FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[EnDai]

Half a million prize money, is that between all the clubs or just the winners? It'd be great if it was just for the winners (even if they do end up being Cork!), obviously with lesser amounts to the others.

[Danny]

Indo Article

The FAI have dangled an E800,000 carrot in front of the 22 eircom League clubs to entice them into a merger with the association.

From 2007 the top flight will be known as the Premiership and the winners will receive a massive E225,000 in prizemoney. Shelbourne received a paltry E18,000 for winning the 2004 league while Cork City won E100,000 last season.

The prize fund for the Premiership is to jump from E233,500 in 2006 to E450,000 next season with the First Division pot rising from E81,000 to E100,000, half of which will go directly to the winners.

Prize money will account for E633,000 when the League Cup and Fair Play awards are counted and the association are also promising E10,000 to each of the 12 Premiership clubs for a promotion officer to help raise the each club's profile in their catchment area.

The FAI intend to reduce the Premiership from 12 to ten teams for 2009 by relegating the bottom three clubs at the end of the 2008 season.

Even though there is no promotion or relegation this season the 12 teams currently in the Premier Division are not guaranteed a top-flight place next season.

They will have to go through a complicated criteria process to determine who will make the cut and this will be overseen by an Independent Assessment Group (IAG) chaired by former UEFA vice-president Des Casey.

The IAG also include former Irish Sports Council chairman Pat O'Neill, Dublin City manager John Fitzgerald, former international Niall Quinn and FAI Project Manager Helen Raftery.

The criteria which the IAG will use to determine the 12 clubs to play in the Premier Division next season is based on a system of 1,000 points with 50 per cent being awarded for sporting criteria (the club's performance over the last five seasons) and the other half for non-sporting criteria.

At the end of 2007 the bottom team in the newly created Premiership will be relegated and replaced by the Division One winners who will also play off against the League Cup winners for a Setanta Cup place.

The second and third placed teams in Division One will play off with the 11th placed. The teams which finish in the bottom three places in the Premiership will receive no prize-money.

By 2009 the FAI also envisage an A Championship operating on a regional basis, which will contain reserve teams plus non-league sides and from which promotion to the First Division would be possible.

From 2007 clubs must sign participation agreement and will operate a cap on players' wages and costs which will be 65 per cent of turnover. Clubs are due to vote on the merger in July and the FAI have planned a series of information meetings with them over the coming weeks.

[pineapple stu]

Firstly - the FAI and the EL are in-effect a federation of different elements within Irish football.
Ah, they're not really. They are in name, but nothing else.


So, you're suggesting that if even a small minority (one third) of the members of that federation disagree with any particular policy suggested by any particular leader, he should be made to walk??
One-third is more than a small minority. I agree it's probably a bit radical for him to go because of one vote. But then he's overseen UEFA Licencing to be the mess that it is, he's tried to screw eL fans out of international tickets, he arguably shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place, he's pressing on with this on the back of a very shaky Genesis Report which he didn't even bother to question, it appears, and various other dodgy things he's done since coming to office. This is more like the straw which breaks the camel's back really. It's the first time clubs have actually voted on his vision for the league too. Wait until you see the criteria too - not the work of someone I'd want anywhere near Irish football. Elitist bullsh!t of the highest order.


And how exactly is Delaney actively trying to favour some clubs over others? He may well be actively favouring criteria that he believes are for the future benefit of the game in Ireland
Ah now, that's naive. If he believes these actions are for the best in the Irish game, he's an idiot and should go. If he's at least in part being influenced by officials at certain clubs (as is my understanding from having asked around), he's corrupt and should go. There is no rational argument for this.


Finally - how is he directly flouting FIFA Fair Play statutes?
UEFA statutes, not FIFA. I linked them in here before - do a search. Also what Bald Student said.


What current proposal ??? Nothing has been announced yet.
Danny's post aside, read the thread. This was all posted to clubs yesterday.

[Ronnie]

Bit wary of this alright.

The wages cap is a good idea but it must have a watertight system for implementation. Don't get caught up in what an individual player gets, its the overall budget for wages thats the relevant point. Now getting clubs, league, Revenue and PFAI to agree will be difficult.

[dcfcsteve]

From a personal viewpoint, I'm broadly in-agreement with this proposal. I have issues with certain elements of it, but not the broad idea.

As with any dramatic change, I acknowledge that there will be both winners and losers. But the guiding criteria I use in this is as follows.

Imagine how we'd like the Eircom league to be 5 or 10 years down the line.

I'm thinking of a league that is truely sustainable and that 'work's. Not one that lurches from crisis to crisis due to poor leadership and the constant presence of badly-run clubs, or clubs who's long-term viability is extremely limited. Not oe that in no way reflects the spread of populatuion around the country.

I'm thinking of a league that contains financially stable Premier clubs, attracting regular crowds of an average 4-5,000 to watch them in modern 6-10,000 all-seater stadiums.

I'm thinking of a First Division that is no longer a wilderness - one where all teams are also financially stable, attracting crowds of average 2,000 in 5,000+ all-seater stadiums. One where there are much stronger incentives - to progress northwards into the Premiership, and to not progress southwards back to the intermediate game.

A domestic game where the prize money on offer is of a level that sends out a message about how serious Irsh domestic football is being viewed.

A game where part-funding is being provided to employ a member of staff at every club to go out and build strong links with their communities.

Now - ask yourself, is that the kind of league you'd like to see in 5 or 10 years time ? If it is - my next question is not the predictable 'this proposal will deliver that' one. Instead, it is this. If the above league existed, could you really see a place in it for ALL 22 clubs that are currently within EL football ? To risk making myself unpopular amongst fans of certain clubs - would there be room in the league I've described above for a Premier match that attracts less than 100 supporters ? If not - can you realistically see all 22 clubs currently within the league making the required leap over the next 5-10 years to become viable clubs with a much larger average fan-base and a secure financial future ?

If you can put your hand on your heart and say that, under the type of stable and well supported league we would all like to see, there is genuinely room for all 22 current clubs then fine. But I personally cannot see how certain clubs can progress at the pace required off-the-pitch to survive under such a league. And if they wouldn't survive in the type of league that we want and we hope we are moving towards, then in all honesty what is the point in them staying in senior football at all ? A league will only be as strong as its weakest teams - and those teams will hold it back if a significant gulf in fan-base and financial viability opens up between them and everyone else.

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop. :ball:

[pól-dcfc]

Even though it's my gut reaction to disagree with any thing that comes out of Delaney's mouth, I like some of these proposals.

Better prize money is a plus, and I think the Setanta Cup playoff match between the League Cup winners and Div 1 winners is a great idea. The A league goes a way to get some sort of feasible pyramid system going, although still leaving the promotion thing wide open in regards to winter - summer football. Wage cap must be a good thing, but is 65% sufficient? I'd love to know everyones wages at the minute.

[John83]

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop. :ball:
The disagreements seem to arise from that fact that tenable, but small clubs look to be in for the chop. I don't want to bring UCD into this again, but it's the example I'm most familiar with.

A club with no debt, a decent infrastructure (training faculities, youth setup) and respectable league and cup results may well be screwed over by the fact that we have a small fanbase (and therefore no reason for a big stadium). I don't see how you can justify that in terms of advancing the league.

Of course, it's much easier not to look at it that way if you're in no danger yourself. :(

[pineapple stu]

Always glad to oblige, Steve! Though I'll leave my UCD hat off for once.

The problem with the vision you have is that you talk about it as if it's completely achievable. Is it? I don't konw if it is; certainly not within the time-frame you're talking about. I don't think that's a failing of the league in particular - it's just reality. You currently have two or three clubs who can averag over 2000 a game. Nothing in this proposal indicates how we're suddenly going to have ten clubs averaging 5000 a game. No-one I've talked to - even those who share your optimistic vision - can indicate how this proposal will bring about the changes dreamt of.

The notion of a First Division that's not a wilderness is nice as well. This proposal, however, will kill the First Division. You're talking about comparing the bottom Premier team with the top First Division team and letting the one which scores highest into the Premier (again, this is just going on what I've heard). The Premier Division team will obviously score higher (by definition) and so will stay up. That's no grounds for promoting the First Division in general.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile clubs being for the chop with a vibrant First Division also. If you think clubs such as UCD, Dublin City, Kilkenny, Monaghan, etc are for the chop, you're looking at bringing in 2 or 4 new clubs into the First Division, whom you would expect to get 2000 a game within five years. It's five years since Kildare County came into the league. Prior to that you had the influx of '85 - Derry, Bray, Monaghan, EMFA, Newcastlewest and Cobh. Only Derry of those are getting 2000 a game 20 years on, and arguably wouldn't get it in the First Division these days. So on the one hand, you indicate that certain teams are unsustainable, and on the other hand have a vision of these teams - or teams currently lower than them - getting 2000 within five years.

It's all very well talking starry-eyed about 6000 crowds being a regular event, but you - and everyone else - make no attempt to indicate how this proposal is going to achieve that. My vision instead is of the league being dragged further into the mire by law-suits and legal challenges and becoming even more a thing of public mockery by barstoolers.

I'd obviously love to achieve your vision. But I don't see how this can possibly do it. It's pure pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally, it's interesting that the ground criterion has suddenly upped and moved. UEFA Licencing required 1500 covered seats and nothing else, capacity-wise. Now suddenly 3000 safe capacity is required. (Just flicked back and that wasn't mentioned. It's on the proposal anyway). UCD (apologies, but again it's the example I'm familiar with) have definite plans for a 1500-seater ground on the basis of UEFA Licencing. Now we've to ensure we can fit another 1500 people into it, preferably by July.

[dcfcsteve]

A club with no debt, a decent infrastructure (training faculities, youth setup) and respectable league and cup results may well be screwed over by the fact that we have a small fanbase (and therefore no reason for a big stadium). I don't see how you can justify that in terms of advancing the league.

The above could also be a description of a club with no future. It's easy to be a tenable club in a sh!t league. It's much harder to be a viable club under a more progressive and stronger league that we all hope we're moving towards. And if you're not able to plug that gap, you risk holding everyone else back. Why should the vast majorioty of clubs in Irish domestic football be held back by the limited future of a tiny number of clubs ?


Of course, it's much easier not to look at it that way if you're in no danger yourself. :(

True. Likewise, it's difficult to look at it in a positive way if you feel your club will be one of the victims. Regardless - even if I was opposed to uit because my own club was in danger of being one of the victims of it, I'd still like toi think that I'd openly acknowledge whetehr or not I objectively thought it was a good idea overall for our league.

[John83]

The above could also be a description of a club with no future.
Is a club with attendances of over 1000 (and there aren't that many around), substantial debts and mediocre infrastructure really so much better than one with 600 and the above? Are they really going to vastly advance the league? I don't think so.


Why should the vast majorioty of clubs in Irish domestic football be held back by the limited future of a tiny number of clubs ?
The vast majority are being held back by the likes of UCD? I'm not following your logic here.

[dcfcsteve]

Is a club with attendances of over 1000 (and there aren't that many around), substantial debts and mediocre infrastructure really so much better than one with 600 and the above? Are they really going to vastly advance the league? I don't think so.

I agree with you. I don't think there's a place for eitehr in our league. The badly run clubs therefore need to sort their act out or get out.


The vast majority are being held back by the likes of UCD? I'm not following your logic here.

Where did I say this ? I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back. You're the one fitting UCD into that mould, not me. If UCD kept pace with all the other clubs in-terms of stadium and fan-base, they wouldn't be an example of this.

[thomas]

from todays sun

All clubs recieved the proposals yesterday
12 Team league in 2007
10 Team in 2008

Reserve 'A' League
U21 Winter League

League cup Winners v 1st Division winners for a place in Setanta Cup

Prize Fund up from 230k to 450k a year.

League Structure based on following criteria

50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location


A lot of sense in it, but calling it the premiership is plain idiotic.
Some people seem to misunderstand the wage cap. It means 65% of incme can be spent on player wages. It doesn't mean there is a limit per player. The 65% is pretty realistic for any club as costs on a turnover less that EUR3.0m would be close to that, if turnoer goes past that there are ways around it, ie spending EUR10.0m prize money from the CL (if that ever hapens) could go 65% on wages, 35% on signing &transfer fees etc. without affecting the existing structure at a club.


The 50% on performance seems wierd, straightforward coeffiecients a la UEFA could be used, but it would need a 3 tier system of points applied to an already split system... complicated or what...

Basing it up to last season.. Rovers would have 11.67 points for the last season and 60.67 for the preceding 4, an average of 15.16. then multiplied by 20%* and 30%* respectively = 2.334 and 3.032.
Compared to cork city: 68.97 / 4 = 17.16 points for 2002-2005 and 24.67 last season = 4.933 and 5.148 points...

So in the league rovers have 5.366 and cork 10.081 etc... then try to work out the euro games and the 1st division and work out what eighting to give those results... on top of that... then try to work out how to equate these quantities to this ******ology:

10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

FAI.....

[pineapple stu]

Where did I say this ? I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back. You're the one fitting UCD into that mould, not me. If UCD kept pace with all the other clubs in-terms of stadium and fan-base, they wouldn't be an example of this.
You clearly said it in reference to John83's description of UCD.

[Magicme]

From a personal viewpoint, I'm broadly in-agreement with this proposal. I have issues with certain elements of it, but not the broad idea.

As with any dramatic change, I acknowledge that there will be both winners and losers. But the guiding criteria I use in this is as follows.

Imagine how we'd like the Eircom league to be 5 or 10 years down the line.

I'm thinking of a league that is truely sustainable and that 'work's. Not one that lurches from crisis to crisis due to poor leadership and the constant presence of badly-run clubs, or clubs who's long-term viability is extremely limited. Not oe that in no way reflects the spread of populatuion around the country.

I'm thinking of a league that contains financially stable Premier clubs, attracting regular crowds of an average 4-5,000 to watch them in modern 6-10,000 all-seater stadiums.

I'm thinking of a First Division that is no longer a wilderness - one where all teams are also financially stable, attracting crowds of average 2,000 in 5,000+ all-seater stadiums. One where there are much stronger incentives - to progress northwards into the Premiership, and to not progress southwards back to the intermediate game.

A domestic game where the prize money on offer is of a level that sends out a message about how serious Irsh domestic football is being viewed.

A game where part-funding is being provided to employ a member of staff at every club to go out and build strong links with their communities.

Now - ask yourself, is that the kind of league you'd like to see in 5 or 10 years time ? If it is - my next question is not the predictable 'this proposal will deliver that' one. Instead, it is this. If the above league existed, could you really see a place in it for ALL 22 clubs that are currently within EL football ? To risk making myself unpopular amongst fans of certain clubs - would there be room in the league I've described above for a Premier match that attracts less than 100 supporters ? If not - can you realistically see all 22 clubs currently within the league making the required leap over the next 5-10 years to become viable clubs with a much larger average fan-base and a secure financial future ?

If you can put your hand on your heart and say that, under the type of stable and well supported league we would all like to see, there is genuinely room for all 22 current clubs then fine. But I personally cannot see how certain clubs can progress at the pace required off-the-pitch to survive under such a league. And if they wouldn't survive in the type of league that we want and we hope we are moving towards, then in all honesty what is the point in them staying in senior football at all ? A league will only be as strong as its weakest teams - and those teams will hold it back if a significant gulf in fan-base and financial viability opens up between them and everyone else.

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop. :ball:

You made me cry.

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally Steve, do you want to reply to my comments that the new proposal offers to actual path between now and this brave new world?

[sullanefc]

from todays sun

All clubs recieved the proposals yesterday
12 Team league in 2007
10 Team in 2008

I don't like the way they keep changing it. Hopefully they will settle on one.



Reserve 'A' League
U21 Winter League

Seems like a good idea to vet other teams that may want to joint the league



League cup Winners v 1st Division winners for a place in Setanta Cup

Great carrot for the first division and may give it some better exposure.



Prize Fund up from 230k to 450k a year.

Excellent



League Structure based on following criteria

50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location
The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD and Dublin City type untenable teams will be worried about. Only 25%?

Infrastructure is pretty vague.

[sullanefc]

BTW would it be possible to have a poll on what people thought the 12 chosen clubs will be. One vote per person and each person picks 12 teams. Possibly in another thread.

[John83]

I agree with you. I don't think there's a place for eitehr in our league. The badly run clubs therefore need to sort their act out or get out.
Okay. So we want clubs with no financial problems, excellent facuilities and large attendances. This much, we all agree on. The problem is that we don't have any of those, and I disagree that the proposals will make any.


I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back.
You know what? We don't have a much stronger league with bigger attendances. And I don't see how the proposals are going to get us one. Objectively limited potential? Every club in the league has the potential to draw crowds of many times what the biggest clubs get now. But their current crowds are being used as a yardstick.

Meanwhile, finances aren't being brought into this at all. *cough*Shels*cough*.

I'm looking at the current criteria, and I'm not seeing "objectively limited potential" as a criterion. I'm seeing a fudge that will weaken the league behind the biggest clubs and give them more money.

This proposal will hurt every club in the league that isn't Bohs, Cork, Derry or Drogheda.

[Ronnie]

Is there a requirement to pass everything - like could a club have a brillliant result in 4 categories and rubbish in 1 and be out of the loop?

[sullanefc]

You know what? We don't have a much stronger league with bigger attendances. And I don't see how the proposals are going to get us one. Objectively limited potential? Every club in the league has the potential to draw crowds of many times what the biggest clubs get now. But their current crowds are being used as a yardstick.

Meanwhile, finances aren't being brought into this at all. *cough*Shels*cough*.

I'm looking at the current criteria, and I'm not seeing "objectively limited potential" as a criterion. I'm seeing a fudge that will weaken the league behind the biggest clubs and give them more money.

This proposal will hurt every club in the league that isn't Bohs, Cork, Derry or Drogheda.

DOOM DOOM DOOM. Good god man, at least we could give it a go. The league is going no where at present. These things have to be tried out.

[John83]

League Structure based on following criteria
50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD and Dublin City type untenable teams will be worried about. Only 25%?

Infrastructure is pretty vague.
Actually, there's more detail than this in the proposal, so infrastructure isn't going to be vague. It just looks that way now.

I'm sick of this "untenable" crap. More clubs from Cork have gone bust than UCD have had managers, but still we're "untenable", smack in the middle of an uncontested (by football) catchment area with a population bigger than Drogheda and Derry stuck together.

As for future plans, the league keeps changing the bar. As Pineapple stu already said, UEFA licencing requires 1500 seats. Now this proposal seems to be looking for 3000. How the hell do you plan for that?

[NY Hoop]

From a personal viewpoint, I'm broadly in-agreement with this proposal. I have issues with certain elements of it, but not the broad idea.

As with any dramatic change, I acknowledge that there will be both winners and losers. But the guiding criteria I use in this is as follows.

Imagine how we'd like the Eircom league to be 5 or 10 years down the line.

I'm thinking of a league that is truely sustainable and that 'work's. Not one that lurches from crisis to crisis due to poor leadership and the constant presence of badly-run clubs, or clubs who's long-term viability is extremely limited. Not oe that in no way reflects the spread of populatuion around the country.

I'm thinking of a league that contains financially stable Premier clubs, attracting regular crowds of an average 4-5,000 to watch them in modern 6-10,000 all-seater stadiums.

I'm thinking of a First Division that is no longer a wilderness - one where all teams are also financially stable, attracting crowds of average 2,000 in 5,000+ all-seater stadiums. One where there are much stronger incentives - to progress northwards into the Premiership, and to not progress southwards back to the intermediate game.

A domestic game where the prize money on offer is of a level that sends out a message about how serious Irsh domestic football is being viewed.

A game where part-funding is being provided to employ a member of staff at every club to go out and build strong links with their communities.

Now - ask yourself, is that the kind of league you'd like to see in 5 or 10 years time ? If it is - my next question is not the predictable 'this proposal will deliver that' one. Instead, it is this. If the above league existed, could you really see a place in it for ALL 22 clubs that are currently within EL football ? To risk making myself unpopular amongst fans of certain clubs - would there be room in the league I've described above for a Premier match that attracts less than 100 supporters ? If not - can you realistically see all 22 clubs currently within the league making the required leap over the next 5-10 years to become viable clubs with a much larger average fan-base and a secure financial future ?

If you can put your hand on your heart and say that, under the type of stable and well supported league we would all like to see, there is genuinely room for all 22 current clubs then fine. But I personally cannot see how certain clubs can progress at the pace required off-the-pitch to survive under such a league. And if they wouldn't survive in the type of league that we want and we hope we are moving towards, then in all honesty what is the point in them staying in senior football at all ? A league will only be as strong as its weakest teams - and those teams will hold it back if a significant gulf in fan-base and financial viability opens up between them and everyone else.

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop. :ball:

Great post.

From a LEAGUE point of view it is the future without a doubt. UCD fans are getting themselves into a lather here, needlessly IMO. This WILL be adopted. There is no chance clubs are going to turn down increased prize money and with that a better run league.

Monday night has my mind up. There is no way CHF should be in the league in any way, shape or form. When this is brought in in the summer and IF UEFA licensing is strictly enforced we can get on with having a serious league.

KOH

[John83]

DOOM DOOM DOOM. Good god man, at least we could give it a go. The league is going no where at present. These things have to be tried out.
We had UEFA licencing for the last couple of years. You know what? I fully supported it. I can see how it could have improved the league. I still do and it still can, but it has to be actually implimented, not bloody stretched every year to fit whatever criterion has been missed now.

What's the point of having a new 10 year plan every three years?

[Ronnie]

DCFC Steve - badly run clubs, when? Today, last year? Not right to be castigatinh other clubs for making the same mistakes Derry made in the past.

Talking about crowds and sustainability means nothin. EG Monaco. Or Chiveo in Italy, and some Primera Liga clubs. Barcelone avergae is 10 times some other clubs in the Division.

[John83]

...This WILL be adopted. There is no chance clubs are going to turn down increased prize money and with that a better run league.
I see nothing about a better run league. You're right though. Clubs won't turn down a prize money increase. Regardless of what's tacked on to it.


Monday night has my mind up. There is no way CHF should be in the league in any way, shape or form. When this is brought in in the summer and IF UEFA licensing is strictly enforced we can get on with having a serious league.

KOH
UEFA licencing already would get rid of CHF. As will the auditors, given enough time.

[Magicme]

Ha....yeah give it a go....sure what harm could it do....

Wake up! Giving it a go would mean that at least 10 clubs would disappear coz they would not be financially viable in a lesser league with all the glory and sunshine on the "Premiership"

Agh....memo to self: bite ur tongue and just cry

[WeAreRovers]

Fans like you are a disgrace to the Eircom League.

Correction, games like the Dublin City/UCD farce are a disgrace to the eircom league.

Mind you, RTID is a disgrace too. ;)

KOH

[sullanefc]

I'm sick of this "untenable" crap. More clubs from Cork have gone bust than UCD have had managers, but still we're "untenable", smack in the middle of an uncontested (by football) catchment area with a population bigger than Drogheda and Derry stuck together.


Then why don't ye get bigger attendances????? Would a name change help?? Blackrock FC?? Dundrum FC??

[pineapple stu]

Is there a requirement to pass everything - like could a club have a brillliant result in 4 categories and rubbish in 1 and be out of the loop?
No - it's out of 1000 and the top 10/12 get in. I think you still have to "pass" UEFA Licencing though.


The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD[...]type untenable teams will be worried about.
What's a "UCD type untenable team" when it's at home?


Good god man, at least we could give it a go.
Nonsense. You consider the pros and cons of any proposal and make an informed decision on that basis. Pros - none that I can see. Cons - Potential legal action. More mockery of the league. No ideas as to how to actually move the league forward - just saying that it'll be done. There's no solid ideas there at all - it's just waffle. There's no basis to adopt it at all.

There are some interesting ancillary ideas contained in the proposal, incidentally. Setanta Cup play-off, more prize money - things like that. Kind of reminds me of the Simpsons episode where an unpopular bill is paper-clipped onto a really popular bill to get it through.

[pineapple stu]

Then why don't ye get bigger attendances?????
We are getting bigger attendances.

[dcfcsteve]

Always glad to oblige, Steve! Though I'll leave my UCD hat off for once.

The problem with the vision you have is that you talk about it as if it's completely achievable. Is it? I don't konw if it is; certainly not within the time-frame you're talking about. I don't think that's a failing of the league in particular - it's just reality. You currently have two or three clubs who can averag over 2000 a game. Nothing in this proposal indicates how we're suddenly going to have ten clubs averaging 5000 a game. No-one I've talked to - even those who share your optimistic vision - can indicate how this proposal will bring about the changes dreamt of.

The notion of a First Division that's not a wilderness is nice as well. This proposal, however, will kill the First Division. You're talking about comparing the bottom Premier team with the top First Division team and letting the one which scores highest into the Premier (again, this is just going on what I've heard). The Premier Division team will obviously score higher (by definition) and so will stay up. That's no grounds for promoting the First Division in general.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile clubs being for the chop with a vibrant First Division also. If you think clubs such as UCD, Dublin City, Kilkenny, Monaghan, etc are for the chop, you're looking at bringing in 2 or 4 new clubs into the First Division, whom you would expect to get 2000 a game within five years. It's five years since Kildare County came into the league. Prior to that you had the influx of '85 - Derry, Bray, Monaghan, EMFA, Newcastlewest and Cobh. Only Derry of those are getting 2000 a game 20 years on, and arguably wouldn't get it in the First Division these days. So on the one hand, you indicate that certain teams are unsustainable, and on the other hand have a vision of these teams - or teams currently lower than them - getting 2000 within five years.

It's all very well talking starry-eyed about 6000 crowds being a regular event, but you - and everyone else - make no attempt to indicate how this proposal is going to achieve that. My vision instead is of the league being dragged further into the mire by law-suits and legal challenges and becoming even more a thing of public mockery by barstoolers.

I'd obviously love to achieve your vision. But I don't see how this can possibly do it. It's pure pie in the sky, I'm afraid.


I ccept the broad concern behind your post PS. That is, how do we know any of these proposals will actually change anything. The difficulty we have is that we're dealing with human psychology and behaviour - in this instance, the propensity to attend a domestic football match.

Leaving aside the starry-eyed "build it and they will come" approach, there is little that administrators of sport can do and then say 'this will 100% definitely increase attendances - fact' ! They can do stuff that they and/or other people feel will have an impact upon the popularity of their sport, but it is not and never can be such an exact science that they can draw a straight line between what they propose and attendances. If yo accept that then you have one of 2 choices. You either do nothing, for fear of imeprical evidence in a field where one doesn't exist, or you do what you genuinely believe and feel is likely to have the desired impact - but wiithout the hard science to support it.

To bring it back to domestic Irish football specifically. I don't know how long you've been following the game here, but I've been a hard-core EL supporter for 21 years now. Many EL fans have been attending for much, much shorter time-spans. For people who have only been following our game since roughly the millenium, for example, they may not have seen much differnec between the EL now and how it was then. But if you look back 20 years ago, the EL is a dramatically different world. The stadiums are only better in-places, the financial administration is not better, the standard of football is undoubtedly better - but the one obvious area where there's been changes is in attendances.

Back in 1985 when Derry joined the league, there was only one club in the country with a decent fan-base - Shamrock Rovers. Cork City was only one year old at that time, and had very, very few hardcore fans. Bohemians support was noticeably much smaller than it is nowadays, as was Shels. Pat's fans didn't seem to exist. Longford fans could genuinely be counted on one-hand. Bray and Harps fans barely ever reached treble figures. The same is true of Drogheda, Sligo, Waterford.

There are only 3 clubs in the league that have lower attendances now than they did in the 1980's. They are Rovers, Dundalk and Derry (you could alo make a case for Galway as well, but I'm not convinced). All 3 have reasons for their decline in support - Rovers being 20 years in the wilderness, Dundalk being a club in steep decline, and Derry becuase the initial enthusiasm for the team was never going to last.

Therefore, the vast majority of clubs in our league (admittedly, one is quite new) have seen attendances grow over time. Furthermore, most of that growth in fan-bases throughout the league has actually occured in the last 5-10 years (whilst the decline faced by the 3 clubs occured earlier). So my question is this - what specific changes within our league (and there have been many) can anyone point to and say 'that's why Bohs, Shels, Pats, Cork, Drogheda, Harps, Sligo, Longford etc have bigger crowds now than they did 10 or 20 years ago'. I suspect strongly the simple answer is that we can't.

There is no single change/event, or even series of events bar success on the pitch, that can be highlighted to explain the increase in crowds we've had. But we've still undoubtedly had an increase. I suspect the increases have been due to a combination of factors - success on the pitch, facilities, profile etc.

To bring this back to the current FAI proposal. There is little or nothing the FAI can do - and certainly nothing structural - that they can 100% guarantee will increase crowds. There are, however, things they can do which common sense, gut feel and instinct suggest will move the league in a direction in which it is highly likelt to attract more support. Can we draw a straight loine between changes and attendances ? No. But should that therefiore stop us from doing the things that common sense and gut feel suggest are highly likely to have some sort of positive impact ? Certainly not.

[dcfcsteve]

Incidentally Steve, do you want to reply to my comments that the new proposal offers to actual path between now and this brave new world?

Done, my impatient little friend. :) Some of us have work to do.... :p ;)

[sullanefc]

What's a "UCD type untenable team" when it's at home?


A team with few fans, very little chance of increasing their fan base and hence, no future.

Seriously, if UCD are to increase their fanbase in their "massive catchement area", then a name change should be considered.

To further that, the FAI should probably consider dividing Dublin up into regions and give each Dub club a region in which to promote their club and stick to that.

[NY Hoop]

Ha....yeah give it a go....sure what harm could it do....

Wake up! Giving it a go would mean that at least 10 clubs would disappear coz they would not be financially viable in a lesser league with all the glory and sunshine on the "Premiership"

Agh....memo to self: bite ur tongue and just cry

So we stay the same then? Clubs who have gates in the double digits going nowhere. You can have all weather pitches and bars etc but what is the point? Year in year out at the lower end of the first division. No offense and its not personal. We had a game postponed in sligo yeras back so we drove to monaghan to see them versus kilkenny. The attendance was 55. Is this the way forward? No wonder barstoolers laugh at the league after monday.

10 clubs wont disappear.

John83 you see nothing about a better run league? Have you read the document? "From 2007 clubs must sign participation agreement and will operate a cap on players' wages and costs which will be 65 per cent of turnover."

That to me is a potentially better run league. Take the blinkers off and see it for what it is. If UCD go down take it on the chin and you can come back up the following season. I'm saying this fully in the knowledge that we are not guaranteed a place in the top flight next season either.

Name changes do not work.

KOH

[John83]

Just to cut that waffle down to the actual point:

...Can we draw a straight loine between changes and attendances ? No. But should that therefiore stop us from doing the things that common sense and gut feel suggest are highly likely to have some sort of positive impact ? Certainly not.
Your gut feeling better than mine is it?

[pineapple stu]

See, Steve, the problem I have with your post is the fact that you're essentially proposing a system where the current clubs continue in their present leagues, with movement between them being decided on some sort of rotational basis based on who tops one league and props up the other. However, clubs would be regulated by strict adherence to a set of guidelines which calls for all those improvements you've just highlighted to continue on a planned and co-ordinated basis, with penalties for clubs who fail to continue to improve off the field.

Oh my - you've just proposed UEFA Licencing.

What does this proposal contain that wouldn't be achieved by strict adherence to UEFA Licencing? UEFA Licencing is a joke - we know that. So is this. However, if the FAI sat down and made an effort with UEFA Licencing, none of this would be necessary.

I don't see how the FAI can make such a mess of the single-most important thing to happen to our league in years - ever, perhaps - and then expect to be taken seriously when they propose something which is patently nonsense such as the above and which shows absolutely no cause and effect line between the proposal and the vision.

[Magicme]

Totally agree NYHoop that 55 fans is not the way forward but I dont think losing the people who are wholeheartedly committed to developing football in this country by cutting their clubs lose from the eL is the way forward either.

I dont want to get drawn into this and all the above are my own opinions and do not reflect the club or anyone else in the club, but I have to say that I am fearful of the wholesale changes that are proposed and feel that given time Licensing would have sorted a lot out.

Of course u would never get personal NYHoop so u had no reason to excuse urself.

[pineapple stu]

A team with few fans, very little chance of increasing their fan base and hence, no future.
Strikes me as though you've ignored the "untenable" part. If we're not tenable in the Premier Division, you'd want to tell reality that as we embark on our 11th season in the top flight in the last 12 (or so). If we're really badly out of our depth, we'll get relegated on the pitch.


Seriously, if UCD are to increase their fanbase in their "massive catchement area", then a name change should be considered.
Because Bohemians, Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers and St Patrick's Athletic all incorporate their region's name, do they?

[sullanefc]

UCD fans. One question. How do ye propose that attendances are increased and hence lead to a better supported league??

[dcfcsteve]

Just to cut that waffle down to the actual point:

Your gut feeling better than mine is it?

I'm sorry, but on this issue I think it is.

Particularity as the UCD fans on here are generally working themselves into a lather and letting fear for the future of their club understandably colour their judgement. I'm taking what I think is a more objective view - possibly because I have the luxury of doing so as I don't perceiev my club to be at threat.

So now that you've asked - I think it is.

Also - is it coincidence that the only opposition expressed to these plans so far comes from fans of the smallest clubs ?

[pineapple stu]

Our home support has been increasing constantly over the past few years. There's no reason to believe it won't continue that way.

NYHoop - if a club has 55 fans, they rot in the First Division out of harm's way until they can improve it. (Or else they embark on a silly spending spree and go broke in a fairly short time). Monaghan aren't harming anyone where they are. If they get fans, they'll come up. That's their incentive.

[sullanefc]

Changing the name would lessen the connection with the college, which could mean the college cutting off the life support.

Bingo

[NY Hoop]

Sullane name changes dont work. Look at CHF for example. A deluded seery thought that by changing the name of Home Farm he would be in the CL in 5 years:D

5 teams from the capital in the whole league is enough.

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?


KOH

[pineapple stu]

Changing the name would lessen the connection with the college, which could mean the college cutting off the life support.
:rolleyes:

There is no life support from the college. But people will believe whatever suits their own deluded view of things.

[pineapple stu]

I'm sorry, but on this issue I think it is.

Particularity as the UCD fans on here are generally working themselves into a lather and letting fear for the future of their club understandably colour their judgement. I'm taking what I think is a more objective view - possibly because I have the luxury of doing so as I don't perceiev my club to be at threat.

So now that you've asked - I think it is.

Also - is it coincidence that the only opposition expressed to these plans so far comes from fans of the smallest clubs ?
Did you ever meet Jim Roddy? Seriously? If I hadn't met both of yez, I'd swear blind you were the same person. You both have this utter belief - bordering on arrogance - that the league is on the cusp of something huge and it just takes a small tweak to get it right. But when pressed, neither of yez can actually put forward any sort of path from now to your proposal. Yet you both expect to be taken seriously despite this glaring omission. Quite remarkable. And quite frankly, one of Jim Roddy is more than enough without a clone knocking around...!

[Magicme]

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?


KOH

We are a team in the Republic of Ireland so would like to play in the eL. It is something that we could look into but cant see it happening.

[harpskid]

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?

How would they? Clearly you have no experience of intermediate/junior soccer in Donegal.

The USL contains teams from Donegal only and I suspect Monaghan wouldn't be too pleased about having to make rediculous journeys to Keadue Rovers or Glenea United regularly...

It's hell for us and we're in the same county :)

[dcfcsteve]

Our home support has been increasing constantly over the past few years. There's no reason to believe it won't continue that way.

Hang on. How is it a "pipe-dream" to predict that wholesale changes to the facilities, stability and appeal of our league will have a positive impact upon attendances, whilst you sit here and proclaim that you fully expect UCD's attendances to increase in future years for absolutely no stated reason whatsoever ??? That's a massive contradiction PS. You can't have it both ways.

Crowds at UCD may have grown over the last few years, but they have likewise across the league in general. So you can't be selective in using the same evidence to support one viewpoint and then to rubbish another.

Any objective individual would place more faith in the changes proposed by the FAI increasing league attendances over time, than in UCD increasing their attendances all things staying the same. Even if you are working off a very low base.

[pineapple stu]

Hang on. How is it a "pipe-dream" to predict that wholesale changes to the facilities, stability and appeal of our league will have a positive impact upon attendances, whilst you sit here and proclaim that you fully expect UCD's attendances to increase in future years for absolutely no stated reason whatsoever ??? That's a massive contradiction PS. You can't have it both ways.
It's a pipe dream to expect average crowds of 6000 in the Premier in five years, as you put it. It's not a pipe dream to expect UCD's home support to continue its current increasing trend. Rather different pipe-dreams, don't you think?