing rooms by the year 2097!

Good look to you and your plans for the Belfield Bowl but from what I can see it looks like a decent ground for the first division!!

oooooooo toilets and a shop!!
wooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooo

Even Athlone and Harps in the first Division have better plans.


Heres a good idea for you to maybe get some more people down.
Hand out free tickets at the next Agorophobia support meeting in Dublin. They would love to sit in the wide open spaces of Dalymount with the other 83 of you..

[pineapple stu]

Lastly anyone who believes the FAI are even capable of doing this will get everything they deserve, when we have a crap league in a few years.
Hear hear. The FAI taking full control of the league is a serious concern as well, and receiving less comment than it deserves because people have a bee in their bonnets that UCD's and Dublin City's attendances are somehow stopping Derry City from achieving their full potential. We're talking about an organisation headed by someone who nearly bankrupted Waterford United and who failed to notice that Shamrock Rovers were being bankrupted despite it being blatantly obvious on their licencing application. It's an organisation with an honorary life member (I think) who, 20 years on, is ultimately responsible for most of Shamrock Rovers' troubles to this day. It's an organisation with frequent rumours of clubs having excessive influence and which is now actively looking to screw over some of its members. If there were a fit and proper owner test (which I note isn't included in the new proposals), the FAI would fail. Are people happy with them controlling our league?

[higgins]

Since the whole arguement seems to come to crowds should Wigan be kicked out of the permiership, maybe Alaves out of La Liega, Siena out of Serie A etc. Maybe Napoli should have went straight from Seria C to A as they get 55,000 to each game. In no league anywhere do all clubs compete and offer the same. People here seem to think a new super duper league will increase crowds, have better facilities etc etc. No where in the plan have I read where the money will come for this. Football should be decided on the pitch simple as. Changing the requirements now is not fair, after all we had years to get ready for licencing and ignored that one.

Lastly anyone who believes the FAI are even capable of doing this will get everything they deserve, when we have a crap league in a few years.

Its not about their low crowds..

Its about their lack of interest in ever having any decent crowds and their small time short term thinking thats holding the league back. As everyone else has said the league suffers from poor crowds for every team but at least there are a good few clubs trying to do something about this.

[chippie0001]

Look I have stated above the 1,500 seats shows yet again your serious lack of ambition. The current proposal may not be the right way to do things that will get clubs with lack of ambition out of the Premier but as long as it has the desired result Im all for it.
..
So Higgins, we all know Shels are leaving Tolka, you criticise UCD's plans so what exactly are yours? Where are you going, what's the stadium plans etc? Last I heard you wanted to move to Dalier, thats dead so UCD seem to have more concrete plans than Shels.

[Mr A]

Emmett Malone raises a lot of very good points in today's Irish Times-


Sprint for top table is a concern for many

On Soccer: It may, in a strange sort of way, be a measure of how hard its authors worked over the past couple of months to achieve a broadly acceptable compromise, that just about everybody is at least slightly uneasy with the proposals aimed at dramatically overhauling the Eircom League that were launched last week, writes Emmet Malone

The objections, predictably enough, vary from club to club, but critically, there is not nearly the same sense of a divide between the have and have nots that manifested itself in the wake of "Genesis Two" last year.

With the association still insisting the new league should be in place for the start of next season, the most immediate concern amongst the clubs is who might qualify for the first sitting at the top table. It is proposed the entire assessment process is to be marked out of 1,000, with up to 200 awarded on the basis of sporting achievements this season, a further 300 for what has been achieved over the past five years and a further 500 available under such headings as infrastructure, club licensing, strategic planning and target markets/population densities/attendances.

Though there is still considerable discomfort in some quarters regarding the anticipated pace of change, there is also relief that some of the radical aspects of Genesis have been quietly dropped and that a much greater emphasis is to be placed on what clubs have achieved on the field of play.

This rethink means that proposals, seen by some as amounting to little more than a geographically based "beauty contest", are now largely off the agenda although some doubt remains as to quite how the four-man committee charged with assessing the merits of each application for membership of the "new" league will consider the issues of population and attendances. This will be of particular interest to at least a couple of the Dublin clubs who might, in any case, find life increasingly difficult if Government funding is "strategically targeted".

The sporting criteria, indeed, are about the only completely transparent part of the selection process unveiled last week but the retrospective nature of this aspect of the scheme looks to be one of the more likely sources of a legal challenge.

In the event, for instance, that a club are excluded from the top flight on the basis that they invested heavily in ground improvements so that they might conform with licensing requirements while a rival is included in the Premier Division despite a much more casual attitude to the standard of its facilities, we might find that the policies of the last five years, as well as the way they were policed, are revisited in the courts.

On the basis of what is available so far Limerick could be the big losers in this department with the current First Division leaders languishing in 18th of 22 places in the five-year record section, a performances that would earn them just 130 of the available 300 points. Shelbourne, as it happens, top the list and could apparently expect to get all 300 points while Longford Town come second, in no small part because of their recent cup performances, ahead of Cork, Bohemians and Derry respectively.

The decision to begin and end the process of reform during the current campaign also seems risky legally although, more fundamentally, it just looks unfair and, given the importance of what is being done here, just a little rushed.

It seems reasonable that clubs should have at least one year in which to reorder their priorities so as to maximise their chances of achieving top flight status. And one might also expect that the debate that will inevitably be generated by last week's document would be allowed to continue for more than just the few weeks currently envisaged.

The various reservations raised in private by clubs so far include the structure of the proposed A League and the obligation on Premier Division clubs to enter a reserve team in this new, regional tier of the league, the enforceability of the 65 per cent of turnover "salary cap", the surrender by clubs of control to the association, the speed with which capital grants will be made available and the further marginalisation of the First Division.

Most seem willing to give ground on positions that, in some cases, seemed inflexible a few short months ago and that in itself is something of a tribute to the way the association's Implementation Committee, those who wrote the document, have managed to take on board the concerns that were raised in relation to "Genesis Two" since it was published late last year. It is hard to imagine, though, that sufficient time can be given to ironing out the outstanding problems ahead of a proposed league agm at the end of next month.

The scheme's chief champion, John Delaney has, of course, been around long enough to know there is virtually no environment in which money talks quite as persuasively as it does in the national league. Levels of desperation for fresh sources of cash may vary from club to club but on the whole it seems safe to conclude that, if they were turkeys, a two thirds majority of the 22 would readily vote for Christmas as long as they felt sure that half decent cheques would be in their possession by December 24th .

Ultimately, though, it would be a great pity and perhaps a costly mistake, too, if the required majority was now to be secured with that most traditional of vote winners, the promise of more cheques. With so much at stake for the league, spending the time required to properly complete what has been started over the last few months might just prove priceless.

The full text of the FAI document is available at www.ireland.com/sports/soccer

[NY Hoop]

Hear hear. The FAI taking full control of the league is a serious concern as well, and receiving less comment than it deserves because people have a bee in their bonnets that UCD's and Dublin City's attendances are somehow stopping Derry City from achieving their full potential. We're talking about an organisation headed by someone who nearly bankrupted Waterford United and who failed to notice that Shamrock Rovers were being bankrupted despite it being blatantly obvious on their licencing application. It's an organisation with an honorary life member (I think) who, 20 years on, is ultimately responsible for most of Shamrock Rovers' troubles to this day. It's an organisation with frequent rumours of clubs having excessive influence and which is now actively looking to screw over some of its members. If there were a fit and proper owner test (which I note isn't included in the new proposals), the FAI would fail. Are people happy with them controlling our league?

AGAIN what's the alternative? We carry on as normal and hope a sugar daddy comes in?:eek:

Chippie wigan, alaves etc dont get crowds of less than a hundred. That's the point.


KOH

[pineapple stu]

AGAIN what's the alternative? We carry on as normal and hope a sugar daddy comes in?:eek:
Implement UEFA Licencing properly and competently. Let the league continue its upward curve of the past few years. Avoid dragging it through the legal wranglings which will inevitably ensue from this proposal. Avoid the negative comment and mockery which will inevitably ensue (and has to an extent, reading Emmet Malone's article). Clubs getting crowds of under 100, having to pay another club rent and clearly living way beyond their means will be dealt with accordingly under proper UEFA Licencing.

What's this going to achieve? Do you think this is the sugar daddy we should sit and hope for otherwise? I think you're letting your dislike of Dublin City cloud the fact that cherry picking next season's Premier Division will achieve nothing of substance.

[pineapple stu]

Do the maths? Z + X = 81? :confused:

It was a joke. I didn't think that needed explaining. Plus, the same word was in twice, so it's quite possible he was talking about Mexican nuns. It wouldn't exactly have made his post any less insensible.

[Mr A]

Plus, the same word was in twice, so it's quite possible he was talking about Mexican nuns.

It's about time someone said it. For far too long Mexican nuns have been holding back Irish football from fulfilling its potential. As the FAI proposals mention nothing on how to deal with what is the biggest point in Irish football history, they should be voted down.

[Schumi]

It's about time someone said it. For far too long Mexican nuns have been holding back Irish football from fulfilling its potential. As the FAI proposals mention nothing on how to deal with what is the biggest point in Irish football history, they should be voted down.
Nonsense. What's the alternative to Mexican nuns? Carrying on nunless like we are now?? Attendances of less than 100 nuns are a disgrace and it's about time that clubs with small numbers of nuns were put out of business.

[hoops1]

Anyone who thinks UCD and DC should be let into any national
league is deluded
They bring ZERO to the league.

[WeAreRovers]

Since the whole arguement seems to come to crowds should Wigan be kicked out of the permiership, maybe Alaves out of La Liega, Siena out of Serie A etc.

Wigan are in a one team town and their crowds are nowhere near being an embarrassment and Napoli were relegated for the same reasons as us basically. All very different from having clubs that bring absolutely nothing to the league in the top division (not talking about UCD!)

Fully agree with the rest of your post BTW. Especially the bit about licencing, if we'd enforced licencing in the first place none of this would be happening. This is just another FAI branded bad aid.

KOH

[NY Hoop]

Implement UEFA Licencing properly and competently. Let the league continue its upward curve of the past few years. Avoid dragging it through the legal wranglings which will inevitably ensue from this proposal. Avoid the negative comment and mockery which will inevitably ensue (and has to an extent, reading Emmet Malone's article). Clubs getting crowds of under 100, having to pay another club rent and clearly living way beyond their means will be dealt with accordingly under proper UEFA Licencing.

What's this going to achieve? Do you think this is the sugar daddy we should sit and hope for otherwise? I think you're letting your dislike of Dublin City cloud the fact that cherry picking next season's Premier Division will achieve nothing of substance.

Legal wranglings are not an inevitability but I concede the threat of them could be.

I disagree though this document could be the breath of fresh air the league needs. I cant see clubs voting against the increased prize money. They are meeting the clubs and you can bet there will be some bargaining going on. Negative comment and mockery is an Irish trait. Munster won the European Cup and there's people slagging off their fans ffs..........

Its not personal against CHF its just that they shouldnt be in the league.


KOH

[wws]

they shouldn't be - but they are

and this isnt a clever way to deal with the problem if you want to build something sustainable going forward but their success in getting prem division status would lead most intelligent people to question the merits of leapfrogging those who havent achieved that over them

the fundamental flaws arent even addressed by this situation

[Mr A]

Nonsense. What's the alternative to Mexican nuns? Carrying on nunless like we are now?? Attendances of less than 100 nuns are a disgrace and it's about time that clubs with small numbers of nuns were put out of business.

It is quite clear that the future of the eircom league lies with Puerto Rican nuns. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

[Bald Student]

If a team is not not keeping up with everyone else then it is clear that only one of 2 things can happen :

1) The rules punish you for this
Your percieved saviour of licensing will do this to you sooner or later through off-the-pitch criteria such as the number of seats in your stadium.

2) The rules themselves are deliberately pegged at a level that doesnt punish the likes of Dublin City and UCD - hence holding the league as a whole back.
If we have to demand a lower than desired rate of improvements to ensure that the weakest clubs don't get relegated for their infrastructure, then it is to be fully expected that the rest of the league will therefore be held-back by this decision.This, I think, is the kernal of our disagreement Steve. You're trying to anticipate who will fail licensing five or ten years down the line and you think they should be relegated now to save the trouble of a relegation in the future. I don't agree with you for a few reasons. I don't agree that trying to guess into the future who'll achieve what is particularly accurate, for example I don't agree that UCD will likely fall fowl of the minimum seats requirement. There are a couple of clubs which would be cought out by this before UCD. Also, I don't agree that the current proposlas will achieve what you describe. The proposals will set promotion and relegation into a binding contract so this is only a short term punishment for whatever clubs get demoted, it's not a long term solution to anything.

[Dodge]

they shouldn't be - but they are

and this isnt a clever way to deal with the problem if you want to build something sustainable going forward but their success in getting prem division status would lead most intelligent people to question the merits of leapfrogging those who havent achieved that over them

the fundamental flaws arent even addressed by this situation
It should also be noted that UCD haven't been in any financial trouble despite their poor attendances. IMagine what they'd do if they start getting 1,000s to their games. Now that's p[otential...

[Poor Student]

For life ? NO
For years yes ..

Word of mouth is a big factor in Ireland. It can make or break this idea.
If you were faced with a crowd of 83 at your first EL game what would you think ?

You yet again fail to see how it look on the outside to the non EL fan.

Ive brought many to Tolka with crowds over a 1000 and still got the 'there's not many here' remarks.
If you don’t think crowds at games make it a better occasion its not surprising you’re a UCD fan.

As for the above comment that 1,500 is enough for your needs ???
Do you not think the fact the current ground in Belfield is a complete and utter sh!thole that it may have some reason why your crowds are so low?
Do you not think with a better ground you may aim for over 1,500 seats?

I think the minimum requirement of 1,500 seats is far too low. Anyone who comes to an EL premier league game in the year 2006 should at the very least expect to sit down and watch the game in some sort of comfort.

You honestly telling us 1,500 is all you need in this new ground?

Even if your average is well under 1,500 you may very well get a crowd of 2,000 at some stage and to have 500 forced to stand it only serves to back up the opinion that the grounds in the EL are rubbish.

You lot don’t seem to have any ambition.
Calling it pragmatism is foolish.

Your holding the league back

Ideally I would like the FAI to implement the Club Licence in full and rid the premier of clubs like UCD by requirement issues but I'm happy to go along with the round about way it has the same happy ending.

You don't seem to have any sense of reality, Higgins. You do not build a stadium bigger than required or much bigger than projected attendances. You don't say "Hmmm, maybe one game we'll get 25% more than planned capacity". That's a waste of money in both construction and maintainence. You keep insisting we have no ambition. We know our resources and we plan our ambitions accordingly. For a club who has no ambitions we have managed to spend 11 of the last 12 years in the top flight and didn't take our last relegation lying down. Ambition is worth nothing unless tempered with realism, something you appear to possess little of.

[Ronnie]

Seen as the whole ucd/dc one was raised and Shmarock Rovers and the300 to Castlebar was raised, one can do the pros and cons. 1. UCD/DC bring 10 fans to an away game = €100 for home club. Extra Sercurity 0 , loss in home fans 0.
Shamrock Rovers bring 300 fans = €3000 less extra security 1000, extra guards 1000 plus less home fans 1000.

This complex equation therefore proves that Shamrock Rovers are just as much use to my club as UCD or Dublin City!

[Ronnie]

Oh don't be so pedantic.

[WeAreRovers]

Seen as the whole ucd/dc one was raised and Shmarock Rovers and the300 to Castlebar was raised, one can do the pros and cons. 1. UCD/DC bring 10 fans to an away game = €100 for home club. Extra Sercurity 0 , loss in home fans 0.
Shamrock Rovers bring 300 fans = €3000 less extra security 1000, extra guards 1000 plus less home fans 1000.

This complex equation therefore proves that Shamrock Rovers are just as much use to my club as UCD or Dublin City!

The above post and this piece of drivel from the Connacht Telegraph show why this league will never get out of the parochial little hole that it's in -

KOH

http://www.connaughttelegraph.net/

"Rovers may be at a low ebb following their relegation last season from the top flight from the national game, but their form since the start of the new campaign on march 10th last suggest the Dublin club is far from down in the dumps with six wins in ten outings.

The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".

Consequently, Celtic's big match preparations have been overshadowed by concerns over security arrangements and ground improvements rather than how player-manager Gavin Dykes is planning to use his experience to try and pull off one of the biggest shocks in the history of the competition."

[Ronnie]

My apologies, I shall spell out my comments fully in future, and refrain from unnessessary frivolity!

[Ash]

The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan
and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small
sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".



From what I could see the hassle at the Athlone game was down to a
gang of locals who we're full to the gills from about 3 or 4pm that day.

[Patronizer]

'Premiership'... WTF are FAI playin bout at? They wanna make Bertie proud into the equation? It's not soccer for the good of the Irish the way it's lookin & anyone knows that. Sure, they've a few positives wedged in places in the field of change etc. but as usual they have to unessisarily mess around with some unbroken parts & climb an upside-down mountain... :mad:

Come on Delaney.. think of somethin even a bit different. I'll even be nice... (in addition to wws's quote postin of a certain beverage on page 11).. how bout we go for...

'JD & Coke' Championship... :rolleyes:

'Green Champs League' lads waaaaayyyyyyyyy! :p

[Jerry The Saint]

'Premiership'... WTF are FAI playin bout at? They wanna make Bertie proud into the equation? It's not soccer for the good of the Irish the way it's lookin & anyone knows that. Sure, they've a few positives wedged in places in the field of change etc. but as usual they have to unessisarily mess around with some unbroken parts & climb an upside-down mountain... :mad:

Come on Delaney.. think of somethin even a bit different. I'll even be nice... (in addition to wws's quote postin of a certain beverage on page 11).. how bout we go for...

'JD & Coke' Championship...

'Green Champs League' lads waaaaayyyyyyyyy!

This tournament that's coming up in Germany seems to be generating a lot of interest. Is it too late for the FAI to change the name to the eircom World Cup:confused: We could then claim that Cork are the current World Champions, like the Americans do.

[Patronizer]

This tournament that's coming up in Germany seems to be generating a lot of interest. Is it too late for the FAI to change the name to the eircom World Cup:confused: We could then claim that Cork are the current World Champions, like the Americans do.

Think they should market Europe 1st... they have trouble persuadin
their own around em never mind the world... ;)

[CollegeTillIDie]

I still think the new name for the proposed league should be Serie Á :D

[Battery Rover]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan
and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small
sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".



From what I could see the hassle at the Athlone game was down to a
gang of locals who we're full to the gills from about 3 or 4pm that day.


I agree with Ash. Locals full of beer. Have great time for the Rovers supporters

[TonyD]

I think I'm with the UCD fans on this. So themselves and Dublin City have little or no support, well then it should be easier for the bigger clubs to overtake them shouldn't it ? They shouldn't be penalised for having the temerity to actually win football matches. I also don't particularly see what Dublin City particularly, (UCD have a good record of developing players to be fair) bring to the league, but I'm mystified by this notion of them holding the rest back. How exactly are they stopping Cork, Shels, Derry, Pats, Bohs, etc from drawing massive crowds, building wonder stadia and contemplating world domination ? You want to throw them out because they attract, an admittedly embarrassing crowd, of something like 83 to a Premier Division game ? Fine, lets boot them out, and replace them with.....who exactly ? Who thinks there are legions of clubs around the country just queing to take their place ? Just relegate them then you say ? Well what are you going to do when they have the cheek to get promoted again ?

Bottom line is that football is about what happens on the pitch. Any system that attempts to mess with that is asking for trouble. Foreign examples aren't really relevant in leagues where most of the clubs are at a certain standard, facilities wise, and one or two lag behind. The point is, NO club in this league is that far ahead of the rest. There is a gap, sure, between the top and bottom, but it's hardly a yawning chasm. I share DCFCSteves vision of where he wants the league to be in five years. If we do reach that point and UCD and Dublin City can't keep up, then natural selection will take care of them. If, however we want to now boot any clubs out of the premier league(Premership my Arse) who don't have 5,000 seats, 3,000 fans and whatever other criteria the Fuhrer Delaney has up his sleeve then we could end up with a top division of about five clubs. Wake up call everyone. The bigger clubs need other teams to play you know. Shels v Cork or Derry v Drogheda ten times a season is not really going to work is it?

[harpskid]

The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras"

Email away in response to that. No marring of a Rovers trip to Ballybofey this term :mad:

[Réiteoir]

FAI forced into change of criteria to join elite
THE FAI have already been forced to change some of the criteria that will decide who plays in the Eircom League Premiership next season.

Three hundred points were on offer for results over the past five seasons in the League, Cups and Europe but the FAI have had to reduce that to four seasons after they discovered that Kildare County were not members of the League in 2001/02.

Rankings and points distribution for the four seasons from 2002/03 - 1 Shelbourne (300), 2 Longford Town (290), 3 Cork City (280), 4 Bohemians (270), 5 Derry City (260), 6 Drogheda United (250), 7 St Patrick's Athletic (240), 8 Shamrock Rovers (230), 9 Waterford United (220), 10 UCD (210), 11 Bray Wanderers (200), 12 Finn Harps (190), 13 Dublin City (180), 14 Sligo Rovers (170), 15 Galway United (160), 16 Kildare County (150), 17 Cobh Ramblers (140), 18 Limerick (130), 19 Dundalk (120), 20 Kilkenny City (110), 21 Monaghan United (100), 22 Athlone Town (90).

[pineapple stu]

I make it...



Longford Town 115.0 1 300
Cork City 112.0 2 290
Bohemians 108.0 3 280
Shelbourne 104.0 4 270
Derry City 103.0 5 260
Drogheda United 91.0 6 250
St Patrick's Athletic 90.0 7 240
Shamrock Rovers 82.0 8 230
Waterford United 81.0 9 220
UCD 74.0 10 210
Bray Wanderers 65.0 11 200
Finn Harps 57.0 12 190
Dublin City 49.0 13 180
Sligo Rovers 44.0 14 170
Galway United 42.0 15 160
Kildare County 40.0 16 150
Cobh Ramblers 36.0 17 140
Limerick FC 28.0 18 130
Dundalk 27.0 19 120
Kilkenny City 23.0 20 110
Athlone Town 20.0 21 100
Monaghan United 19.0 22 90


Rather interesting that Shels suddenly jump to the top of the pile! Only other change is Monaghan and Athlone at the bottom. Someone was saying here that Shels' Euro points were way in excess of what they should be.

[higgins]

So Higgins, we all know Shels are leaving Tolka, you criticise UCD's plans so what exactly are yours? Where are you going, what's the stadium plans etc? Last I heard you wanted to move to Dalier, thats dead so UCD seem to have more concrete plans than Shels.

Shels play in TOLKA PARK !!
Until you hear otherwise give over the speculation.
If or when we move I will be happy to discuss our stadium situation.

At present we have one of the best EL grounds in the country (sadly :eek: )

[Ronnie]

Stu how did you get those points totals?

[higgins]

You don't seem to have any sense of reality, Higgins. You do not build a stadium bigger than required or much bigger than projected attendances. You don't say "Hmmm, maybe one game we'll get 25% more than planned capacity". That's a waste of money in both construction and maintainence. You keep insisting we have no ambition. We know our resources and we plan our ambitions accordingly. For a club who has no ambitions we have managed to spend 11 of the last 12 years in the top flight and didn't take our last relegation lying down. Ambition is worth nothing unless tempered with realism, something you appear to possess little of.

Well why is everybody saying the stadium Bohs are building is a great idea??

surely they should be looking at something with 3000 seats considering that would so for 90% of their games...

[Roverstillidie]

Shels play in TOLKA PARK !!
Until you hear otherwise give over the speculation.
If or when we move I will be happy to discuss our stadium situation.

At present we have one of the best EL grounds in the country (sadly :eek: )

you dont have anything higgins.

answer this bit of 'speculation': have mulden properties moved to get you to leave tolka recently?

how much did you punt the lease for?

when is d-day?

and i wouldnt poke fun at the bozos crowd. i have been at derbies with 14,000 and 8,000 isnt that rare. whats your biggest home league gate of the last 5 years? 5,000?

[John83]

...the FAI have had to reduce that to four seasons after they discovered that Kildare County were not members of the League in 2001/02.
Quality. I look forward to seeing them running the league even more now.

[pineapple stu]

Stu how did you get those points totals?
You can lash it together on Excel. Just need the previous results - can get them from rsssf.com

[higgins]

you dont have anything higgins.

answer this bit of 'speculation': have mulden properties moved to get you to leave tolka recently?

how much did you punt the lease for?

when is d-day?

and i wouldnt poke fun at the bozos crowd. i have been at derbies with 14,000 and 8,000 isnt that rare. whats your biggest home league gate of the last 5 years? 5,000?

You nevermind when this D-day is your talking about. Sure you are renting the very same ground....

Shels have wanted to move out of Tolka for a few years now. Its common knowledge.
When we do move out it will be to another ground and I am certain it will be better than the Belfield Bowl.

If Shels did move to a stadium with 1,500 seats and safety for another 1,500 and call it pragmatism what would you all think?

[wws]

Shels have wanted to move out of Tolka for a few years now. Its common knowledge.

eh

i think they have no fcking choice in the matter given that they have bankrolled their participation in the el to date largely on the back of selling the leases to developers

time up.......and these are better run than ucd or dublin city?!?!


the mind boggles

[WeAreRovers]

If or when we move I will be happy to discuss our stadium situation.


Which will be miles too late. How come fans of other clubs know exactly who Ollie has sold out to and exactly who bailed him out with the Revenue yet you lot don't seem bothered by the implications? I'm baffled TBH.

KOH

[Mr A]

FAI forced into change of criteria to join elite THE FAI have already been forced to change some of the criteria that will decide who plays in the Eircom League Premiership next season.

Three hundred points were on offer for results over the past five seasons in the League, Cups and Europe but the FAI have had to reduce that to four seasons after they discovered that Kildare County were not members of the League in 2001/02.

Rankings and points distribution for the four seasons from 2002/03 - 1 Shelbourne (300), 2 Longford Town (290), 3 Cork City (280), 4 Bohemians (270), 5 Derry City (260), 6 Drogheda United (250), 7 St Patrick's Athletic (240), 8 Shamrock Rovers (230), 9 Waterford United (220), 10 UCD (210), 11 Bray Wanderers (200), 12 Finn Harps (190), 13 Dublin City (180), 14 Sligo Rovers (170), 15 Galway United (160), 16 Kildare County (150), 17 Cobh Ramblers (140), 18 Limerick (130), 19 Dundalk (120), 20 Kilkenny City (110), 21 Monaghan United (100), 22 Athlone Town (90).

This comes from today's Independent. It shows that the FAI didn't put a hell of a lot of thought into the system given that they missed the Kildare issue. While like most here I feel that there is much that is good in the proposals, there's no denying that it's still pretty half-assed. Still the clubs will be railroaded into it and the wheels will probably come off down the line a bit.

[Réiteoir]

Rather interesting that Shels suddenly jump to the top of the pile!

yeah - strange that...