FAI proposals for future of Eircom League... [Archive] - Page 5

Jerry The Saint

26/05/2006, 5:35 PM

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, too many pages
to trawl through, but why is Niall Quinn one of the people deciding
the criteria to shape the League of Ireland???

I'll field this one, Kent. Quinn's connection to the league is that he was a die-hard Thurles Town supporter in his teens - one of only a handful (literally about 10 people) who went to their away games. Apparently he became disillusioned after their demise. If a system like this had been around at the time Thurles would probably be in the Champions League by now, given their excellent location.

While we're at it, anyone got any information on the other wise men/lady who have been given the job of recreating Irish football in John Delaney's image?

The IAG also include former Irish Sports Council chairman Pat O'Neill, Dublin City manager John Fitzgerald, former international Niall Quinn and FAI Project Manager Helen Raftery.

The Dublin City manager (the one that's not Dermot Keeley:p ) for one could be said to have a conflict of interests over issues such as stadium funding/number of teams in the capital...

Dr.Nightdub

26/05/2006, 6:54 PM

The Dublin City manager (the one that's not Dermot Keeley) for one could be said to have a conflict of interests over issues such as stadium funding/number of teams in the capital...

No conflict of interest Jerry...Catherine Byrne is the Lord Mayor of Dublin and she's made approving noises about what Pats For Richmond are trying to achieve. By virtue of being Lord Mayor, she is also yer man's boss. As Dodge pointed out on the Pats MB, we're also the only club to have stated a preference for staying in the Dublin City Council area - which he's the boss of. Cool. :cool:

Now, stand back and watch all the culchies, SDCCers and Fingal CCers shrieking hysterically about Pats having the political fix in. :D

PS: WAR, you'd want to start reading our MB a bit more assiduously mate. All the Mulvey stuff (including what's gonna happen to his % ownership) has been clarified with following the most recent PFR public meeting. One CRO document does not a summer make! ;)

Dr.Nightdub

26/05/2006, 6:59 PM

BTW, one of our club officials showed me a spreadsheet showing the rankings based on the previous seasons' sporting criteria - the 30% bit and the only one that can be determined objectively at this stage. I'm nearly sure it came out from the FAI but maybe he did it himself.

Of the total 1000 points that this whole process will use, there's only these 300 available at this stage.

Shels are top with the full 300. Longford are next, can't remember how many points, but I'd say it's driven by cup performances. We're 7th, on 240. Also ahead of us are Cork, Derry, Drogheda and Bohs, can't remember how many points or in what order. Immediately after us are Rovers on 230, then Waterford, then UCD.

After them, it's all just a blur of mediocrity. :D

thejollyrodger

26/05/2006, 9:00 PM

I HATE THE NAME PRIEMERSHIP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why cant we have a decent name ??

Poor Student

26/05/2006, 9:12 PM

This "A" Championship thingy sounds like the old League of Ireland B Division. That's where UCD competed before stepping up to senior football. It sounds intriguing. What happened to the old B Division?

Also, does anyone think this playoff for the Setanta place is a bit weird?

pineapple stu

26/05/2006, 9:14 PM

Did it become the reserve division and in turn the U-21 league?

crc

26/05/2006, 9:35 PM

Also, does anyone think this playoff for the Setanta place is a bit weird?
I'd forgotton about this point - absolutely ridiculous. The Setanta Cup needs the best teams, and the 4th place should stay with the LC Winners.

CollegeTillIDie

26/05/2006, 10:18 PM

I'd forgotton about this point - absolutely ridiculous. The Setanta Cup needs the best teams, and the 4th place should stay with the LC Winners.
Here here. Apart from anything else it makes teams take the League Cup a bit more seriously. Now that there is no Leinster Senior Cup anymore some clubs in the Eastern Seaboard region had been using the League Cup to be their mickey mouse Cup competition.

Bald Student

27/05/2006, 12:41 AM

Also, there's no particular need to reward the top finisher in the First Division with the playoff as that position already contains a big reward, promotion. If the Setanta place was going to the first division I would have prefered to see a first division shield, or similar.

Red4Eva

27/05/2006, 1:09 AM

i don't think the league cup deserves such a high rating(8) compared to fai cup(10). u only have to look at the attendances for last year's finals to realise that the ratings are wrong. also i think the 1st division setanta cup place is daft, promotion is enough reward&the financial implications of starting your season 4 weeks earlier cud f*ck up a newly promoted club. plus the setanta cup needs the best teams&i don't even think the league cup winner deserves a place cos it's so sh*t as it is. apart from that i'd be willing to go ahead with the plans

Mr A

27/05/2006, 1:36 AM

The Setanta Cup place is there as a carrot to entice the first division clubs to swallow the 10 team league proposal. It's just a bit of sugar-coating really. The first division champions would still have to play the league cup winners to get in anyway and if they manage that then good luck to them. It may be artificial as hell, but it would certainly spice things up and generate a bit of interest.

Raheny Red

27/05/2006, 2:19 AM

Maybe the FAI are letting the Div. 1 champs into the Setanta in order to make sure it is not one sided i.e to make sure it soesn't turn into an ass whooping for some of the IL minnows. The FAI maybe want to show not it won't be all one-sided and thus going on to increase the number of entrants even further :confused: - just a thought I had during the day?! :) :o

mypost

27/05/2006, 4:18 AM

the point remains that Waterford are abysmal and are pretty much guaranteed a place in the P*********p next year.

They could go the rest of the season without picking up an extra point (and I don't fancy their chances against Douglas Hall either) and yet still deny Rovers, Limerick or Galway etc a place in the shiny new Smart Telecom How's Your Father Niall Quinn's Disco Pants Elite Premier League.

It should be pointed out, that at the moment, the current promotion/relegation set-up for this season still stands. Even IF the proposals are accepted, there will still be promotion/relegation at the end of this season in some form, so teams will have to do enough on the pitch this season to give themselves more chance of making the cut to play in the top division next year.

CollegeTillIDie

27/05/2006, 7:23 AM

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, too many pages
to trawl through, but why is Niall Quinn one of the people deciding
the criteria to shape the League of Ireland???

Surely if he was that bothered he'd invest more into football here
than buying Sunderland

Post of the month in my opinion.

CollegeTillIDie

27/05/2006, 7:32 AM

By the way how are the FAI going to fund this extra money?
They have not had a major injection of cash that I have heard of over and above State funding. The Republic of Ireland have not qualified for a major adult level tournament since 2002, and this last one we didn't even have the cash cow of a money spinning two leg play off to fall back on.

thejollyrodger

27/05/2006, 10:11 AM

The FAI are renewing some advertisments. One is ending with FIAT but I forget the name of the other one. There is supposed to be a lot of money invovled and they are probably getting it from there.

A couple of million euro is peanuts for the FAI. I think they have revenue of €30million.

I think the FAI should have come up with a unique name for the league and not just copying the English league.

Partizan

27/05/2006, 11:42 AM

By the way, does anyone not think that any system that could save this season's Waterford team is a farce?

Your hysterical shrieking on this thread too is just as farcical.

Btw, by the end of the season we will have 3000 covered seats in place (with provision for more development behind the country goal), new toilets, turnstiles and 2 all weather pitches. The Management Committee is doing a great job off the pitch and with big fundraisers in place for the summer, we should be financially sound.

Plus our league record in the last 5 years has been decent.

Poor Student

27/05/2006, 11:46 AM

Your hysterical shrieking on this thread too is just as farcical.

Where?:confused:

Btw, by the end of the season we will have 3000 covered seats in place (with provision for more development behind the country goal), new toilets, turnstiles and 2 all weather pitches. The Management Committee is doing a great job off the pitch and with big fundraisers in place for the summer, we should be financially sound.

Plus our league record in the last 5 years has been decent.

You're missing my point. The fact that these things can help a team that has failed to win a single league game after the first round of fixtures is indicative of all that is wrong with this new plan. I know it's a bit early to write off your season, but should your terrible form continue this new proposal seems like it could actually save you from deserved relegation.

Breifne

27/05/2006, 12:09 PM

Okay, try and bear with me, i've done up a bit of a spreadsheet (which you can get if you mail or pm me, i'll drop it back to you).

Here goes.

2001-2002 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Total
Athlone Town 4 1 0 0 5
Bohemians 19 8 4 1.5 32.5
Bray Wanderers 15 3 0 0 18
Cobh Ramblers 3 2 1 0 6
Cork City 17 1 2 0.5 20.5
Derry City 18 6 6 0 30
Drogheda United 14 1 1 0 16
Dublin City 8 2 1 0 11
Dundalk 11 10 0 0 21
Finn Harps 10 3 1 0 14
Galway United 12 1 1 0 14
Kildare County 0 0 0 0 0
Kilkenny City 6 2 0 0 8
Limerick 2 2 8 0 12
Longford Town 13 1 2 0.5 16.5
Monaghan United 9 2 0 0 11
Shamrock Rovers 21 6 4 0 31
Shelbourne 22 2 1 0 25
Sligo Rovers 5 3 1 0 9
St. Patricks Athletic 20 1 2 0 23
UCD 16 3 1 0 20
Waterford United 7 1 2 0 10

2002-2003 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Total
Athlone Town 2 1 0 0 3
Bohemians 22 6 0 0 28
Bray Wanderers 11 3 0 0 14
Cobh Ramblers 9 2 0 0 11
Cork City 19 6 0 0 25
Derry City 15 10 0 0 25
Drogheda United 13 1 0 0 14
Dublin City 6 1 0 0 7
Dundalk 4 1 0 0 5
Finn Harps 10 3 0 0 13
Galway United 12 1 0 0 13
Kildare County 8 1 0 0 9
Kilkenny City 1 3 0 0 4
Limerick 3 1 0 0 4
Longford Town 18 2 0 0 20
Monaghan United 5 2 0 0 7
Shamrock Rovers 20 8 0 0 28
Shelbourne 21 2 0 0.5 23.5
Sligo Rovers 7 2 0 0 9
St. Patricks Athletic 16 3 0 2 21
UCD 17 2 0 0 19
Waterford United 14 2 0 0 16

2003 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Total
Athlone Town 4 1 1 0 6
Bohemians 21 6 2 1 30
Bray Wanderers 12 2 1 0 15
Cobh Ramblers 5 1 1 0 7
Cork City 20 1 4 0 25
Derry City 11 2 4 0 17
Drogheda United 15 3 1 0 19
Dublin City 10 2 1 0 13
Dundalk 3 1 1 0 5
Finn Harps 10 1 1 0 12
Galway United 6 6 1 0 13
Kildare County 8 3 1 0 12
Kilkenny City 1 1 1 0 3
Limerick 9 2 1 0 12
Longford Town 19 10 6 0 35
Monaghan United 2 1 1 0 4
Shamrock Rovers 16 1 2 2 21
Shelbourne 22 2 1 0 25
Sligo Rovers 7 3 2 0 12
St. Patricks Athletic 18 8 8 0 34
UCD 11 2 1 0 14
Waterford United 17 3 2 0 22

2004 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Total
Athlone Town 4 4 1 0 9
Bohemians 20 2 6 0.5 28.5
Bray Wanderers 11 1 1 0 13
Cobh Ramblers 5 2 1 0 8
Cork City 21 1 2 4 28
Derry City 16 6 1 0 23
Drogheda United 19 6 1 0 26
Dublin City 10 1 2 0 13
Dundalk 7 1 1 0 9
Finn Harps 13 1 4 0 18
Galway United 8 1 1 0 10
Kildare County 9 4 1 0 14
Kilkenny City 2 2 1 0 5
Limerick 1 1 4 0 6
Longford Town 17 10 8 0 35
Monaghan United 3 2 1 0 6
Shamrock Rovers 14 2 1 0 17
Shelbourne 22 2 1 3 28
Sligo Rovers 6 1 2 0 9
St. Patricks Athletic 15 2 1 0 18
UCD 12 4 2 0 18
Waterford United 18 8 1 0 27

2005 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Total
Athlone Town 1 1 0 0 2
Bohemians 17 3 1 1 22
Bray Wanderers 16 6 0 0 22
Cobh Ramblers 8 1 1 0 10
Cork City 22 8 2 2 34
Derry City 21 6 8 0 35
Drogheda United 19 10 2 0 31
Dublin City 11 1 0 0 12
Dundalk 5 2 0 0 7
Finn Harps 9 2 0 0 11
Galway United 6 1 1 0 8
Kildare County 3 2 1 0 6
Kilkenny City 7 1 0 0 8
Limerick 4 1 0 0 5
Longford Town 18 2 4 1 25
Monaghan United 2 1 1 0 4
Shamrock Rovers 10 3 0 0 13
Shelbourne 20 1 4 2.5 27.5
Sligo Rovers 12 3 1 0 16
St. Patricks Athletic 13 2 2 0 17
UCD 14 3 6 0 23
Waterford United 15 1 2 0 18

2001-2005 Yearly Totals Total Pts
Athlone Town 5 3 6 9 2 25 90
Bohemians 32.5 28 30 28.5 22 141 300
Bray Wanderers 18 14 15 13 22 82 200
Cobh Ramblers 6 11 7 8 10 42 140
Cork City 20.5 25 25 28 34 132.5 290
Derry City 30 25 17 23 35 130 270
Drogheda United 16 14 19 26 31 106 230
Dublin City 11 7 13 13 12 56 170
Dundalk 21 5 5 9 7 47 150
Finn Harps 14 13 12 18 11 68 190
Galway United 14 13 13 10 8 58 180
Kildare County 0 9 12 14 6 41 130
Kilkenny City 8 4 3 5 8 28 100
Limerick 12 4 12 6 5 39 120
Longford Town 16.5 20 35 35 25 131.5 280
Monaghan United 11 7 4 6 4 32 110
Shamrock Rovers 31 28 21 17 13 110 240
Shelbourne 25 23.5 25 28 27.5 129 260
Sligo Rovers 9 9 12 9 16 55 160
St. Patricks Athletic 23 21 34 18 17 113 250
UCD 20 19 14 18 23 94 220
Waterford United 10 16 22 27 18 93 210

Breifne

27/05/2006, 12:14 PM

In estimating this years figures I have put in the accurate figures for any clubs whose interest in this years League or FAI cups has finished. The remainder have been given an average score (LC - Semi Finalists & FAI Cup - Quarter Finalists). League points are issued as it stands today.
European Qualifiers have been issued with 2 points (2 wins or 1 win & 2 draws). You can adjust these figures depending on expected success.

Obviously these will change depending on results from now to the end of the season.

2006 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Ttl Pts
Athlone Town 6 3 0 0 9 115
Bohemians 16 3 4 0 23 180
Bray Wanderers 10 3 0 0 13 135
Cobh Ramblers 5 3 4 0 12 125
Cork City 20 1 1 2 24 185
Derry City 21 3 4 2 30 195
Drogheda United 22 3 4 2 31 200
Dublin City 17 3 1 0 21 170
Dundalk 4 3 1 0 8 110
Finn Harps 7 3 4 0 14 140
Galway United 8 1 0 0 9 120
Kildare County 3 3 0 0 6 105
Kilkenny City 2 3 0 0 5 100
Limerick 12 3 4 0 19 160
Longford Town 13 3 1 0 17 145
Monaghan United 1 3 1 0 5 95
Shamrock Rovers 11 3 4 0 18 155
Shelbourne 19 3 4 2 28 190
Sligo Rovers 15 3 1 0 19 165
St. Patricks Ath 18 3 1 0 22 175
UCD 14 3 0 0 17 150
Waterford United 9 3 0 0 12 130

Breifne

27/05/2006, 12:18 PM

These guesstimates would indicate the following scores

06 01-05 Total
Bohemians 180 300 480
Cork City 185 290 475
Derry City 195 270 465
Shelbourne 190 260 450
Drogheda United 200 230 430
St. Patricks Ath 175 250 425
Longford Town 145 280 425
Shamrock Rovers 155 240 395
UCD 150 220 370
Dublin City 170 170 340
Waterford United 130 210 340
Bray Wanderers 135 200 335
--------------------------------------------------------
Finn Harps 140 190 330
Sligo Rovers 165 160 325
Galway United 120 180 300
Limerick 160 120 280
Cobh Ramblers 125 140 265
Dundalk 110 150 260
Kildare County 105 130 235
Athlone Town 115 90 205
Monaghan United 95 110 205
Kilkenny City 100 100 200

Breifne

27/05/2006, 12:37 PM

Bohemians 180 300 480
Kilkenny City 100 100 200

With only 280 points seperating the top teams and the team propping up the foot of the initial league table. it seems kinda scary that the FAI have the authority to award 500 subjectively.

Really shows the truth behind the propaganda. Really the various FAI committees input has almost twice as much influence as the clubs recent on field performance history, and over four times the relevance of the clubs actual finishing position in this years competition.

I actually have little or no problem with the overall suggestion.
Clubs should be looking to improve their facilities
Clubs should be looking to develop players through their own youth development programmes.
Clubs should be looking to improve their relationship with their local community and in turn increase attendances
Clubs should be forced to run their finances in a fit way, if they show no desire to heed advice. Rules and sanctions must be employed.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this.

This season's final table should have a relevance,
Cups should not be considered though, teams getting an advantage because of a favourable cup draw four or five years ago is absolute madness, even considering cups for this season where a number of clubs are already out of the competition after fielding weaken sides not realising the significance of that decision.
The expanded playoff idea is good, more teams involved. they should have included the fourth place finishers in my opinion also. (back to the way it was).
10 teams in the premier division is a good idea, the talent will be concentrated in 10 clubs as opposed to 12, Waterford and Bray are examples of that this season. Finn Harps last year (no offence to any of the clubs - again back to the way it used to be)
Pure Under-20 League is fantastic, no reserves coming in and depriving proper players of football at their own level. A Championship is re-instated and deservedly so.
Prize money increase is good, but still insufficient
Setanta Cup playoff for first division not a bad idea, good financial incentive as well as promotion, also will help to bridge the financial gap, extra €30,000 plus tv money for newly promoted club.

My only problem with the entire process is that fact that although the FAI are trying to paint the picture of a (50/50) on-field / off-field balance. Its closer to a three way split (20/30/50) current on-field / historic on-field / off-field balance.

When you consider that the current on-field balance isn't even a full 200 point swing and the historic isn't a full 300 point swing, it becomes more like a 105 / 210 / 500 (13% / 26% / 61%) split.

Of that breakdown, 26% is already decided, and can not be changed. 61% is at the whim of an FAI appointed inspector. 13% of the remainder is based on the clubs performance, and given that some clubs are already out of both cup competitions and not in europe, and may not even be in the premier division, their chances of gaining any meaningful points are greatly hampered.

For example: Under this scheme, should Dublin City have been considered as sixth place and a third round exit from the FAI cup, lets say for arguements sake that DC go on to win the FAI cup and finish third in the league (highly unlikely, but go with me). They would actually recieve a total of 195 points for this season, giving them an extra 25 points. So if the club were to go on a fantastic run over the next few months and perform such heroics. They would benifit by a total of 2.5% in this scheme. Now consider your clubs finish to the season.

alternatively, if DC fade away, lose to Monaghan tonight, and end up tenth in the table, the significance is as follows: We drop 25 points. so if the remainder of the season has a possible 50 point swing, it basically means that on the field of play a club has approximately 5% control over its destiny. be worrying to be honest.

Also there is mention of using historic (last 2 years) attendance figures as part of the criteria. UCD, Finn Harps, Bray, Dublin City, Sligo Rovers have all spent time in the first division in that period.

The whole thing is not looking so FAIR now is it???

I personally think they should bring in all the little extra initiatives they are talking about, but the selection of which teams make the grade for the 12 team premier division needs to be decided on where clubs finish this season. The top ten or eleven sides along with the top one or two in the first division must be in the top flight next season. Anything else is an absolute disgrace.

Partizan

27/05/2006, 1:43 PM

You're missing my point. The fact that these things can help a team that has failed to win a single league game after the first round of fixtures is indicative of all that is wrong with this new plan. I know it's a bit early to write off your season, but should your terrible form continue this new proposal seems like it could actually save you from deserved relegation.

Look, if you go down do as one Rovers fan here said, take it on the chin and come back up. I think the proposals are perhaps the only concrete, professional and forward thinking plan that the FAI has ever dreamed up regarding the development of senior football in this country (no smart comments please). if this is done right, this could totally revolutionise the league from top to bottom. I'm in favour of the proposals and if Waterford are in line for the chop then so be it. I will not throw a big hissy fit and cry foul. Why because this is better for the League and the development of football in general even if it is at the expense of Waterford. If we go down, we go down full stop. We will come back as we have done before.

Right now UCD need to get their house in order as do many other Clubs including us. A couple of years sabbatical in the First Division might be what we need but you have to say that Waterford have a helluva lot more going for them than UCD in terms of infrastructure, marketablility and catchment area. UCD's future in the League IMO is guaranteed. They have and will continue to offer alot to football. However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

Breifne

27/05/2006, 2:12 PM

However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

No Ground: Dublin City don't own a ground true, but they have an arrangement with Bohemians, in much the same way as Waterford, Cork City, Limerick, Derry, Shamrock Rovers, etc have. DC rent a pitch from someone else. That it happens to be one of the best grounds in the country is actually a bonus.

No Support: Small yes. Not Nothing. Its small but its getting bigger progresively. probably not quickly enough for some, but significantly larger than even three or four years ago.

No potential: I disagree completly with that, every club in the country has potential. look at Wigan in england, small town huge threat from various local clubs and other sports, managed to do very well in the premiership this season. Any club can do it. DC just manage to do it on a smaller budget and with little support in numbers. They should be complemented for keeping it afloat not chastised.

No one will be getting the boot altogether, with an extra league below the first division, we will be increasing the league and looking to recruit more teams, not remove existing ones.

Poor Student

27/05/2006, 3:34 PM

Look, if you go down do as one Rovers fan here said, take it on the chin and come back up.

Partizan, there's no reason why we should have to do that. If we finish bottom then I'd take it on the chin without a complaint, otherwise I will have greivances. A relegation is damaging to a club, it reduces attendances, media exposure and potential to raise funds. No one should have to arbitrarily take it on the chin.

I think the proposals are perhaps the only concrete, professional and forward thinking plan that the FAI has ever dreamed up regarding the development of senior football in this country (no smart comments please). if this is done right, this could totally revolutionise the league from top to bottom.

What's so revolutionary about it? The added prize money? The wage cap? The name change? The convoluted formula is not required to introduce any of that. The league will benefit most from having its best 10 or 12 (whatever number you want) football teams in the top flight. If you want to set minimum standards then do so and give time for these standards to be met.

I'm in favour of the proposals and if Waterford are in line for the chop then so be it. I will not throw a big hissy fit and cry foul. Why because this is better for the League and the development of football in general even if it is at the expense of Waterford. If we go down, we go down full stop. We will come back as we have done before.

This is football, and I will accept a footballing relegation and get on with it if it happens but I can't just stoicly accept being relegated under a complicated and subjective formula. Again, I fail to see how it benefits Irish football.

Right now UCD need to get their house in order as do many other Clubs including us. A couple of years sabbatical in the First Division might be what we need but you have to say that Waterford have a helluva lot more going for them than UCD in terms of infrastructure, marketablility and catchment area. UCD's future in the League IMO is guaranteed.

We could always do with improvement, but standards introduced to trigger this improvement cannot be introduced mid season without us having any time to meet such criteria and some of the criteria like marketability and catchment area is too subjective to be on the table with such high consequences at stake. Waterford do have more going for them in UCD in those aspects, but football is full of teams of varying fanbases, stadiums, resources, catchment areas etc.

They have and will continue to offer alot to football. However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

The only thing I would boot Dublin City out for is their woeful accounts. The major problem I see in Irish football is clubs paying out more money than they take in and I think the salary cap is a great idea.

Dr.Nightdub

27/05/2006, 6:42 PM

A few points:

- Breifne, you left out our two Intertoto wins in 2002-03 (against Rijeka and Gent), though I don't think it'd make a huge difference to the overall scheme of things.

- In general terms, it makes sense to factor in the results of more than just this season - otherwise, there'd be too much temptation on clubs to be completely silly in the hope of achieving a flash-in-the-pan performance for the sake of satisfying the criteria.

- One thing no-one's commented on that is a great idea is the availability of �10k per club for part-funding a football in the community officer. As usual, the funding is inadequate but at least it's a step in the right direction. From looking at the website of our Cup opponents, Malahide Utd, there's a lot that LoI clubs could learn in this regard from non-League clubs.

- "Marketability" and "catchment area" are not as vague as people are making out. For example, marketability can be measured objectively by referring to attendances and / or the amount of sponsorship revenue generated. Catchment area is an equal no-brainer - the population within a defined radius of the club, with the population of Dublin being divided in six (Bray can sod off though, they've always insisted they're not a Dublin club, now's when that comes back to haunt them :D )

- "Sustainability" is equally capable of being measured objectively. Clubs already have to provide a tax clearance cert for licencing, audited accounts as well (or if it's not there already, then add it), now they're adding the salary cap which makes eminent sense, the only aspect missing is a requirement to provide a three-year financial plan. Any club should be capable of putting that together, it can be referred to some kind of independent assessor to check that it's realistic (yer man Alex whatsit from Stokes Kennedy Crowley that does the Lotto only works two nights a week, I'm sure he'd be available) e.g. that the likes of Kilkenny or Monaghan aren't factoring in the prize money for qualifying for the group stages of the CL. Anything beyond three years is total crystal ball stuff, especially considering the FAI will probably have come up with a whole new scheme to re-relaunch the League by 2009.

Poor Student

27/05/2006, 7:01 PM

- "Marketability" and "catchment area" are not as vague as people are making out. For example, marketability can be measured objectively by referring to attendances and / or the amount of sponsorship revenue generated.

Using what attendance figures? Both Pinepple Stu's and the ones given to the FAI by the clubs are not accurate. On the catchment area aspect, if they used your formula, then it will be heavily biased in favour of Dublin clubs. Also, if you look at the PDF document from the FAI website there is a point in there again about addressing geographical spread again. Not sure how this fits into the formula.

mypost

27/05/2006, 7:53 PM

No Support: Small yes. Not Nothing. Its small but its getting bigger progresively. probably not quickly enough for some, but significantly larger than even three or four years ago.

Home Farm have no support to speak of, end of. They had none in 1986, none in 1996, and none in 2006. All the name changes in the world ain't going to change that situation. 83 people went to your last league game. There will be more fans of Castlebar Celtic at our cup game tomorrow, and they are a non-league side. :eek: A club is soulless without a fan base to call upon. The fact that Home Farm have effectively none, is finally going to count against them under the new proposals.

No potential: every club in the country has potential. look at Wigan in england, small town huge threat from various local clubs and other sports, managed to do very well in the premiership this season. Any club can do it.

Wrong comparison. Wigan may not have as much support as other clubs in the Greater Manchester region, but they are a town in their own right, and have a catchment area to recruit support. Your club's fans are largely made up of player relations, while UCD's support is similiarly made up of college graduates, and not the wider Dublin community as a whole. Now it seems that the FAI are finally going to do something about that situation, for the long-term benefit of the league.

Poor Student

27/05/2006, 7:57 PM

Your club's fans are largely made up of player relations, while UCD's support is similiarly made up of college graduates, and not the wider Dublin community as a whole.

Says who?:confused:

pete

27/05/2006, 9:01 PM

I think the FAI criteria are a failure. They have failed to construct in advance a criteria that would remove Home Farm & UCD from the Premier. Its not difficult - pick the top 12 clubs & construct the criteria to get them into the Premier.

:rolleyes:

Poor Student

27/05/2006, 9:03 PM

They have failed to construct in advance a criteria that would remove Home Farm & UCD from the Premier.

You're messing, right?

Roverstillidie

27/05/2006, 9:38 PM

Correction, games like the Dublin City/UCD farce are a disgrace to the eircom league.

Mind you, RTID is a disgrace too. ;)

KOH

oi, you have to spend about 10 hours on a coach with me tomorrow, so watch it ;)

the reality is that league clubs (most noticibly mine) have been run shambolically for years and the FAI are finally doing something about it.

why should galway do everything right in terms of corporate structure, buiding a half decent stadium etc languish in div 1 while CHF make no effort to run their affairs properly and get a ground, spending 150% of their budget on wages, be above them? this is a leveller that will reward good behaviour over the past 5 years.

im broadly for it and even more deeply happy we removed mcliar last year now

sligoman

27/05/2006, 11:14 PM

The main thing bugging me is that the new league is going to be called the "eircom Premiership":rolleyes:. Hardly original and it's not going to make a difference to the barstoolers...

DmanDmythDledge

27/05/2006, 11:29 PM

Poor Student

28/05/2006, 10:23 AM

why should galway do everything right in terms of corporate structure, buiding a half decent stadium etc languish in div 1 while CHF make no effort to run their affairs properly and get a ground, spending 150% of their budget on wages, be above them? this is a leveller that will reward good behaviour over the past 5 years.

I agree with you, however the formula doesn't really seem engineered towards addressing this. It doesn't seem to take financing and expenditure into account when picking the clubs for the inagural Premiership.

dcfcsteve

28/05/2006, 12:09 PM

The main thing bugging me is that the new league is going to be called the "eircom Premiership":rolleyes:. Hardly original and it's not going to make a difference to the barstoolers...

I agree with you Sligoman on the name being cac, but a name alone isn't going to make a jot of difference to the barstoolers anyway.

higgins

28/05/2006, 1:20 PM

DmanDmythDledge

28/05/2006, 1:25 PM

You cant play in the Premiership getting 83/150 people for a home game.
And you can't play in the Premiership if you're not good enough.

I agree that the crowds aren't good enough but there has to be a better way to improve the league rather than kicking out the teams with low attendences for one season.

Poor Student

28/05/2006, 2:18 PM

I think the overall proposal from the FAI is a good one.

Anyone who can argue that a game in the capital city between two Dublin clubs that gets 83-150 people is not a reason for being kicked out of this new Premiership is mad.

The League cant exist with those figures and Im fully behin the 50% off field rules the FAI have outlined.

My only concern is that they may not be fair in their distribution of the 500 points on offer but overall its a good idea.

You cant play in the Premiership getting 83/150 people for a home game.

UCD can and have survived comfortably on low gates for over two decades now. I don't think Dublin City can, but that's a matter for their board. The figures themselves are irrelevant. If you can manage to survive and put a team on the park that is capable of not getting relegated from the Premier Division then clearly it's no reason to kick someone out. I'd be more worried about a club pushing it so close with the Revenue that they earned themselves a winding up notice in the paper.

higgins

28/05/2006, 2:32 PM

Low attendance alone wont get you kicked out of the league ? I should not have said a crowd of 83 gets you kicked out but a crowd of 83 at your home game is a good indication your not good enough for the Premiership the FAI are trying to implement.

Its a system where you are capable of gaining 1000 points. You could have 0 people at your games and still survive. It makes up a part of the overall criteria for the Premiership Clubs.

Ive said this in another thread but its worth repeating.

Everyone agrees the Club Licence idea is a great one (when implemented correctly and fairly). The Club Licence does not take into account your final league position does it? Clubs can be booted out of the Premier on the basis of not meeting seating rules or whatever other rule gets you the boot.

Nobody seems to have a problem with that ?

I was a little worried that the decision would be taken behind closed doors and the elite group announced at some press conference but I have to say Im impressed so far with the details of how the 1000 points are made up.

The 50% off field points will come down to a matter of opinion by this board but as long as they are fair in their approach I dont see why any club can complain. They do have the 500 points broken down a little so it should be fairly transparent why clubs didnt get the required points and the FAI cant hide on why they refused clubs entry.

Also it was said even if you are out of the initial 12 teams you have the option of promotion at the end of the next season and have that year to put in place things like A League teams and other aspects that will mean your are able to meet the criteria set down by the FAI.

I really think Clubs should try and gain as many points as possible over the coming months and not continue to moan as t why they cant meet x y and z.

If you dont aim for anything you wont get anywhere.

OneRedArmy

28/05/2006, 2:32 PM

I'm not surprised at the UCD fans being most vocal about this issue, if I supported them I'd probably be saying the same thing.

BUT to focus on one of the non-sporting criteria, PS and some of the others have eloquently tried to state that the shouldn't need a bigger ground than their support demands.

However, we had an example within the last 12 months of how this is patently not the case.

The League Cup final was held in Belfield and was, to be frank, a joke. Attendence was around 2,000 and the majority of fans were forced to stand, with no terracing, other than a grass bank, and no cover.

Those who were able to get into the stand brought their rosary beads as the wooden beams bounced up and down under the fans. How this stand gets Health and Safety approval I don't know.

If UCD were to attract a similar crowd again, the planned facilities for the Bowl would not suffice for a similar attendence, never mind a growing attendance.

Your views are based on the premise that domestic football is perpetually doomed to be a small time minority interest.

Why should forward thinking clubs be held back by your lack of ambition?

I'm glad some people are willing to try, and fail if necessary, rather than not try at all.

UCD's success is admirable, but it is contingent on the rest of the League not growing, as UCD as a club clearly don't have the appetite for growth.

By all means support your team and oppose the changes, but at least have the honesty to admit that your team has least to gain from a stronger domestic game.

higgins

28/05/2006, 2:44 PM

UCD can and have survived comfortably on low gates for over two decades now. I don't think Dublin City can, but that's a matter for their board. The figures themselves are irrelevant. If you can manage to survive and put a team on the park that is capable of not getting relegated from the Premier Division then clearly it's no reason to kick someone out. I'd be more worried about a club pushing it so close with the Revenue that they earned themselves a winding up notice in the paper.

It may have escaped your attention but the FAI are trying to set about changing the view of the barstoolers.

It is hoped (this is my feeling from what they say) that with a set of clubs in the Premiership all capable of attracting bigger crowds that something will snowball and maybe, just maybe!, that we will see a league where grounds have decent gates and the publics opinion that nobody goes to the games will be changed. If you have a set of teams in the premiership that are capable of attracting good crowds through proper marketing then why are you against it?

Your crowd of a few 100 might be good enough for you to survive but its damaging to the EL as a whole and despite the good work of other clubs in the league it appears that some teams are happy enough just to survive and dont have any real ambition.

Its all about changing opinions and I dont think 2 Dublin teams playing in Dublin to a crowd of 83 is acceptable.

Poor Student

28/05/2006, 2:46 PM

BUT to focus on one of the non-sporting criteria, PS and some of the others have eloquently tried to state that the shouldn't need a bigger ground than their support demands.

However, we had an example within the last 12 months of how this is patently not the case.

The League Cup final was held in Belfield and was, to be frank, a joke. Attendence was around 2,000 and the majority of fans were forced to stand, with no terracing, other than a grass bank, and no cover.

Those who were able to get into the stand brought their rosary beads as the wooden beams bounced up and down under the fans. How this stand gets Health and Safety approval I don't know.

The eL set out the rules for this competition full well knowing the state of the ground of all the eL clubs. It was set that the a coin toss between the finalists would determine where the venue was held. No preconditions about stadium standards were set out before hand. We were more than entitled to host the final and I think we did a fine job. There was seated capacity for about 1,000 and not everyone even bothered to pay the extra few euro to avail of it.

If UCD were to attract a similar crowd again, the planned facilities for the Bowl would not suffice for a similar attendence, never mind a growing attendance.

We're designing the Bowl to meet the standards set out by the UEFA licencing. What more can we do? A League Cup final is about the one anomalous occasion where we'll struggle to host the occasion. If Derry got into the CL, the Brandywell would prove more than inadequate. Look at Shels, they could potentially draw over 20,000 for a CL tie. Should they go out and build a 20k seater for that one rare occasion?

Your views are based on the premise that domestic football is perpetually doomed to be a small time minority interest.

I believe that to be true to a certain extent.

Why should forward thinking clubs be held back by your lack of ambition?

What you call lack of ambition I call pragmatism.

I'm glad some people are willing to try, and fail if necessary, rather than not try at all.

I'm not. I've chatted to Jim Roddy about this before and while I found his enthusiasm and desire to push domestic football forward most admirable and infectous, I also found his stated goals to be unrealistic and he seemed to lack a good explanation as to how to get there.

UCD's success is admirable, but it is contingent on the rest of the League not growing, as UCD as a club clearly don't have the appetite for growth.

I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships and a positively viewed league by the Irish public would benefit ourselves too. I don't feel there's as much room for growth as others believe and I fail to see how any of this goes towards achieving significant growth.

By all means support your team and oppose the changes, but at least have the honesty to admit that your team has least to gain from a stronger domestic game.

UCD has as much to gain as anyone from a stronger domestic game, but I don't see how some of these changes help.

Poor Student

28/05/2006, 2:55 PM

It may have escaped your attention but the FAI are trying to set about changing the view of the barstoolers.

That may be so, but I see little in the plan that's going to do so.

It is hoped (this is my feeling from what they say) that with a set of clubs in the Premiership all capable of attracting bigger crowds that something will snowball and maybe, just maybe!, that we will see a league where grounds have decent gates and the publics opinion that nobody goes to the games will be changed. If you have a set of teams in the premiership that are capable of attracting good crowds through proper marketing then why are you against it?

Do you realise that most of the teams currently capable of attracting the biggest crowds are already in the Premier Division? Replacing say Dublin City and UCD with Shamrock Rovers and Limerick is not going to significantly change the average crowds or the league all that much. You make it sound like some radical groundbreaking change. The teams towards the lower end of the table are still going to get poor attendances and the teams towards the top better attendances. The difference of a few hundred in the average attendance of the league and a couple of bigger gates for every club will not be enough to get anyone off their barstool.

Your crowd of a few 100 might be good enough for you to survive but its damaging to the EL as a whole and despite the good work of other clubs in the league it appears that some teams are happy enough just to survive and dont have any real ambition.

It's pragmatism and reality. All leagues have teams of varying sizes and capabilities. Not all 92 clubs in the English league can win the Premiership and not all 22 clubs in Ireland can win the Premier Division. That's reality. We're the only set of fans who treat clubs not wanting to win everything beyond their scope as an offence.

Its all about changing opinions and I dont think 2 Dublin teams playing in Dublin to a crowd of 83 is acceptable.

Two Dublin clubs playing to a crowd of about 2000 is hardly acceptable either. It's a league wide problem, not a UCD or Dublin City problem.

pete

28/05/2006, 3:02 PM

Dublin City only "survive" because they are in Dublin with options to rent grounds & sign players from other teams that got relegated to failed to be promoted. If they were in any other county they would not exist.

Will there be minimum entry criteria to the new Premiership from 2008, minimum facilities?

OneRedArmy

28/05/2006, 3:21 PM

We were more than entitled to host the final and I think we did a fine job. There was seated capacity for about 1,000 and not everyone even bothered to pay the extra few euro to avail of it.First of all the stand sold out 30 mins before kick off.

And having the option of standing on a open grass bank or jostling around a rail at pitch level is unacceptable.

You were entitled to hold the final but your facilities weren't up to it.

And UEFA licensing standards are minimum standards. Many League's impose higher standards as the FAI is planning to.

higgins

28/05/2006, 3:34 PM

Two Dublin clubs playing to a crowd of about 2000 is hardly acceptable either. It's a league wide problem, not a UCD or Dublin City problem.

You have to be joking with that last remark ?
If we all get crowds of 2000 for home games after the changes are made I would be well happy. Certainly the crowd was not as high as it has been in recent seasons but to go slag off a crowd of what I would have put closer to 3000 is dumb. If you cant see the difference between gates of a few hundred and a few thousand then you have no hope of understanding what the FAI wnat from this change.

and your very very wrong saying playing Rovers is little different to playing Dublin City or UCD?

In a Premiership of 10 teams where you get gates of around 2,000 for your 18 home games its a massive difference. When your fans can come to games where you get a decent crowd everytime it becomes a habit for people. Looking at fixtures and not showing up for UCD and Dublin is only serving to further isolate fans from the EL.

Having to play the likes of UCD and Dublin City is holding the rest of the clubs back despite what you think.

I will have to end this debate now as its clear to me your fighting your UCD corner and your not looking at the overall picture. Good luck to you in trying to stand in the way of anything that would improve the league we all watch but I hope the FAI win out.

Did say what more could you do but to aim for the minimum standards of the 1,500 seats ???
Its that attitude that holds your club back....

This shake up cant come soon enough for me.

Poor Student

28/05/2006, 4:17 PM

First of all the stand sold out 30 mins before kick off.

People chose not to take their seats then. There were empty seats.

And having the option of standing on a open grass bank or jostling around a rail at pitch level is unacceptable.

You were entitled to hold the final but your facilities weren't up to it.

And UEFA licensing standards are minimum standards. Many League's impose higher standards as the FAI is planning to.

No standards were set out in the League Cup rules. How else do you think we got the final? We were entitled to as we won the coin toss. UEFA licencing standards had nothing to do with the League Cup. Now look, I don't pretend our ground is great, but we are looking to address the matter. We have sought planning application to upgrade the Belfield Bowl and hope to have it done in time for next season. There's not a lot more we can do at this moment in time.

You have to be joking with that last remark ?
If we all get crowds of 2000 for home games after the changes are made I would be well happy. Certainly the crowd was not as high as it has been in recent seasons but to go slag off a crowd of what I would have put closer to 3000 is dumb. If you cant see the difference between gates of a few hundred and a few thousand then you have no hope of understanding what the FAI wnat from this change.

I am not slagging off the crowd, I am simply saying all the crowds between Dublin clubs are poor. There's something hugely wrong here and shuffling a few clubs around and changing a name will not fix it. Indeed, I don't think it can ever be fixed barring Abramovich like investment into all clubs. We can make a small positive difference, yes, but at what price? Going against fundemental sporting principles? The EPL could put the likes of Leeds into the Premiership and drop Wigan and you can guarantee that attendances will rise. The SPL could put Dundee into the SPL in place of Inverness and attendances would rise. Sure, we can do the same, but that's not what football is about.

nd your very very wrong saying playing Rovers is little different to playing Dublin City or UCD?

On the night you'll have a bigger crowd, in the grand scheme of things you'll just have one added bigger gate. You're the one telling me to look at the league as a whole.

I will have to end this debate now as its clear to me your fighting your UCD corner and your not looking at the overall picture. Good luck to you in trying to stand in the way of anything that would improve the league we all watch but I hope the FAI win out.

I support the wage cap, I support a name change if it's positive, I support a pyramid system. I'll support the introduction of proper minimum standards across the board like stadium and structure, that are properly imposed no matter who can meet them. I won't support marketing criteria like crowd sizes, catchment area, geographical spread deciding placings in a league. If you call that progress, so be it, I call it franchise football.

Did say what more could you do but to aim for the minimum standards of the 1,500 seats ???
Its that attitude that holds your club back....

It's called pragmatism. Show me a proper league where all the clubs are challenging for the title. Not being able to recognise your club's limits, that will destroy the league.